More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Denying-History » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:08 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:3. My memory turns out not to be as bad as I thought.

Piper in Anatomy p. 169 says that acc. to the photos the wall of the undressing room contained openings similar to the ones in the GCs and suggests a possibility of its provisional use as a GC.


I wouldn't call it a "provisional" gas chamber perhaps the Nazis were intending to kill 3,855 in total. It may also explain why they had people undress outside in 1944.
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:09 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:But I don't understand the meaning.

Es war nicht selten - es galt übrigens auch bei den anderen Häftlingen als Sensation - dass der
Eine den Anderen einfach erschlug.

As literal as possible:

It was not seldom - it was by the way considered a sensation also among the other inmates - that one simply beat another to death.

Why "also"?


Maybe because the same might have happened among other inmates, not just SKs?
.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:15 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:But I don't understand the meaning.

Es war nicht selten - es galt übrigens auch bei den anderen Häftlingen als Sensation - dass der
Eine den Anderen einfach erschlug.

As literal as possible:

It was not seldom - it was by the way considered a sensation also among the other inmates - that one simply beat another to death.

Why "also"?


Maybe because the same might have happened among other inmates, not just SKs?

I don't think that's the meaning since this example is supposed to show their unique brutality.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:25 pm

Then maybe it points to that the SKs and their doings weren't as isolated as one might have thought?
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:40 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Then maybe it points to that the SKs and their doings weren't as isolated as one might have thought?

My question is what groups of inmates are meant.
Was it a sensation among the SKs - and "also" among the other inmates?

No - if it was not seldom, it was not a sensation among the SKs.

So what is the reference group?

At the moment I can only think that the confusion is due to an ambiguous and basically "broken" formulation. Maybe "auch" does not refer to the inmates (as it normally would if we read the text as is) but rather should be read as a unit with übrigens - "übrigens auch". In which case the meaning would be clear - "by the way, this was a sensation among the other inmates (but not the brutal SKs)".

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:15 pm

double `post
Last edited by Balsamo on Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:16 pm

Statmec:

" Just to take Sackar, that is not what he said. He said (p 98) "About half an hour, sometimes a whole hour" for up to 2000;"

My mistake, i wrote this by memory...the 1 to 2 hours refers to the the time lapse between the entering the undressing room and the opening of the gas chamber.
Later i changed my methodology and introduced data for each steps, and start all over as this first attempt was full of mistakes.

Chazan indeed said he worked in the undressing room, but later declared that "dragger" was his main job, which must be the reason why i picked this one. He repeats that many time. Which is strange as normally the dragger were not in the undressing room. But then, that is not so important.

Yes the consensus is indeed that sorting out the cloths lasted 2 hours, but that does not concern the time needed for the victims to undress.
Those in charge with the cloths would then go and help the "dragger". But given the space available in the beginning of the operation (the door was small and only two SK could start dragging the bodies at first)

Greif said about 30 minutes or so for groups of several 100s - and as one group began to go into the gas chamber, the next group would come into the undressing room. My recollection from WWWT and other sources is that generally, in contrast to what Greif said last night, women undressed first, then men. But the undressing was done in smaller groups that were then brought together in the gas chamber, as he described last night.


That is perfectly right (30 minutes per group), but we don't know in how many groups the 2000 victims were divided.
Strangely enough, there are two versions regarding the separation of sex, one saying that there were no division, the second that there was one. I tend to believe the second version, as the more logical, and because men and women were already separated on the Ramp. Strangely enough, some SK seem to be ready to swear to God it was not the case...



Statmec:

No, this is not correct. Whatever your calculation is, that is not what Greif was addressing. I asked specifically, because I was surprised by his mentioning 4 hours, and Greif answered specifically that he meant from arrival on the ramp, correcting me, until "nothing remained" (in my notes). He referred directly to the final disposal of the cremains and mentioned the Vistula and Sola. Further, Greif first brought up this estimate during his discussion of the final stage of disposal, when the ashes were taken to the rivers.


And you had the right to be surprised!
The Statement makes no sense at all, to such a point i could only conclude to some form of misunderstanding.
Not only never did Chazan suggest such a thing in its testimony, but neither did anyone other SK.
And of course, to state that 2000 could be sent to krema, undress, put in the gas chamber, gassed, removed and burned in 4 hours is just like stating that Lance Amstrong crossed the USA on his bike in two days.

Even considering the lowest estimates, like Sakar who speak of 1 hour to make people undress (that is from outside the Krema), the average duration for the gassing ventilation is around 40 minutes, that would mean that 2000 bodies could have been disposed of (dragged, hair cut, teeth removed, brought upstairs and cremated in 2h20...or 140 minutes! Or 14 bodies per minutes!

As i cannot believe that Grieff - who dedicates his life on this subject - could defend such a thesis, the only conclusion is that there must be some kind of "bug" somewhere.

Which illustrates the disappointment i have expressed above: How is it possible that we even are having this discussion by 2017!

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:39 pm

Balsamo wrote:How is it possible that we even are having this discussion by 2017!

On this we almost seem to agree: probably the reasons are because - 1) we are talking apples and oranges (undefined start points, no overall depiction of the process flow as you'd see on a workflow chart, a swim lane chart, etc); 2) we - those of us here - don't have to opportunity to sit down and compare and interrogate statements and writers; 3) there's likely not a single answer given the workflow and other complexities; and 4) we here have access to only part of what is known. I personally don't think I - or we here - have sufficient, clear information to say anything about this better than we said previously. Hans or someone might; if we had the opportunity to spend a couple hours with someone like Greif, we might could learn a lot more.

With this particular reference, to 4 hours, I can only say that I think it was an exaggeration for effect. One reason, in fact, I gravitate toward 24-30-ish hours, given the above caveats, is . . . what I read in Greif's book. IIRC D-H had estimated long end at 32 or 33 hours and Pressac had said a day. Greif's interviews seem to support these estimates FWIW.
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:08 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balsamo wrote:How is it possible that we even are having this discussion by 2017!

On this we almost seem to agree: probably the reasons are because - 1) we are talking apples and oranges (undefined start points, no overall depiction of the process flow as you'd see on a workflow chart, a swim lane chart, etc); 2) we - those of us here - don't have to opportunity to sit down and compare and interrogate statements and writers; 3) there's likely not a single answer given the workflow and other complexities; and 4) we here have access to only part of what is known. I personally don't think I - or we here - have sufficient, clear information to say anything about this better than we said previously. Hans or someone might; if we had the opportunity to spend a couple hours with someone like Greif, we might could learn a lot more.

With this particular reference, to 4 hours, I can only say that I think it was an exaggeration for effect. One reason, in fact, I gravitate toward 24-30-ish hours, given the above caveats, is . . . what I read in Greif's book. IIRC D-H had estimated long end at 32 or 33 hours and Pressac had said a day. Greif's interviews seem to support these estimates FWIW.


Why almost? At least regarding these 4 hours nonsense, even oil would agree with fire.
Had i been in the conference room, i would have been so pissed i would probably be kicked out but not before screaming for explanation.
It is not a subject that one can make some exaggeration for effect, especially not at this stage of knowledge...quite the contrary, it is about time to be rational. I mean, how many among the participants to the conference, came back home with the idea that Birkenau was able to dispose 2500 Jews in 4 hours??? Sorry it is worse, it is only for krema II (III)...
It is not a joke, really.

I had a look at codoh - yeah always bad idea, i know - the other day and there are quite a couple of threads about the SK which are insulting and based on such silly premises - what the historians are supposed to believe - like Jews waiting in line outside the gas chambers waiting for the first bunch to be gassed, as if gassing was 24h a day...How can people believe such things - even among deniers - what is the source of their belief?

It would not be a difficult task, tough, and we are not speaking apple and oranges, we have the SK testimonies, not only from Grieff, but also some memoirs and at least a big couple of videos of interviews available online. They said everything about the process, and gave enough clues to make at least an attempt to estimate the duration of this process. We have even one - Venezia - who gave a time table which should at least be reviewed and discussed.
I am not saying he is right, i am just blaming the lack of alternatives - Pressac one day is not an alternative, just like those who pretend that Birkenau was able to dispose of 20.000 corpses a day - I am open to propositions like 30-40 hours, but it should at least be explained/demonstrated.
And so much the knowledge of mister Grieff is probably huge, he still came up with this almost insulting 4 hours (although i am still giving him the benefits of the doubt regarding a potential misunderstanding), but the fact that an intelligent person like you understood the way you did, is quite irresponsible enough.

This is probably the last piece of bones Deniers have left to chew.
I can understand that post war atmosphere was prompt to exaggeration, i can even understand that the reality that Birkenau was supposed to gobbed 430.000 Jews in 9 weeks kind of coerced imagination to make it possible, but now that more research have demonstrated that there was no of those exaggerations to prove the killing of the victims, wouldn't be the right time to finally propose a plausible model?

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:33 pm

Well I can think of three ways in which we almost but don’t really agree.

First, if someone tries to convey an experience in a manner that is not literal, he or she may use a variety of rhetorical devices and do so without being dishonest or outrageous. These devices, like metaphor or hyperbole or metonymy or synecdoche, are meant to convey what was experienced or describe something in a more emotional, experiential manner, not to describe facts literally. Related to this, people use different devices with different audiences, depending on the audience’s levels of knowledge, the questions its members may have, etc.

Second, when someone speaks in a figurative manner, a listener might of course have different expectations for what is being said - in this case, we here are looking for a literal description of a process and its time factors - and be tempted to use non-literal statements to answer our "literal" questions, that is, use figurative statements for a purpose they weren’t intended and for which they aren’t useful. Thus, misunderstandings arise.

Third (and this point ties closely to the second point), sometimes information is conveyed in ways that simply differ as to premises and definitions. I say some action or step takes three hours but, without spelling it out, I mean, say, by the "undressing stage" the time from when the victims enter the undressing room in Krema III until that room is ready for the next group whilst the next witness gives thirty minutes for the "undressing stage," meaning the time it takes victims to disrobe and leave the room. Or I don’t explain the components and relationships among the parts of an overall process - and someone comes along and tries to stack them or lay them side by side or make other assumptive leaps. It takes back and forth to clarify terms and assumptions - and sometimes data collected for one purpose is not suitable to another purpose. To understand processes, we use flow charts and swim lane charts and other such devices; these have a rigor that helps us align assumptions, definitions, and data. We're lacking that here. As noted, Hans or someone may have enough data to have worked through these problems.

I think where we are, from what I’ve read here, with regard to the question you asked is, as I said, at the limits of our information and with apples and oranges. Again, I don’t doubt that more clarity could come in a back and forth to clarify assumptions and claims. Sadly, we cannot talk to the men whom Greif interviewed or spend two afternoons over tea and chart paper with Greif. Etc.

Even in my job trying to clarify language and “facts” often seemed like half of what I as a manager spent my time doing; try, if you haven't, making a spreadsheet comparing information gathered at various times without common purpose, with no defining direction and absent normalizing the data. That you’d go all ballistic about such normal issues in human communication suggests to me the need for a tall drink or fat joint - and of course breathing exercises. Chill, dude.
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:11 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:German text:

http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/pdf ... rman45.pdf

Die Leute des Sonderkommandos wohnten abgesondert. Man hatte mit ihnen auch schon
wegen des fürchterlichen Geruchs, der von ihnen ausging, wenig Verkehr. Sie waren immer
dreckig, ganz verwahrlost, waren ganz verwildert und ungemein brutal und rücksichtslos. Es
war nicht selten - es galt übrigens auch bei den anderen Häftlingen als Sensation - dass der
Eine den Anderen einfach erschlug. Das Erschlagen eines Häftlings ist kein Delikt. Es wird
einfach registriert, dass Nr. so-und-soviel gestorben ist. Auf welche Art jemand in das Jenseits
befördert wird, ist ganz nebensächlich. Einmal habe ich zugesehen, wie ein junger polnischer
Jude namens Jossel einem SS-Mann gegenüber das "fachmännische Morden" an einem Juden
vordemonstrierte, indem er den Juden mit der Hand, ohne irgendeine Waffe zu benützen,
ermordete.

I'm not sure both translation get the "sensation" part correct.


My first thought on that would be "Sensation"in the context mean something "surprising" "extraordinary", it means the french word "Sensationel" in the sense something that produce a feeling of surprise".
"Es galt urbringens als Sensation bei den anderen Häftlingen"... could be translated into " By the way, it was regarded as something surprising by the other prisoners" ...which is probably not how one would put it in English.

So the whole sentence:
It was not seldom - by the way, it was something that surprised the other prisoners - that one of them just beat another to death.
Given the context, i guess one could also use "came as a shock" / shocked / appalled...

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:09 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Well I can think of three ways in which we almost but don’t really agree.

First, if someone tries to convey an experience in a manner that is not literal, he or she may use a variety of rhetorical devices and do so without being dishonest or outrageous. These devices, like metaphor or hyperbole or metonymy or synecdoche, are meant to convey what was experienced or describe something in a more emotional, experiential manner, not to describe facts literally. Related to this, people use different devices with different audiences, depending on the audience’s levels of knowledge, the questions its members may have, etc.

Second, when someone speaks in a figurative manner, a listener might of course have different expectations for what is being said - in this case, we here are looking for a literal description of a process and its time factors - and be tempted to use non-literal statements to answer our "literal" questions, that is, use figurative statements for a purpose they weren’t intended and for which they aren’t useful. Thus, misunderstandings arise.

Third (and this point ties closely to the second point), sometimes information is conveyed in ways that simply differ as to premises and definitions. I say some action or step takes three hours but, without spelling it out, I mean, say, by the "undressing stage" the time from when the victims enter the undressing room in Krema III until that room is ready for the next group whilst the next witness gives thirty minutes for the "undressing stage," meaning the time it takes victims to disrobe and leave the room. Or I don’t explain the components and relationships among the parts of an overall process - and someone comes along and tries to stack them or lay them side by side or make other assumptive leaps. It takes back and forth to clarify terms and assumptions - and sometimes data collected for one purpose is not suitable to another purpose. To understand processes, we use flow charts and swim lane charts and other such devices; these have a rigor that helps us align assumptions, definitions, and data. We're lacking that here. As noted, Hans or someone may have enough data to have worked through these problems.

I think where we are, from what I’ve read here, with regard to the question you asked is, as I said, at the limits of our information and with apples and oranges. Again, I don’t doubt that more clarity could come in a back and forth to clarify assumptions and claims. Sadly, we cannot talk to the men whom Greif interviewed or spend two afternoons over tea and chart paper with Greif. Etc.

Even in my job trying to clarify language and “facts” often seemed like half of what I as a manager spent my time doing; try, if you haven't, making a spreadsheet comparing information gathered at various times without common purpose, with no defining direction and absent normalizing the data. That you’d go all ballistic about such normal issues in human communication suggests to me the need for a tall drink or fat joint - and of course breathing exercises. Chill, dude.


As a general rule, i agree with your remarks. If the conference was about an experience - well maybe it kind of was if the main topic was about his relationship with the survivors - or more broadly in other context like a conference on the environment, a conference on literature, etc.
Or even on whatever the subject, if this "rhetoric" is part of his speech.

Here we are dealing with a question asked by a member of his public. A precise question ask for a precise answer or just a "i don't know" or "we do not have the data to answer the question with precision".
Grieff's "4 hours" is not even an estimate, it is a baseless...i don't even find the appropriate word...

If the conference was about aviation and someone would have asked "Ho long does it take to get from NY to Paris" and the answer would be "about 30 minutes". What would be the message?

I mean your question was a great opportunity, and i forgot to thank for having asked it, was clear: you
asked about this, whether I had heard correctly that from entry into the undressing room, say 2,500 people brought in in maybe three or four groups, to grinding of their cremains, took just four hours.


You were not asking for an emotional rendition of any personal experience

His answer, as you present it, does not contain any emotional and poetical rhetoric, it simply says:
that four hours was "from arrival on the ramp to total destruction." Greif said that Saul Chazan, a Greek Jew whose interview is one in his book, had told him that directly.


No metaphors, hyperbole or metonymy or synecdoche in there, just BS, and certainly not what you, as audience, was expecting or waiting for.

So not only his answer is wrong, but he attributes this imbecility to poor Saul Chazan who never said that even implicitly and will pass for a lunatic. Here are some extracts from Chazan:

" Sometimes i had to work with people who'd aleady put in 12 hours straight and had actually finished their shift(...)the job was only half done, half the gas chamber was still full and i had to drag the bodies"

"Sometimes the transport had to wait on the railroad track."

To the question how did you drag the bodies, Chazan aswered:
" One after another, body after body, one, two, one two...It went slowly. It took hours"

And poor Chazan is supposed to have said to Grieff that the whole process from the ramp to the vistula only lasted 4 hours?

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:19 pm

Balsamo wrote:
My first thought on that would be "Sensation"in the context mean something "surprising" "extraordinary",

Well, sure. That was not the issue.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:45 pm

Balsamo wrote:If the conference was about an experience

I didn't see Greif at a conference but rather at a talk for the general public (which is why, as I mentioned earlier, there were misconceptions about Wannsee and German record-keeping in audience questions).

The amount of information Greif conveyed - judging from the reactions of my wife, who may know more about the topic than the average participant (there seemed to be a wide variety among the 250 or so people in attendance) yet was nonetheless overwhelmed - was like force-feeding with a firehose. I took Greif's goal to be to convey to a mostly not knowledgeable audience some basic knowledge of Birkenau and the Sonderkommando, and to do this via his research and discussions with the 31 men of the Sonderkommando whom he'd interviewed over decades. He did bring in some other sources (ones readers here would likely be familiar with) and made efforts to make the topic lively, gruesome as it was. He frequently apologized for having to provide graphic details and show graphic images.

I spoke to one couple in the parking lot after the talk - they missed the basic point, stated 2-3 times in introductions and also by Greif himself, that Greif is Israeli (they took that he was German) and were absolutely horrified by the overall impression his talk created. This was almost all new knowledge for them.

Judging from what I heard and took down, Greif did a very good job given the audience in conveying a lot of basic information - along with a sense of the experience of the SK men. He didn't, however, give a scholarly presentation, he was not talking (best I could tell) from notes, and he was taking questions as he went, with many interruptions for very basic "facts."

I am sorry to make so much of so many basic points but I think context is missing from your posts on this - and giant assumptive leaps present.

Balsamo wrote:Here we are dealing with a question asked by a member of his public. A precise question ask for a precise answer or just a "i don't know" or "we do not have the data to answer the question with precision".
Grieff's "4 hours" is not even an estimate, it is a baseless...i don't even find the appropriate word...

The appropriate word is "citation"; he cited Chazan when he gave the estimate and I mentioned Chazan, since he had, when I asked, and he mentioned Chazan in his answer. No direct quotations were given, just a reference to who'd told him this.

Balsamo wrote:I mean your question was a great opportunity, and i forgot to thank for having asked it, was clear: you
asked about this, whether I had heard correctly that from entry into the undressing room, say 2,500 people brought in in maybe three or four groups, to grinding of their cremains, took just four hours.

You were not asking for an emotional rendition of any personal experience

I did, perhaps without thinking about how doing so might have colored the reply, mention that he'd said it was Chazan's estimate.

Balsamo wrote:His answer, as you present it, does not contain any emotional and poetical rhetoric, it simply says:
that four hours was "from arrival on the ramp to total destruction." Greif said that Saul Chazan, a Greek Jew whose interview is one in his book, had told him that directly.


No metaphors, hyperbole or metonymy or synecdoche in there, just BS, and certainly not what you, as audience, was expecting or waiting for.

But he didn't quote Chazan verbatim or say what context Chazan said this in (as opposed to other parts of his testimony), etc. So, again, I think you're making too much of it. Chazan might have said, "In four hours, the first corpses were gone, pffft" and Greif recalled that number in trying to condense massive amounts of information . . . or Chazan might have asked a direct question about the full transport . . . or insert another scenario. I don't know and simply viewed it as a lost opportunity. Not being so animated about this detail, and feeling comfortable with the sense I do have, I'm not hyperventilating about it.

But, honestly, I doubt, in the context, that if I'd done a quick calculation (15 muffles, 3-5 corpses per muffle, 30-35 minutes per "batch" and so on), and asked about it, in that setting, that it would have been clarifying. Besides which, in such a setting, you don't really get "a question and two follow-ups, please." It would actually be kind of confusing to drill down too much on things like cremation capacity in Kremas II and III with a large group just hearing for the first time that there were 4 Kremas in Birkenau, they were configured differently II and III vs IV and V, no, the crematorium in the - new term - Stammlager did not play a major role in the Final Solution, there was an SS supervisor named Otto Moll in Birkenau, a burning pit during the Hungarian Aktion (news to many in the audience) was added to the cremation facilities . . . and so on . . .

Balsamo wrote:So not only his answer is wrong, but he attributes this imbecility to poor Saul Chazan

I have no reason, nor do you, to characterize his citing Chazan as an unfair attribution.

Balsamo wrote:who never said that even implicitly

You've seen the records of all the conversations which Greif had with Chazan? I haven't.

Balsamo wrote:and will pass for a lunatic.

Surely not among listeners who bear in mind the basics of human communication and miscommunication.

Balsamo wrote:Here are some extracts from Chazan: < snip >

As I said, one reason I think, if there's a simple answer to the question you asked, that the answer is "on the order of 30 hours give or take" is, ironically, Chazan's interview in WWWT. But, without knowing more context, what Chazan might have had in mind in other comments he made to Greif, etc, all I can say is that, taken as a response to the question you asked, 4 hours cannot be right.
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:44 am

Sergey_Romanov wrote:
Balsamo wrote:
My first thought on that would be "Sensation"in the context mean something "surprising" "extraordinary",

Well, sure. That was not the issue.


Sorry, did not notice the last sentence...so you are bother by the also...
Strangely reading the German phrase, auch did not ring any bell...It is commonly add without real necessity...but given the context, the "auch" insist that the authors were not the only one to consider the SK the way they do..."also among the other prisoner was it a shock to see how the SK behave...not just for us, authors of those lines. the sense then would be more like the engligh "too" or "as well" than also.

For example if someone tells me something and i answer: "Dass habe ich auch gedacht" would mean "i thought it too.

Will check it out...

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:06 am

@statmec:

Ok thanks for clarifying...Actually, i found Chazan mentioning 4 hours...concerning the time it took for the two teams together to clean up the half full gas chambers during his shift...which is of course probably not accurate, but then...it is nevertheless clear that he could not have declared that the process took 4 hours.

Even if among the hours of discussion they had together, Saul would have pronounce that, as he had contradicted this affirmation in depth during his interview, it would have been irrelevant.

"But, honestly, I doubt, in the context, that if I'd done a quick calculation (15 muffles, 3-5 corpses per muffle, 30-35 minutes per "batch" and so on), and asked about it, in that setting, that it would have been clarifying."

LOL...especially if Bob were in the room as well...
But then, as i explained in one post above, again, it was not all about the cremation capacities, especially for Krema II and III...but on how many corpses could be brought upstairs. It how it really worked downstairs that in my opinion has been neglected to a point that when one book detailed more in depth the process, like Venezia, he is basically not even taken into consideration and considered as well "just one witness" among others, ignoring that some said things that actually confirms Venezia sayings.

I am not hyperventilating, LOL, although yes i do complain about missed opportunity, and yes i have to accept the fact that Grief was not really interested in this matter, which is a pity as he was more than any in a position to clarify things once and for good.

On the other hand, i have been in such event myself, and remember how frustrating it can be when you know about the subject. Obviously, the lecturer has to adapt with the majority of his public, and such instances are not the most suitable for detailed discussions.

Anyway
thanks

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balmoral95 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:12 am

Let's cut to the chase without any more extraneous crapola:

Bring it down to the two essence of opposing points of view or stfu. Read enough BS about this in the last twenty years.

So step up, get it finished and let's move it along.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:19 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:
Balsamo wrote:
My first thought on that would be "Sensation"in the context mean something "surprising" "extraordinary",

Well, sure. That was not the issue.


Sorry, did not notice the last sentence...so you are bother by the also...
Strangely reading the German phrase, auch did not ring any bell...It is commonly add without real necessity...but given the context, the "auch" insist that the authors were not the only one to consider the SK the way they do..."also among the other prisoner was it a shock to see how the SK behave...not just for us, authors of those lines. the sense then would be more like the engligh "too" or "as well" than also.

For example if someone tells me something and i answer: "Dass habe ich auch gedacht" would mean "i thought it too.

Will check it out...
I don't know. Wetzler nowhere says that it was a sensation for him, just straightforwardly recounts the claims, so for me the referent of "also" is still missing.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:47 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:
Balsamo wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:
Balsamo wrote:
My first thought on that would be "Sensation"in the context mean something "surprising" "extraordinary",

Well, sure. That was not the issue.


Sorry, did not notice the last sentence...so you are bother by the also...
Strangely reading the German phrase, auch did not ring any bell...It is commonly add without real necessity...but given the context, the "auch" insist that the authors were not the only one to consider the SK the way they do..."also among the other prisoner was it a shock to see how the SK behave...not just for us, authors of those lines. the sense then would be more like the engligh "too" or "as well" than also.

For example if someone tells me something and i answer: "Dass habe ich auch gedacht" would mean "i thought it too.

Will check it out...
I don't know. Wetzler nowhere says that it was a sensation for him, just straightforwardly recounts the claims, so for me the referent of "also" is still missing.


Here the original text your posted:
Die Leute des Sonderkommandos wohnten abgesondert. Man hatte mit ihnen auch schon
wegen des fürchterlichen Geruchs, der von ihnen ausging, wenig Verkehr. Sie waren immer
dreckig, ganz verwahrlost, waren ganz verwildert und ungemein brutal und rücksichtslos. Es
war nicht selten - es galt übrigens auch bei den anderen Häftlingen als Sensation - dass der
Eine den Anderen einfach erschlug. Das Erschlagen eines Häftlings ist kein Delikt. Es wird
einfach registriert, dass Nr. so-und-soviel gestorben ist. Auf welche Art jemand in das Jenseits
befördert wird, ist ganz nebensächlich. Einmal habe ich zugesehen, wie ein junger polnischer
Jude namens Jossel einem SS-Mann gegenüber das "fachmännische Morden" an einem Juden
vordemonstrierte, indem er den Juden mit der Hand, ohne irgendeine Waffe zu benützen,
ermordete.


No, but the description of the SK is not attributed to the "other inmates", so if there is a need of a referent, it can only concerns those who are making this description.
In any case, if there is no referent, then it means that auch should not be understood as asking for one.
Auch can also in some context - this one seems to fit - be translated by "even".
Therefore: whatever action - even was a shock for the other inmates"...

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:50 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:Let's cut to the chase without any more extraneous crapola:

Bring it down to the two essence of opposing points of view or stfu. Read enough BS about this in the last twenty years.

So step up, get it finished and let's move it along.


Is there a way you can help understand what you just wrote:
what is extraneous crapola?
what is stfu?

:?: :?: :?:

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:44 pm

Just to illustrate the pity state of the debate among deniers:

https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3141

Funny to see that the actual best post has been written by Blake

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:06 pm

666isMONEY is back at it?!?!? Holy {!#%@} . . . used to post here, btw.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:30 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:666isMONEY is back at it?!?!? Holy {!#%@} . . . used to post here, btw.



I know her from FG’s blog, 666isMONEY was too crazy for Gen Baugher. That takes serious crazy.
Don’t make me come down there!!!!
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:48 am

She likes my tweets occasionally, lol.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:12 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I will type up notes on important points from tonight's talk by Gideon Greif. For now, I will tell you how he replied to my question about the labor process and time involved. First, the talk was attended by 250 people in an auditorium seating maybe 235. Greif didn't lecture exactly or, rather, he asked for audience questions as he lectured. This had the advantage that I was able, along with several others, to ask questions as he discussed the process - and the disadvantage that with an overflow crowd, drilling down was simply not possible.

Greif outlined the steps of the extermination process in Kremas II/III in some detail. He used a variety of visuals to help with this. Starting with the undressing room, he highlighted six different SK teams. As he finished up the process, he commented, "within four hours, nothing remained of the people who had been brought there." I asked about this, whether I had heard correctly that from entry into the undressing room, say 2,500 people brought in in maybe three or four groups, to grinding of their cremains, took just four hours. Greif said that I'd misunderstood: that four hours was "from arrival on the ramp to total destruction." Greif said that Saul Chazan, a Greek Jew whose interview is one in his book, had told him that directly.



Professor Gideon Greif comes to Greece on Thursday 18th of January, for the presentation of a three-volume book ('album') on Greek Jews during WWII, a study that, I have the feeling, will include everything, and of course, the SK subject in great detail. Testimonies, documents, every single thing, all gathered in one big and a little expensive nice publication.
I know some of the researchers and I have a bit of a knowledge about what they did all these years, searching for every bit of evidence (I'm proud I've contributed a little). It seems to be a great major piece of work.

If anyone wants to take a look, here's a google-translated nice piece by a major Greek newspaper
https://archive.is/HLqnY#selection-2925.75-2933.13

For the pictures not included in my 'archived' version of the article, see here in Greek:
http://www.avgi.gr/article/10812/864364 ... kes-lyses-
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:20 pm

Collectible, non-commercial :(
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:00 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Collectible, non-commercial :(


This one-volume collectible non-commercial publication probably is a kind of special version to be given as a gift for the honor of people involved and, from what I understand, it will include only some highlights of the main three-volumes book, like a summary with nice pictures or something. If it comes to my hands, which is of a high probability, I'll let here the members know. The main book will be in the bookstores and I guess it must be also sold on-line, I'll check and I'll update here. :idea:

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:56 pm

Main book - in Greek only? please say no, also in English :o
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:10 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:. . . the fact that many of them resisted, consistently and to the point of revolt. Their resistance - attempted escape, writing out evidence against the SS, their revolt - may not be your chosen form, but it was what they did and is IMO important to understanding the men in the squads. "Accept" is not IMO a useful word to use here.

The testimony of Alfred Wetzler (APMA-II, Statements Collection, vol 40, pp 28-29, account submitted in Oświęcim, Nov 30, 1963) suggests that in this thread I focused overly on the famous Sonderkommando revolt of 1944, ignoring a less discussed revolt attempt.

In his 1963 statement, Wetzler gave an account of a revolt planned in barracks 2 at the end of 1942 by prisoners on the night shift in the Sonderkommando. The revolt involved a mass break-out attempt. The plan was exposed to the SS by the day shift Kapo, a French Jew, who had been frozen out the plan. The SS surrounded the Sonderkommando barrack:
Fifteen of [the SK men] were brought to the Leichenhalle where I worked at the time. SS man Palitzsch personally shot these dozen or more prisoners with a pistol. . . . I learned later that [the informant] was killed by his fellow Sonderkommando members. . . . Some of the prisoners from this Kommando were shot in Birkenau, and some were gassed in the gas chamber at the crematorium at Auschwitz. A total of about 300 men perished. . . . From that time people began to say that the Sonderkommando prisoners would be liquidated every three months.

Wetzler named 3 of the executed prisoners from Slovakia: Scheiner, Spitzer, Wagner, with prisoner numbers. This attempted revolt came in the early history of the Sonderkommando, when, on account of the composition of the early, large Jewish transports, many Slovakian and French Jews were in the Kommando, the day shift having been added in, likely in the summer. [in F Piper, Jews in Auschwitz, p 222]

In the so-called Auschwitz Protocols, Vrba-Wetzler also mentioned this revolt, giving slightly different details:
On 17 December 1942, 200 young Slovak Jews were executed in Birkenau. They had been engaged as Sonderkommandos in the gassing and cremating crews. Their plan to revolt and escape was betrayed and the executions followed. Among those executed were:

Sandor Weisz
Oszkar Steiner
Aladar Spitzer
Ferenc Wagner
Dezso Wetzler
Bela Weisz

All these men came from Nagyzombat. Two hundred Polish Jews, who had just arrived from Makow, replaced the executed Sonderkommandos. We lost our direct contact with this "working place" after the elimination of the Slovak Jewish Sonderkommandos,

Greif discusses this revolt, and its suppression, along with two other group escape attempts that some month, on p 8; Czech, citing the Höss and Krakow trials, details this revolt on pp 277-278.

The point is that was not just the one revolt that some Sonderkommando members attempted, but that very early on members were also resisting the terrible duty imposed on them.

Wetzler’s observation that “people began to say” that the Sonderkommando unit would be subjected to periodic liquidation of the squad may partly help explain the persistence of that particular myth (I believe that Höss also said after the war that cyclical total liquidations of the squad occurred).
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:41 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Main book - in Greek only? please say no, also in English :o


I asked, probably later, high chances.

Some report from the event:

- Gideon Greif: The history of Greek Jews in Auschwitz remained unknown for years.
http://www.amna.gr/macedonia/article/22 ... o-Aousbits

Greek Jewish prisoners at Auschwitz were of a "unique destiny", a "live hell lived on Earth" and their peculiarities minimized their chances of survival, while the story remained unknown for years, said Professor of Jewish History at the University of Texas and chief historian at the Institute on the Holocaust «Shem Olam» Israel, Gideon Greif.

The speech of the University of Texas professor was at the presentation of the launch of George Pilihos' book, entitled "Auschwitz - Greeks - Numbers of the convicted to death" [Kleon: a phrase for those like moribund in a death row] yesterday evening at the Thessaloniki Concert Hall.

"The Greeks Jewish prisoners, men, women and children, had several elements that make them unique and different compared to all other prisoners, they had a unique destiny. They lived a hell on Earth. '

"In order to survive they have to speak German, Polish - and Yiddish would help - but they spoke only Greek or Ladino. This isolated them from other prisoners and they couldn't speak nor with them, neither with the German guards. They could not perform their orders and do their bidding, and that put them at great death danger. They had different mentality which was causing brutal treatment by the guards. they couldn't understand the unwritten law of the camp, conditions, they were friendly easy people, they couldn't be cunning in order to survive in Auschwitz. All these were minimizing their ability to survive, " Gideon Greif said , adding:

"This publication is a very positive contribution to the memory of Greek Jews who suffered so many tortures and executed by the Nazis. The Jews of Greece deserve such a written source and such historical documentation because in this way, they will not be forgotten easily. "

"For years and years, there was complete ignorance of the Greek Jews subject in History studies. It was almost unknown the whole issue, the Greek presence in Birkenau. Even educated people ignore this aspect of the story, and this aspect causes this intolerable injustice. We are here, with Mr Pilihos to fix this, to correct it, " Gideon Greif said.

"The Final Solution in Greece resulted in the complete destruction of the Greek Jewish community that flourished in Greece for many generations. Within months the whole community was exterminated, "Mr. Gideon Greif continued and noted:

"This release is a milestone and a memory performance in men, women and children who were killed because they were born Jewish. George Pilihos wants to reduce this gap in Greek historiography, enriches knowledge for Greek Jews in Auschwitz and reveals what happened between 1943 and 1945 in Auschwitz. We are grateful to the writer because he and his work represent the voice of thousands of Greek Jews who can not speak, who remained silent for decades. The author is their voice. "

For his part, the head of the Greek Delegation to the International Alliance for the memory of the Holocaust and Special Secretary for Cultural and Religious Diplomacy Stathis Lianos Liantas pointed out the structure of the book of Pilihos, of the modules, the data presented for the death squads , the Auschwitz structure, organizational operation, the documents for the "Final Solution", records with the data of victims, etc.

[Kleon: From this point on, it's pure Google translation, please forgive me] :)

"According to the Auschwitz archives, got there, 55 577 people from different regions of the country. Of these, 42 561 were killed soon arrived at the camp. Of the 13 016 who have been able to work around 1,800 survived, as shown in the import figures and bracket figures given by the camp, "said Mr. Lianos Liantas.

In the history of the heroic bishop of Zakynthos, on occupation, who refused to give even a name, "only his own" to the list of Jewish residents of the island asked the occupying forces, reported the Dodona Metropolitan Chrysostomos.

Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Zakynthos the narrated himself in today's metropolitan Dodona, when at the age of fifteen years the latter went to the island to usher in the metropolis.

"The small Zakynthos has zero victims at Auschwitz" had told the then Metropolitan of Zakynthos in today's metropolitan Dodona. "We all tried that other time, many, others less, but Chrysostom for everyone. Spared the Jews of Zakynthos, two hundred and sixty, "added the bishop Dodoni.

He stated that the occupation of the island mayor asked the Metropolitan Chrysostomos - when he confessed his intention - to add his name beneath that of the bishop in this list, although the mayor was appointed by the occupation government.

"Your Eminence, allow me to put myself in my own signature?" The mayor had asked. "Of course, my Luke" had responded to the heroic despot.

"Let's hear the message of our Patriarch" concluded the bishop Dodoni, referring to the video message from Mr. Bartholomew which had been raised earlier and the installation of anti-racism and tribalism and welcomed the audience in Hebrew.

Talking about his work, the curator and author of issuance George Pilihos stressed that the idea began when, as Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis told him that he had granted to the Greek state in Block 18 of Auschwitz there to house a memory report. "Let's make an album," suggested Mr. Pilihos.

Since then, in 2007, after the ministerial office of Ms. Bakoyannis, the writer continued to work in search of files, data, often visiting Auschwitz and seeking information on museums in the US, Germany, Thessaloniki, etc.

"The project would not have been complete without the spiritual and moral support of the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, the confidence of the president of CCI Moses Constantine and now, ten years later, with the decisive contribution of the Minister for Digital Policy, Communications and Media, Nikos Pappas, finance the Post Office and the consent of Leo Saltiel, the current President of KIS 'he said. Pilihos.

"I want to show what man does to man. The lessons are not uniquely identified on man and his behavior. They concern the entire society, how is, how and how motivated, how resist "continued Mr. Pilihos and concluded:" These messages are topical nowadays. "

historical memory conservation messages and use as a "bulwark" against the resurgence of ideologies and practices of racism and tribalism

Messages for the need to preserve historical memory and use as "dyke" and "tool" against the resurgence of ideologies and practices of racism and tribalism, sent during the presentation of George Pilihos book, entitled " 'Auschwitz Ellines- Number condemned "yesterday, the Thessaloniki Concert Hall.

Foreign Ioannis Amanatidis minister in writing of the message, stressed that the current Greek Government, signed Decree, the 2017 legislation paved the way for the creation of the Museum of the Holocaust, near the site of the martyrdom of the Thessaloniki Jews, the Old Railway Station.

"Thessaloniki fulfills a historic debt and becomes the third European city which will feature Holocaust Museum, after Berlin and Paris, while similar centers operating in the United States and Israel," said Mr. Amanatidis

"A voice that will act as a shield for Democracy, teaching and simultaneously awakening the next generations," continued Mr. Amanatidis and added: "Not to forget ever to have everything in us humans, as a supreme value."

The Ambassador of Israel in Greece rpm Ben -Ampa in writing the message, personally thanked the Minister for Digital Policy Nick Pappas for the issue of research, and total government for its initiatives, to present the issue in Thessaloniki, the eve of International Day memory of the Holocaust, as well as educational initiatives to more accurately reveal the side of this story. "These are very important measures to" combat racism Semitism "underlined Ms. Ben -Ampa rpm.

"Thank you, Nick (Pappas) and you and the Prime Minister. Tsipras, for your efforts," said the ambassador of Israel. He also thanked the President of Parliament, Nikos Voutsis, Education Minister Costas Gavroglou and the curator of the project George Pilihos. Ms. Ben rpm -Ampa added that '' as daughter, father survived the Holocaust "attaches great importance to the" personal stories of people who survived the extermination. "

"These testimonies are real, original, historical documentation, which will remain in the future when the survivors will no longer exist between us," he said in the message, Mrs. Ben -Ampa rpm.

"We hope such work laborious, substantial research and excellence as George Pilihos help us never forget what was Auschwitz and what it means for the world history, but also never to relive and nowhere it passed our parents," said the president of the Jewish Community of Thessaloniki, David Saltiel, while former president of the Central Jewish Council, Moses Constantine added inter alia: "the book of G.. Pilihos becomes important as it presents a combination of p lirotita, where man can reach, if uneducated, left to hate speech. "

"Significant memory chip in a particularly dark aspect of human history" featured version, the Thessaloniki Mayor Yiannis Boutari. "This presentation reflects the crime size made since the Nazis and simultaneously becoming both the human geography of the Greek Jews," continued Mr. Boutari, noting that it is "still topical, as we see across Europe to emerge Nazi formations" and said: "You all need to intensify our efforts to preserve the historical memory, which is our most important weapon against fascism. "

"As mayor of this city I am pleased to bring to the surface the historical memory of this city. And we are still at the beginning, "he said. Boutari.

"Thessaloniki has everything to gain by recognizing its past," said the chairman of a bipartisan parliamentary committee to enforce the German debts and MP of SYRIZA, rose Mitafidis. Featured "adikaioto" request, "the emergence of the history of occupation combined with physical rehabilitation of victims of Nazism from the modern German state" and among those brought as an example the "ransom" paid then the Jewish community Thessaloniki to the occupying forces to save the male members of the predatory, forced labor.

"Such a gesture will be an act of historical justice but also embankment political weapon against the supporters of Nazism and racism, against the historical revisionism, equating perpetrators with victims, collaborators with those who resisted fascism."

On his part, the deputy director of the State Museum of 'Auschwitz - Birgkenaou, Andrzej Kacorzyk noted the current operation and effect of the space of this sad memory to its guests and emphasized:

"Thousands of visitors learn about the terror," hear "the voices of the victims, their testimonies about the crimes of the German Nazis and all those suffering Jews, Russians, prisoners of war. There are many places that remind us of the tragic fate of the Greeks, maps, train tickets printed and transferred to the bloc, which made experiments at prisoners, among them women from the Jewish community. And finally the most important left the ruins of the crematoria ?. ".

"Today I had the opportunity to visit places in Thessaloniki linked to the history of the Holocaust including the station where they started the trains to Auschwitz," he said. Kacorzyk and added:

"Such places are crying and remind us of the tragedy of European Jews. I would like to thank the survivors, the author. The publication is dedicated to Greek killed in 'Auschwitz, not only as a historical document, but as an invitation to a world of freedom, dignity and respect. "

Iekdosi book was the contribution of the Greek Post SA The president of the administration of ELTA SA Euphrosyne Stavrakis explained why the post office issued this research.

"It is incumbent ELTA to listen, to act, to create. Listen to the agony of a better day concern for performance Fair. In short, the dividend represents us not complacent. To wake up, "said Ms. Stavrakis.

"The facts belong to those sizes that do not fit in our minds," continued Mrs. Stavrakis. "It is punch in the stomach and food for memory, this record of events. A punch, which today has more value as Europe faces in every corner of the resurgence of neo-Nazi formations. " "We have to be alert, ready to deal with any such arrangement," added Mrs. Stavrakis and continued:

"Every word that is written about the Nazi crime is a vehicle to never forget what took place then. In memory, then, for this weapon will fight. It is the only ally we have against monsters. That is why this book has superiority. For this and has an important role to fulfill. That the Post Office had a duty to contribute to this issue. "
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Denying-History » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:40 am

A pure saint. Thanks for all the stuff you post btw Kleon, definitely useful, I don't have much on the Greek experience so it definitely helps when you pop in with these articles.
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:07 pm

Somewhat related: according to Pery Broad, SS man Franz Hössler was put in charge of the effort to exhume and burn buried corpses at Birkenau after the time of the Katyń revelations in spring 1943. Broad said that about 20-30 "reliable" SS were to oversee a prisoner "special squad" of "several hundred Jews from all the countries occupied by the Germans. They worked in two shifts. Many prisoners refused to do the work and were liquidated with pistol shot." (Soviet Prisoners of War in Auschwitz, VOM 11, p 81)
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:13 pm

I think this interview hasn't been posted, I checked a little, seems not, -anyway I think it worth it, this sentence by Dr. Greif really hit me: «A revolt requires thinking by free people, not of slaves, and I think that the spirit here was of liberation from oppression».

A revolt that was actually a declaration.
- The revolt of the Sonderkommando in Auschwitz is also a mystery: a hopeless uprising. They knew they didnt stand a chance. How do you understand their sheer motivation to rebel?
They knew, yes. Its a revolt that says, effectively, This far and no farther. I say this, because we found echoes of their thoughts in the Auschwitz scrolls, the secret writings of a group from the unit that documented their inner lives. They wrote explicitly, Our hands will not shed the blood of the Jews of Hungary. They understood that this huge community of some 800,000 souls was about to arrive, and they could no longer cope.

Consider what that revolt required: making decisions, organizing, compartmentalization, acquiring weapons, a logistical plan. They had to beware constantly of betrayal, informers. At one stage, the person who was supposed to be the commander of the revolt was executed, shot by the commandant of the crematoria, who suspected him, and they had to start over. A revolt requires thinking by free people, not of slaves, and I think that the spirit here was of liberation from oppression. This is an unknown story of heroism that needs to be exalted. Including the heroism of Jewish women in Auschwitz.


And many more in ...

- The untold story of the Jews forced to work in Nazi death factories: Historian Gideon Greif has dedicated his life to clearing the name of Auschwitz's Sonderkommando and exposing the 'pure Jewish heroism' of their revolt, 25/02/2017

Pay-walled, but ...
https://archive.is/XmIEm
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:47 pm

thanks

from Kleon's link and relating to this:
As Shaul Chazan, one of the Sonderkommando survivors, told me: At 9:30, a transport of 3,500 people would arrive, and four hours later, not a trace of them remained – as though they had never existed. [Chazans testimony appears in Greifs We Wept Without Tears; Yale University Press, 2005.]

I cannot explain these maths any better reading this than what we speculated earlier, or why Grief accepts them; but this statement mirrors what Greif said in the talk I heard - except that I noted down 2,500, not 3,500. As with Venezia's recollection, perhaps Chazan is simply mistaken and represents something of an outlier.

Btw Greif also said this when I heard him speak: "I would not have been capable of doing it even for a minute. I would have killed myself on the spot."

Maybe Hans or Sergey or Kleon will know about this. I think I've read this before. Greif says, ". . . the Germans, in their official documents, dont mention the revolt. Not by so much as a word. They were simply ashamed." I don't think Höss, in his memoir, after his characterization of the SK (passive collaboration, "dumb indifference," brutalized, "never stopped eating" even among the corpses), mentions the revolt. OTOH (maybe I am mixing things up) I thought that there might have been SS documents obliquely referring to the revolt (via mention of those killed? - I dunno). I am pretty sure Polish/camp underground reports from fall 1944 referred to the revolt.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby BRoI » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:56 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:OTOH (maybe I am mixing things up) I thought that there might have been SS documents obliquely referring to the revolt (via mention of those killed? - I dunno). I am pretty sure Polish/camp underground reports from fall 1944 referred to the revolt.


The Auschwitz Sonderkommando Revolt in Contemporary Documents
Author: Hans Metzner
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/the-auschwitz-birkenau-sonderkommando.html

Mattogno features a least one further in his 2018 book on Nyiszli [p.259f]
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/37-aadea.pdf
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:33 pm

thanks, something there seemed off . . . (I did find where I read about a total absence of German documents pertaining to the revolt before - in Greif's intro to WWWT . . . )
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby BRoI » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:06 pm

Hans wrote:As far as I'm concerned, there is sufficient evidence to consider that the Sonderkommandos were likely called out in Mauthausen.


Further "evidence" supporting/contradicting your view is found in a draft version of Ziereis' confession:
Ziereis draft death-bed confession wrote:
Gruppenfuhrer GLUCK was that man who gave the order that the whole staff having been working in the Mauthausen crematoria had to be sent to Gusen camp where they had to be liquidated by shooting in the neck for the only reason because some of them had already been working in Auschwitz crematoria and could have given information about these crematories.

There was a secret order that the staff of the crematoria had to be liquidated every three weeks. It concerned all prisoners without any exception who worked in the crematoria. There was also an order to liquidate all doctors having been working i the hospital. I refused to do so. This order was given by SS Standartonfuhrer LOLLING to all SS doctors. But I have forbidden and prevented this order when it was made public.



From a different draft:
Ziereis draft death-bed confession wrote:
In the lastest day just before the end of the war the crematorium crews from Mauthausen, Gusen were murdered by the SS Hauptsturnfuhrer Bachmayer because they knew too much.



From the supposed final version of his confession:
Ziereis finalised death-bed confession wrote:
Gluecks ordered that the inmates, occupied in the crematory, were to be relieved at least every three weeks and to be killed through shots in the neck, because they know too much.
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.


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