Regarding the holes on Krema I's roof

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Aaron Richards
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Regarding the holes on Krema I's roof

Postby Aaron Richards » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:05 pm

I had an encounter with a denier on youtube today who dragged me back to arguing the holes on Krema I and made a new point which I will elaborate below.

Just to get started, as we all know, the Polish-Soviet commission did a piss-poor job at restoring Krema I's gas chamber. The sign outside the building shows visitors the differences between the layout of the building during its homicidal activity that lasted till 1943, and its present state today:

From my blog: http://i.imgur.com/duS3xZA.jpg

The combination of poor protocoling of their reconstruction activity, coupled with the fact that they knocked down one too many wall sections while leaving the cubicle and 2nd exit intact, coupled with the fact that we have differing eye-witness accounts as to how many holes Krema I really had while the Nazis gassed people there until spring 1943 is the reason why deniers have had a field day with this one.

Image

The above 3d model is Eric Hunt's that shows how the building interior looked like while it had been converted to an air-raid shelter, with the additional wall sections for added structural integrity, in 1944. The restorators knocked down (from left) the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th wall section, when they should have only knocked down the 3rd, 4th, 5th and cubicle instead.

To try and prove that the drilled holes on the ceiling are a post-war hoax rather than "re-opened, what the Nazis had sealed", deniers argue that the position of the 4 holes on Krema I's roof today aligns well with the layout/area of the "extended gas chamber" that is the result of one too many (2nd from left) wall sections being knocked down by the restorers, but is no longer symmetrical when superimposed on the TRUE area of the former gas chamber (as we know from 1942 blueprints).

See this new image, which the denier provided:

Image

Holocaust Controversies offered a good rebuttal to this denier argument, in that they pointed out the presence of 2 doors for the gas chamber in close proximity to one another (one leading to the crematorium, which was sealed when the Nazis turned the building into an air-raid shelter and is therefore not shown on Eric Hunt's 3d model, and reopened by the Soviets during restoration, and the other leading to the 'wash room'). Therefore, the (from right to left) 3 hole layout would be symmetrical even in the old gas chamber, and an additional, 4th hole could have been drilled right next to the 2 doors for additional zyklon lethality near this area to prevent the victims from trying to break open the doors. Makes sense to me, I accept this explanation.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ction.html

A 2nd explanation HC offered, is that the Polish-Soviet commission could have ended up drilling one hole too many after all, but it wouldn't change the fact that they did re-open the real holes which the Nazis had sealed.

However, this is part 2 of the denier theory, and the reason why I opened this thread to hear your input, as I have found no satisfactory counter:

"Furthermore, the reconstructed room shows a perfect match of 7.1 meter between upper right hole and the rear entrance cubicle wall, compared to the lower left hole and his left wall, while the rear entrance cubicle wall didnt even exist before the air raid shelter construction."
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Re: Regarding the holes on Krema I's roof

Postby Denying-History » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:44 pm

It's between 3 to 5 depending on who's analysis you take up Mazal et al argued the Soviet's missed a hole, Pressac argues both in technique and anatomy that 3 holes existed, and HC argues that two holes marked by Mazal seem off and most likely were not used.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Regarding the holes on Krema I's roof

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:16 pm

Wait, your denier didn't bring up the hospital across the street from the gas chamber?????

Wow, that fellow is off his game.

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Re: Regarding the holes on Krema I's roof

Postby Denying-History » Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:23 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Wait, your denier didn't bring up the hospital across the street from the gas chamber?????

Wow, that fellow is off his game.
They Hospital acted as a screen for the gas chamber (anatomy p.159).
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Regarding the holes on Krema I's roof

Postby Denying-History » Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:50 pm

Here is a diagram of the gas chamber / crematorium.

Image

Sorry for its poor quality.

When speaking about the number of holes and their location were looking at the following placements by Mazal et el:

Image

Mazal claims 5 holes were used but there are counterary interpretations for example Pressac who states in Anatomy 209:

It had a mechanical ventilation system that could extract the poison gas, and being a one-story structure, it provided an easy means of introducing Zyklon B into the room through three square stacks to be created on the roof.64

[...]

64. Warsaw, Photo taken by Stanislav Luczko, no. 5149.


This figure comes from "Technique" page 149.

Image

The photo that Pressac examined was this one:

Image

The image itself does not fit the negation its narrative of no holes as they are clearly marked out as was both recorded by the Soviet's and can be seen with ones own eyes.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Regarding the holes on Krema I's roof

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue May 02, 2017 5:54 am

Aaron Richards wrote:However, this is part 2 of the denier theory, and the reason why I opened this thread to hear your input, as I have found no satisfactory counter:

"Furthermore, the reconstructed room shows a perfect match of 7.1 meter between upper right hole and the rear entrance cubicle wall, compared to the lower left hole and his left wall, while the rear entrance cubicle wall didnt even exist before the air raid shelter construction."


There were most likely three holes (Grabner's testimony being of utmost value), second most likely possibility is 2 holes. Most of the more reliable witnesses are between these two versions (and there are plausible ways of how in presence of 3 holes some may have noticed or remembered only 2).

So the reconstructors made at least one hole too many. If the sizes on the pic are true, the reconstructors could have done it for the reasons of symmetry, by measuring 5.1 m from the side of the extended GC.
Last edited by Sergey_Romanov on Tue May 02, 2017 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Regarding the holes on Krema I's roof

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue May 02, 2017 6:05 am

As a side note, this shows Pressac's, ahem, quirky side. He just fantasized this "dance" story out of nowhere. Many thanks to him for being one of the first re-explorers (albeit the core was already known to Dawidowski, though not in the West), but his interpretations should be taken with a grain of salt.

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Re: Regarding the holes on Krema I's roof

Postby BRoI » Tue May 02, 2017 4:56 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:I had an encounter with a denier on youtube today who dragged me back to arguing the holes on Krema I and made a new point which I will elaborate below.

From my blog: http://i.imgur.com/duS3xZA.jpg


That photo's from my January 2012 visit to Auschwitz.

What about the Allied aerial photos of Auschwitz I, particularly the SAAF ones of 04.04.44, has anyone obtained HR prints from both the NARA and NCAP [as pics from all cameras weren't necessarily passed onto the Americans] to look for the ZB chimneys?
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Re: Regarding the holes on Krema I's roof

Postby Denying-History » Wed May 03, 2017 2:27 am

Isn't it possible that the chimneys were removed by then?

It also seems possible that they chimneys would never have shown up. Similar to the air photographs taken of Krema 2 & 3, considering what we actually see is discoloration of the roof.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Regarding the holes on Krema I's roof

Postby iwh » Wed May 03, 2017 7:15 am

Denying-History wrote:Isn't it possible that the chimneys were removed by then?


Well the drawings for conversion to bomb shelter were not written till September 1944...there was however a period between the last gassing and 1944 when the building was not used for gassing. Perhaps the chimneys were taken down during that time?

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Re: Regarding the holes on Krema I's roof

Postby iwh » Wed May 03, 2017 7:19 am

A close up of the August 1944 air photo does seem to show markings on the roof of krema 1 but it has to be admitted the photo is extremely grainy on magnification.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Auschwitz_I_%28Main_Camp%29_-_Oswiecim%2C_Poland_-_NARA_-_305902.jpg

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Re: Regarding the holes on Krema I's roof

Postby Denying-History » Wed May 03, 2017 8:11 am

iwh wrote:A close up of the August 1944 air photo does seem to show markings on the roof of krema 1 but it has to be admitted the photo is extremely grainy on magnification.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Auschwitz_I_%28Main_Camp%29_-_Oswiecim%2C_Poland_-_NARA_-_305902.jpg

You can find a clearer photograph in Ball's book on page 50-51:

Image

[August, 25th, 1944.]

The building was inactive gassing wise by July of 1943. So it seems safe to assume the Germans probably made an attempt to remove the holes early on.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Regarding the holes on Krema I's roof

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed May 03, 2017 8:22 am

The holes and chimneys were probably too small to be visible on aerial photos. After all what we see in Birkenau were neither holes, nor chimneys but rather the associated phenomena. If the conditions true for the roofs of the Birkenau Kremas were not true for the Krema I roof, then we shouldn't expect to see such phenomena with Krema I either. I don't know as far as the roof material goes, but it was different in regard to a very relevant statistic: the number of KI gassings was negligibly small compared to any of the Birkenau Kremas.

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Re: Regarding the holes on Krema I's roof

Postby BRoI » Wed May 03, 2017 3:47 pm

iwh wrote:A close up of the August 1944 air photo does seem to show markings on the roof of krema 1 but it has to be admitted the photo is extremely grainy on magnification.
Denying-History wrote:You can find a clearer photograph in Ball's book on page 50-51:

FYI, HR digital versions of the photos from 23 & 25 August are available online:
SAAF Sortie 60PR/0686 - 23.08.44 [photos from 1 camera]
SAAF Sortie 60PR/0694 - 25.08.44 [photos from 2 cameras]

K1 doesn't feature in the photos of 23 August.

K1 features in frames 3182 and 3183 in the photos of 25 August.

These photos show that the crematorium chimney had already been demolished. The 3rd and final chimney of K1 [obvs. not inc. the post-war one] was 15 metres tall, but no shadow is present, and there's just a black mark where the chimney stood leading to the underground flue to the ovens.

Just because the chimney was demolished, I don't think that give grounds for claiming that the nazis would have demolished the ZB chimneys and laid a new covering on the roof before they even decided to convert the building to a shelter. Pressac mentions that the Gestapo complained in c.June 42 that the previous chimney [no.2] was in danger of collapsing onto their offices. He also wrote that chimney 3 had been damaged in August 1942, just a few weeks after it was constructed. If the chimney 3 was damaged, was never thought to be needed again, and was possibly even considered a danger, this would explain why it was demolished before any plan to convert the building was drawn up.

I don't know what these chimneys [A,B,Y,Z] were for, but A & B are certainly perceptible on frames 3182 and 3183, whereas Y and Z are not, at least to me.

Image

I lean towards SR's view; the ZB chimneys are, just like chimneys Y & Z, too small to see on the aerial photos.
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Re: Regarding the holes on Krema I's roof

Postby Xcalibur » Thu May 04, 2017 5:51 am

Did anyone really think aerial recon from that era would produce?

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Re: Regarding the holes on Krema I's roof

Postby BRoI » Thu May 04, 2017 2:20 pm

Xcalibur wrote:Did anyone really think aerial recon from that era would produce?

Produce what?

Have you studied the photos of the 04.04.44, can you tell the forum something about them?
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Re: Regarding the holes on Krema I's roof

Postby iwh » Fri May 05, 2017 7:00 am

BRoI wrote:Produce what?


Actual signs of the Zyklon B insertion holes in Krema 1 I would presume.

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Re: Regarding the holes on Krema I's roof

Postby Xcalibur » Sat May 06, 2017 1:03 am

iwh wrote:
BRoI wrote:Produce what?


Actual signs of the Zyklon B insertion holes in Krema 1 I would presume.


Clairvoyant :D

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Re: Regarding the holes on Krema I's roof

Postby iwh » Sat May 06, 2017 1:18 pm

Xcalibur wrote:
iwh wrote:
BRoI wrote:Produce what?


Actual signs of the Zyklon B insertion holes in Krema 1 I would presume.


Clairvoyant :D


Not really... Just a tad obvious...
;)


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