Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:53 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:How exactly does bee_there claim to know this?

"deep reading" - translation: copypasta - in anti-Semitic BS

Balmoral95 wrote:The only notion my parents "indoctrinated" me with was that farther on up the road of life there'd be days when I'd encounter ignorant, second-rate arschlosche like been_there.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:33 am

"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:43 pm

"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby landrew » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:00 pm

Zuckerberg is caught up in the free speech argument, as we all were back in the 80s. At that time, hate speech had not yet been defined as a crime, and the theory was that you had a right to say nearly anything, but everyone also had a right to disagree with it or not. The argument against yelling "fire" in a crowded movie theater was the genesis of the idea that messages themselves could do harm. From there, the anti-hate speech argument grew.
Zuckerberg is either caught in a time-warp, or he really doesn't want to undertake the task of policing Facebook for hate speech.
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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby Balsamo » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:19 pm

Landrew:

doesn't want to undertake the task of policing Facebook for hate speech.


Maybe because the other name of "policing" is "censorhip"? Or because trying to censor 2 billion users (or more) is an impossible task? I do think that what one could call "first degree hate speech" is difficult on facebook - although i am not a member and know this media very well.
I am not sure that Holocaust denial really fits with "first degree hate speech", with some exceptions like when Freddy Berg tries to promote it.

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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:49 pm

FB has wanted to have things both ways, so as to avoid responsibility: “We are a tech company, not a media company,” declares Zuckerberg in his speeches. Thus FB often has often mimicked free speech arguments.

But, when sued by app startup, Six4Three, FB in court recently argued that it is a media company: “The publisher discretion is a free speech right irrespective of what technological means is used. A newspaper has a publisher function whether they are doing it on their website, in a printed copy or through the news alerts.” If FB is a media company, it would, like other publishers, exercise editorial discretion about what it publishes.

In other ways, however, FB is a bit like a public utility - which companies tend to be natural monopolies and are usually subject to regulation and various degrees of governmental or other public controls. Zuckerberg OTOH simply has wanted to be at liberty to monetize people's fascination with themselves and profit off their desire to communicate with (and troll and hate) one another - without any concomitant exercise of responsibility. The pseudo-free-speech argument (which, back to my original point, deniers entirely miss about FB) was the one that best allowed his company to meet these goals and also escape regulation. As pressure on FB grows from many angles, Zuckerberg seems less and less coherent - but in this latest stance he is again falling back on free speech arguments with a kind of "imminent harm" doctrine.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby Aaron Richards » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:28 pm

Balsamo wrote:Landrew:

doesn't want to undertake the task of policing Facebook for hate speech.


Maybe because the other name of "policing" is "censorhip"? Or because trying to censor 2 billion users (or more) is an impossible task? I do think that what one could call "first degree hate speech" is difficult on facebook - although i am not a member and know this media very well.
I am not sure that Holocaust denial really fits with "first degree hate speech", with some exceptions like when Freddy Berg tries to promote it.


If you can create an algorithm that removes any nude photos from fb within hours, you could create one that scans comments to auto-delete posts featuring certain keywords as well. Anything from the (((brackets))) that nobody otherwise uses, over words like holocoaster, holohoax, gorillion, kike etc. It would definitely clean up a lot of posts.

Not that I advocate this by any means. I hate censorship and would prefer spending my time arguing back :)
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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby Balsamo » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:31 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:
Balsamo wrote:Landrew:

doesn't want to undertake the task of policing Facebook for hate speech.


Maybe because the other name of "policing" is "censorhip"? Or because trying to censor 2 billion users (or more) is an impossible task? I do think that what one could call "first degree hate speech" is difficult on facebook - although i am not a member and know this media very well.
I am not sure that Holocaust denial really fits with "first degree hate speech", with some exceptions like when Freddy Berg tries to promote it.


If you can create an algorithm that removes any nude photos from fb within hours, you could create one that scans comments to auto-delete posts featuring certain keywords as well. Anything from the (((brackets))) that nobody otherwise uses, over words like holocoaster, holohoax, gorillion, kike etc. It would definitely clean up a lot of posts.



Not that I advocate this by any means. I hate censorship and would prefer spending my time arguing back :)


Actually, the idea that we would give to algorithms the duty to judge what can be said and what cannot is much more scarier than the lunacies coming from our Deniers. As a joke, kike could be a typo for bike, and i admit kike - although i do know the term - does not mean anything for non english speakers...So one would have to introduce in this algorithms not only kike, but obviously Youpin, Youtre, Youd, Kippe, (just in French) and do the same with each language.
Holohaox, why not? But that would just erase the word, so even two anti-deniers would not be able to use it.
In fine, it is not the wording that is Antisemitic, but the ideas behind them. If all deniers then chose to designate the Jew as "lemonade", what then, forbid the term lemonade as well?

And i do not believe in the use of force to fight wrong ideas.
This is unfortunately the pace that seems to have been chosen.

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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby landrew » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:37 pm

Banning book titles is easy compared to designing algorithms which can catch nuanced phrases concerning holocaust denial.
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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:49 pm

SPLC letter to members on Facebook's HD policy:
After a burst of criticism, Zuckerberg clarified his remarks, but only with respect to his personal feelings about those who engage with Holocaust denial. His company's policy, on the other hand, remains. On Facebook, it's officially permissible to proliferate content that denies the crimes of Nazi Germany. . . .

At its foundation, Holocaust denial is a strategy to rehabilitate Nazism. . . . The intent of yesterday's Rockwell and Carto is the same as today's neo-Nazis at the Daily Stormer or on 4chan: to erode the public's understanding of the Holocaust in order to make fascist and Nazi ideas appealing again. . . .
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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:44 pm

a no-platforming response to HD (critique of Zuckerberg):
There can be no debate with Holocaust deniers. That is a core principle of moderating the AskHistorians subreddit, one of the largest history forums on the internet—and a crucial lesson Mark Zuckerberg seemingly does not understand. Zuckerberg got into hot water on Wednesday when he stated that Facebook wouldn’t necessarily remove Holocaust deniers from its platform because people “get things wrong” and because it’s not always possible to understand the deniers’ intent.

This position fundamentally fails to grasp how Holocaust deniers spread anti-Semitic propaganda, underscoring a flaw in how the purportedly neutral platform thinks it ought to handle particularly odious ideas. Conversation is impossible if one side refuses to acknowledge the basic premise that facts are facts. This is why engaging deniers in such an effort means having already lost. And it is why AskHistorians, where I am one of the volunteer moderators, takes a strict stance on Holocaust denial: We ban it immediately. . . .

Nazi Germany and the Holocaust are two of the most popular subjects on our forum. Questions in these fields often attract scores of Holocaust deniers. This frequent interaction has again and again proven to us that Holocaust denial is a form of political agitation in the service of bigotry, racism, and anti-Semitism. It has also taught us a lot about the strategy of Holocaust deniers online and that the only effective way to stop them from spreading hate and lies is to refuse to give them a platform.

because when AskHistorians says no, HD definitely can't happen elsewhere on reddit, at Stormfront, on YouTube, on Facebook, in political campaigns, etc . . . I must say that I've heard vague rumors that HDers make YTs, have their own web forums, publish and disseminate materials . . .
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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:57 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:because when AskHistorians says no, HD definitely can't happen elsewhere on reddit, at Stormfront, on YouTube, on Facebook, in political campaigns, etc . . . I must say that I've heard vague rumors that HDers make YTs, have their own web forums, publish and disseminate materials . . .


Alas yes. Horrible as it is, better to engage HD with rational argument than to allow it to score propaganda points based on "censorship." The Deniers can't be silenced, so better just to keep combating them with sober facts and rational demolishing of their "arguments." It does no good to get them off any number of forums, since the Internet is absolutely amoral and will provide them with bandwidth, one way or another.
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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:19 pm

I think those of us who go out and engage deniers where we find them it’s a bit of a struggle. On the one hand I don’t mind going head to head with them but on the other it seems horribly perverse to allow people to spread this nonsense. It troubles me that those who use Facebook to post family memories and talk with their friends might stumble across this stuff by accident. I also find it perverse that Neo-Nazi morons use this platform to make love connections across the country.

So it’s always the need to balance free speech against what is harmful.
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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby Balmoral95 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:48 pm

I also find it perverse that Neo-Nazi morons use this platform to make love connections across the country.



Oy, better THERE than at Jdate! :lol: :lol: :lol:

https://www.jdate.com/en-us

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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:32 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:because when AskHistorians says no, HD definitely can't happen elsewhere on reddit, at Stormfront, on YouTube, on Facebook, in political campaigns, etc . . . I must say that I've heard vague rumors that HDers make YTs, have their own web forums, publish and disseminate materials . . .


Alas yes. Horrible as it is, better to engage HD with rational argument than to allow it to score propaganda points based on "censorship." The Deniers can't be silenced, so better just to keep combating them with sober facts and rational demolishing of their "arguments." It does no good to get them off any number of forums, since the Internet is absolutely amoral and will provide them with bandwidth, one way or another.

Indeed, one will almost never convince them of anything . . . but IMO the debates had with them are for others who happen by . . . and there are always Parodie and mockery.
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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:43 pm

Balmoral would know better than I about this - Axis History Forum also blocks straight-up HD in its discussions - but I take it that AHF's aim is not so much at no-platforming ("the only effective way to stop them from spreading hate and lies is to refuse to give them a platform") and more at keeping the discussion meaningful and respectful - and at making clear the purposes of the AHF forum.

AHF policy:
The essential aspects of the holocaust are well-known. They have been established through more than fifty years of court proceedings in a large number of countries. The evidence consists of eyewitness testimony from victims and bystanders, the confessions and admissions of perpetrators, photographs, an abundance of documents, physical evidence, forensic studies and judicial findings.

Legitimate questions may be raised about the veracity of individual witnesses or their motives, or isolated items of evidence, or matters of interpretation of policy, etc. These questions do not affect the fact that millions of persons were deliberately murdered, nor does it alter the cumulative and overwhelming evidence of who committed the murders.

The rules of this forum regarding holocaust denial also apply, for example, to the mass murders of Armenians during WWI, and the interwar famine in the Ukraine. It is permissible to question whether these and similar events were the result of a deliberate government policy, and legitimate questions may be raised about the veracity of individual witnesses or their motives, individual items of evidence, or matters of interpretation of policy, but it is not permissible to deny that the events occurred.

Nonconforming posts are subject to deletion without warning. Serious breaches of these rules are punishable by banning the poster.

Rationale for AHF's policy (https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=10881):
Three main reasons for the decision not to allow holocaust denial here are:
1. Holocaust denial is an insult to those that suffered and died
2. Allowing holocaust denial will scare away many of the regular posters, both those that find it generally offensive and those that do not in any way wish to be connected with such nonsense. . . .
3. Allowing holocaust denial would make it (even) harder to make people understand that this is an apolitical forum, not a pro-nazi or denier forum. . . .
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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:54 pm

a moment of silence for Mr Zuckerberg, please . . .
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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:53 pm

Someone on Titter: "Facebook loses 16 billion in a matter of minutes!! Maybe Zuckerberg should have listened to conservatives when we said STOP CENSORING US!! "
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:30 pm

"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:59 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Sergey's Adventures in Twitland



Missed out on that one....
‘I have not left anybody in the dark about the fact that this time, millions of adult men would not die, and hundreds of thousands of women and children would not be burnt or bombed to death in the cities, without the actual culprit, albeit by more humane means, having to pay for his guilt.’
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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:55 pm

"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby Balmoral95 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:59 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Balmoral would know better than I about this - Axis History Forum also blocks straight-up HD in its discussions - but I take it that AHF's aim is not so much at no-platforming ("the only effective way to stop them from spreading hate and lies is to refuse to give them a platform") and more at keeping the discussion meaningful and respectful - and at making clear the purposes of the AHF forum.

AHF policy:
The essential aspects of the holocaust are well-known. They have been established through more than fifty years of court proceedings in a large number of countries. The evidence consists of eyewitness testimony from victims and bystanders, the confessions and admissions of perpetrators, photographs, an abundance of documents, physical evidence, forensic studies and judicial findings.

Legitimate questions may be raised about the veracity of individual witnesses or their motives, or isolated items of evidence, or matters of interpretation of policy, etc. These questions do not affect the fact that millions of persons were deliberately murdered, nor does it alter the cumulative and overwhelming evidence of who committed the murders.

The rules of this forum regarding holocaust denial also apply, for example, to the mass murders of Armenians during WWI, and the interwar famine in the Ukraine. It is permissible to question whether these and similar events were the result of a deliberate government policy, and legitimate questions may be raised about the veracity of individual witnesses or their motives, individual items of evidence, or matters of interpretation of policy, but it is not permissible to deny that the events occurred.

Nonconforming posts are subject to deletion without warning. Serious breaches of these rules are punishable by banning the poster.

Rationale for AHF's policy (https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=10881):
Three main reasons for the decision not to allow holocaust denial here are:
1. Holocaust denial is an insult to those that suffered and died
2. Allowing holocaust denial will scare away many of the regular posters, both those that find it generally offensive and those that do not in any way wish to be connected with such nonsense. . . .
3. Allowing holocaust denial would make it (even) harder to make people understand that this is an apolitical forum, not a pro-nazi or denier forum. . . .


Their policy as well as more or less overall moderation has worked pretty well over the years. Certainly in the HWC subforum Dave Thompson should be well appreciated by all for fairness, patience, research, and longevity there, ie, long term commitment to the forum's success.

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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:26 pm

piece by Kara Swisher, the journalist whose Recode interview with Mark Zuckerberg elicited his views on HD on FB: "The Expensive Education of Mark Zuckerberg and Silicon Valley: They have weaponized social media, and we are all paying the price."
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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:54 pm

"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Amazon stops selling more than 70 Holocaust denial books

Postby landrew » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:51 pm

I wouldn't call this proof, but in the last few years, if you criticize Russia or Putin online, you sometimes get shouted down by scores of pro_Russia supporters. There's an army of foreign influence somewhere.
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