Hungary, Anyone?

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Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:17 pm

Let's kick this off with another excellent HC item from Jon Harrison.

I've started reading Braham's new edition of The Politics of Genocide: The Holocaust in Hungary. I was under the mistaken impression that the new publication was a reissue of the 2/e. It is not; it is a fully updated new edition, incorporating the latest scholarship and new archival research.

I will post what I consider important or discussion-worthy items from Braham on the Holocaust in Hungary. Braham's study is quite long, and the first 10 or so chapters focus on pre-war and pre-1943 Hungary. So bear with me, this thread will take some time to develop, as I'm busy and won't be zipping through the book. In the meantime, let's post any Hungary-related material in this thread.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Xcalibur » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:10 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Let's kick this off with another excellent HC item from Jon Harrison.

I've started reading Braham's new edition of The Politics of Genocide: The Holocaust in Hungary. I was under the mistaken impression that the new publication was a reissue of the 2/e. It is not; it is a fully updated new edition, incorporating the latest scholarship and new archival research.

I will post what I consider important or discussion-worthy items from Braham on the Holocaust in Hungary. Braham's study is quite long, and the first 10 or so chapters focus on pre-war and pre-1943 Hungary. So bear with me, this thread will take some time to develop, as I'm busy and won't be zipping through the book. In the meantime, let's post any Hungary-related material in this thread.


Denier reactions: "tl;dr", "spam", "wall of text" :lol:

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:28 pm

I promise - it will only get worse ;)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:30 pm

So . . . just a few items. Braham's book is really good - believe me! it's yuuuuge! - but it would take too much energy and time to summarize the arguments he makes about the interwar period in Hungary. As a consequence I will be dropping in what I think might be valuable directly to the 1944 stuff.

- this first one's just for grounding, as we've kind of spun on numbers before:
In late spring , close to 420,000 Jews from all over Hungary, except in Budapest, were deported to Auschwitz and approximately 20,000 to Strasshof within less than two months.

In addition, there will be (a) the Kamenets-Podolsk massacre (and also the Délvidek massacre) in 1941, (b) the fate of Jews in the Labor Service, and (c) the Arrow Cross period (the Hegyeshalom death marches, killing actions in Budapest, etc) to reckon with.

- on pp 105, 110-117, 120, and 126 Braham discusses at a summary level the knowledge of German extermination campaigns which came to leaders of Hungary's Jewish community and how they handled it; I will post more about this when I can incorporate more specifics on what they knew about individual extermination actions

- in 1940 Arrow Cross member and journalist Mátyás Matolcsy wrote that the Jews must "be removed from the country and from the face of the earth" (p 199): I am enjoying the banter at Rodoh on the meaning of liquidate, especially examples of the word used in non-lethal ways, as though such usage is a new idea, but I do wonder how the fine revisionist gentlemen there would try convincing us that with the expression of this aspiration Matolcsy had in view the closing-down of Jewish firms and/or the simple removal of Jews to . . . somewhere . . .

- speaking of removals to somewhere, not only the far right but by 1940 Horthy and Teleki were speculating about where out of Hungary the Jews might go, although in the case of Horthy and Teleki the desire was tempered by economic realism - the sober and unpleasant recognition that removing 800,000-1,000,000 Jews from Hungary's economy, which was a necessity, could not be accomplished "in a year or two," as the Nyilas urged, without damaging Hungary irremediably - therefore, removal of the Jews would take "a generation at least" and an alliance with Germany to collaborate in a European-wide solution

- with ambassador to Germany Stzójay reporting in late 1940 pressure from the Reich on Hungary to step up anti-Jewish actions and that "the evolution of the Jewish question" in Hungary "will in fact become decisive" in "German-Hungarian relations," Teleki would meet with Hitler and Ribbentrop; according to the German Foreign Office notes on the meeting Hitler explained that the solution of the Jewish question would be one of the most important problems of the postwar period and that he would compel the French to make some colonies (Madagascar was not named specifically) available for the removal of the Jews from Europe (pp 203-204).
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Monster » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:57 pm

I'm Hungary for some Greecey Turkey.
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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:08 pm

A Resettlement Program!

In July 1941 the Hungarian government decided to deport “alien” Jews in Hungary and “resettle” them in areas of Galicia under Axis control. These “alien” Jews consisted of many Russian and Polish Jewish refugees to Hungary, dislocated due to the war, but also Hungarian Jews either unable to produce papers quickly enough or simply caught up in the action.

This operation was under the command of Miklós Kozma, an official in the annexed region of Carpatho-Ruthenia, and was approved by the Regent Horthy. The plan originated in KEOKH, the state agency charged with supervision of aliens residing in Hungary and which seems to have had a continuing supervisory/execution role in the deportation. The plan was codified in Hungarian Decree No. 192/1941, dated 12 July 1941. A secret protocol stated that the purpose of the action was “the deportation of the recently infiltrated Polish and Russian Jews in the largest possible number and as fast as possible.”

Operational directives were for the deported Jews to be permitted to bring with them minimal cash, food for 3 days, and essential personal items. The deportees were to be assembled in the border town of Körösmezö, to which they would be shipped in freight trains, and from there taken across the border into Galicia by military units. In practice, because of the hasty and often chaotic roundups, many deportees were sent off without the minimal foods and goods permitted. Some entire communities in the Carpatho-Ruthenia region were deported. “To ease the restiveness of the arrested Jews, the police, following the ruse invented by the KOEKH . . . , ‘assured’ them that they would be sent to Poland to take over the homes that had been vacated by the Jews who had retreated with the Soviet forces.” Whilst this was not the plan, and despite the inadequate preparations for resettlement, including lack of provisions and appropriate destinations, the Hungarian authorities’ intent was indeed a resettlement of these Jews out of Hungary proper.

Transfers from Körösmezö into Galicia occurred daily during July and early August. Over 17,000 Jews had been brought to Körösmezö, and by 9 August nearly 15,600 of them had been sent across the border. In Galicia, the Jews deported from Hungary was concentrated at Kolomea and marched from there to Kamenets-Podolsk, where they were placed in temporary shelter.

The Germans in Galicia had not expected this influx of deportees. Early requests from the Germans to the Hungarians were that they cease the action as the Germans “could not cope with all those Jews.” The Hungarians refused. A conference, under the leadership of Wagner, quartermaster of the OKH, at Vinnitsa ensued; on 25 August Jeckeln committed to conferees that he would be able to “complete the liquidation of these Jews by September 1, 1941.” (Cue Rodoh-style discussion of the meaning of the word “liquidation.”)

Jeckeln’s extermination action took place 27-28 August 1941. According to an eyewitness account, the Jews gathered in Kamenets-Podolsk were instructed that they must make a further move. Units of the SS and Ukrainian auxiliaries marched the deportees about 15km to where there were bomb craters; there, the Jews were forced to undress and machine-gunned.

It is doubtful that Hungarian units joined the Germans and Ukrainian auxiliaries; in fact, German reports complain of Hungarian non-cooperation or at least dilatory behavior. EM 67 (29 August 1941) stated that most of the region “has been made free of Jews” (Braham’s translation). This action was not connected to anti-partisan activity and was how the conference in Vinnitsa had decided to deal with the large numbers of Jews deported from Hungary as well as local Jews who’d lived in the region. EM 80 provided a little more detail: 23,600 shot according to Jeckeln (“In Kamenets-Podolsk 23,600 Jews were shot in three days by a Kommando of the Higher SS and Police Leaders”), of whom 14,000-16,000 were deportees, the rest local Jews. About 2,000 deported Jews survived, 1,000 of these because Einsatzgruppe Tarnopol, apparently not successfully coordinated into the action, had driven them back from entering the region.

Hungarian officers and soldiers who witnessed the shootings were appalled by what they observed - “by the machine-gunning of men, women and children.” Letters home described their reactions, and many gave descriptions of the horror when back home on furlough. The survivors also told about what had happened. According to Braham, the minister of interior, Ferenc Keresztes-Fischer, a liberal opponent of anti-Semitism in Hungary, “was visibly shocked and declared that he had enough of this . . .” He ordered the chief of KEOKH to carry out no further deportations. Seven trains, two already at Körösmezö, were recalled. Nor were the Germans pleased, as they did not approve of the disorder and chaos that had characterized this unplanned extermination.

This is a case of how an actual resettlement attempt, albeit launched by the Hungarian authorities, ended up, in summer 1941.

Braham, pp 232-241

Other documentation for the Kamenets-Podolsk massacres follows:

Jon Harrison blog piece on decode written up by BRoI: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ng-at.html

Roberto Muehlenkamp at HC surveying the various sources for this action (photos, text documents, testimonies, physical evidence): http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... re_12.html

Degob article on Kamenets-Podolsk: http://degob.org/index.php?showarticle=2019

Angrick article on escalation of killings in 1941 with section on Kamenets-Podolsk: http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micro ... 203208.pdf

EM 80: http://www.yadvashem.org/untoldstories/ ... ite_id=288
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:02 pm

A Hungarian Anti-Partisan Operation?: The Délvidék Massacres

Before WWII Hungary, with German support, annexed a portion of Yugoslavia - the Bácksa, which was a region largely adjacent to the Banat, occupied by the Germans, and some other slivers of Yugoslavia. These annexed areas were called Délvidék. In the Banat already in 1941 Chetnik partisan units operated, raiding Germans and establishing bases from which to strike into the Bácksa. Early in 1942 the Hungarian government determined to deal militarily with the Chetnik guerrillas, committing units of the gendarmerie, regular police, and Fifth Army Corps to action against the Chetniks.

At once the operations began to target civilians in the Bácksa. The rationale for massacring civilians was stated by Feketehalmy-Czeydner, commander of the operation in terms which Himmler surely would have approved: "because they had supported the partisans" and the children swept up in the massacres would "take revenge when they grew up." The actions were brutal, with many victims forced into the Danube River during January 1942 to drown in the icy waters or be shot struggling to survive. W

When accounts of the atrocities reached Budapest, the government directed Feketehalmy-Czeydner to issue orders that the atrocities cease. However, Feketehalmy-Czeydner told civilian authorities that the killing would be called off, but ordered that military units continue to "raid against the partisans in Újvidék," a city in the region.

In this city roundups took place, small-scale execution actions followed - and wealthy hostages, among them many Jews, were seized. A wanton slaughter of the hostages, in which local passers-by were also shot, ensued, with a grotesque shooting action, including children, took place on the Danube beach in the city.

Again, reports of atrocities reached Budapest - this time communicated by Léo Déak, the Hungarian prefect for Bács-Bodrog county. The government ordered a full stop to the action. Still, individual and small group shootings continued in the region for some days.

The final death toll from these "anti-partisan" operations was 3,309 (141 children, 299 elderly men and women): 2,559 of the victims were Serbs, about 700, Jews.

Refugees from the region came to Budapest with testimonies about what they'd witnessed, creating a scandal. At first, Horthy's government stood behind the operation and agreed with far-right members of the legislature that criticisms were attempts to "impugn the honor of the Army." Horthy himself received at least two detailed reports of the atrocities and massacres (Bajscy-Zsilinszky memo 4 February 1942; also the Szüllo memo). Outcries forced a commission to investigate in late winter 1942; it was headed by a member of the Arrow Cross and concluded that the operation had straightforwardly dealt with partisans. However, after the Bardossy government fell, the new PM Kállay would reopen the case.

Kállay's investigation came in the context of changing war fortunes. As Hungary suffered severe losses in early 1943, and the German war effort foundered, Kállay became increasingly concerned to present a better image of Hungary to the world, especially the Allies. The Délvidék massacres remained a stain on Hungary's reputation; Kállay's new examination of the massacres resulted in over 600 pages of depositions and led to charges against 15 officers for various offenses. Among those charged was Feketehalmy-Czeydner, who was convicted and sentenced to 15 years. Seven other officers received sentences as well. Less than a month later, Feketehalmy-Czeydner and three other convicted officers were spirited to Vienna, where they remained under the protection of the Gestapo.

As Hungary protested, Hitler, though SS-Brigadeführer Hewel, who was plenipotentiary for the German Foreign Office at the Führer's headquarters, instructed on how the situation was to be dealt with - an early, 1944, case of Holocaust denial: "the Hungarians were to be told that the stories about the killing of thousands of innocent women and children should not be believed" and that the Hungarian military could not possibly have carried out the atrocities in the Bácksa; the Hungarians "were to be informed that the massacres were a fabrication of the Jews and that Germany would extend asylum to anyone accused of persecuting Jews." In a review by Ribbentrop, it was further stated that the Hungarian trial of the officers "had been staged for 'foreign political reasons' to please Germany's enemies" and was a disloyal action on the part of "certain circles in the Hungarian government," among them Kállay. (That the trial took place in the context of Hungary's distancing itself from Germany was true enough - but that fact doesn't change what happened on the ground in the Bácksa in early 1942.)

When the Germans occupied Hungary in March 1944, the four officers protected in Vienna returned to Hungary and were given official roles in the German-imposed government - Feketehalmy-Czeydner himself being named Deputy Minister of Defense.

Lest Mary Q Contrary start whining about Hitler's Befehl or try ginning up some semantic game concerning what constitutes the Holocaust, the Délvidék massacres were basic war crimes that also targeted Jewish civilians along with a larger number of Serbs. The targeting of Serbs as the main victims was in keeping with the demographic character of the Délvidék, where only about 14,000 Jews lived. That the victims were nearly all Serbs and Jews unconnected to the guerrilla units except through proximity belies any depiction of the slaughter as a true anti-partisan operation, let alone a legal exercise. Although the perpetrators were later given German protection and became officials in the German-occupation government of Hungary, the government that helped the Germans carryd out the Final Solution in Hungary during 1944, the 1942 Délvidék massacres were not part of the Final Solution nor aimed principally at the Jews but were nevertheless used to deal with Jews, along with Serbs, in the Bácksa under cover of anti-partisan operations. A lovely little assortment of war crimes our deniers sign onto when they try passing this stuff off as legitimate . . .

Braham, pp 241-252
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:58 am

Back to some running notations. These are in the context of constant pressure by the Germans on Hungary to participate in the Final Solution, beginning summer 1942. The main German demands, forwarded at various times, through different individuals, included that the Hungarian government 1) permit inclusion of Hungarian Jewish nationals living in the Reich or German occupied territory in the so-called resettlement program, 2) introduce the Yellow Star, 3) adopt anti-Jewish laws closer to Nuremberg laws, 4) drive the Jews out of economic and social life in Hungary, and 5) hand over Hungarian Jews - as other countries were doing (Slovakia, Croatia) with "their" Jews - for resettlement in the East. The Kállay government was not cooperative, even prior to Voronezh and Stalingrad.

- in a meeting with Luther on 2 October 1942, ambassador in Berlin Sztójay told Luther, according to Luther's memo summarizing the discussions, that Kállay himself was concerned about a "rumor" that had come to him about the fate of Jews evacuated in other parts of Europe, although Kállay was said not to believe the unspecified rumor. Luther, echoing the Wannsee protocol, assured Sztójay that evacuated Jews were able to earn a living where they were sent: "all the evacuated Jews, including of course the Hungarian Jews, are to be used for road construction in the East and later transferred to a Jewish reservation." (Braham, p 273)

- as German authorities pressed the Hungarians to participate in the Final Solution, the important point that this was the wish of the Führer was brought up (Luther instruction to Jagow, early October 1942, to make sure that the Hungarians understood Hitler's desire to bring about an immediate solution to the Jewish question; conversation of 11 December 1942 between Prince Albrecht and Gottlob Berger of the RSHA that Worthy and Kállay meet with Hitler who would "show them how to go further"; Luther discussion with Sztójay on 15 January 1943 admonishing the Hungarians that the Fuhrer had firmly decided "come what may, to remove all Jews from Europe while the war is still on" and that Hungary would not be allowed to delay indefinitely) (pp 274, 277, 278)

- the Germans targeted completion of the Final Solution during, not after, the war as they pressured the Hungarian government (Luther instruction to Jagow above; Luther memo 18 December 1942 stating that the radical solution of the Jewish question was to be completed before war's end; 15 January 1943 Luther to Sztójay above) (pp 277, 278) (In case anyone wants to get agita over the term Final Solution, Braham's uses a number of terms and phrases interchangeably, including "FS, "the fastest possible solution to the Jewish question," "radical solution," "intended total solution," and "the solution of the Jewish question in Europe.")
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:00 pm

Continuing . . . by no means tying to describe the ins and outs of German policy and pressure, and Hungarian responses, but rather noting some points of interest:

- in spring 1943, before the first Schloss Klessheim meeting between the Führer and Horthy, the Hungarians had annoyed the Reich authorities when the Defense Ministry complained to the Nazi government about, quoting from the complaint, "incidents during the retreat from the Don when members of the . . . Jewish labor service companies were shot by the Sicherheitsdeinst." The labor-service men shot by the SD were Jews serving compulsory labor duty in special units supporting Hungarian army units in the war. The Hungarian complaint included a threat to pull labor service units from the Ukraine if SD shootings continued. (Braham, p 281)

- on 29 May 1943, over a month after the unsuccessful Schloss Klessheim meeting, Kállay gave a speech noticed by German authorities in which he said that he was not favorable to a deportation of Hungarian Jews unless he knew the destination to which they would be relocated. (p 286)

- in July 1943 Horthy gave a speech, on which Himmler's office remarked negatively, arguing that Hungary would consider action against the "little Jews" (that is, Galician Jews who'd come into Hungary) but that influential Hungarian Jews in business, science or other fields were not to be harmed; even the so-called little Jews from the East should not be evacuated to the Ukraine but made to do forced labor useful to Hungary, within Hungary (this offer, in effect allowing some action against eastern Jews but protecting Hungarian Jews, proposed a dichotomy which Bloxham somehow believes to be at the core of the Final Solution - which in his view could be complete with the successful execution of hard, destructive blows against Jews of the East and especially Poland; this dichotomy was not acceptable however to the Germans). (p 286)

- in his findings on his 2nd mission to Hungary, 10 December 1943, special emissary Veesenmayer reported to Himmler (then to the Foreign Office), without differentiating "little Jews" from the main body of Hungarian Jews, that "the Jews are enemy No. 1 and the 1.1 million Jews amount to as many saboteurs . . . and they will have to be looked upon as Bolshevik vanguards." Veesenmayer, also alarmed by peace/neutrality soundings undertaken by Horthy and Kállay, proposed retention of Horthy with a change of those in the government, including an active role of the Führer in Hungarian affairs. (p 289)

- throughout 1943, most famously in April's first Schloss Klessheim meeting, the Führer was part of the pressure on Hungary to - in the words of Veesenmayer - undertake "immediate action in the field of the Jewish question in accordance with a previously coordinated plan" (10 December 1943). (a) At Schloss Klessheim a frustrated Hitler had chided Horthy that in Poland "the Jews who did not want to work [!] were shot and those who could not work died." After the meeting, in a diary entry for 8 May 1943, Goebbels wrote that "The Jewish question is being solved least satisfactorily by the Hungarians. . . . The Führer did not succeed during his talk with Horthy in convincing the latter of the necessity of more stringent measures. . . . You cannot just have humanitarianism when dealing with the Jews. Jews must be defeated. The Führer made every effort to win Horthy over to his standpoint but succeeded only partially." (b) In Sztójay's report on a meeting he had with Ribbentrop, 28 April 1943, ambassador Sztójay wrote that Ribbentrop had told him that Hitler had decided that Germany and its allies should remove Jews from Europe and expected the resettlement of Jews to the East to be complete by the end of summer 1943. (c) See note just above on Veesenmayer's 10 December 1943 report. (pp 282-283, 285, 289 290)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:30 am

". . . he did not keep it a secret that 'resettlement' meant execution."

Braham summarizes the famous Ottlik memo, 10 October 1942 (discussed in Jon Harrison's HC article linked to in the OP). The memo was written of course at the height of Einsatz Reinhard and when German pressure on Hungary to step up action against the Jews had become steady. Ottlik, a member of Hungary's upper house and editor of a policy magazine, close to the government, had traveled to the Reich where he met with Sztójay, Hungarian ambassador in Berlin.

Ottlik's memo went to Kállay, at the time Foreign Minister. Ottlik reported Sztójay's understanding from his German counterparts of the Nazis' determination to achieve a "radical" solution to the Jewish question - again, during the war. Sztójay identified the main fly in the ointment between Hungary and Germany as the Jewish question; from the Reich's point of view, the continuing "great influence and role played by the Jews in Hungary." Ottlik commented further that Sztójay, based on his knowledge of German wishes, advised that the Hungarians act against the Jews before the Nazis felt a need to push them more and that a good step would be to immediately "resettle a sizable portion of our Jewish population in occupied Russia." At first broaching the number 300,000 Sztójay "bargained himself down to 100,000."

According to Ottlik, "On my interjected remark he did not keep it a secret that 'resettlement' meant execution."

Braham explains that this scheme, and the number 100,000 first came from far-right circles in Hungary's military and was picked up by the Germans, who began testing to see if the intention was official policy or simply a factional desire.

In October 1942 Wisliceny, who was heading up the Slovakia action, visited Budapest and met with Fay, a far-right official in the Foreign Ministry. The men dined at the Golf Club in the Svábhegy district of Budapest on 6 October. Wisliceny's report said inter alia that Fáy had agreed that the Hungarian anti-Jewish program was not sufficient on a number of grounds. Wisliceny and Fáy discussed the extent to which Romania was participating in the Nazi plans.

"Suddenly," wrote Wisliceny, "Fáy asked if Hungary would also be considered in a resettlement program. It was a matter of about 100,000 Jews in Carpatho-Ukraine and the territories acquired from Romania, whom Hungary would like to resettle. As a second stage, one would have to handle the [Jews from the Hungarian Plains], and finally [those in] the capital city of Budapest. I then told him . . . I had no clear picture whether there were reception facilities for Hungarian Jews in the Eastern Territories." Of course, at this time, fall 1942, Auschwitz was over half a year from having Kremas II-V as "reception facilities" and the "facilities" in the Einsatz Reinhard camps were busy receiving Jews from Poland.

The process outlined in Wisliceny's memo - advanced by a leading member of the Hungarian far right - represented a possible viable approach to the Germans. According to Braham, it is not clear who on the far right in Hungary had developed this approach - but it is clear that Kállay never gave his support.

Wisliceny's memo went to the Foreign Office and seems to have reached the RSHA and Himmler himself. Himmler wrote to Ribbentrop on 30 November 1942 citing other similar offers, these proposed by officers in the Hungarian army. Himmler now envisioned a three-part process, with the first part being the "evacuation" of 100,000 Jews from the eastern regions of Hungary. Himmler's acceptance of this approach was new, as he'd previously wanted a full sweep in Hungary. Himmler now even offered to assign Wisliceny to Budapest as "scientific adviser" to the Final Solution in Hungary.

As a follow-up, Ribbentrop had Luther feel out the Hungarian government on its readiness to deport, to begin with, 100,000 Jews from Hungary. Although the German archives do not contain a document giving Hungary's answer, the government was opposed to any evacuation of the Jews at the time as well as to German efforts to "evacuate" Jews who were nationals of Hungary living in Poland, western Europe, and Slovakia (Hungary would even demand return of "evacuated" Hungarian nationals).

Whilst the far-right's proposals didn't go forward in late 1942, and Hungary would not at the time join Slovakia in participating in the Final Solution, the framework advanced by members of the Hungarian far right would be revived in 1944. (pp 326-330)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:33 pm

Report of Kloetzel, official in German Foreign Office in Krakow, 23 November 1943: Kloetzel's report included a complaint that Hungarian officials had been taking photographs of the mass graves of Jews shot near Stanislav in Galicia (Sandkühler estimates 10,000 Jews shot there in action on "Bloody Sunday," 12 October 1941, action carried out by units of Reserve PB 133 and others; smaller shooting actions followed through 1942 in the city and area). (Braham, p 365)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:39 pm

Today's Hungary, government-sponsored denial?

Had the nationalist government of Prime Minister Viktor Orbán not spent the previous four years conducting a campaign of historical distortion regarding the country’s Holocaust history, one might be more charitable about its motives for constructing this monument. Through a set of government-sponsored historical institutes, publicly funded documentaries, revisions to school curricula, bestowal of state honors to extreme right-wing figures, and erections of public monuments and museum exhibitions, the Orbán administration has disseminated a narrative that minimizes Hungarian culpability in the extermination of some half-million Jews and rehabilitates Horthy’s reputation from that of opportunistic Nazi ally to selfless defender of national independence.

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-an ... -of-europe

Excerpted from The End of Europe: Dictators, Demagogues, and the Coming Dark Age. Copyright © 2017 by James Kirchick. Excerpted by permission of Yale University Press.
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:49 pm

The US is fortunate to have Sebastian Gorka as a deputy assistant to Trump in the White House. Snappy dresser, too.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:04 pm

I'm just adding a comment so I can follow along.

Carry on.

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:24 pm

The Jewish Danger! Partisans and Saboteurs! The Jews Must Be Removed and Sent Far Away to Protect the Reich!

The Germans operated mines seized during their war in Yugoslavia in the Bor region. The copper from these mines supplied about half the Reich's wartime needs. Organization Todt (OT) and Siemens company jointly managed operations at these copper mines, which the Germans deemed of critical importance. However, in late February 1943, with Germany's war effort in dire straits and resource needs pressing, Gerhardt Frank, OT vice president, determined that employment of 13,000 men was required in the Bor mines where only 3,000 men were then working.

To fill the gap, Frank sought immediate recruitment of 1000s of workers. He specifically refused, however, employing Serbs in the mines, on account of their propensity to "engage in passive resistance" and "to go over to the partisans." Therefore, Frank sought a more reliable labor source: Jews from Hungary already conscripted into labor service battalions. The Hungarians eventually obliged and by July the first contingent, about 3,000 strong, was sent to the Bor mines for labor. Here they lived in camps under Hungarian supervision and worked 11 hours a day supervised by the Germans who ran the mines. (Braham, pp 386-393)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:48 am

This is a bit of a tangent, but not too far afield:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:. . . After the [Schloss Klessheim] meeting, in a diary entry for 8 May 1943, Goebbels wrote that "The Jewish question is being solved least satisfactorily by the Hungarians. . . . The Führer did not succeed during his talk with Horthy in convincing the latter of the necessity of more stringent measures. . . . You cannot just have humanitarianism when dealing with the Jews. Jews must be defeated. The Führer made every effort to win Horthy over to his standpoint but succeeded only partially."

An additional part of this passage from Goebbels' diary figures in this HC blog article, "More Nazi Mass Murder Statements (Part 1)".

However, the statement cited as a murder statement ("the junk of small states which still exists in Europe must be liquidated as quickly as possible") in context seems to refer not to Jews but to European states. This becomes clear from Sergey Romanov's note in the Comments section quoting the original German at some length. The "junk" sentence (which Braham did not quote) is interpreted in the HC article to threaten destruction of the Jews, whereas, as Sergey Romanov says, it seems rather to threaten destruction of European states because, like Hungary, many of them were seen as taking too long to take actions pushed by the Third Reich or even failing to recognize Germany's leadership and not implementing desired policies at all, including especially the Reich's Jewish policy. Goebbels' sentiment, as I interpret it, was that these states would have to be liquidated so that Europe could led by Germany.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:14 pm

A Gorka tangent:

The Gorka story (allegiance to/membership in Vitézi Rend, the Heroes Order sponsored by Horthy) won't go away, despite Tablet's dismissal of the issue and Gorka's explanations. Here, HuffPo has a piece including discussion of ties Gorka's father and wife have had to David Irving. Vitézi Rend is listed as a collaborationist group by the State Dept, albeit pre-Tillerson, and its members are ineligible for visas for entry to the US.

While some reporting on this is facile, seeming to equate Horthy with the Nazis, which is way, way too simplistic, it is true that Horthy allied with the Nazis until doing so wasn't in Hungary's interest. It is also to be recalled, when thinking about loyalists of Horthy, that before acting to halt the deportations of Jews from Hungary in 1944, the Regent had okayed the deportation of over 300,000 Jews from the provinces of the country. For Horthy to stop the deportations, as he did in summer 1944, they had to have started: they began and went ahead under the arrangement which Hitler insisted upon and which Horthy accepted - and the deportations which were carried out relied upon Hungarian resources, including Imrédy's government and especially the gendarmerie. Horthy himself was anti-Semitic and did not object to elements of the Final Solution project. Horthy's anti-Semitism seems to have distinguished between "his" Jews (upper class, Budapest, Magyarized, patriotic) and the masses of those Horthy called "little Jews" (poor, Galician, Yiddish), the latter of whom Horthy was glad to have removed from Hungary. Also, as proven by his stance in summer 1944, when he shut down the deportation operation in mid-stream, Horthy was in a position to act earlier against the deportation of the Jews, as the Nazis needed him to remain as Regent and as the Nazis primary goals in their 1944 intervention had to do with the war effort. Worship of Horthy, given this background, is not simple Hungarian patriotism nor is it rejection of dictatorship.

For Gorka to describe the symbols of Horthy's Vitézi Rend as "a declaration for his [father's] resistance to a dictatorship" is tendentious: Horthy's loyalists were, before the war and for most of the war years, allies of the Nazis, more than accepting of the dictatorship in Germany and its imposition on much of Europe - and their opposition to Stalinism doesn't undo their support for the Nazi dictatorship (and Mussolini's, too) or turn them into opponents of dictatorship.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:12 am

The case of Hungary seems challenging for deniers. I've read two angles on it. One, IIRC Butz, minimizes or deniers the mass deportations. The argument is that some deportations occurred, for labor - but nowhere near 440,000 Jews in his view were taken out of Hungary. Bankdraft at Rodoh1.0 made the dumbed down version of this argument: The Nazis coulda shoulda woulda shot the Jews on the spot if they'd wanted to kill them, with all sorts of transport denial thrown in.

The other view, Mattogno and friends, is that the deportations but not the mass murder at Auschwitz occurred. Which gets into aerial photos and all the rest.

But also Mattogno's view and Butz's claims run smack up against the question deniers wish not to discuss: where did the Hungarian Jews go, then? Butz's claims are basically self-refuting; the argument is a non-starter due to the voluminous deportation documentation which Mattogno & friends cannot escape.

In this forum Monstrous has muttered some incoherencies about forced labor but also that in Hungary the Jews "were in no position to 'backstab' the German war effort," opposite to the rationale for their ghettoization advanced by both Germans and Hungarians involved in the Hungarian action. I never was able to assemble a meaningful argument about Hungary from Monstrous's ad hoc dodging efforts.

This case takes us out of Einsatz Reinhard resettlement issues and past 1942-1943. Where on Earth, in 1944, as the Red Army moved west and the Germans ceded massive swaths of territory, were the Hungarian Jews "resettled" to? And what was going on at Auschwitz, do our deniers imagine?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:24 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:The case of Hungary seems challenging for deniers. I've read two angles on it. One, IIRC Butz, minimizes or deniers the mass deportations. The argument is that some deportations occurred, for labor - but nowhere near 440,000 Jews in his view were taken out of Hungary. Bankdraft at Rodoh1.0 made the dumbed down version of this argument: The Nazis coulda shoulda woulda shot the Jews on the spot if they'd wanted to kill them, with all sorts of transport denial thrown in.


I've never understood this argument. What it shows is an inability to understand what the transports were actually for. The Germans needed the labor but didn't want Jews left behind as potential "saboteurs" or "partisans" or expend valuable resources in feeding them.

This is an extension of the policy that led to the Action Reinhard deportations and what Auschwitz was doing on a much smaller scale before this massed deportation of the Hungarian Jews. This "culling" kept valuable labor alive to keep at Auschwitz or ship to other locations.

The other view, Mattogno and friends, is that the deportations but not the mass murder at Auschwitz occurred. Which gets into aerial photos and all the rest.

But also Mattogno's view and Butz's claims run smack up against the question deniers wish not to discuss: where did the Hungarian Jews go, then? Butz's claims are basically self-refuting; the argument is a non-starter due to the voluminous deportation documentation which Mattogno & friends cannot escape.

In this forum Monstrous has muttered some incoherencies about forced labor but also that in Hungary the Jews "were in no position to 'backstab' the German war effort," opposite to the rationale for their ghettoization advanced by both Germans and Hungarians involved in the Hungarian action. I never was able to assemble a meaningful argument about Hungary from Monstrous's ad hoc dodging efforts.

This case takes us out of Einsatz Reinhard resettlement issues and past 1942-1943. Where on Earth, in 1944, as the Red Army moved west and the Germans ceded massive swaths of territory, were the Hungarian Jews "resettled" to? And what was going on at Auschwitz, do our deniers imagine?


Yes, where did those 300,000 + Jews go? The mythical "East" no longer existed.

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:14 pm

The 'we don't want to leave the Jews behind our lines because they are or could be Fifth Column and saboteurs' argument was the same for the 50.000 Jews of Thessaloniki, when Eichmann's best boys Dieter Wisliceny and Alois Brunner were quick briefing the infamous Max Merten and the other German officers in Thessaloniki, early 1943.
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:12 pm

And Hungary had no partisans to make such BS even remotely plausible to anyone . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:11 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:And Hungary had no partisans to make such BS even remotely plausible to anyone . . .


Also: Budapest Jews (the upper crust ones anyway) were known to hob-knob with the Hungarian elites. many had received aristocratic titles from the Austro-Hungarian Imperial days. Hardly a rabble rousing crowd of ruffians.

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:58 am

The ghettoization and deportation measures played on the class, regional, cultural and religious differences among Hungarian Jews. The Final Solution in Hungary began in the northeast (and to a lesser extent along the southern border) of the country, among the masses of Orthodox Jews in newly acquired territory (mostly Carpatho-Ruthenia from Czechoslovakia and Northern Transylvania from Romania), where the argument was made that military operational zones required removal of the Jews (but not of Hungarians) living there and their relocation to ghettos or to areas specially set aside or to Germany for labor. The Jews of Carpatho-Ruthenia were mostly poor, pious, and Orthodox, unlike the cosmopolitan, pro-Magyar community of Budapest; in Transylvania Yiddish was widely spoken amongst the Jews and there was significant Zionist presence, again in contrast to the capital.

The Jewish Council - composed of assimilationist Jews, located in Budapest and centered on the Neolog community, most of its members from professional and business strata - had some knowledge of events in Poland but was in the dark about German plans for all Hungary's Jews. What they saw at the outset was an action in the provinces, one affecting only the Jewish masses - people quite "alien" to them and indeed only recently having become "Hungarians," and what appeared to be and were said to be war measures in the newly declared military operational zones. With this initial approach to removing Jews from Hungary, the German and Hungarian authorities played on the splits in the Jewish community and lulled the Council, whose members could rationalize that the real Magyar Jewish community in Budapest was immune and that war imposed awful necessities. Further, the middle and upper class leaders of Hungarian Jewry knew how to work the system and imagined too that the methods they were used to - petitioning, writing letters of concern, working personal connections - would work during 1944. They were unable to comprehend what was hitting Hungary or develop effective responses - e.g., warning the masses and the world - to the developing Final Solution in their country. (There's a lot more, of course, to be said about Hungary's Jewish leaders - and we can get into that in the future . . . but what's become of our deniers?)

The approach to the Final Solution crafted by the German authorities and the Hungarians, mostly in the Interior Ministry, successfully took advantage of divisions among the country's Jews and of the sensibility and outlook of Jewish leaders in order to maintain calm and order and maximize efficiency and speed.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:57 pm

The cover story of the German-Hungarian authorities for the Hungarian action was multifaceted: workers for the Reich, in war industries; resettling dangerous Jews away from war zones; even agricultural labor for Hungary; and "we are at Waldsee and doing well."

As noted above, by initiating the action in newly annexed areas in the northeast, the authorities were able to give some plausibility to the "war zone" story. But as the action shifted to Trianon Hungary in June, this part of the ruse no longer worked, because at that point the Jews being gathered up were not "alien" Jews along border areas. And "workers for the Reich" as a rationale for the deportations began to fall apart, too, the Jewish Council recognizing in its 22 June appeal to Sztójay that "Also invalidated was our hope that the masses removed from the country were being taken for labor; one can hardly square this assumption with the circumstance that people have been taken out of the country irrespective of age, sex, or health." (Braham, p 856) The Council might have added that those removed were taken as entire communities and amounted to, by that time, over half the country's Jewish population.

One specific item related to the deportation of Jews from Sárvár and clearance of the town of Jews in early July further shows how false was the German promise of labor in the Reich for all but a fraction of the Jews removed from Hungary. After the deportation action was completed in Sárvár, some Jewish children were discovered left behind. According to Braham,
the commandant of the Sárvár Auxiliary Detention Barracks . . . sent notifications to Police Headquarters in Budapest about the individuals "handed over to the Germans." According to one such notification, dated July 14, Mária Agnes Schrey, 2 years old, and Judit Steiner, 7 years old, had been "handed over to the German military for labor in Germany."

(boldface added, pp 894, 927) In these operations terms like "labor in Germany," "workers for the Reich," "military operational zones," and "resettlement" (SS-Oberstürmführer Karl Höcker was transferred to Auschwitz as Baer's adjutant for the Hungarian operation with the title "SS Plenipotentiary for the Resettling of the Jews from Hungary" p 908) had special, technical meanings in the Final Solution; these technical meanings were nearly opposite to the standard usage of such language.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:12 am

The Papal Nuncio in Budapest, Angelo Rotta, made a number of protests against the evolving Jewish policy in Hungary from early on during the German occupation in 1944. By 15 May 1944, the day when the deportations of Jews from Hungary began, the Nuncio forwarded a sharp but diplomatic protest note to the Hungarian government, addressed directly to Stzójay. In this note, the Nuncio warned, "Everybody knows what the deportations mean in reality." Much of the note focused on converts and on humane treatment within the framework of state policy of separating the Jews into special areas.

The government responded, though the Foreign Minister, by assuring the Nuncio of humane care in the Jewish operations, creation of separate governance for converts, and certain exemptions. The government's response repeated the formula that the Hungarian Jews were not deported but rather humanely transferred for labor.

On 5 June the Nuncio sent a further note, which cut to the chase: he went after the government's labor-transfer rationale, observing that old people, sick and infirm Jews, and young children were included in the deportations. Preempting the government's counter-argument, the Nuncio noted that it was surprising that Jews were allowed to keep their families intact when transferred for labor whilst Hungarians who'd gone to the Reich to work during the war had been denied the same opportunity.

Stzójay himself replied to the Nuncio's latest protest, writing on 30 June - the deportations from the provinces by then nearly complete - of the "Jewish manual laborers . . . placed at the disposal of the German government":
. . . the fact that their families were sent together with them to Germany is the result of the decision to keep families undivided, since greater performance can be expected from Jews when they are relaxed by the presence of their families.

Apparently, unlike a Jewish worker, the Hungarian laborer abroad relaxed just fine without his or her family. So, the Nuncio was supposed to understand, the government's "transfer" program was architected around relaxation and productivity of the laborers sent . . . to Germany. And anyway, Stzójay added, he'd try to keep converts and their families in Hungary.

(Braham, vol II, pp 1414-1419)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:16 pm

Braham's discussion of demographics (Jewish losses in Hungary) is not satisfactory IMO. I have to read it again but I'll be damned if I can figure out the death toll, for one thing, from what he writes. On a colleague's advice, I will follow reading of Braham's book (I'm getting close to the end - now in the postwar period, discussions of restitution and trials among other issues) with Tamás Stark's 2000 study, Hungarian Jews during the Holocaust and After the Second World War, 1939-1949, which is noted for the strength of its demographic discussion.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Hans » Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:44 pm

This might be also interesting for this thread:

Demographics of Hungarian-Jewish Auschwitz Survivors Debunks Holocaust Denial

Image

This is the population pyramid of the Hungarian Jewish Auschwitz survivors returning to Hungary as recorded by the National Committee for Attending Deportees. It demonstrates the radical loss of children and elderly among the Hungarian Jews by the Nazi extermination policy in Auschwitz.

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:41 pm

Thanks, Hans. That shows what Braham gets at, too. Braham relies on data from the Hungarian Section of the World Jewish Congress and starts with a pre-racial definition (1941) population of 725,000 Jews in Hungary. To this number were added during 1941 racially defined Jews - another 100,000. But Jewish losses prior to the occupation in March 1944 were significant - about 42,000 Jewish labor servicemen perished at the fronts, mostly in Ukraine and somewhere around 20,000 Jews were murdered at Kamenets-Podolsk and Ujvidék in 1941.

By March 1944 Braham has the total number of Jews living in Trianon Hungary and the recently acquired territories as 762,000.

The WJC data differ to the assessment of László Varga in some areas but overall only by about 14,000 if I follow Braham correctly (e.g., Varga estimates slightly a slightly lower death toll in the 1941 killings and believes that fewer labor servicemen died).

So a word about the demographic pyramid: returnees from camps and labor service were mostly 20-50 years of age, according to Braham, which makes sense in that the labor servicemen were men drafted into labor battalions for hard physical work and the KL survivors were those selected for labor instead of gassing (thus, working age for the most part). At the same time, Jews living in Budapest, whilst subjected to ghettoization and random killing especially by the Nyilas, were not deported en masse as were the Jews in the provinces. Thus, behind the Hungary-wide demography we would see a breakdown for Budapest that looks more normal in age distribution - but not sex distribution (because Jewish men from Budapest were called up to labor battalion duty - with a mortality rate of over 60%).

Braham, pp 1506-1512 (I will add more when I've read Stark's book and also see if I can sort anything out on WJC vs DEGOB sources)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:50 pm

Additional on the Führer's role in the mass murder of the Hungarian Jews, summarizing several passages from Braham:

In early July 1944 Horthy called a halt to the deportations of Jews from Hungary to "the Reich." By this time, nearly all Jews had been deported from the provinces of Hungary, leaving just those of the capital and labor servicemen. The total number deported by this time was, according to a report made by Ferenczy, 434,351 Jews on 147 trains (this number includes 24,128 Jews deported after the suspension of the deportations by the Hungarian government). (p 907)

Just prior to this action, the Hungarian Council of Ministers had met (26 June) and approved schemes for the emigration from Hungary of nearly 8,000 Jews. Of these potential emigrants, 7.000 were under the sponsorship of Switzerland, between 300-400 sponsored by Sweden, and about 500 sponsored by the US War Refugee Board. This scheme was known at the time as "the Horthy Offer."

The Hungarian government informed Veesenmayer, Third Reich plenipotentiary in Hungary after the occupation, of this decision. Veesenmayer, who would recommend German acceptance of the emigration plan, continued to pressure the Hungarian government to resume the deportations on account of
the danger presented by hundreds of thousands of Jews to the capital of a country in its fifth year of war.

(p 1033, RLB [collection of documents published by Braham] Docs 190-191) Veesenmayer put pressure on both Sztójay and Horthy.

On 10 July, based on advice from Veesenmayer and Ribbentrop, Hitler accepted the Hungarian decision - but with one proviso: Hungary allow the deportations, stopped just three days earlier, to resume:
provided that Horthy is willing to allow speedy resumption of the deportations.

(p 1033, RLB, Docs 324-326) Sztójay in turn informed the ministers' council of Hitler's decision on 12 July. He presented Hitler's concern as not to "violate the interests of the Arabs" by permitting emigration to Palestine. Stzójay advocated for resumption of the deportations as requested by the Germans. According to Braham, Stzójay told the ministers at this meeting
that he had asked Veesenmayer to have the Germans urgently refute the allegations that the deported Jews were being gassed and cremated.

In the discussion, it was noted that Romanian Jews were traveling to Palestine and the question raised why there was differential treatment for Hungary. A communique was sent following this meeting to Hungarian officials abroad explaining that the Hungarian government had suspended "the dispatch of Jews abroad for the purpose of labor" (p 1034) whilst dealing with the Swiss, Swedish, and WRB emigration requests. (RLB, Docs 158-160)

The framework - emigration okayed but not without a resumption of the deportations - set by the Führer governed the further emigration schemes, in the end rendering them moot.

Relief organizations, led especially by Miklós Krausz, Budapest Palestine Office, interpreted the decisions in two ways that were not in accord with what had actually been decided. First, they were not aware of Hitler's proviso. Second, they took "7,000" etc to mean families, not individuals, and thus laid in plans for emigration by 40,000 or so Hungarian Jews. On 24 July an emigration office was opened in the Glass House, an apartment building in Budapest set aside for the first of the Swiss-sponsored emigrants. Eventually, other "houses" for internationally sponsored Jews were also set aside pending emigration. The Germans pushed back on these accommodations, favoring camps for the "emigrants," but didn't succeed in this effort.

By 17 July Veesenmayer had a long conference with Horthy to convey the Führer's insistence that the measures he requested be carried out. Worthy was warned that dismissal of Stzójay would, in German eyes, be tantamount to treason. Hitler's message to Horthy was stern: resume the deportations at once and do not make changes the Hungarian government. (pp 1036-1037, RLB Docs 198-199; National Archives Microcopy T-120, Roll 4203, Frames K209133-134)

Meanwhile, believing there was now an opening to save 1000s of Hungarian Jews, the International Red Cross as well as the Swiss Legation, and eventually the Swedes and others, were working closely with Krausz in developing protection schemes for the "approved" emigrants.

Another complication, it should be said, was that the Third Reich had no intention, despite denier wailing about Nazis and Zionism, of permitting large-scale emigration of Hungarian Jews to Palestine. The Grand Mufti had made a request on 22 June, for example, to the Hungarians that there be no emigration of Jews to the region. (p 1089) The British were unfavorable as well to emigration to Palestine. Other countries, including the US, were willing to accept only the smallest numbers of Hungarian Jews, and in the international protected houses the potential emigrants were trapped until the Arrow Cross seized power, with German backing, and put an end to such schemes. At one point in the fall, Wallenberg got Nyilas acceptance for 4,500 Jews to leave Hungary under Swedish protection - the Arrow Cross hoped in return for diplomatic recognition from Sweden. During this time, as Arrow Cross terror continued, the Swedes came to protect as many as 10,000 Jews in Budapest.

Braham writes about the Horthy Offer - and Hitler conditions, which were never altered - that
no Jews were ever allowed to leave Hungary under the various emigration schemes. The Germans firmly adhered to the Fûhrer's directive under which, in order to protect the interests of the Arabs, no Jews were to be allowed to go to Palestine; the 7,800 Jews who were sponsored by the neutral states [and the WRB] were to be permitted, theoretically at least, to leave via Western Europe - a route retiring special travel permits from Berlin - and only if the deportation of the Jews of Budapest were resumed.

(p 1449)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:32 pm

For NathanC (well, for Monstrous, but seeing as to how he has fled and NathanC has pummeled him on this topic . . . ):

According to Braham, “the government of the Soviet Union, unlike those of Britain and the United States, did not officially comment on the likely consequences of the German occupation of Hungary for the Jews. The Soviet silence had perplexed the Western powers as well as the Jewish leaders of the free world.” Appeals to the Soviets didn’t budge them. As the Red Army advanced on Hungary, Eden urged a Soviet statement - without any ambiguity - that the Red Army would ensure retribution for the Nazi crimes in Hungary. Molotov answered Eden pointing to that joint Allied declaration of 3 November 1943 - which did not mention Jews! (p 1475) Thus, “no official public declarations condemning the extermination of the Jews were ever issued” (p 1476, I intend to check this absolute assertion by Braham)

One complication in rescue schemes - e.g., the Brand mission - was that the Soviets looked on contacts and any negotiations with the Germans unfavorably and suspiciously.

The Soviets condemned, for example, the Horthy Offer described in the post just above. (p 1476)

Postwar, when our little denier friend claims the Soviets were forging and concocting and fabricating the Holocaust on behalf of world Jewry, according to Braham, on entering Hungary the Soviet posture was very different. For one thing, the Soviets did not support or endorse special consideration for stolen Jewish property and, to the contrary, Jewish property which had accrued to the Germans was treated as German property and was thus subject like any other German property to reparations transactions. (p 1518) By the late 1940s, the Communist authorities were suppressing Jewish restitution claims in the anti-Zionist and anti-cosmopolitan campaign. Braham says that even a restitution fund, established from previously confiscated Jewish property, was being raided by the communists. (p 1522)

Also, Braham discusses the ideological aspect of the post-war - Communist “liquidation” of questions about the fate of the Jews in favor of economic and class-based policies in which anti-fascism, for even Jewish leftists, was tied up. He discusses how campaigns spearheaded by the new authorities in Hungary against black marketeering quickly took on an anti-Semitic thrust. The was the case even though Communist leadership included a significant number of people of Jewish background. (p 1528) In Diosgyor a progrom occurred after miners, led by the Communists, demonstrated against black market activity. (p 1530)

As early as 25 March 1945, the Communist party news organ, Free People, was urging that understanding be shown Christian Hungarians who had come to own (participated in the theft of in collaboration with the ultra-right during the war?) Jewish apartments. J. Darvas, Minister of Construction in the new government, although not a Communist, echoed some of the same reasoning when he excoriated Jews that same spring for “always trying to take the easy road” and pronounced that “no one may claim any privileges on the basis of former suffering.” In place of a restitution program, Jews were told to settle individually by making agreements with people who’d taken their homes. (p 1529) Braham concludes that there was widespread disappointment on the part of surviving Hungarian Jews with Communist postwar policies and actions; this disappointment would lead many Jews eventually to emigrate from Hungary to Israel, after May 1948, or to the US and nations of the British Commonwealth. (p 1531)

This was the Soviet-dominated Communist movement, in action in Hungary, which Monstrous and other deniers try tarting up into the originator of a myth of the mass murder of European Jews - a movement so callous toward the Jews that it had trouble mentioning their situation, with a rigid class-struggle ideology that made it unable to come to terms with events in Europe, and oriented toward advancing and maintaining its power interests and Soviet power at all costs. "Selling" a depiction of this movement as pro-jewish or under Jewish influence is a non-starter.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:03 pm

This is pretty much a common theme in the East European countries the Soviets "liberated." The Soviets and Poles treated surviving Polish Jews in same way, denying them their property and businesses.

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:06 pm

Yep, I thought that NathanC might want to add this stuff to his collection :)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby NathanC » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:49 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Yep, I thought that NathanC might want to add this stuff to his collection :)


Indeed, this is very useful info. Especially right now where the Trump administration is having a scandal because of Sebastian Gorka; a Hungarian Neo Nazi known for refusing to condemn past and present Hungarian antisemitism. The details you've provided should help undermine the inevitable excuses for Gorka et al that Hungarian Jews were "communists".

I think this is worth sharing with Dr. Mathis since he has an article about Gorka...

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:42 pm

Some random (post-war) points made by Braham:

1) When it came to restitution of victims, the GDR 'rejected any differentiation between classes of victims of fascism based on race and religion." The GDR, like the FRG, maintained that it was not a successor-to-interest of the Third Reich; unlike the FRG, the GDR did not voluntarily assume any obligations toward the Jewish victims of the Final Solution and other crimes against humanity. (vol II, p 1531)

2) Results of trials held before people's tribunals and the national council of people's tribunals in postwar Hungary, as of March 1948:

- 39,514 individuals in criminal proceedings
- 31,472 cases completed
- 5,954 cases dismissed
- 9,245 not guilty verdicts
- 16,273 convictions (8,041 prison sentences < 1 year; 6,110 prison sentences of 1-5 years; 41 life sentences; 322 death sentences; 146 executions carried out, rest commuted to life in prison) (vol II, pp 1540--1541; N.B. Horthy was never charged with a crime, vol II, p 1562)

3) In the trials before the people's tribunals, important German witnesses (e.g., Veesenmayer, Winkelmann) testified that the blame for the decimation of Hungarian Jewry lay with the Hungarian officials, whilst Hungarian defendants "tried to pin all responsibility for the country's disaster on the Germans." (vol II, p 1539)

4) The case of Ferenc Koréh: Koréh was an anti-Semitic journalist and propagandist who, in addition to serving as editor of an anti-Semitic newspaper in Northern Transylvania, was an official in the Hungarian government's Propaganda Office during the Final Solution. After the war, Koréh managed to emigrate to the US in the 1950s, despite his conviction for war crimes in 1947 in Hungary. He became an official with Radio Free Europe, an anti-Communist propaganda outfit, created by and funded in part by the CIA, which broadcast into Soviet satellite countries. In 1981, the OSI opened a case against Koréh based on his war-time record (Peter Black worked on this case). The case was suspended, and Koréh continued working for RFE. After the collapse of Communism in 1989, the OSI reopened its case against Koréh. It was found that Koréh had entered the US illegally, having received an entry visa under false pretenses. In 1994 Koréh's citizenship was revoked - he died in 1997 in the US still pursuing an appeal of his deportation order. (vol II, pp 1551-1553)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:17 pm

High Level Data from Stark on Number of Jews in Hungary, 1941 and 1945

1941 Census, # of people subject to Jewish laws in Hungary: 780,000-820,000 [1]

1941:
Casualties at Kamenets-Podolsk 1941: 15,000-16,000
Casualties in Ujvidek massacre 1941: 1,000

During the war:
Casualties in Bor mines, forced labor and among labor servicemen: 24,000
Missing in Soviet captivity: 20,000 [2]

1944:
Spring-summer 1944 deportations: 445,000-450,000 [3]
Arrow Cross deportations fall 1944: 50,000-100,000 [4]
Casualties in Budapest under Arrow Cross regime: 15,000

Number of survivors: 270,000-320,000

[1] 725,000 Jews by faith, rest defined racially including Christians
[2] Stark writes that "only a few returned" to Hungary (p 111). Stark reviews the question of Soviet camps and Hungarians who were incarcerated in them (pp 50-53, 69). The upper limit for this category is 25,000.
[3] Stark used a number of sources for the spring-summer 1944 deportation figures; Veesenmayer reported 437,000 to which Stark adds 10,000 deported in April (pp 23, 26); Veesenmayer's numbers came from Eichmann's task force (p 23); Ferenczy (from the Hungarian Interior Ministry and liaison with Eichmann's task force) reported 434,351 to his superiors (p 24). Stark says that of these, 20,000 deportees were sent for labor to Strasshof in Austria (discussed here). Stark's estimate is that about 75% of those Jews deported to Auschwitz and elsewhere during the spring and summer of 1944 and of those deported in the fall by the Arrow Cross (see [4]) perished - between 375,000 and 410,000 deaths.
[4] These estimates pertain to the forced marches, mostly on foot, the most (in)famous of which is the so-called Hegyashalom death march, of Jews from Budapest and some labor service units to camps on the Hungarian-Austrian border to build Niederdonau fortifications (Südostwall) (the wide range in these estimates is due to lack of official data and divergent unofficial reports, IRC reports set the upper limits). Some of these Arrow Cross deportees were taken to Dachau instead of for forced labor along the border. (pp 34-35, 69)

source: Tamás Stark, Hungarian Jews During the Holocaust and After the Second World War, 1939-1949: A Statistical Review (2000), main date from table on p 115
(I will post later on more detail about deportations and returns/repatriation - Palestine - etc)
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:10 pm

Gerlach and Aly say ~15 K to Strasshof, I wonder whence the difference.

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:19 pm

Sergey, do you know which books? I will look with an eye to comparing them to Stark. Stark lists 4 transports and gives the numbers for each - they total to 20,087.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:21 pm


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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:35 pm

Thanks, I can't tell from what's there. Gerlach & Aly write, “In June four trains from southern and western Hungary with a total of about 15,000 persons, which show up in the German and Hungarian transportation statistics, were redirected to Stasshof near Vienna, and the Jews considered able to work were used as forced laborers in the surroundings. . . .” (they indicate that the issue is discussed further in their chapter 5c)

Stark also has 4 transports (p 25):
27 June from Szolnok: 2,567
29 June from Debrecen: 6,641
30 June from Szeged: 5,239
30 June from Baja: 5,640
Stark cites Szablocs Szita, Halárõd. A munkaszolgálat és a hadimunka történetéhez 1944-1945 (Budapest: Kossuth, 1989), p 53

I don't know if there's a discrepancy between the two sets of data Gerlach & Aly mention - and if so which set Szita, Stark and Gerlach & Aly use . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Hungary, Anyone?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:04 am

Hungarian Jewish deaths in Holocaust: north of 425,000

(Stark takes into account Jews not returning to Hungary - from west and USSR - and Jews returning to the area of today's Hungary as well as to the regions that Hungary lost after the war. He also traces Jews who later left for Palestine/Israel and elsewhere, notably Canada, the US and South America.)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927


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