Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:03 am

You could add repetitive in this case: all that been-there has done is to repeat Rudolf's chicanery but, when caught, insist upon it loudly.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:57 pm

. . . not checking that Rodoh thread for future been-there posts: our deniers' silence here has been more intelligent and interesting than anything that cretin posts . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:52 pm

This post really belongs here:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Ok, despite my saying I wouldn't, I read that thread all the way through, but I found it depressing. Roberto is his usual excellent self but we've heard it all before - from Roberto! In fact, many of Roberto's posts have numerous links to HC and other articles that provide answers to the "questions" asked. And it's depressing how quickly the deniers return to the same old, same old re: Treblinka.

Two quick points on Rothstein, whose case has gradually disappeared from the discussion in favor of repetition of old arguments on Treblinka and "transit":

1) Nessie keeps posting that Rothstein was prisoner #959 on Transport Br (26 September 1942) to Treblinka, based on one of the records cited by been-there (a Czech record file). But that's just the thing - Rothstein's record appears not to match the list of deportees at YV for this transport. Nessie's stating this several times made me go back through the transport list again. Below is a screenshot of deportees 949-960 from the YV database on Transport Br:

Image

No Rothstein, although I can't say for sure that the Czech numbering system matches YV's. I don't know how the Czech record got this #, but note again that it is from a Memorial Book, a secondary source of the type I myself am careful not to rely upon.

2) The thread's discussion of the routes taken by trains from Theresienstadt to Minsk is supported by a) a creative effort at route-drawing by been-there and b) a YV map. However, the YV database lists stops for these transports.

Here's what the map at YV looks like for "Transport Bc , Train Da 224 from Theresienstadt, Ghetto, Czechoslovakia to Maly Trostenets, Minsk, Minsk, Belorussia (USSR) on 25/08/1942" (http://db.yadvashem.org/deportation/tra ... Id=5091972):

Image

This map makes it appear that the train could have gone to Malkinia, as been-there claims. The actual itinerary, below, makes it clear that been-there's speculation is not supported by the details evidence for this transport, at least as compiled by YV:

Image

The closest stop listed to Malkinia is Siedlce, about 70km south of Malkinia. Been-there's "hypothesis" that a trip to Minsk stopped over for refreshments in Treblinka goes bye-bye based on what YV details.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:42 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Not very impressed with Boisdefu's piece. On this particular individual, Boisdefu is more thorough at least than what has been quoted above - but he is not honest:
. . . still more interesting is the journey taken by this deportee that is described in the database. Rothstein, born in 1867, was 75 years of age when he was deported from Berlin to Theresienstadt in August 1942, which means that he could only be deemed unfit for work and therefore, according to official historiography, had to be sent to the gas chamber; in this case, why was he sent to Theresienstadt? This is one of the many mysteries of the Holocaust religion, but let’s move on. From there, he was deported again to Treblinka on September 26, 1942 (transport Br), where, according to the historians, he was gassed at arrival. The editors of the Czech entry consequently go no further: for them, as well, Rothstein died at Treblinka.

However, when the German entry mentions the death of Rothstein, it places it much further east, in Belarus—in Minsk to be precise!

Yad Vashem has three entries for Rothstein, two of them giving his place of death as Minsk. I don't know why the discrepancy, and neither the item above nor Boisdefu explains it. Which is a flimsy reed indeed on which to perch the resettlement claim.

We don't know for sure where Rothstein died - nor if it were in Minsk exactly how he arrived there. So the data on Rothstein is inconclusive.

The dishonest part of the Boisdefu's text is this, a typical example of denier black/white strawmannirg:
75 years of age when he was deported from Berlin to Theresienstadt in August 1942, which means that he could only be deemed unfit for work and therefore, according to official historiography, had to be sent to the gas chamber; in this case, why was he sent to Theresienstadt? This is one of the many mysteries of the Holocaust religion

Heydrich at Wannsee described Theresienstadt like this:
An important precondition, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Heydrich noted further, for the carrying out of the evacuation in general is the precise determination of the groups of persons involved. It is intended not to evacuate Jews over 65 years old, but to place them in an old-age ghetto — Theresienstadt is being considered.

In addition to these age groups — about 30% of the 280,000 Jews who were present in the Altreich and the Ostmark on October 31, 1941, were over 65 years old Jews with severe war injuries and Jews with war decorations (Iron Cross, First Class) will be admitted to the Jewish old-age ghetto. This suitable solution will eliminate at one blow the many applications for exceptions.

That many elderly Reich Jews, along with decorated Jews and Jews who were wounded veterans, were taken to Theresienstadt is not news to the high priests of the Holocaust religion, er, historians. Nor is it news that transports from Theresienstadt carried Jews to Auschwitz and other extermination centers. Historians know too that famous or prominent Jews, whom the Nazis thought suitable for exchanges of prisoners with the Allies, were also housed at Theresienstadt. What's a supposed "mystery" according to Boisdefu is actually common knowledge.

As to the transports from "the old-age ghetto" to the East, Jews would be culled from Theresienstadt and deported to Riga, Izbica, Piaski, Warsaw, Minsk (Maly Trostinets), and various ghettos in Poland; then, with Einsatz Reinhard in full fury, transports from Theresienstadt were directed to Treblinka starting in September and to Birkenau in late October and for months thereafter. Of the nearly 150,000 Jews who were sent to Theresienstadt during its existence, about 33,000 were to die there and almost 90,000 were sent on “to the East,” nearly 75,000 to their deaths, mostly in Auschwitz and Treblinka.

In keeping with the role of Theresienstadt, to provide partial cover for the genocide and to be useful for propaganda (what sense would it make to Germans that 75-year-olds were taken to the East for labor?), the Eichmann trial court observed that
Exhibit T/734 is a report of a consultation on 6 March 1942 in Section IVB4 of the RSHA, presided over by the Accused [Eichmann], when he himself explained that the transports to Terezin were made in order to "keep up appearances for the outside world." In exhibit T/537 (memorandum by Zoepf on a conversation he had with the Accused), Terezin is described simply as the "propaganda camp." 

Already in late fall 1941 Heydrich was looking forward to the way in which internees at Theresidenstadt would be dealt with (T/294):
After further deportations to the East from this temporary camp, in which the Jews will in any case be heavily decimated, the whole area will be built up and developed into an exemplary German settlement.

Later Eichmann was to preside over a police chiefs’ meeting where he told the officials (T/734) that
for the sake of placating the elderly people they should be told that they would be moved in the course of the summer or autumn to Theresienstadt, which was earmarked as the ghetto for the aged. This is being done as a face-saving device for the outside.

An interesting document relative to Theresienstadt, from 10 October 1941, around the time the decision was made to locate a camp in the Protectorate there. The document contains notes "from a Discussion . . . on the Solution of the Jewish Question" held by Heydrich, Karl Hermann Frank, Böhme, Maurer, Eichmann, Günther and others. One immediate discussion point was "the line to be given to the press in the Protectorate" regarding Jewish matters there.

Foreshadowing a number of points made at Wannsee 3 months later, the discussion on 10 October targeted an option of "taking over Theresienstadt by way of the Central Office for Jewish Emigration":
After evacuation from this temporary collection camp (whereby the Jews are already heavily decimated) to the eastern regions, the entire area could be developed into a model German settlement.
(HG Adler, Theresienstadt 1941-1945, p 643)

This sentence conveys some expectation of decimation in "the eastern regions" to which central and western European Jews would be "evacuated"; in addition it expresses the goal that "already" before "evacuation" to the east, Jews would be "heavily decimated" by means of their incarceration at Theresienstadt; and the wording is in line with that used at Wannsee which did not refer to deportations of Jews to Theresienstadt as "evacuation" but as a transfer - "evacuation" reserved for the deportation to the east.

On this last point, the Wannsee Protocol said specifically,
It is not intended to evacuate Jews over 65 years old, but to send them to an old-age ghetto - Theresienstadt is being considered for this purpose.

In reality, as early as late the previous October the RSHA had "commissioned" the Jewish leadership of the Protectorate to prepare for removal to Theresienstadt and by late November a construction commando had been dispatched to the town. Eichmann visited the town just before the Wannsee conference.

The 10 October discussion didn't detail out the exact plan for the "old-age ghetto"/collection point later followed - in fact, at that time other alternatives beside Theresienstadt were being considered.

But what struck me is the language used, similar to that used at Wannsee. This language seems already to begin to designate "evacuation" as lethal. Given this end, steps prior to evacuation - like collection in Theresienstadt - even with its propaganda purposes - could begin the "decimation" process to be realized with evacuation.

Finally, in October 1941 Theresienstadt was seen as a temporary expedient in an overall decimation process; it didn't exactly work out that way, for Theresienstadt lasted into 1945 - but we know that the fortress town did serve as a temporary collection point prior to "evacuation" to "the eastern regions" for many central and western European Jews.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:36 pm

And back to Rothstein. HG Adler confirms a point - relative to testimonies and memorial books used as definitive sources for destinations to which transports went from Theresienstadt. He says generally that knowledge of the camp system, extermination, and events in the east was lacking amongst those in Theresienstadt. One can infer then that information on where inmates of Theresienstadt were transported to is iffy. As we inferred earlier in this discussion. Adler it turns out addresses this issue specifically, writing that
If an individual did not die, he was then deported in an abrupt act, and his destination was unknown to him and to those left behind.

(p 61) In other words, testimonial support of the type used to compile memorial books, on which Boisdefu and Rudolf rely, is explicitly known to be shaky for destinations of transports leaving Theresienstadt.

Further, Adler writes that when the Viennese and German Jews began arriving at Theresienstadt (June 1942), many of them elderly and in terrible physical condition, mortality was very high and burial/funerary practices broke down: by mid-September, the Jewish Council's orders of the day stopped announcing names, transport numbers, and years of birth for the deceased. Jews began dying, and being buried, anonymously. (p 91) (reminder: Rothstein arrived at Theresienstadt in early August 1942, during this period of collapse)

The idea that we know - from what Boisdefu cited and Rudolf relied on - what happened to Rothstein is laughable. Deniers' quick rallying to this piece of {!#%@} article is one more reminder that they don't know what they're talking about and can't be arsed to find out.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:07 pm

As Nick pointed out elsewhere, at first destination A was more or less generally thought to be true (and thus entered the databases), then this conclusion was revised based on newer research and now the destination B is considered to be true (and also entered the databases). Hence we sometimes find the contradictions in the databases which were caused by the changing research results (revisionism!), not by the non-existent deportations to the East through the AR camps. Deniers are dumb.

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:00 pm

Relative to the transports from Theresienstadt during September-October 1942, on one of which Rothstein may have been sent, HG Adler explains that the Camp SS deliberately concealed the destinations from camp elders and inmates. These were transports of mainly elderly German and Austrian Jews who'd been brought to Theresienstadt in the summer, as noted above.

"The SS took care to spend a rumor that the destination was Ostrowo [Ostrow Wielpolski] in Posen [Poznan], a camp 'with conditions as good as in Theresienstadt.' . . ." According to Adler, many of those left behind believed this fiction.

Further, these transports were officially referred to as "to another maintenance ghetto (Versorgungsghetto)."

Also, in assembling individuals for these transports, after interviews of small groups of those singled out, the SS marked on their lists of names either "T" for remaining in Theresienstadt or "O" for those sent to the East, "Osten."

Adler describes the extreme cruelty of these transports of bewildered and infirm elderly Austrian and German Jews, many with no family members or acquaintances in the camp, many unable even to walk to the transports, many not comprehending and debilitated. This cruelty came in part of the Czech Jews, longer residents of Theresienstadt, who gloated that the Austrians and Germans, whom they blamed for the war and Hitler, were finally getting their turn to see what things were like.

The point here again, to state it slowly and carefully so that the deniers amongst us (are any left?) can understand, accurate information about individuals and destinations was hard to come by under these conditions. Neither Boisdefu nor Rudolf in their fantasy-narration of S Rothstein's fate has bothered even to address such issues in dealing with the contradictory records on Rothstein

(pp 101-102)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:25 pm

To beat this dead horse yet again (Monstrous hasn't posted in this thread of his in about 3 months), two more:

1) During the fall of 1942, when Rothstein arrived at and is said to have departed Theresienstadt, one way the Camp SS hid their intentions with the transports out of the camp was to characterize them using camouflage descriptions, e.g., a transport to Birkenau, with over 1,200 Bialystok children, was referred to as an exchange operation with a destination of Palestine or Switzerland and a number of fall 1942 (also 1943) transports to killing camps were said to be "work deployments." (Adler, pp 123, 128, 132) The result was that inmates of Theresienstadt generally were unaware of the purposes and destinations of transports from the camp (as an aside, it seems that prisoners didn't at first connect Birkenau with Auschwitz, p 766, quoting Murmelstein).

2) As I've posted, I cannot locate S Rothstein's name on the lists of those taken from Theresienstadt to Treblinka or Minsk in fall 1942 transports. Adler describes some discrepancies in the lists of inmates removed from Theresienstadt to the east on these fall 1942 transports. The facts are somewhat obscure, and testimonies do not exactly align. It is known that the early Jewish Elder, Edelstein, was taken from Theresienstadt to Auschwitz in November 1943, a year later, on account of some record-keeping/reporting problems dating to late 1942. One testimony maintains that 55 Theresienstadt inmates slated for deportation that fall hid themselves in the camp or otherwise escaped deportation. In January 1943, OTOH, three transports arrived at Auschwitz with 22 deportees not indicated on the transport lists. Adler writes of “the confusion of the deportations” and the insufficiency of “the statistical record” that may have resulted. (pp 129-130) I don’t know if Rothstein’s name was caught up in the confusion or if Rothstein evaded transports on which he was supposed to travel. It does seem, however, possible that the chaos and possible chicanery that Adler describes could account for the scanty and contradictory information about Rothstein.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:52 pm

> As I've posted, I cannot locate S Rothstein's name on the lists of those taken from Theresienstadt to Treblinka or Minsk in fall 1942 transports.

But is there a full list with the 2000+ names? I haven't found any online.

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:04 am

I believe so (IIRC these transports had 1000 each), there are lists of those on most such transports at Yad Vashem's "Transports to Extinction: Shoah (Holocaust) Deportation Database" - mentioned here and here
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:19 pm

Adler estimates that

- 141,000 people were sent to and spent time in Theresienstadt prior to the end phase (over 150,000 counting end phase)
- mortality in the camp reached 33,500 (astonishing for a "showcase" and supposed "model" Jewish community! . . . especially when we consider the next two conclusions . . . )
- 88,000 people were "sent out of the camp" to a number of other places (Minsk/Maly Trostinets, Birkenau, Treblinka, Lublin ghettos, Riga)
- of the 88,000 sent elsewhere about 3,500 survived and over 84,000 were murdered

There's complexity to this - 1,600 released to Sweden and Switzerland as a result of the Kersten/Himmler/Red Cross initiatives, chaotic influx of KL prisoners in 1945, etc. But germane to the Final Solution, we can wonder why HDers like been-there try touting Theresienstadt as a plus for denial when the death toll, combining "attrition" and mass murder, was about 118,000 of 141,000!

(p 50)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:11 pm

Adler says that the Theresienstadt SS didn't generally affix destinations to transports sent from the camp but used vague formations like transport to Poland or to the East, "delivery to a different maintenance camp," or "labor deployment transport to the Reich territory." The internal camp body which made decisions on which Jews were to be included on transports was known as the "Poland Commission." (pp 240-241, 244)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:19 pm

As an aside, Adler has an excellent section on deportation orders and the deportation process, including arrival at Theresienstadt, and a very good chapter as well on the transports "to the East" and how they were conducted. The material on the former, deportations to Theresienstadt, includes sample orders and other valuable source material.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:45 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Adler says that the Theresienstadt SS didn't generally affix destinations to transports sent from the camp but used vague formations like transport to Poland or to the East, "delivery to a different maintenance camp," or "labor deployment transport to the Reich territory." The internal camp body which made decisions on which Jews were to be included on transports was known as the "Poland Commission." (pp 240-241, 244)


In this context it is perfectly clear how the destination of Mr. Rothstien may have been the subject of much confusion and dispute by those who remained in Theresienstadt. The results, post war, were differing accounts of his fate from differnt sources that relied, naturally, on different witnesses. That is just my theory.

Another thing, how does Nessie think that he was on Br? I have managed to look through the entire manifest and I could not find a Sigmund Rothstien anywhere.

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:25 am

As noted above, I didn't understand Nessie's point, and I also checked the transport list.

I should clarify one point: Sergey Romanov wrote about "2,000" on the transports. Indeed, according to Yad Vashem and Adler (pp 251-251) the September-October transports to Treblinka had close to 2,000 deportees on each of 4 transports. However, the lists of names posted at the Yad Vashem Deportations to Extinction site do not list 2,000 names. E.g., the 26 September transport is described as having 2,004 aboard, yet the posted names list goes only up to 1000. Here's a screen capture of the last page:

Image

So I poked around to figure out what's going on and where the other 1000 transportees' names are. The overview of the site warns that "Naturally the information provided here depends on the standard of that in the original and is, therefore, not always uniform in quality" and "in a specific transport one can find different lists of deportees compiled by various Nazi agencies, or the local Jewish community at the time," thus "Among the methodological problems is the question of the number of deportees. In some cases, in a specific transport one can find different lists of deportees compiled by various Nazi agencies, or the local Jewish community at the time. It is, therefore, impossible to reach a conclusive number." But I can't find anything specific explaining why the lists for these transports have apparently just about half the names they should.

Are there more complete lists available somewhere else - ones where we might find Rothstein's name?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:42 am

I don't know the source for this, but Siegmund Rothstein shows up on Br here: http://www.holocaust.cz/en/database-of- ... othstein/; this database has Rothstein coming to Theresienstadt on I/37 and transported out to Treblinka on Br. These are the only two transports they show listing Rothstein. I've written to this website for information on the sources used as the "Sources" link is dead.

Assuming that the source is good (e.g., one of the camp reports listing deportees), we still have to contend with the Minsk report. As noted above, there's no evidence for a Treblinka-to-Minsk transport, as claimed by HDers, taking Rothstein to Minsk - the likely explanation for the Minsk death report is the kind of confusion about destinations/rosters discussed above.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:38 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I believe so (IIRC these transports had 1000 each), there are lists of those on most such transports at Yad Vashem's "Transports to Extinction: Shoah (Holocaust) Deportation Database" - mentioned here and here

No. As I have pointed out quite a while ago on another forum, that list is missing about a thousand names.

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:35 am

Right-o, here and here.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:44 pm

I consider the Rothstein issue fully settled.

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:56 pm

I want to use it as an excuse to learn more about Theresienstadt. But no, Rudolf and Boisdefu have no case.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:21 am

Sergey_Romanov wrote:I consider the Rothstein issue fully settled.


can we agree that the Minsk report was based on confusion about the destination of his transport?

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:59 pm

To have a better idea of where Minsk came from, you'd have to look at the memorial books (Yizkor book of the Kitzingen community with names and biographic data of Jews who perished during the Holocaust, record #10760945 which has him IIRC deported directly from Kitzingen to Minsk, and Gedenkbuch Berlins der jüdischen Opfer des Nazionalsozialismus, Freie Universität Berlin, Zentralinstitut für sozialwissenschaftliche Forschung, Edition Hentrich, Berlin 1995, record #4129032 which has him transported from Theresienstadt to Minsk) and what the sources were for both entries, I think?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:28 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:I consider the Rothstein issue fully settled.


can we agree that the Minsk report was based on confusion about the destination of his transport?

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... anard.html

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:11 pm

Thanks, we discussed that one, plus the Rodoh thread touching on it, starting here. What's clear is that Rudolf and Boisdefeu took contradictory information and hooked together separate "streams," one of which was in error, to create a false narrative linking Treblinka and Minsk.

I'm now far past the coverage of transports from Theresienstadt in Adler, so I doubt I will learn more context/background from his book. It is easy to see how, if sources for either Minsk report on Rothstein came from Theresienstadt inmates, erroneous information was used.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:21 pm

The date on which transports were to leave Theresienstadt and the number of Jews on each were set by Eichmann and sent to the Camp SS (date, number, destination, guidelines and special instructions, Adler, p 243). The identities of those individuals included on a transport, however, were determined by the camp's Jewish leadership. Using data from a central registry of camp inmates, the Council of Elders made up a preliminary list of names, which was forwarded to the so-called Poland Commission. The commission finalized the list - the process involved exemptions allowed to Council members and horse-trading amongst departments (mostly for workers each wanted to retain). The final list, with reserves in case of shortfall at the time of loading, was then given to the Camp SS.

The Jewish camp leadership took care of assembling the deportees.

The Central Registry, an organ of the Council of Elders, typed up a numbered list which contained, for each transport, his/her arriving transport number (which was the number given each inmate on his/her arrival transport; first and last name; DOB, and ghetto address - the arriving transport number used the letter code of the arrival transport and the individual's unique passenger number; it was an official identifier for the individual in Theresienstadt, p 31). The lists for departing transports, with this information, were cut into strips, which were used by runners to distribute notifications to building and house elders in the blocks and barracks; the elders in turn notified individuals slated for transport. A standard form existed for this notification. (pp 244-245) The Central Registry maintained lists of all inmates in Theresienstadt in a "central index" and also a "transport registry." (p 182)

All reports to the SS and all internal camp records maintained by the Council of Elders and its departments had to be in German, even though most inmates spoke Czech (p 257).

Ok, why am I posting this? I've seen a copy of a Theresienstadt card held at Yad Vashem for Rothstein. (Thank you, you know who! Btw, I cannot post this card here as I don't have YV's permission to do so.) The card is a pre-printed form, with the text in Czech. It's described in that text as a card from the "Terezin" central index and as a transport card. In handwriting it has the name ("Rothstein, Siegmund"), birth date ("16.7.67"), address (left blank), departing transport ("Br - 959"), date of departing transport ("26.IX.1942" - this is stamped, not handwritten), and arriving transport ID ("3073 - I/37"). The anomaly here is that the card is pre-printed in Czech, not German; otherwise the information matches with Adler's description.

I'll post some more on YV source material as I work through it. To my mind, despite the language anomaly, the central index card showing Rothstein deported from Theresienstadt on 26 August 1942 on Transport Br, which went to Treblnka, answers the question I had about his inclusion on that transport. It should also be noted that neither of the sources at YV mentioning Minsk as a destination for Rothstein has a date for when Rothstein presumably went there - one of those sources lists him as "missing" (verschollen).

Again, this is rehashing/confirmation of information from earlier in this thread and at HC and Rodoh - with the additional support of the Theresienstadt file card, as I don't think I've seen the central index card mentioned before. I am confident that Rothstein was on Transport Br to Treblnka and that he perished in Treblinka.

(Also thanks again to you-who-copied me on the YV information!)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:45 pm

The anomaly here is that the card is pre-printed in Czech, not German


I wonder why that is the case.

I would like to get a good wager as to the source of the Minsk information, two sources named it, one of them inspired the other and it's just a case of chicken-egg. To find out which was first in this case would answer a lot of questions.

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:57 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:It should also be noted that neither of the sources at YV mentioning Minsk as a destination for Rothstein has a date for when Rothstein presumably went there - one of those sources lists him as "missing" (verschollen).

This document for a different community (Hameln) (p 13) explains that testimonies about the fate of those taken to Sobibor, Belzec, and Treblinka are lacking and that, on account of this lack of direct information, the term verschollen ("lost") was used for Jews taken to camps in the East and not located by 8 May 1945, taken as their legal death date.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:10 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:. . . the source of the Minsk information, two sources named it, one of them inspired the other and it's just a case of chicken-egg. To find out which was first in this case would answer a lot of questions.

Except for the fact that the two records differ, thus:

1. Zum Gedenken an die ermordeten Kitzingen Juden (1934-1945), Michael Schneeberger, Kitzingen, 1996:

p 21 - has Siegmund in a list of brothers and sisters - where Siegmund's data say "Mainstockheim (later Berlin)"; “murdered Minsk SCHOAH” no date - no reference to Theresienstadt
p 121 - similar list of brothers and sisters (one name fewer than p 21) - where Siegmund's data say only "Mainstockheim - Minsk SCHOAH” no date - no reference to Theresienstadt

2. Gedenkbuch Berlins der judischen Opfer des Nationalsozialismus, Freie Universitaet, Zentralinstitut fuer sozialwissenschfttlich Forschung, Hentric, Berlin, 1995

The Rothstein entry (p 1078) has birthdate and location of birth (Mainstockheim); Charlottenburg (his adult residence?); ”Alterstransport vom 04.08.42 Theresienstadt; Todesort: Minsk, verschollen.” In other words, this record indicates that Rothstein went to Theresienstadt 4 August and then from there to Minsk, no date (as an aside, this is contrary to Boisdefeu and Rudolf, with their insertion of a Treblinka stop).

Since the two sources vary, it is not clear that one is based on the other. Perhaps the Kitzingen "information" came from that community where those providing it were not aware of the destination of I/37 (4 Aug 1942) whilst the Gedenkbuch Berlins "information" came from someone different (in Theresienstadt?) unaware of the destination of Br (26 Sep 1942)? The lack of specificity, including dates for any transports, in the Kitzingen record is striking, as is the lack of a date for Rothstein's removal to Minsk in the Gedenkbuch Berlins collection.

In contrast, in addition to the transport card, Yad Vashem holds four records for Rothstein's transport to Treblinka: one record has dates and transport numbers for both his transport to Theresienstadt and his removal to Treblinka whereas three have dates only for both transports (the dates are the same in all four cases, 4 Aug 1942 to Theresienstadt and 26 Sep 1942 to Treblinka). One of the latter (Residentenliste) has spaces for 4 "deportations" but only the first two have entries - to Theresienstadt, Ghetto and to Treblinka, Vernichtungslager (there is no transport #3 from Treblinka to Minsk Vacation Resort as Boisdefeu and Rudolf would have people believe was the case).
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:35 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:As Nick pointed out elsewhere, at first destination A was more or less generally thought to be true (and thus entered the databases), then this conclusion was revised based on newer research and now the destination B is considered to be true (and also entered the databases). Hence we sometimes find the contradictions in the databases which were caused by the changing research results (revisionism!), not by the non-existent deportations to the East through the AR camps. Deniers are dumb.

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:40 pm

I know, I know, I read that earlier, for sure. The general frame can't explain all the the specific information about the different transports in this case, so I've kept poking around. For example, by poking around I've now seen a copy of a transport card for Rothstein. That said, the "Treblinka" records show improving information, but not where the various reports came from.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:54 pm

From Nick:

"PREVIOUSLY the autumn transports were thought to have gone to Maly Trostenets

SINCE THE 1980s and the work of Miroslav Karny, it was recognised that they went to Treblinka, a) 'cos of Glazar surviving and b) because there are no corresponding Fahrplananordnungen for Minsk.

Safrian persisted with MT in 1993, Gerlach ruled against this in his dissertation/book (Kalkulierte Morde) in 1999. Gottwaldt/Schulle say Treblinka too, and they are the definitive reference work used by e.g. the Bundesarchiv Gedenkbuch for transports from the Reich."

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:55 pm

So these other sources merely repeated what was the general belief at the time.

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:08 pm

that's actually helpful, but it still doesn't explain how it was that the fall '42 transports were thought to go to Maly Trostinets . . . I should have posted what HG Adler wrote on this: he divided the summer-fall '42 transports into those up to 29 Sep, which would include Rothstein's, and says that Maly Trostinets was by far the most common destination up to that point - with a couple going to Treblinka or IIRC Sobibor - he doesn't list each transport with details; the October transports he has going to Treblinka (I have to dig up the page reference . . . and Adler didn't give clear sourcing for this . . . his book is 1960, reflecting Nick's point)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:11 pm

pp 44-45
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:23 pm

I retract my eaqlier theory on the chicken and egg nature of the Budesarchive record and the Yizkor book from Kitzigen. As statmech pointed out, the former mentions Theresinstadt but the latter does not. It must be empathised (for Been-There's benefit if the RODOH thread is to be believed) that neither of what we will call "the Minsk records" refers to Treblinka or transport Br.

You have all done great on this little puzzle. We can now say what happened to this unfortunate man.

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Re: Scott & Rudolf: Monstrous Tag-Team Believer Takedown!

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:04 am

I looked up the passage in Adler on these transports (many of them the so-called transports of the elderly) after I got home tonight.

Adler’s phasing:

1) the beginning of the year 1942 saw transports to Izbica, Piaski, and other Lublin area “ghetto-like camps” for “sorting” - and the deported Jews were sent on from these places either to Majdanek or to Sobibor or Belzec (this is sourced)

2) Belorussia and especially Maly Trostinets followed Lublin area ghettos as the most important destination - of the 13 transports from 14 July through 29 September, Adler says 5 definitely went to Maly Trostinets, 5 others most likely went to Maly Trostinets, and 2 more probably went to Maly Trosinets (12 of 13) (cites a 1944 article in Aufbau and 3428-PS, which is Kube's July 1942 report to Lohse on White Russia, and mentions the big liquidation actions in Minsk at the end of July)
- possibly “one or another of the three transports in this group with an unknown destination ended up at Sobibor or Treblinka”
- the remaining transport went to Estonia

3) from 5 October to 24 October 5 transports went to Treblinka

4) on 26 October the first transport to Birkenau left Theresienstadt

Yad Vashem database lists 33 transports out of Theresienstadt in 1942 - and the database has a number of differences to Adler's 1960 summary. According to YV, there were the following 1942 transports:
- 3 to Riga (2 in Jan, 1 in Aug)
- 7 to ghettos in Lublin area (Mar and Apr)
- 1 to Warsaw ghetto (Apr)
- 2 unknown (May)
- 2 to Sobibor (both in Jun)
- 1 to Baranowicze (28 Jul)
- 5 to Maly Trostinets (7 Jul, 4 Aug, 25 Aug, 8 Sep, 22 Sep)
- 1 to Estonia (Sep)
- 10 to Treblinka (from 19 Sep through 8 Oct)
- 1 to Birkenau (26 Oct)

The major discrepancy is that 5 transports which Adler had going to Maly Trostinets, including Br, are now known to have gone to Treblinka. These went in September. There’s no Treblinka-Minsk route at all, of course. In 1960, therefore, one would have assumed that Rothstein, as he was on Br, went to Maly Trostinets - but Br is now known to have gone to Treblinka. (Arad, in BST in the 1980s, pp 141-142, repeats Adler's erroneous information - 5 transports only from Theresienstadt to Treblinka, in October.)

Adler’s sourcing for the summer-fall 1942 transports is opaque (his citations for the Treblinka transports are Grossman and Wiernik); without better sourcing - or Nick Terry's help - I don't know why the early presumption was that the September trains went to Maly Trostinets. Adler was in Theresienstadt from February 1942 until mid-October 1944.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927


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