More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:19 pm

I should also mention that in their recent book, Matters of Testimony, Chare and Williams discuss the 4 SK photographs, with particular attention to the photograph of the women, with concern for retouching/"improvement" and iconic symbolism for the genocide as a whole, given on pp 186-189. They discuss the fourth photograph, taken near in time to that of the women, on pp 204-207.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:22 pm

nickterry wrote:


I'm pretty sure Hans posted the link just because this is a thread about the Auschwitz Sonderkommando, and not to comment on anything you've previously posted. StatMech and others do the exact same thing on other threads.


Thank you so much, Hans and Nick. This is priceless.

Maybe I've mentioned it before, the manuscript was read in a special ceremony in my hometown and Nadjari's hometown Thessaloniki, I think it was in April, with his daughter present:
http://x2t.com/insidestory

Also on the same subject:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27844&p=567351&hilit=Thessaloniki#p567351
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27844&hilit=Thessaloniki&start=120#p573281
Last edited by Kleon_I XYZ Contagion on Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:27 pm

Statmec:

As to your notion that there are "no testimonies" about this photograph, please at the same YV link see the testimony excerpt from "former Sonderkommando member Alter Fajnzylberg" who said, in part,


What i meant was that there are no testimonies i can remember (which is relative) that describes what is seen on the photo, and not on the taking of the photos.

If you wish to negate or criticize such sources, you first need to show familiarity with them - not pretend they don't exist.


Where did you read that i negated or even criticized the sources ???
When i just wrote:
I don't dismiss them, but they are not related with the issue.


There i two things in those few words. Being mistaken when saying that the picture was more probably of the Bunker (where the standard procedure was to undress people outside the Gas chamber), and dismissing the photo as a whole, and second, i outline its irrelevance in the issue being under discussion, for the reasons already explained.

I admitted my mistake to scrmbgg above, here:
But then you are right, the location of Bunker II would have been too far i guess.
I might then be the wood near Krema V, but then it was not normal procedure.
As i focused on Krema II and III, i will look into it.


i just pointed out that no testimonies i am aware off openly declare that SK were involved in any action outside the facilities, hence no real testimonies explaining this picture.
2/3 of my interview, and Welbel still talks about victims being introduced to Krema IV, in the undressing room then pushed into the gas chambers. I only insisted that this seems to be the standard procedure there also. Why such an Aktion - people getting undressed outside the Krema V - took place in August 44 is unknown to me.

Now i admitted from the start that i was not a specialist of the gas chambers before getting involved in the SK.
A discussion on those photos would have some merits (i do not negate that, but i fail to see their relevance with the killing process that took place at Krema II and III, and the duration of this process.

So maybe we could leave this picture for later, and get to the points i have raised... or not, your choice...
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:29 pm

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:
nickterry wrote:


I'm pretty sure Hans posted the link just because this is a thread about the Auschwitz Sonderkommando, and not to comment on anything you've previously posted. StatMech and others do the exact same thing on other threads.


Thank you so much, Hans and Nick. This is priceless.

Maybe I've mentioned it before, the manuscript was read in a special ceremony in my hometown and Nadjari's hometown Thessaloniki, I think it was in April, with his daughter present:
http://x2t.com/insidestory


I remembered you posted the link of the translation, i hope i did not forget to thank you for that. If i did, thanks. ;)

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:40 pm

Balsamo wrote:Where did you read that i negated or even criticized the sources ???

When you wrote a) that the photograph in question must have been taken at one of the bunkers, contrary to the sources, and b) that no testimonies about the photograph exist.

Balsamo wrote:When i just wrote:

I was referring to what you originally wrote, and clear to say so, not this latest position.

Balsamo wrote:Being mistaken when saying that the picture was more probably of the Bunker (where the standard procedure was to undress people outside the Gas chamber), and dismissing the photo as a whole, and second, i outline its irrelevance in the issue being under discussion, for the reasons already explained.

Study of the photos themselves, and reading of the few primary sources and the secondary material on the photos, would have avoided all this. That was my original point - and I reiterate what scrmbldggs wrote, that the discussion has gotten terribly mixed up because of skipping over, IMO, simple things.

Balsamo wrote:no testimonies i am aware off openly declare that SK were involved in any action outside the facilities, hence no real testimonies explaining this picture.

You dismissed the photograph as relevant to Krema V then because of your lack of knowledge of the sources, not because, as you wrote, they don't exist. Which is fine. But it casts doubt on the success of the discussion, frankly.

Balsamo wrote:So maybe we could leave this picture for later, and get to the points i have raised... or not, your choice...

I've already said what I have to say about the other issues, I only jumped in to point out that sources exist to explain what you're struggling with.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:45 pm

Balsamo wrote:[...]
A discussion on those photos would have some merits (i do not negate that, but i fail to see their relevance with the killing process that took place at Krema II and III, and the duration of this process...

My including evidence of SKs receiving victims (outside) is based on my (uncertain) understanding that newcomers at Krema II and/or III also were made to collect/wait outside in a wooded area and where their (the SK's) help in keeping them calm would seem useful and in line with some testimony. Again, that doesn't mean to exclude the possibility that the reported reception was undertaken within the building(s) between undressing and entering the chamber(s).


As always, corrections welcome!
Hi, Io the lurker.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:31 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Balsamo wrote:[...]
A discussion on those photos would have some merits (i do not negate that, but i fail to see their relevance with the killing process that took place at Krema II and III, and the duration of this process...

My including evidence of SKs receiving victims (outside) is based on my (uncertain) understanding that newcomers at Krema II and/or III also were made to collect/wait outside in a wooded area and where their (the SK's) help in keeping them calm would seem useful and in line with some testimony. Again, that doesn't mean to exclude the possibility that the reported reception was undertaken within the building(s) between undressing and entering the chamber(s).


As always, corrections welcome!

Unless we assume that members of the Krema V SK managed to pass the camera to some of those SK working at the reopened bunker, and then the men who testified about the photographs forgot to say that they had managed to pull this off, all 4 photos were taken at Krema V . . . and thus need to be evaluated with Krema V in mind . . . and Krema V with the SK images in mind . . .

Świebock, in the 5 vol Auschwitz Museum camp history, quotes the contemporaneous note mentioned above which said, "The other picture [the photo of the women] shows one of the places in the little woods, where people undress supposedly for a shower, and then go to the gas." (vol IV, p 278) This note seems to imply that the area photographed was not the only place in the woods used for undressing.

My understanding is probably the same as yours, that the typical procedure in Kremas IV and V made use of the ground-level undressing rooms, from where the victims were led through the corridor in the buildings to the gas chambers (vol III, pp 167, 172) The Dragons described this procedure in their interview with Gideon Greif (pp 150-154). They also describe the rather overwhelming nature of the Hungarian transports - the long shifts - and the use of pits dug behind Krema V for cremation and reopening of the bunker at that time (pp 163-164) without mentioning any other specific changes in procedure in the Kremas (Shlomo Dragon also testified about the dressing room for the Höss trial, quoted in Voices of Memory 6, p 64). Eliezer Eisenschmidt told Greif (p 227) about the undressing room: "Entire families came to the inner yard of the crematorium [V] and they also went into the room together to undress." The layout and process are also described by Pelt, The Case for Auschwitz, pp 199-202. And so on. In all these primary and secondary sources the standard procedure, utilizing the dressing room, is described.

Hans will know better than I do whether the large number of victims brought to the Kremas during the Hungarian transports or something else is known to have caused variations in the procedures from time to time. Remember that 4 years ago Hans already wrote, based on his extensive knowledge of Birkenau, that "It is also possible that there was a second site for undressing [near Krema V] more close to the security fence and that the naked people were first sent to a collecting point in between before marching to the gas chambers."

In that we have a contemporary note mentioning "one of the places in the little woods, where people undress supposedly for a shower, and then go to the gas," and a photograph of the naked women outside Krema V that accompanied it, we need IMO to think, as Hans has done, about this evidence in terms of what went on at Krema V, not move the location of the scene in the photograph to the bunkers.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:43 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balsamo wrote:Where did you read that i negated or even criticized the sources ???

When you wrote a) that the photograph in question must have been taken at one of the bunkers, contrary to the sources, and b) that no testimonies about the photograph exist.

Balsamo wrote:When i just wrote:

I was referring to what you originally wrote, and clear to say so, not this latest position.

Balsamo wrote:Being mistaken when saying that the picture was more probably of the Bunker (where the standard procedure was to undress people outside the Gas chamber), and dismissing the photo as a whole, and second, i outline its irrelevance in the issue being under discussion, for the reasons already explained.

Study of the photos themselves, and reading of the few primary sources and the secondary material on the photos, would have avoided all this. That was my original point - and I reiterate what scrmbldggs wrote, that the discussion has gotten terribly mixed up because of skipping over, IMO, simple things.

Balsamo wrote:no testimonies i am aware off openly declare that SK were involved in any action outside the facilities, hence no real testimonies explaining this picture.

You dismissed the photograph as relevant to Krema V then because of your lack of knowledge of the sources, not because, as you wrote, they don't exist. Which is fine. But it casts doubt on the success of the discussion, frankly.

Balsamo wrote:So maybe we could leave this picture for later, and get to the points i have raised... or not, your choice...

I've already said what I have to say about the other issues, I only jumped in to point out that sources exist to explain what you're struggling with.



Look,
There was a time when you tried the best you could to go through my broken english and did you best trying to figure out what the hell i was talking about.
Well this is clearly not what you doing now.
It is quite a pity as the discussion was NOT about this picture. This picture is irrelevant to the discussion. I still don't get why scrmbgg posted it after a post when i was trying to figure out if Venezia time table has some merit or not. Then suddenly, there is an unusual activity on this thread, but not related to the topic.

But then, what should this picture tells us in relation to the discussion? Does it give a clue on how long the killing process was taking?

So you welcome to insist that "Bad and ignorant Balsamo" made a mistake on a source, without pointing that the mistake has no influence on what he was writing about for the last three post or so, no problem. But then, why do you avoid the questions i am asking?

I am not struggling with this picture, i am just too deep into the testimonies, searching for data, testimonies that does not mention, as far as i know, but i can be wrong as i did not read or listen to all of them, nothing about people being forced to undress before entering Krema V. The picture clearly shows that it has been the case, at least on one occasion. Well no testimonies speak about SK working outside...
But when it comes to execution through Bunker I and II, then, yes, testimonies of victims having to undress outside and run to the gas chamber is the rule...hence my mistake...which i recognize immediately...so i do not see any big deal, and even less any justification of accusation of me denying or negating a source.

So maybe it is time to get over it.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:57 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Balsamo wrote:[...]
A discussion on those photos would have some merits (i do not negate that, but i fail to see their relevance with the killing process that took place at Krema II and III, and the duration of this process...

My including evidence of SKs receiving victims (outside) is based on my (uncertain) understanding that newcomers at Krema II and/or III also were made to collect/wait outside in a wooded area and where their (the SK's) help in keeping them calm would seem useful and in line with some testimony. Again, that doesn't mean to exclude the possibility that the reported reception was undertaken within the building(s) between undressing and entering the chamber(s).


As always, corrections welcome!


Unless we assume that members of the Krema V SK managed to pass the camera to some of those SK working at the reopened bunker,


Well, this is why i reacted the way i did, until i realized that the Bunker which would have been at a walking distance from krema V was actually Bunker I, while Bunker II, which apparently was the one who was reactivated, was out of reach for SK from Krema V.

Unless we assume that members of the Krema V SK managed to pass the camera to some of those SK working at the reopened bunker, and then the men who testified about the photographs forgot to say that they had managed to pull this off, all 4 photos were taken at Krema V . . . and thus need to be evaluated with Krema V in mind . . . and Krema V with the SK images in mind . . .

Świebock, in the 5 vol Auschwitz Museum camp history, quotes the contemporaneous note mentioned above which said, "The other picture [the photo of the women] shows one of the places in the little woods, where people undress supposedly for a shower, and then go to the gas." (vol IV, p 278) This note seems to imply that the area photographed was not the only place in the woods used for undressing.

My understanding is probably the same as yours, that the typical procedure in Kremas IV and V made use of the ground-level undressing rooms, from where the victims were led through the corridor in the buildings to the gas chambers (vol III, pp 167, 172) The Dragons described this procedure in their interview with Gideon Greif (pp 150-154). They also describe the rather overwhelming nature of the Hungarian transports - the long shifts - and the use of pits dug behind Krema V for cremation and reopening of the bunker at that time (pp 163-164) without mentioning any other specific changes in procedure in the Kremas (Shlomo Dragon also testified about the dressing room for the Höss trial, quoted in Voices of Memory 6, p 64). Eliezer Eisenschmidt told Greif (p 227) about the undressing room: "Entire families came to the inner yard of the crematorium [V] and they also went into the room together to undress." The layout and process are also described by Pelt, The Case for Auschwitz, pp 199-202. And so on. In all these primary and secondary sources the standard procedure, utilizing the dressing room, is described.

Hans will know better than I do whether the large number of victims brought to the Kremas during the Hungarian transports or something else is known to have caused variations in the procedures from time to time. Remember that 4 years ago Hans already wrote, based on his extensive knowledge of Birkenau, that "It is also possible that there was a second site for undressing [near Krema V] more close to the security fence and that the naked people were first sent to a collecting point in between before marching to the gas chambers."

In that we have a contemporary note mentioning "one of the places in the little woods, where people undress supposedly for a shower, and then go to the gas," and a photograph of the naked women outside Krema V that accompanied it, we need IMO to think, as Hans has done, about this evidence in terms of what went on at Krema V, not move the location of the scene in the photograph to the bunkers.


Unless we assume that members of the Krema V SK managed to pass the camera to some of those SK working at the reopened bunker,


Well, this is why i reacted the way i did, until i realized that the Bunker which would have been at a walking distance from krema V was actually Bunker I, while Bunker II, which apparently was the one who was reactivated, was out of reach for SK from Krema V.

I think at that point, it is a summary that we all agree with.
As i wrote before, what really took place at those two Krema (IV and V) is less clear than how things went at Krema II and III, unfortunately. The simplicity of the facility also allowed more liberty in how to treat the victims. Broken ovens could be compensated by burning pits, a solution that could not have been used at Krema II and III.
Hans maybe right that in order to gain time, a first group might have been introduced in the undressing room while another group, especially if less numerous, was told to undress now to gain some time.
Or, IIRC (as i said i focused of Krema II and III), this might be the illustration of some testimonies mentioning that some victims were led right away to the pit, being shot and thrown in the pit. (But then the comment of the pics says otherwise)

I would add this question to the list of the missed occasion to clarify things when those survivors were still available.

But then again, However things were going on on this part of the camp, i would like to concentrate on what was going on at Krema II and III, where Venezia (the last subject of the discussion) was working along with most of the witnesses.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:43 am

Balsamo wrote:Well this is clearly not what you doing now.

Actually, you were perfectly clear. Given all you say, why didn't you just tell scrmblggs that the photo was not relevant instead of "correcting" the location. You introduced the bunkers, why I don't know. As I think I said, that photo is something I know a bit about, so I felt like jumping in on that.

Balsamo wrote:But then, why do you avoid the questions i am asking?

As I told you, I already wrote, months ago it seems, what I had to say on the issue - I haven't researched this in depth and I don't have the sources that would enable me to say more about. I can't sketch out all the variables and variations - including time - and already the discussion became IMO unhelpful, with people talking past each other and the discussion going in circles.

Which - not wanting that kind of back and forth - means I shouldn't have posted about that photo, either, for sure. The discussion that's continued, about the time line, insofar as I follow it, seems a lot like the tangential discussion of that photo . . . a lot is missing.

Balsamo wrote:accusation of me denying or negating a source.

What I wrote was that "If you wish to negate or criticize such sources, you first need to show familiarity with them - not pretend they don't exist." I just couldn't figure out why you "corrected" scrmbldggs' point about this the way you did, given the ready-to-hand material about this photograph showing that it was taken at Krema V; then I couldn't understand why you replied to me that there are no testimonies about the photo of the women. So I said that if you wanted to take a contrary view, you should deal with the sources. Given that you actually don't challenge the sources, just random posts, that's water under the bridge . . .

And, yes, I am happy to leave this . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:37 am

Statmec:
Actually, you were perfectly clear. Given all you say, why didn't you just tell scrmblggs that the photo was not relevant instead of "correcting" the location. You introduced the bunkers, why I don't know. As I think I said, that photo is something I know a bit about, so I felt like jumping in on that.


Yes, i introduced the Bunker because that scene is exactly what the witnesses who worked at the Bunkers described, while none of the witnesses who worked at krema IV and V. My mistake. And at my very next post, i told it was not relevant. It was quite obvious it was not relevant in the first place.
So what the hell?

What I wrote was that "If you wish to negate or criticize such sources, you first need to show familiarity with them

Well, just that "i did not want to negate or criticize a source", i just wrongly interpreted as a picture of what took place at Bunker II, that is all...so there was no "IF" in the first place...But really, that is not important in the discussion.


As I told you, I already wrote, months ago it seems, what I had to say on the issue - I haven't researched this in depth and I don't have the sources that would enable me to say more about. I can't sketch out all the variables and variations - including time - and already the discussion became IMO unhelpful, with people talking past each other.


I understood that, which is why i was so shocked.
the duration of the process, its basic but clear description should not be the result of a in depth research, but should be in any books on the Final Solution at Auschwitz.
I did not asked anyone to sketch out all the variables and variation, but asked if anyone had heard of ONE before. I did not know of any before reading Venezia, whose schedule i shared, and he was just dismissed as being only a single witness, and therefore could be quite ignored. Ignored or dismissed ok, but for what in exchange? for what model?

And ignored is exactly the term, and i find it quite appalling, actually.
Venezia is, as far as i remember, the only witness who mentioned the difficulty of carrying the corpses after a certain time due to rirgor mortis, and that a fork instead of just a cane was needed (No, Olere did not draw SK sticking huge fork into the corpses)...the need to cool off the slider so that the bodies would not stick on it, that an SS alone would not have been able to remove the concrete block obstructing the conduct for the Zyclon B etc.
But then i guess that it is not important and that few if any felt the need to actually read his book.

So when i asked if anyone had at least read about a timetable of the process, i think that Denying History was the only one who came up with a 32 hours duration, but without details...

Why anyone would be happy to leave a topic that could finally put an end to the last chapter in which Deniers feel good to saying whatever BS they want, because there are just no concrete alternative to oppose them.

Three days ago, Hanover came with this {!#%@}:
Fact: as seen in the plans, this elevator is hand drawn, and is only 4 ft X 9 ft. How in the world could 2000 Jews have been loaded onto a 4 ft x 9 ft. hand drawn elevator in just a few minutes? Remember, the storyline says that the gassings and resultant cremations were non-stop for much of the period in question.

We supposedly have another batch of 2000 Jews waiting outside, supposedly being tricked into thinking they were about to receive showers. It would have been impossible to disentangle all the supposedly dead Jews and load 2000 of them onto to this postage stamp of an elevator, hoist them by hand up to the crematory 'ovens' in just minutes.
And this repeated process meant that the crematory ovens above would not have been capable of cremating them in the time alleged, which meant a build-up, a backlog occurred.
The storyline even states that the backlog of the to-be-cremated-gassed-Jews required stacking them outside. Once again, the alleged 2000 Jews were outside in full view of this laughable backlog claim, but supposedly they still thought they were getting 'showers'. Of course, timely aerial reconnaissance photos show nothing of the kind.

Furthermore, while the Jews were waiting outside, the storyline says that a SS man with a gas mask climbed upon the roof of the Kremas (only maybe 18 inches, or close to it, above the ground, Kremas II & III were largely underground) and dropped Zyklon-B granules into a container and lowered it down into the 'holes' in the roof, into the morgues which were supposedly converted into a gas chamber. The waiting 2000 Jews would have a clear view of the man on the roof's activity, yet these 2000 Jews were supposedly not concerned and still thought they were going to get innocent showers. The storyline is utterly ridiculous.


So, as you know quite a lot on all this, what you suggest we should oppose to the kind of crap?
What scholar's description of how the process?
Who ever said that there were 2000 Jews waiting for their turns while the facility was busy?
It is insane!

The other day, i had a chat with a gringo, and well he was a Jew, and we spoke - of course - about Auschwitz, and suddenly he said that the gas chambers were working days and night. I tried to explain that it was the crematoria who were working nights and day, not the gas chamber, but he just could not see the difference. I guess he took Olere's drawings to literally, the one showing the victims queuing...well they were queuing, but only to enter the killing facility...
And in fact i could not think of a scholar reference that would have established a model... and used it in a "read this" way.

So after all those years debating and defending the holocaust, don't you have at least an opinion? Or anyone else?
You were never asked to produce an expertise on Venezia, just to express an opinion more substantiate that "based on a single witness", it is not my fault if he was the only one who did express the timetable of what he had been doing for 5 months.

But i guess, it is better to leave it that way, and to ignore whatever new comes up, is it?

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:54 am

IIRC my very first reply when you brought Venezia up was that I don't know - and at this point I honestly don't know . . . what to say when you won't believe me when I tell you that I don't have more to say!

And when you try having it that the only argument I did make was about your questions being "based on a single witness" - ignoring, as I recall off the top of my head, my posting that your premise may be faulty, that there were differences in transport size and frequency, that differences existed among the Kremas, that Venezia is not exactly clear, that other tasks of the SK should be considered, that shutdowns need to be taken into account, that Pressac's high level estimate seems unsurprising and fits with what I have read, etc.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:16 am

Balsamo wrote:[...]This picture is irrelevant to the discussion. I still don't get why scrmbgg posted it...

That was in response to some things mentioned by you, such as:
"The issue is not about the duration but about how the whole extermination was organized, and to what point?" and "Anyway, in a SK perspective, the process can only starts when the victims are brought in front of the killing center, the first step therefore being the introduction of the victim in the undressing room..." and something else I couldn't find to the extend that SKs didn't meet the victims outside and which might be because of the mixing up of the Kremas/locations.


EAT As mentioned before, to arrive at a rational and satisfactory result one has to be precise. The SKs were precise, according to Konrad Morgen they were trained and obeyed like, well, well-trained canines. The general process (reception, murder, disposal) would have been pretty much the same at all times, however, the actual performance of those duties sometimes changed with a number of encountered difficulties and obstacles -or improvements- and were done as the situation permitted.
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:00 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:IIRC my very first reply when you brought Venezia up was that I don't know - and at this point I honestly don't know . . . what to say when you won't believe me when I tell you that I don't have more to say!

And when you try having it that the only argument I did make was about your questions being "based on a single witness" - ignoring, as I recall off the top of my head, my posting that your premise may be faulty, that there were differences in transport size and frequency, that differences existed among the Kremas, that Venezia is not exactly clear, that other tasks of the SK should be considered, that shutdowns need to be taken into account, that Pressac's high level estimate seems unsurprising and fits with what I have read, etc.


Well, i admit i am surprise that someone like you, a veteran, would be happy with a "i don't know".
Given the extent of your knowledge about many crucial aspects of the Holocaust, i am indeed surprised that you would leave these matters aside.
For whatever the reasons, you never wanted to be involved in this thread, unless it was to point out my weaknesses, like "how many sources have you read" kind of stuff, fair enough. But when i asked if, in order to compensate my lack of knowledge, anyone had another substantial timetable to propose, all i can say is that i was not overwhelmed by the responses. You mentioned Pressac and this enigmatic:
"The destruction of 1,000 to 1,500 people took a whole day or more."

If even Pressac does not give the details of how this destruction actually took place, well then i am right to point out that there is a serious lack in this issue, right?

and then you did write:
Correction: the only estimate you've read
.

Of course, as i said that it had been the first time i had read such an estimate, hence my begging for other ones.
All i got was basically Hoess!
And Pressac, also by Denying History, but of course without any convincing details that would show that Krema II or III (the one in which Venezia and many others worked) could actually dispose 1500 bodies a day (except through this crazy cremation capacity, of course)

You as well as Denying History then concluded:
You:
The other thing is that Balsamo is making way too much of a single testimony given IIRC fifty years after the fact.


When it was obvious that i wanted to discuss the testimony and not making WAY too much of it.

Denying History:
1) You are relying on a single testimony and based on the work of Pressac he placed the figure the operation of 1000-1500 corpses at between a day or two. (Worded a day or more by Pressac.) You are treating this 70 hour figure with to much authority.


Except that i was hoping that Pressac would give a form of timetable to substantiate his estimation, but does he?
Did he interviewed the surviving SK when he was "dedicating his life on that matter"? Or did he only relied on the testimonies produced in Courts?

You both gently added post like
Balsamo is still confused....
(D-H)
You can't outsmart crazy, though.
YOU

I might be confused and crazy, but you did not substantiate anything, but only quoted unsubstantiated estimation, based on unverified affirmation from a couple of former of SK in a court of Justice who were never asked the full details.

I came up with the only affirmation by a SK witness who declared that there were given 72 hours to complete the process. I did not made up anything out of it, but asking question.
But then, as i am crazy, i went to read all what the SK actually said about it in order to see if such affirmation has some validity...the more testimonies the best, and tried to formulate a timetable of the process, starting when the victims where gathered at the door of the killing facility, and just listening to the witnesses, knowing that precisely you cannot rely on one in particular. But their voices put together and scrutinized actually bring some answers.

If you do this unpleasant exercise, then you would no that Venezia allegation is actually possible. I AM NOT SAYING THAT IT IS THE SOLE TRUTH, only that it is possible.
But after having digested the description of the process from all SK, what is evident is that it would have been impossible to process 1000-1500 in "one day or more" for whatever this kind of estimate means...more than one days, for sure...one day not even in the third dimension. That Tauber 2500 a day is unpractical at the Krema he worked.
That does not mean his testimony should not be taken into consideration, but that it should at least be put into the context.

This was a topic meant to be discussed, i have never meant to impose a truth.
But it is obvious that this topic is a kind of forgotten spot in the historiography.

And that Hanover chose to attack Roberto on this subject endlessly in the recent months, illustrates it better than i could do.
Of course, i tried to response to those attacks, but somehow my posts "did not fit into any category, or something like that, and were refused.

What is really crazy, actually, is that all the data needed to provide some form of timetable are available.
That given the now accepted fact that 430.000 Hungarian Jews were not gassed within 9 weeks, we no longer to need "magic" in the process, hence no more need for 2500 bodies a day, or 10.000 for the whole camp.
On the contrary, this new reality allows historians and specialists to conceive a realistic process, probably closer to what Venezia proposed.
But then if no one is interested in such small detail of the Holocaust, i won't impose anything.


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