Documentation of the figures of extermination

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Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby Oozy_Substance » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:26 pm

A common Denier deception is that "there is no evidence of extermination of Jews in large numbers during WWII".
This is of course a lie, as the evidence available for this extermination is overwhelming.
But I wish to focus on one element of evidence : documents.
Deniers have hard time dealing with documents, because once a denier is presented with a Nazi-issued document that tells about the extermination of Jews it forces him(or her) to either declare the document is forged (and provide evidence for the alleged forgery!) or to find a reasonable explanation to this document that fits the Denier narrative.

Therefore in this thread I wish to see if we can gather all the available documents, issued by the Nazis themselves (but also documents issued by other parties can be of value) that provide information about the figures of the extermination process.

I think that most deniers, if they are not too persistent or obsessed, would give up the chase once they will be presented with documents that document the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Jews, or even millions.

I think the most significant document of this sort is the Korherr Report.
The Korherr Report falsely states that 1,274,166 Jews were "sifted through the camps in General Government" and that 145,301 Jews went "through the camps in the Warthegau" to the way to "The Russian East".

This is a big bone in the denier throat in my opinion, because in response to this document the deniers would have to present evidence to the transportation of 1.45 million Jews from the camps of Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec and Majdanic ("the camps in General Government") and Chelmno ("the camps in Warthegau") to Russia.
The scope of the Korherr Report ends at 31.12.42 and we know that the Reinhard Operation Camps, such as Treblinka, were operational mostly from early-mid 1942.
That leaves a very small time window for deniers to present an alternative narrative where the Nazis evacuated 1.45 million Jews from these camps, to Russia, within a period of a few months, while being in a war with Russia at the same time.
As far as I know deniers cannot even present the name of 1 single person who was sent from the Reinhard Operation Camps to the "Russian East", so naturally they cannot present evidence for the transportation of 1.45 million people.

It will also be difficult for deniers to claim the Korherr Report is forged, because the data in the report appears also in the Höfle Telegram, where the exact figure of 1,274,166 is being broken down and listed separately for Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec and Majdanek.
If the Korherr Report is a forgery, then the Höfle Telegram must be a forgery too. But the Höfle Telegram was discovered in the year 2000 in a British archive, and that doesn't fit the common Denier narrative of "The Soviets faked it all!".

In addition, we have the order by Himmler to Korherr (also mentioned in the HC article I posted above), telling him to remove the words of "Special Treatment" from this exact section in the Korherr Report.

I think this combination of Korherr + Höfle + Himmler's order will get the winds of the sails of most deniers. Claiming forgery is pretty far-fetched and trying to present the Korherr Report as a document which speaks of actual evacuations of Jews that took place from the Reinhard Operation Camps to the Russian East is a pretty impossible task, as there is 0 evidence for that.

So at the bottom line we can tell for certain that the Korherr Report documents the extemrination of 1.45 million Jews.
In addition the report tells of "evacuation" of 633,300 Jews "in the Russian territories incl. the former Baltic countries since the beginning of the Eastern Campaign."
This is also pretty strange, as Korherr says 633,300 Jews were evacuated from Russian territories... to Russian territories. The source for this information, according to Korherr, is the Reichssicherheitshauptamt. The Einsatzgruppen sent their reports to the Reichssicherheitshauptamt, correct me if I am wrong about that. Therefore there is a reason to believe that also here Korherr speaks of extermination and not of evacuation, also because there is no evidence for such evacuation.

Combining the numbers we get 1,274,166 + 145,301 + 633,300 = 2,052,767 exterminated Jews mentioned in the Korherr Report alone.

Take notice that despite that I focused only on these 3 figures, there are many more figures in the Korherr Report. Some of them may speak of extermination as well, if you can bring more details from the report into attention it would be good. In addition Korherr states cases of deaths which I did not take into account here.

Now, after the lengthy text about Korherr and Höfle I wish to get to other documents.

We got of course the Jäger Report report, which states of extermination of 138,272 people, out of whom 136,421 are Jews, on the period between July to November 1941.
I do not know if the figures in the Jäger Report report are included in the Korherr Report, as Korherr states that "it must not be overlooked in this respect that of the deaths of Soviet Russian Jews in the occupied Eastern territories only a part was recorded" (which is odd, because doesn't the reports speak of "evacuations"?).

So I would appreciate if someone would cast some light on this issue, telling if Jäger's figures are included in Korherr's figures or not.

Another document is this, which I saw Dr. Nick Terry posting in another thread.

363211-exekutionen.jpg


I still do not understand this document completely, but I can tell it's a report by the HSSPF on activity in the Bialystok area. During this activity 363,211 Jews were "executed" during a period of 4 months.

Therefore according to this document we can add to the 2,052,767 figure more 363,211, getting the death toll of 2,415,978

Another document is this one, which I took from the thread about the two "great minds", Monstrous and Berg.

BABI YAR REPORT.jpg


Berg tried to claim this document is fake, said something ridiculous about the word "exekutiert" being too much to the right, a thing that can be explained easily by the use of a typewriter, and failed.
Therefore we can add the figure of 33,771 to the count, getting the death toll of 2,449,749.

Another document would be the "97,000 were processed using 3 vans" document. It can be found here.

Yet I read somewhere in HC that they proved that this document speaks of Chelmno. Correct me if I am wrong about this one. Since Chelmno is mentioned the Korherr Report (""the camps in Warthegau") and since this document is from 1942, it is possible that the 97,000 is already included in the Korherr Report. It would be good if anyone could bring more details about it.

More documents that came to my attention are the following documents from Auschwitz.

I think these documents are very important because they inflict yet another critical blow to the Denier narrative. Deniers often complain how it does not make sense the Nazis put so much effort to send Jews from all over Europe to Auschwitz just to kill them while they had the burden of conducting a war in two fronts, against the Allies and Soviets.
But the Denier narrative even makes less sense.
According to these documents, about 80% of the Jews who were sent to Auschwitz were "Specially Accommodated". If the Nazis put the effort to send Jews to Auschwitz just to gain some forced-labor workers, then the deal that they have done is pretty bad, as for every fit worker they brought to Auschwitz they would have had to take care of 4 women and children.
This is extremely not beneficial, and the Denier narrative can easily be negated the same way they negate the Auschwitz gas chambers - the Nazis would never do so while being under the burden of fighting two fronts.

Therefore it's pretty obvious these 3 documents speak of extermination as well. The figures here are 4092, 599 and 498, giving the total of 5193 Jews who were exterminated in Auschwitz in mere 5 days.
I wonder to myself if there are more documents of this nature from Auschwitz or other camps, it would be great if someone can provide further details about it.

So eventually, to sum it all up : we have

Korherr (2,052,767) + Bialystok (363,211) + Babi Yar (33,771) + Auschwitz Documents (5193) giving us the total of 2,454,942

Optional figures, that maybe were already included in Korherr Report are Jäger (136,421) and the gas vans document (97,000), which increase the total by more 233,421, bringing it to 2,688,363.

So I can say there is a documentation of between 2,454,942 to 2,688,363 Jews just in these several documents.
Quite a blow to the common denier statement of "there is no evidence".

If you know any more documents, please post them, as I am a novice, and my knowledge is pretty limited.
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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:59 pm

Oozy, I'm preparing for a long trip so can't sort through this. Off the top of my head, I think you've got at least two double counts. E.g., (a) the 97,000 document, which is from June 42, and Korherr's Chelmno estimate, (b) Korherr's 633,000 which was an estimate, not all in, for killings in the occupied East - which in theory was meant to include the Baltics, which he specified, so incorporates Jäger's report and data in EMs (like Babi Yar) - but reconciling Korherr's 633,000 to individual reports is impossible because Korherr got a lump total which he wrote was partial. I'd have to spend some time with this to figure it out . . .

OTOH the deaths listed in Meldung 51 IIRC wouldn't have been in the Korherr estimate because his relied on RSHA numbers, not HSSPF's.

I highly recommend Appendix B of Hilberg's 3 volumes for your reading pleasure, as Hilberg has worked all this out already :) (I have a PDF if you're interested . . . )
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby Oozy_Substance » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:02 pm

Oh yes, post the PDF please.

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby nickterry » Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:02 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:Oh yes, post the PDF please.


Not on a public forum (copyright, ya know - Pyrrho would have to take down the post).

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:18 pm

Yeah, I can't post it. I sent you a PM, Oozy. One way or another, reading Hilberg's appendix will make it a lot easier to work through all this.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby Denying-History » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:16 pm

One moment, I'll work it out for you in a bit.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby Balsamo » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:35 am

Oozy:

Therefore according to this document we can add to the 2,052,767 figure more 363,211, getting the death toll of 2,415,978


Actually, this meldung is supposed to be counted by the Korherr's report.

OTOH the deaths listed in Meldung 51 IIRC wouldn't have been in the Korherr estimate because his relied on RSHA numbers, not HSSPF's.


Sorry to ask maybe a silly question, but as Korherr said he got the numbers from the RSHA, and that the HSSPF were sending theirs to the RSHA for compilation, why would the HSSPF numbers be excluded from the number compiled by the RSHA and then submitted to Korherr?

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:50 am

Hilberg, vol 3, p 1316

Image
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby nickterry » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:12 am

Balsamo wrote:
Sorry to ask maybe a silly question, but as Korherr said he got the numbers from the RSHA, and that the HSSPF were sending theirs to the RSHA for compilation, why would the HSSPF numbers be excluded from the number compiled by the RSHA and then submitted to Korherr?


Einsatzgruppen bodycounts as of spring 1942, in the Ereignismeldungen, were already too high for the 633,000 figure to include Meldung 51 as a matter of simple mathematics. Ergo no synthesis of Einsatzgruppen and HSSPF bodycounts.

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:28 am

I probably didn't make that clear above, either. In the conclusion of his report, Korherr wrote, "One must not overlook that only a part of the deaths of Soviet Russian Jews in the occupied eastern territories are recorded here . . ."
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby Oozy_Substance » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:12 am

I wish to ask it one more time, about the "Special Accommodated" documentes from Auschwitz.

Are there more documents of this nature other than the 3 documents mentioned in the HC article?

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby Hans » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:28 am

Oozy_Substance wrote:I wish to ask it one more time, about the "Special Accommodated" documentes from Auschwitz.

Are there more documents of this nature other than the 3 documents mentioned in the HC article?


There are a number of daily strength reports from the Birkenau women's camp reporting killings as SB (Sonderbehandlung) for July - December 1944. IIRC, the sum of those is at the order of 3700.

SB.jpg
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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby Hans » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:50 am

And two more telexes from Schwarz:

Telex from Heinrich Schwarz to SS-WVHA of 5 March 1943 on “918 women and children sent to special treatment“ [Blumental, Dokumenty i materiały, volume 1, p. 109, German text]

Telex from Heinrich Schwarz to SS-WVHA of 8 March 1943 on “151 men and 492 women and children were specially treated“ [Blumental, Dokumenty i materiały, volume 1, p. 110]

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ce-on.html

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:54 am

This is my comment so I can follow along.

Carry on.

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby Oozy_Substance » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:45 am

Hans wrote:
Oozy_Substance wrote:I wish to ask it one more time, about the "Special Accommodated" documentes from Auschwitz.

Are there more documents of this nature other than the 3 documents mentioned in the HC article?


There are a number of daily strength reports from the Birkenau women's camp reporting killings as SB (Sonderbehandlung) for July - December 1944. IIRC, the sum of those is at the order of 3700.

SB.jpg


This is interesting. The 3 documents from the HC article mention the extermination of 5193 Jews in mere 5 days while this document tells of 3700 in 5 months (July-December 1944).
Does it make sense? I assume the extermination activity in late 1944 was lower?

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby nickterry » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:37 am

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Hans wrote:
Oozy_Substance wrote:I wish to ask it one more time, about the "Special Accommodated" documentes from Auschwitz.

Are there more documents of this nature other than the 3 documents mentioned in the HC article?


There are a number of daily strength reports from the Birkenau women's camp reporting killings as SB (Sonderbehandlung) for July - December 1944. IIRC, the sum of those is at the order of 3700.

SB.jpg


This is interesting. The 3 documents from the HC article mention the extermination of 5193 Jews in mere 5 days while this document tells of 3700 in 5 months (July-December 1944).
Does it make sense? I assume the extermination activity in late 1944 was lower?



No, the 1944 documents refer only to female registered prisoners selected for special treatment; they say nothing about new arrivals selected on the ramp.

1944 was the peak year for Auschwitz, but there are no equivalent Nazi documents to the 1943 'special accommodation' and 'special treatment' reports that survive.

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby Oozy_Substance » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:14 am

nickterry wrote:
Oozy_Substance wrote:
Hans wrote:
Oozy_Substance wrote:I wish to ask it one more time, about the "Special Accommodated" documentes from Auschwitz.

Are there more documents of this nature other than the 3 documents mentioned in the HC article?


There are a number of daily strength reports from the Birkenau women's camp reporting killings as SB (Sonderbehandlung) for July - December 1944. IIRC, the sum of those is at the order of 3700.

SB.jpg


This is interesting. The 3 documents from the HC article mention the extermination of 5193 Jews in mere 5 days while this document tells of 3700 in 5 months (July-December 1944).
Does it make sense? I assume the extermination activity in late 1944 was lower?



No, the 1944 documents refer only to female registered prisoners selected for special treatment; they say nothing about new arrivals selected on the ramp.

1944 was the peak year for Auschwitz, but there are no equivalent Nazi documents to the 1943 'special accommodation' and 'special treatment' reports that survive.


So the 3 documents mentioned in the HC article are the only known documents of this nature? (Documentation of "Special Accommodation" of thousands of people)

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby nickterry » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:44 pm

Yes.

There are many other documents confirming the arrival of transports of specified sizes, which when contrasted with the so-called 'Smolen list' produce the figures used in the 'Kalendarium' or Auschwitz Chronicle for numbers selected for gassing or work. There are a number of documents relating to the crematoria or other things (such as Zyklon B supply) that use the term 'special treatment' without being connected to specific transports. Only these few documents put things together, in a Venn diagram overlap.

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby Oozy_Substance » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:23 pm

nickterry wrote:Yes.

There are many other documents confirming the arrival of transports of specified sizes, which when contrasted with the so-called 'Smolen list' produce the figures used in the 'Kalendarium' or Auschwitz Chronicle for numbers selected for gassing or work. There are a number of documents relating to the crematoria or other things (such as Zyklon B supply) that use the term 'special treatment' without being connected to specific transports. Only these few documents put things together, in a Venn diagram overlap.


Can you post some of these documents?
I debated some deniers online a few days ago. I was asked at some point how do I know that Auschwitz had over 1 million inmates and not just "a few thousands".
Since I am not too-informed I didn't have a decent response. I mentioned calculations by Franciszek Piper, but I never read them and in fact I don't know what he wrote. :oops:

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby Balsamo » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:00 pm

Hi Oozy, what about only debate on what you know?

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby nickterry » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:29 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Can you post some of these documents?


I don't have enough time to respond to such requests, so no. I am here to chitchat, not as a research assistant.

I would suggest you read Van Pelt's report for the Irving-Lipstadt trial which is accessible at hdot.org, he discusses the numbers issue as well as the documentation available for transports, summarising Franciszek Piper's work as well as Danuta Czech's Kalendarium.

The Yad Vashem documents archive as well as the 'Transports to Extinction' exhibition offer a *lot* of the documents, in German of course. The clues as to what to google are in the preceding sentence.

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:56 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:
nickterry wrote:Yes.

There are many other documents confirming the arrival of transports of specified sizes, which when contrasted with the so-called 'Smolen list' produce the figures used in the 'Kalendarium' or Auschwitz Chronicle for numbers selected for gassing or work. There are a number of documents relating to the crematoria or other things (such as Zyklon B supply) that use the term 'special treatment' without being connected to specific transports. Only these few documents put things together, in a Venn diagram overlap.


Can you post some of these documents?
I debated some deniers online a few days ago. I was asked at some point how do I know that Auschwitz had over 1 million inmates and not just "a few thousands".
Since I am not too-informed I didn't have a decent response. I mentioned calculations by Franciszek Piper, but I never read them and in fact I don't know what he wrote. :oops:


Here, Oozy:
http://holocaust.skeptik.net/documents/vanPeltReport.pdf

That's Van Pelt's report for the Irving Trial.

Holocaust Controversies is also a great resource, they have an entire page devoted to Auschwitz (though I think some of those links may be broken).

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/p/test.html?m=1

Here is a list of transports:

http://holocaustcontroversies.yuku.com/topic/1806/Deportations-to-Auschwitz-1942-to-1944-Long-Form
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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:58 pm

A bit of advice, if you find something on-line, save it. I can't tell you how many times I've found something great only to not save it and not able to find it later.

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby Oozy_Substance » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:44 am

Thanks.
I'll read through the material.

Balsamo wrote:Hi Oozy, what about only debate on what you know?


Not always possible, deniers are always taking you to a long ride which is full of questions about everything.

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby Xcalibur » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:47 am

Oozy_Substance wrote:Thanks.
I'll read through the material.

Balsamo wrote:Hi Oozy, what about only debate on what you know?


Not always possible, deniers are always taking you to a long ride which is full of questions about everything.


The good news is they don't no shite bout it either. :lol:

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue May 16, 2017 10:55 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:I wish to ask it one more time, about the "Special Accommodated" documentes from Auschwitz.

Are there more documents of this nature other than the 3 documents mentioned in the HC article?

I'm not aware of any.

However the "Sonderbehandlung" documents obviously have the same structure and are thus to be interpreted in light of the SA documents.

Indeed, so far the deniers have not doubted the connection. Since they thought they could prove the SA docs meant a literal SA, they "contextualize" the SB docs in the same way:

http://vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/7/1/Faurisson21-72.html

"When we seek an expression which can take account of all these meanings at the same time, we ask ourselves what would be most suitable for Sonderbehandlung: would it not be to isolate? One finds that meaning in gesonderte Unterbringung (isolated stay), an expression often applied to arrivals."

Too bad SA meant murder :D

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed May 17, 2017 7:35 pm

> Therefore we can add the figure of 33,771 to the count, getting the death toll of 2,449,749.

Since this is presumably included in the 633K, why the double count?

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Re: Documentation of the figures of extermination

Postby Aaron Richards » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:51 am

Literally my blog, OP. Just go through it and save any document you deem important.
"...we had the duty towards our Volk (the German people) to kill this Volk (the Jewish people) that wanted to kill us." - Himmler in his 1943 Posen speech reminding any future holocaust denier how absurd their beliefs really are.
I compile rebuttals to popular holocaust denier canards here: http://imgur.com/a/725A7


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