The teeth question

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Aaron Richards
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The teeth question

Postby Aaron Richards » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:53 pm

So on another youtube comment chain I came across a denier who made the usual claim of there having to have been 50 million and more teeth around the camps' killing sites.

I told him teeth do not survive cremation, and he laughed in my face giving me a chemistry lecture about how human teeth are made out of materials the majority of which are composed of enamel and dentin. These materials he went on, are made out of hydroxyapatite. Hydroxyapatite has a melting point of 1670°C, far hotter than any cremation oven temperature at Auschwitz (800-1100°C), never mind the temperature of outdoor cremations. So he continued to remain on his "holohoax ignores laws of phyiscs" position that cremating millions of people should leave behind some tens of millions of human teeth. And the fact that they are a rare find in the AR sites for example is proof positive for him that everything is a hoax.

I pointed him out that bone fragments among cremains can be crushed with a tool as simple as wooden mallets. I showed him photo evidence of at least one bone crushing machine used during Sonderaktion 1005:

Image

He didnt reply to that, just told me to list how many of those machines were in each AR camp and left.

Anyway, I did some more digging regarding at what temperature human teeth are destroyed and came across this:

https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/o ... ins-teeth/


A study conducted by German forensic dentists in 2001 found the following:

After 30 minutes in fires with temperatures of 752 degrees Fahrenheit (400 degrees Celsius) the front teeth are totally destroyed. The molars (the grinding teeth in the back of the mouth) start to crack.
At between 45 and 70 minutes in fires with temperatures between 1832 degrees Fahrenheit (1000 degrees Celsius) and 2012 degrees Fahrenheit (1100 degrees Celsius), all the teeth are totally carbonized.[2]
In a civilian crematorium furnace, a temperature between 1400 to 2100 degrees Fahrenheit (760 to 1150 degrees Celsius) is generated to ensure the disintegration of the remains. Even then some teeth and bones are still intact and are crushed in a machine.[3]
In the mass cremations in the camps it is possible that a few of the sturdier back teeth of the adults might have remained in the ashes along with some larger remnants of bone. However, these teeth would be cracked, weakened or fallen from the jaw and could have been destroyed relatively easily in the bone crushing process. Certainly, the milk teeth of babies and the teeth of children (which made up a large percentage of the victims) would have been largely destroyed in the fire.


Source:

Klaus Rotzscher, Claus Grundmann, Sven Benthaus, “The effects of high temperatures on human teeth and dentures: Conclusions regarding the degree on destruction and the influence of time,” Journal of Dentistry and Oral Medicine, No. 6(1), 2004


So my question is...if the study says temperatures around 1000°C are enough to destroy most teeth, how is it that the fact still remains that the materials teeth are made of have higher melting points?
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Re: The teeth question

Postby Denying-History » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:57 pm

« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

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Re: The teeth question

Postby Angel » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:58 pm

Easy solution ~ go to a funeral home.
Ask them to know the truth about
what happens to a body.
To be or not to be?
To believe or
Not to believe?
To be live or
Not to be live?
To exist or
Not to exist?
What was the question?

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Re: The teeth question

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:17 pm

^ Dafuq is that

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Re: The teeth question

Postby Gord » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:36 pm

Angel wrote:Easy solution ~ go to a funeral home.
Ask them to know the truth about
what happens to a body.

Uh-huh.

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=13441&p=206451#p206451
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=11365&p=158601#p159003
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=11365&start=40#p159419
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Re: The teeth question

Postby Gord » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:47 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:...he laughed in my face giving me a chemistry lecture about how human teeth are made out of materials the majority of which are composed of enamel and dentin. These materials he went on, are made out of hydroxyapatite. Hydroxyapatite has a melting point of 1670°C, far hotter than any cremation oven temperature at Auschwitz (800-1100°C), never mind the temperature of outdoor cremations....

...So my question is...if the study says temperatures around 1000°C are enough to destroy most teeth, how is it that the fact still remains that the materials teeth are made of have higher melting points?

You don't need to melt teeth, you need to destroy them. They can be destroyed by burning, or by exploding in the heat. It varies from cremation to cremation. Sometimes you've got teeth left over, sometimes you don't. Remaining bits of tooth and bone (and other things) are usually ground up afterwards, but in the olden days my friend in the funeral business would occasionally talk about "shaking the box and hearing the teeth rattling around inside".

Also consider the difference between melting and combusting: http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php ... wood-melt/
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Re: The teeth question

Postby blake121666 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:44 am

That picture is of a ball mill (or possibly a trommel) in Janowska (allegedly).

http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... emberg.php

Here's another picture not in the above article:
http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/lc/i ... /69978.jpg

What that thing is and was used for is highly doubtful. Why Janowska and not T-II for instance? You have little evidence that thing is what you claim and plenty of reason to doubt it to be what you claim. Propaganda like that is a dime a dozen for the period.

A picture of what was most likely a 50 year old machine in a camp that is not alleged to have been a "death camp" (at least not nowadays). It's not even alleged for that machine to have been typical for the alleged "death camps" at the time. There's not much you can do with such a picture - even if you do believe to have in fact crushed bones of cremated persons.
Last edited by blake121666 on Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The teeth question

Postby Xcalibur » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:16 am

Okay, Blake it's a ball mill. And the location isn't indicated by the photo. And the belt is missing. And somebody mis-captioned the photo. So what? Please elaborate.

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Re: The teeth question

Postby blake121666 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:19 am

Xcalibur wrote:Okay, Blake it's a ball mill. And the location isn't indicated by the photo. And the belt is missing. And somebody mis-captioned the photo. So what? Please elaborate.


Read my edit. One antique machine in one non-death-camp that allegedly crushed bones isn't really very interesting, now is it?
Last edited by blake121666 on Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The teeth question

Postby Xcalibur » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:21 am

Aside: I really hope not one of these guys ever gets arrested on a felony charge: they'll talk their asses into trouble in 20 seconds.

Now back to the Blake Bone Mill Show.....

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Re: The teeth question

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:41 am

Or to that there was also likely a difference in dental health and strength back then, since nutrition and care can hardly be compared to current stats.

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Re: The teeth question

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:46 am

blake121666 wrote:. . . in a camp that is not alleged to have been a "death camp" (at least not nowadays).

I am not sure what this has to do with anything. Today it is "alleged" that 1000s of Jews perished at Janowska - actually it is "alleged" that 1000s were shot in Piaski ravine near the camp.
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Re: The teeth question

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:47 am

blake121666 wrote:
Xcalibur wrote:Okay, Blake it's a ball mill. And the location isn't indicated by the photo. And the belt is missing. And somebody mis-captioned the photo. So what? Please elaborate.


Read my edit. One antique machine in one non-death-camp that allegedly crushed bones isn't really very interesting, now is it?

Depends what you're interested in, doesn't it?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The teeth question

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:53 am

Q: Wasn't that a mobile machine in the images?


As to stationary death camps, they had slave crews beating (or stomping, as in case of AB) large remnants to smaller bits. Seems to have worked...

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Re: The teeth question

Postby Xcalibur » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:03 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
blake121666 wrote:
Xcalibur wrote:Okay, Blake it's a ball mill. And the location isn't indicated by the photo. And the belt is missing. And somebody mis-captioned the photo. So what? Please elaborate.


Read my edit. One antique machine in one non-death-camp that allegedly crushed bones isn't really very interesting, now is it?

Depends what you're interested in, doesn't it?


Astonishing, really. Sometime old memes with new clients...

So I await the informed reply... Along with Krege and Fish...

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Re: The teeth question

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:04 am

Me? I am waiting to see if we can work in corpse color. What's the over/under?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The teeth question

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:28 am

blake121666 wrote:That picture is of a ball mill (or possibly a trommel) in Janowska (allegedly).

http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... emberg.php

Here's another picture not in the above article:
http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/lc/i ... /69978.jpg

What that thing is and was used for is highly doubtful. Why Janowska and not T-II for instance? You have little evidence that thing is what you claim and plenty of reason to doubt it to be what you claim. Propaganda like that is a dime a dozen for the period.

A picture of what was most likely a 50 year old machine in a camp that is not alleged to have been a "death camp" (at least not nowadays). It's not even alleged for that machine to have been typical for the alleged "death camps" at the time. There's not much you can do with such a picture - even if you do believe to have in fact crushed bones of cremated persons.


In Belzec, numerous locals testified that the Germans confiscated agricultural machines for purposes of sifting ashes and grinding up teeth. Such a machine was used apparently at Chelmno.

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Re: The teeth question

Postby Xcalibur » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:58 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Me? I am waiting to see if we can work in corpse color. What's the over/under?



Your choice of restaurant Philly,.. Soup to nuts.

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Re: The teeth question

Postby blake121666 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:41 pm

By tossing out a picture of an antique ball mill, willy nilly "confiscated" according to Jeff_36, and claiming it was used to crush bones of murdered people, you are accepting the premise that bones need to be crushed and that this was done in this instance with this antique ball mill. The obvious reply to such an argument is the following:

1. A camp such as T-II was a planned "extermination camp" alleged to have murdered 100s of thousands of people.
2. Given that it was thought necessary to crush bones at the much smaller Janowska, was it thought necessary to crush bones at a site like T-II (or Belzec, or Sobibor, ...etc)? And if so, what was the plan to crush those bones? Certainly not a hodge-podge "confiscate local agricultural machines"?

The picture does not address the arguments of the person he is corresponding with in any sufficient manner. I am sure that person he is arguing with is saying something along the lines of "where are the teeth of those murdered in the huge extermination camps - on the premise that they would not be destroyed in the cremation process alleged to have been used"? This picture doesn't really address such an argument; and, in fact, it gives more credence to his argument.

The antique ball mill is a failed response all the way around. Tangential to the argument at best.
Last edited by blake121666 on Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The teeth question

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:43 pm

Xcalibur wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Me? I am waiting to see if we can work in corpse color. What's the over/under?

Your choice of restaurant Philly,.. Soup to nuts.
Something near Rittenhouse Sq . . .

I am really enjoying Braham's book on Hungary. So far, the long chapter on the Hungarian labor service, enrolling large numbers of Jews, is perhaps the most outstanding part. A friggin' labor service in a bunch of non-death-camps that allegedly suffered a few massacres, isn't really very interesting, now is it?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The teeth question

Postby TJrandom » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:10 pm

Back to teeth… Following cremation in Japan – where grinding of residual cremains does not occur, the relatives gather male and female to either side of the firebrick slab, and using long chopsticks jointly select a bone fragment and carefully move it to the urn. Once everyone has participated the crematorium employee moves the remainder along with any residual ash to the urn, carefully using skullcap portions to top-off the rest of what was placed in the urn. This is all a ceremonious and time consuming process, taking 30 minutes or more. The remaining teeth, jaw bone, and a vertebrae will have initially been separated for the closest of relatives to take home, wrapped in a white silk cloth, to be placed in their home family shrines. Our cremains are thus not kept in one place, but rather separated into parts to match the number of surviving closest relatives plus the one for the gravesite.

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Re: The teeth question

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:03 pm

I always love the "well, where did the teeth go???????"

How the hell should I know? It happened over 70 years ago. It's the same with "where did all the ash go???????"

Again, I don't know. Who the hell cares? Would anyone even be able to identify little bits of teeth scattered all over the landscape? Or ash?
The landscape isn't the same due to natural erosion and development. Do deniers think that Poland is where time stopped? I always think it's the most asinine thing deniers bring up.
What is not in dispute is that erosion is bringing up bits of bone. Where do deniers think this is coming from?

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Re: The teeth question

Postby Denying-History » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:27 pm

blake121666 wrote:By tossing out a picture of an antique ball mill, willy nilly "confiscated" according to Jeff_36, and claiming it was used to crush bones of murdered people, you are accepting the premise that bones need to be crushed and that this was done in this instance with this antique ball mill.
Yes because a ball mill is obviously something harmless Blake, especially when one was used for crushing bones at Janowska concentration camp. It was borrowed for the purposes of destroying the evidence as is argued in Robin O'Neil's book on Belzec (which can also be read online). Robin O'Neil's book also states rather clearly that the bone mill acted on a similar principle to a ball mill:

In their efforts to destroy the evidence, in particular any large bone material, the camp command at Belzec sought outside help from the Janowska concentration camp by borrowing their bone crushing machine and an operator, a Hungarian Jew named Szpilke. The machine resembled a cement mixer with heavy iron balls inside the revolving drum; as the drum revolved at high speed, the metal balls crushed the bone material into small fragments.[75] At the base of the bone mill there was a sieve which acted as a filter for the bone material - the fine dust was expelled while larger pieces of still uncrushed bone were retained inside the drum.

[...]

75. Polin, Belzec, 289.


blake121666 wrote:The obvious reply to such an argument is the following:

1. A camp such as T-II was a planned "extermination camp" alleged to have murdered 100s of thousands of people
This depends who you ask, Pressac believes these sites were initially constructed as Transit centers. Though this seems unlikely. Especially considering that human remains shouldn't be found on mass mixed with sand up to 20 feet deep into the ground if it was a transit center.

An early order for materials speaks of a labor camp well after Treblinka 1 was finished. But no one has argued that Treblinka 2 was a labor camp except our local poster David who claimed it was a site for re-priming soviet bullets to be sent to Germans on the front. I don't think this needs further comment.

blake121666 wrote:2. Given that it was thought necessary to crush bones at the much smaller Janowska, was it thought necessary to crush bones at a site like T-II (or Belzec, or Sobibor, ...etc)? And if so, what was the plan to crush those bones? Certainly not a hodge-podge "confiscate local agricultural machines"?
It wasn't thought to be necessary to use it for crushing bones at Janowska. Considering at Janowska it was used for fertilizer, to which extent it worked I am not sure. I personally never bothered to try and learn if crushed bones could be used in such a way, though I have seen bone meal fertilizer at some local stores before. At Belzec the machine was borrowed to crush bones, probably for the simple reason of Sonderaktion 1005. It was an attempt to destroy as much evidence as possible as well one must remember that other techniques were operated in the destruction of bones into fragments and powder.

Lets step back though and think about this for a moment though. A ball mill is not harmless, in-fact for a transit center it brings into question what it may be crushing. The same question is raised from why Chelmno was trying to get their hands on one from the Łódź Ghetto. As "a ball mill is a type of grinder used to grind and blend materials for use in mineral dressing processes, paints, pyrotechnics, ceramics and selective laser sintering." What would this grinder be used for other then human bones?


blake121666 wrote:The picture does not address the arguments of the person he is corresponding with in any sufficient manner. I am sure that person he is arguing with is saying something along the lines of "where are the teeth of those murdered in the huge extermination camps - on the premise that they would not be destroyed in the cremation process alleged to have been used"? This picture doesn't really address such an argument; and, in fact, it gives more credence to his argument.


You know what does explain it Blake?

After 30 minutes in fires with temperatures of 752 degrees Fahrenheit (400 degrees Celsius) the front teeth are totally destroyed. The molars (the grinding teeth in the back of the mouth) start to crack. At between 45 and 70 minutes in fires with temperatures between 1832 degrees Fahrenheit (1000 degrees Celsius) and 2012 degrees Fahrenheit (1100 degrees Celsius), all the teeth are totally carbonized. -Hdot


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3009553/

In most instances, campfire temperatures generally average 1,571 degrees Fahrenheit. The average temperature of a campfire tends to vary based on the size of the campfire, with smaller campfires often producing less heat than larger ones.

https://www.reference.com/sports-active-lifestyle/average-temperature-campfire-4833ec972e24a220#

One must remember that the burning process lasted up to FIVE hours.
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Re: The teeth question

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:31 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Or to that there was also likely a difference in dental health and strength back then, since nutrition and care can hardly be compared to current stats.


Good point! I remember granny's teeth would break when she chewed on steel but ever since they started fluoridating the water supply , I can crush diamonds with my wisdom teeth! (Although I usually swallow them whole and dig them out of my feces and swallow them again) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: The teeth question

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:39 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Or to that there was also likely a difference in dental health and strength back then, since nutrition and care can hardly be compared to current stats.


Good point! I remember granny's teeth would break when she chewed on steel but ever since they started fluoridating the water supply , I can crush diamonds with my wisdom teeth! (Although I usually swallow them whole and dig them out of my feces and swallow them again) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


That's hysterical.

You are....so funny.

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Re: The teeth question

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:50 pm

Mary, before you get all $$ eyed, I first have to explain that until fairly recently and because of its physical properties, gold was the more common metal used for dental work (filling, restoration, you name it) for a long time already before the Nazis enriched themselves quite handsomely on their murderous spoil.

Now was that mainly from the poor dental conditions of their victims, or the high numbers of them?

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Re: The teeth question

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:14 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Good point! I remember granny's teeth would break when she chewed on steel but ever since they started fluoridating the water supply , I can crush diamonds with my wisdom teeth! (Although I usually swallow them whole and dig them out of my feces and swallow them again) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You really are an ignoramus.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The teeth question

Postby Xcalibur » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:54 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Good point! I remember granny's teeth would break when she chewed on steel but ever since they started fluoridating the water supply , I can crush diamonds with my wisdom teeth! (Although I usually swallow them whole and dig them out of my feces and swallow them again) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You really are an ignoramus.


Because they love real scientific discourse on these subjects :roll:

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Re: The teeth question

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:53 pm

Xcalibur wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Good point! I remember granny's teeth would break when she chewed on steel but ever since they started fluoridating the water supply , I can crush diamonds with my wisdom teeth! (Although I usually swallow them whole and dig them out of my feces and swallow them again) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You really are an ignoramus.


Because they love real scientific discourse on these subjects :roll:


... and never are trolling, especially in decent meaningful conversations they happen to get across.
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Re: The teeth question

Postby Angel » Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:11 pm

Gord wrote:
Angel wrote:Easy solution ~ go to a funeral home.
Ask them to know the truth about
what happens to a body.

Uh-huh.

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=13441&p=206451#p206451
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=11365&p=158601#p159003
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=11365&start=40#p159419

So sorry ~ didn't mean to offend you :-)
I haven't been reading much these days.

Interesting food for thought :-)
To be or not to be?
To believe or
Not to believe?
To be live or
Not to be live?
To exist or
Not to exist?
What was the question?

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Gord
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Re: The teeth question

Postby Gord » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:06 am

I wasn't offended, I was concise.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE


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