More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon May 15, 2017 9:52 pm

Balsamo wrote:At least it clarifies that he was indeed talking about his crema, that is II (III) to which a convoy arrived every 3 days, and it can be understand that it was indeed a time period valid for all the four crema.
I have checked in all the SK testimonies i have, and i can confirm it is the first time that such an organization is proposed.

So those interested in at least addressing this testimony:

- What is it that you don't like and why?


I'm not sure this is really a "like" or "dislike" proposition. It simply "is."

- Are there elements (sources, similar testimonies, documents) that completely reject Venezia proposition?


Well, there's what I posted. That could only include actual cremation as opposed to including disembarking passengers, gassing, cleanup and sorting the possessions of those murdered. All of those things could get us to 72 hours as a total.

- Or could it be that there was such an organization in the mass killing?


To a degree I reject this "industrialized" notion of killing and cremation but by 1944 there was considerable experience in the killing, cleanup and cremation process. The main holdup is the cremation process and the inevitable breakdowns in the crematoriums.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Tue May 16, 2017 12:02 am

DH:
If your point is behind how the 72 hour figure should be treated then you shouldn't have continued this petty argument.

Well, in my perspective i tried. But let's move on.

DH:
We explain a long time ago that the figure doesn't appear to be correct.


Well, in my perspective i tried. But let's move on.
SO why would the concept - again i insist on this aspect more important than the 72 hours per se - of a planification based on "time periods" allowed to each crema for completing the job incorrect? What would be the problem it poses?
One important aspect here is that Venezia states it clearly. 1 transport each 3 days for crema II. It is not something you can "misremember" as it is a clear pattern, part of the organization. Quite impersonal by the way, more like remembering that dinner was served at 6 pm.

So i will gladly know why you consider it as "incorrect", because if it is the case, then the witness made it up.

So are they elements that can be used to completely reject, infirm or correct the "proposition" that is this new "source"?
If yes, what would that be?

Jeffk:
I'm not sure this is really a "like" or "dislike" proposition. It simply "is."


Well, please remember that English is my third language. By like or dislike, i of course meant what would you make reject or accept it.

Well, there's what I posted. That could only include actual cremation as opposed to including disembarking passengers, gassing, cleanup and sorting the possessions of those murdered. All of those things could get us to 72 hours as a total.


The topic was never the cremation capacity of the ovens at krema II (III).
Indeed, the first extract from Venezia book lacked clarity. In the interview, he clearly explained that his crema had to process a convoy every three day. So in this context, even if the ovens were able to finish the process earlier, well the next convoy would anyway arrive later.
Anyway, in a SK perspective, the process can only starts when the victims are brought in front of the killing center, the first step therefore being the introduction of the victim in the undressing room and the last is when the last body has been cremated, but in this specific case, that would the arrival of the next convoy.

Concretely: a hypothetical convoy is sent to Krema II (III) on monday morning 6.00 am. Let's assume that whole convoy has been killed at around 7h30-8h, and that the SK work really start then. Whatever the time the work is finished, the next convoy is not expected before Wednesday 6 pm or in the night from Wednesday to Thursday, then the same until Saturday/sunday.

This is the kind of pattern Venezia is talking about.
Which is why my main focus is not only the 72 hours, that is as needed to generally complete the job, but to know if whether or not there was such a schedule followed in the killing process.

To a degree I reject this "industrialized" notion of killing and cremation but by 1944 there was considerable experience in the killing, cleanup and cremation process. The main holdup is the cremation process and the inevitable breakdowns in the crematoriums.


Not sure to understand, a system capable of exterminating and making disappear like 20.000+ people every week seems quite industrialized to me.
Actually, if Venezia is right, it would definitely make the whole process even more industrialized, with assigned in advance "production (destruction) tools".

Which is why i am curious to know if there is any merit in Venezia allegation.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue May 16, 2017 1:32 am

Balsamo wrote:

I'm not sure this is really a "like" or "dislike" proposition. It simply "is."



Well, please remember that English is my third language. By like or dislike, i of course meant what would you make reject or accept it.


My apologies. I understand what you are saying now.

I find a 24-hour period much more likely, just based on what I posted above. However, there may have existed circumstances where it took longer, let's say damage to the crematorium.
I don't know why your witness said 72 hours. It's conjecture on my part, mere guessing. I'm only aware of what you post.

The topic was never the cremation capacity of the ovens at krema II (III).
Indeed, the first extract from Venezia book lacked clarity. In the interview, he clearly explained that his crema had to process a convoy every three day. So in this context, even if the ovens were able to finish the process earlier, well the next convoy would anyway arrive later.
Anyway, in a SK perspective, the process can only starts when the victims are brought in front of the killing center, the first step therefore being the introduction of the victim in the undressing room and the last is when the last body has been cremated, but in this specific case, that would the arrival of the next convoy.

Concretely: a hypothetical convoy is sent to Krema II (III) on monday morning 6.00 am. Let's assume that whole convoy has been killed at around 7h30-8h, and that the SK work really start then. Whatever the time the work is finished, the next convoy is not expected before Wednesday 6 pm or in the night from Wednesday to Thursday, then the same until Saturday/sunday.

This is the kind of pattern Venezia is talking about.
Which is why my main focus is not only the 72 hours, that is as needed to generally complete the job, but to know if whether or not there was such a schedule followed in the killing process.


Again, simply a guess but really what your witness is saying is that the SK's had three days to complete the destruction of a given transport. So, if a transport pulled in on Monday morning the SK's knew (in essence) that they had until Wednesday to complete the process from beginning until the end. This took into account any possible delays or breakdowns.
I think the reality was different but I'd have to read up on it. I think the mass destruction of Hungary's Jews in the Summer of 1944 overwhelmed Birkenau and this is why Bunker I & II were reopened, along with the resorting to burning bodies in pits.

To a degree I reject this "industrialized" notion of killing and cremation but by 1944 there was considerable experience in the killing, cleanup and cremation process. The main holdup is the cremation process and the inevitable breakdowns in the crematoriums.


Not sure to understand, a system capable of exterminating and making disappear like 20.000+ people every week seems quite industrialized to me.
Actually, if Venezia is right, it would definitely make the whole process even more industrialized, with assigned in advance "production (destruction) tools".

Which is why i am curious to know if there is any merit in Venezia allegation.


I look at it differently, the more I study the more the whole thing looks thrown together and improvised. Bunker I & II were converted farmhouses, II & III converted morgues and IV & V were riddled with technical problems. The Germans built IV and V later so you would think they would be the most efficient, they were not. The Kremas in IV & V had less capacity than II & III.
By 1944 the process became more efficient but the tools were shoddy. It's why I laugh at deniers that yammer on and on about "efficient Germans."

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Denying-History » Tue May 16, 2017 2:54 am

I explained my reasoning... multiple times... and I mainly base my rejection on my calculations and other witnesses not describing the time of the process, but actually giving testimony which I feel do not reflect well on the figures of a 3 day rotation. Even Pressac stated that the process of 1000 to 1500 took around a day or more. I don't feel I need to iterate this any more.
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Tue May 16, 2017 4:24 am

Denying-History wrote:I explained my reasoning... multiple times... and I mainly base my rejection on my calculations and other witnesses not describing the time of the process, but actually giving testimony which I feel do not reflect well on the figures of a 3 day rotation. Even Pressac stated that the process of 1000 to 1500 took around a day or more. I don't feel I need to iterate this any more.


You did, and as i said, i have nothing against your evaluation of 33 hours pèr se.
But as i tried to explain, and which i hope has become clearer now, my point was not to do a time estimation competition.

The issue here is whether Venezia statement should merit consideration or should be rejected, and in both case, why?
Again, the details he provided in the interview i quote, makes clear that he spoke about a "policy", an organized "timing" that would send a convoy to a crema every three day.
So it is not a matter of evaluation of the time theoretically needed to process a convoy - which as it has been pointed out - depended of many variables : origin of the victims, numbers, proportion of elderly, women, children, etc.

But as you pointed out, i am not aware of any other witness (in my case restricted to the SK members) that would bluntly and objectively confirm Venezia's "revelation", but as far as the SK are concerned, it is hard to find anything that would completely infirm it neither. Some elements can be found that seems to confirm, while some elements seems to infirm, but there is basically no way one can use any of them definitely.

So, as far as i am concerned, Venezia statement that there was a kind of schedule regarding convoy sent to the crema, is something completely new, and if accepted as it is, of nature to force a reconsideration of previous versions which to my very limited knowledge have never been clearly expressed.

Hence my fundamental question, is there anything in those previous versions of how the crema worked that can completely infirm Venezia's statement. Again, it is not a matter of previous calculations.
As i tried to explain in the former post, in the "Venezia" version, if a convoy was processed in 33 hours in crema III, then the SK of crema III would have been available to help other crema or serve at the bunkers, until the next convoy was assigned to crema II.

To get back to my former example, if a convoy was assigned to crema II on monday morning, and if the work was finished like on tuesday evening, the the crema II team could have been available in other crema on wednesday, until the next convoy was sent to crema II.

The issue is not about the duration but about how the whole extermination was organized, and to what point?

On a purely methodological perspective, it is not really professional to reject a source because it does not fit with previous thesis. That does not mean that a new source should be accepted without thinking. But there must be objective reasons, elements in other sources, that can obviously dismiss the new source.

For example, another witness who would clearly have expressed a statement that would make the new source impossible, or a document that would show that two convoys were indeed processed in the same crema while Venezia was there, or whatever can be opposed basically.

But keeping in ming that Venezia is not "my" witness, that i am not representing a party in a trial, that what he says is proposed to everybody, then everybody should take a stance toward it. Given its apparent novelty, kind of "ground-breaking" as far as i am concerned, but that can be explained by my little knowledge., it would be interesting if who ever want to participate, to confirm or infirm with concrete elements (sources, testimonies, documents, calendars, etc), so that one can in the end decide if this new revelation has some merits or not.

Maybe what Venezia said is only new to me, so if there are precedent, i would gladly know about them.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:45 pm

Vrba/Wetzler Report (spring 1944):
We knew very well what the "SB" marking meant, but we could not find an explanation for the exceptional treatment and the extraordinarily long quarantine. According to our experience up to that time, the quarantine never lasted longer than three weeks. We became suspicious as the end of the six months' quarantine period approached, and were convinced that these Jews would also end up in the gas chamber. Looking for an opportunity to make contact with the leaders of the group, we explained their situation and did not leave them in any doubt as to their fate. A few of them, especially Fredy Hirsch, who obviously enjoyed the full confidence of his companions, told us that they would resist if our suspicions should materialize. Men of the Sonderkommandos promised that they would join immediately if the Czech Jews put up active resistance. Many hoped that a general uprising could be instigated in the camp. . . . The resistance [of the Czech Jews] did not come off [Hirsch committed suicide]. Determined men of the Sonderkommando had waited in vain.
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- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:07 pm

There's a new book in Greek by Leon Cohen, a survivor sonderkommando:

Leon Cohen: From Greece to Birkenau, The insurgency of the workers in Crematoria
http://x2t.com/Leon-Cohen

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:16 pm

Balsamo wrote:Concretely: a hypothetical convoy is sent to Krema II (III) on monday morning 6.00 am. Let's assume that whole convoy has been killed at around 7h30-8h, and that the SK work really start then.


IIRC, the process seems pretty well described in detail by Pressac and also Olère's drawings. Groups were led into the undressing room and from there to the "showers". After their murder, the corpses were dragged out and moved up to the ovens with elevators. A lot of water was used, hosing down the corpses and the facility, and the wet floors made moving the dead weights easier. The next group would have thought nothing about the wetness, they were "going to take showers", water was to be expected. And since the newcomers were most likely aware that the building was a crematorium, it being active would have not seemed unusual, even if unsettling. They would possibly have begun with disposal of the first batch right away and continued feeding groups into the process from those waiting outside or still arriving at the site.
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:18 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Balsamo wrote:Concretely: a hypothetical convoy is sent to Krema II (III) on monday morning 6.00 am. Let's assume that whole convoy has been killed at around 7h30-8h, and that the SK work really start then.


IIRC, the process seems pretty well described in detail by Pressac and also Olère's drawings. Groups were led into the undressing room and from there to the "showers". After their murder, the corpses were dragged out and moved up to the ovens with elevators. A lot of water was used, hosing down the corpses and the facility, and the wet floors made moving the dead weights easier. The next group would have thought nothing about the wetness, they were "going to take showers", water was to be expected. And since the newcomers were most likely aware that the building was a crematorium, it being active would have not seemed unusual, even if unsettling. They would possibly have begun with disposal of the first batch right away and continued feeding groups into the process from those waiting outside or still arriving at the site.


Attempt to revival this thread?
:D
Thank you, i was quite aware of the process. But i am not sure i understand your last sentence. What is the "first batch" while continuing feeding groups in the process?

You'll have notice that in Olere's drawings, especially the one of the undressing room, there is no signs of Sonder Kommando...In the second one the SK dragging the corpses is almost in a state of starvation (which was not the case, otherwise they would not have been able to do the work), while the third one in the oven room, point one of the issue regarding the speed of the process, that is the elevator...depending on the witnesses, it could lift 8 to 15 corpses at a time...
Olere has the merit to represent things that are really difficult to imagine, but then, those drawings don't tell everything.

I kind of let the topic go, as the forum had been "Trumpanized", but i took a lot of notes, so if there is an interest in going forward, i could get back to it.

I remember on of the Sk saying that the SK were not beaten or coerced to work fast because there was no possibility to work faster. That means that each Krema had some form of limit. I would guess the elevator in Krema II and III (or I and II) and the fact that the undressing room stood in the way between the gas chamber and the oven, so it would have to be empties before dragging the corpses out of it...
Actually out of all the SK interviewed, Venezia was the only one to actually give a time frame of the process, which for Krema II (III) was 6 shifts...i think we left the topic on that.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:53 am

Balsamo wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Balsamo wrote:Concretely: a hypothetical convoy is sent to Krema II (III) on monday morning 6.00 am. Let's assume that whole convoy has been killed at around 7h30-8h, and that the SK work really start then.


IIRC, the process seems pretty well described in detail by Pressac and also Olère's drawings. Groups were led into the undressing room and from there to the "showers". After their murder, the corpses were dragged out and moved up to the ovens with elevators. A lot of water was used, hosing down the corpses and the facility, and the wet floors made moving the dead weights easier. The next group would have thought nothing about the wetness, they were "going to take showers", water was to be expected. And since the newcomers were most likely aware that the building was a crematorium, it being active would have not seemed unusual, even if unsettling. They would possibly have begun with disposal of the first batch right away and continued feeding groups into the process from those waiting outside or still arriving at the site.


Attempt to revival this thread?
:D
Thank you, i was quite aware of the process. But i am not sure i understand your last sentence. What is the "first batch" while continuing feeding groups in the process?

The first group to be processed at the capacity allowed by the facility.

What I mean is that they most likely did not first kill all arrivals and piled up the hundreds of corpses somewhere (where?) and waited until much later to begin burning them all after the last group was gassed.

You'll have notice that in Olere's drawings, especially the one of the undressing room, there is no signs of Sonder Kommando...In the second one the SK dragging the corpses is almost in a state of starvation (which was not the case, otherwise they would not have been able to do the work), while the third one in the oven room, point one of the issue regarding the speed of the process, that is the elevator...depending on the witnesses, it could lift 8 to 15 corpses at a time...
Olere has the merit to represent things that are really difficult to imagine, but then, those drawings don't tell everything.

No they don't. They show a lot of reported details, though. And which would be hard to do if Olère had filled the images with bodies as he did with others. ;)

AFAIK, the SK were part of the receiving process, perhaps if only to put confused and frightened people at the little ease such would afford.

I kind of let the topic go, as the forum had been "Trumpanized", but i took a lot of notes, so if there is an interest in going forward, i could get back to it.

I remember on of the Sk saying that the SK were not beaten or coerced to work fast because there was no possibility to work faster. That means that each Krema had some form of limit. I would guess the elevator in Krema II and III (or I and II) and the fact that the undressing room stood in the way between the gas chamber and the oven, so it would have to be empties before dragging the corpses out of it...

No, the layout and path was different than that. Follow the arrows in this image of one of the two Kremas (1 is the sunken undressing room, entered from the outside via the stairs shown on the left, 3 the gas chamber, 4 the elevator and 5 the oven room):
Image

Actually out of all the SK interviewed, Venezia was the only one to actually give a time frame of the process, which for Krema II (III) was 6 shifts...i think we left the topic on that.

There you know more as I do. As so often. :)
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:17 am

Of course I'm talking about larger transports here. They would also have processed any different amount as needed.
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:20 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Of course I'm talking about larger transports here. They would also have processed any different amount as needed.



Just notices my mistake, sorry...

You wrote:
No, the layout and path was different than that. Follow the arrows in this image of one of the two Kremas (1 is the sunken undressing room, entered from the outside via the stairs shown on the left, 3 the gas chamber, 4 the elevator and 5 the oven room):


Of course, it was Krema type IV and Y ( III and IV) who had the disposition i described, that is the undressing room between and gas chambers. (Hence, the "each Krema type), i meant the elevator for the first type, and the last one for the second type...

But the point of the thread was not to play a kind of "ping-pong game", but i 'll explain in my next post the reason why i think it is important, and will let everyone decide if it is indeed important or if it is not. ;)

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:42 pm

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:There's a new book in Greek by Leon Cohen, a survivor sonderkommando:

Leon Cohen: From Greece to Birkenau, The insurgency of the workers in Crematoria
http://x2t.com/Leon-Cohen


Do you know if it will be translated ?

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:02 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:There's a new book in Greek by Leon Cohen, a survivor sonderkommando:

Leon Cohen: From Greece to Birkenau, The insurgency of the workers in Crematoria
http://x2t.com/Leon-Cohen


Do you know if it will be translated ?


In fact, yes. A part of it was published in English, in a small number of copies, by a small publishing house but it was out of print soon. Now it will be published in English the whole book which in its most part it was unpublished. I'll let the forum know when it'll be available.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:56 pm

Ok scrmbl, here is a more detailed answer:

My last statement on this thread, or one of them, was my astonishment that a real time table of the killing process had never been done as far as i knew, and that the testimony of Venezia - and his 6 shifts duration - was actually the first i had seen. And given the reaction, we can say that his proposal was not well accepted.
But then, where were the other proposals? I search for it but did not really found one, except a kind of in Van Pelt which was really partial.
It seems that the focus had only been on the cremation capacities of the ovens which is really strange as we had the opportunity to ask those who actually took part in the process. Why the question had never been asked is beyond me.

Focusing only on the cremation capacity is like determining how long does a Ferrari take to cover the distance between point X and point Y only on the power of the cars, e.g the Ferrari can drive at 200 mph, so it covers X miles in Y time...which is quite absurd.

The first group to be processed at the capacity allowed by the facility.

What I mean is that they most likely did not first kill all arrivals and piled up the hundreds of corpses somewhere (where?) and waited until much later to begin burning them all after the last group was gassed.


I understand that.
Actually, one transport = one process, starting with the victims entering the undressing room, and ending with the washing up of the killing facility.
Obviously, one cannot use the gas chamber until the last body has been removed, and the gas chamber being cleaned up. The bodies were pilled up in the gas chamber. Dealing with the bodies could only started after the ventilation.

So the issue is still whether Venezia assertion is possible or if he had it all wrong.

The problem with the sole focus on cremation capacity is that it omits a lot of details even though those are provided by the witnesses: shifts of 12 hours with roll calls for both teams, pauses for breakfast and lunch, time for cooling the tools in the oven room, etc.
The disparities between the testimonies - while comprehensible - do not help.
Some of them are clearly fantastic, but others highly plausible.

For example, the time needed for processing the victims through the undressing room (step 1), goes from "record speed" (Chazan), 10 minutes (Cohen), 45 min (Eisenschmidt), but 1 to 2 hours for 2000 people for Sackar, 2 hours (Gabbai) or 2 hours for 1800 for Venezia (schlomo)...
2 hours seems more than reasonable.

The killing through gas and the ventilation are the most stable data and have a range of 30-45 minutes...

But when it comes to the time needed to actually empty the gas chambers, then there are almost no data...Only two SK mention that the it needed 2 shifts (Chazan and Sackar), Chazan telling that he once found the gas chamber half full...then of course we have Venezia and his 6 shifts... Eisenschmidt told he once work 36 hours until the job was done before being sent back to the barracks.

Otherwise at this stage, the focus starts to be on the cremation capacities of the ovens, and here too the discrepancies are quite important, but in my perspective quite irrelevant to a global perspective, and only interesting for fellow deniers to play fool with them.
I take for granted that the ovens capacity were not an issue, even based on the Nazi theoretical estimates (96 bodies an hour) for Krema II and III.

If one looks at the plan you posted:
Image

It is clear that the main challenge of the facility is to get the corpses of the victims to the ovens through the elevator.
In my humble opinion, it is this part of the process that imposes the rythm of the whole operation.

When it comes to how many corpses where put on the elevator, the witnesses once again quite diverge: 12 to 15 (Gabbai), 15-20 (Cohen), 6 to 8 (Chazan).
That is the key: How many corpses could be put on the elevator and how long did it take to put them there, then to send the elevator up, to unload it, and sent the elevator back down, and renew the process.
Determine this would determine the time needed for the whole killing process (for Krema II and III)
But then, there are just no data at all.

But let's imagine what it would need to challenge the official cremation capacity established by the Germans, that is 96 corpses an hour:
It would require that the SK being able to load the elevator with 16 bodies, sent it up, unload those 16 bodies, sent the elevator down, in 10 minutes max, without having a rest within the hour, repeating the process with the same regularity for the next 12 hours straight.
Only if they do BETTER than that is the cremation capacities established by the Germans of the ovens challenged.
Hence my conclusion that the capacity is a non issue, because the hypothesis of the SK being able to load a corpse in less than 15 seconds (assuming that the lift took only 5 sec to go from one level to the other), and assuming that it is Cohen who had it right about the number of corpses on the elevator), is just not realistic.

And of course, the team who drags the corpses from the gas chambers to the lift - and whether the hair were cut there and not upstairs - well those would have had to keep the same rhythm.

So i did a test, and took to follow Chazan and his 8 bodies on the elevator, assuming that the up and down trip, up and outloading, took 10 minutes.
In this case, the ovens and its team were receiving 48 corpses an hour.

Based on those premises, one can guess a duration of the whole process:
Let assume a convoy of 2000 arrived at the gate of krema II a MONDAY at 8h00 am. START OF SHIFT 1 (which will terminated at 8.00 pm)
The victims gather at the door of the death facility, are given access to water, start to line up and enter by group in the undressing room.
By 10.00 am : they are all in the gas chambers, doors are sealed.
10.10 am : gas is poured
10.25 am: the chamber is silent and ventilation is turned on
11.10 am : doors are open and work can begin for the SK
11. 30 am: the first corpses are brought to the oven room.
Assuming the rhythm of 48 corpses an hour, and that the shift has only 8,5 hours to go...
By 8.00 pm, 408 bodies have been cremated.
SHIFT ONE IS OVER with 1600 corpses still in the Gas chamber
TEAM 1 RETIREs and TEAM 2 ARRIVES, both are submitted to a roll call

MONDAY 8.30 pm: TEAM 2 starts to work
By the next morning, 12 hours, that is
TUEDSAY 8.30 am, an additional 576 corpses have been cremated, bringing the total to 984, still 1000 left in the gas chambers when shift 3 starts:

TUESDAY 9.00 am: Shift 3 starts to work, and keeping the same path, processes another 576 corpses by the end of its shift
It is then
TUESDAY 9.00 pm
Shift 4 arrives and starts working on
TUESDAY 9.30 pm, and manage to get rid of the remaining corpses by the end of their turn, that is
WEDNESDAY 9.30 am.
WEDNESDAY 10.00 am : SHIFT 5 takes charge
Now, it is about time to clean the mess to get ready for the next transport.
Now, if, as some witnesses said, it was not only washing op the floors from vomit, excrement, emptying the ashes, etc, but also repainting the walls, and fixing the damage shower heads, then, just only because the paint has to dry out, it would have extended the renovation to well into the afternoon. That is WEDNESDAY between 1.00 pm to 4.00 pm.
AT this point, krema III is ready for the next transport.
Whenever comes the next transport, it would probably be for SHIFT 6...

So Venezia might not have been completely wrong after all, and given that he was the only one to give such a time frame, i think one should not dismiss him, as being "just one witness".

And in this demonstration, i did not take into consideration the times given to the SK for Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner (not all three of them, each shift had two breaks), that might add a couple of more hours over the three days.

The above is only a hypothesis, but it is still shocking to me that i have personally never seen such a demonstration before.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:33 am

Q: "assuming that the up and down trip, up and outloading, took 10 minutes."
Why? It might sound harsh, but it's not like they had to be handling the bodies carefully? Also, there's much to be said about the speed of a routine and rhythm...

And "12 to 15 (Gabbai), 15-20 (Cohen), 6 to 8 (Chazan)...took to follow Chazan and his 8 bodies on the elevator" seems a little lopsided. And not all corpses were of the same size.


Also, Tauber said on average they incinerated 2,500 bodies a day in two shifts.


ETA Look again as to how Olère drew the elevator.
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:14 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Q: "assuming that the up and down trip, up and outloading, took 10 minutes."
Why? It might sound harsh, but it's not like they had to be handling the bodies carefully? Also, there's much to be said about the speed of a routine and rhythm...

And "12 to 15 (Gabbai), 15-20 (Cohen), 6 to 8 (Chazan)...took to follow Chazan and his 8 bodies on the elevator" seems a little lopsided. And not all corpses were of the same size.


Also, Tauber said on average they incinerated 2,500 bodies a day in two shifts.


ETA Look again as to how Olère drew the elevator.


Well, the 8 bodies load in ten minutes was a hypothesis.
There had nevertheless had to handle the bodies carefully in order for them not to stuck the elevator, if you know what i mean, as shown in Olere's drawning, btw. 10 minutes is not such a long time, neither considering it has to cover the upload as well as the outload, as well as the trip up and down, it is only 600 seconds.
Whatever can be said about the speed of a routine, well the problem is that not much had been said at all, while we are confronted with a time table that is real.
Again, i took the premise of Chazan 8 bodies (although he said 6 to 8), and handling 8 bodies in my example is only 30 seconds per body during 12 straigt hours, which we know were interupted by two 30 minutes break for food.

I could have chosen Cohen 20 bodies (not confirmed by Olere drawning, btw), but then the 10 minutes are not plausible any longer, so what you would gain in the load, you would lose in the time needed for loading them.
I would not consider Cohen to be the most reliable witness, as he claimed to be able to checking/removing gold teeth of 75 bodies in 10 minutes.
Now since there is a 5 hours lapse given the breaks, tiny variation of the loads and speed of the elevator does not change the basic facts, that it is clearly this part of the process - and not the oven capacity - that is the determinant of the duration of the process

My point was not to "ping-pong " on details, but just to show that Venezia 6 shift was not that impossible.

Now Tauber, well...that is another topic.

You see, i don't even understand the resistance to look at things in a more logic way as in my calculation, the complex still was able to kill and dispose like 20.000 victims a week, which is more than enough to comply with the proposed number of victims.

Tauber said this, Dragon said that, but then in the end, one needs some demonstration.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:48 am

The point is that all those small details add up. Like that that large elevator/platform only had to rise the height of a little over 2.40 m plus the thickness of a floor.
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:02 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:The point is that all those small details add up. Like that that large elevator/platform only had to rise the height of a little over 2.40 m plus the thickness of a floor.


Indeed, there are a lot of details that are not taken into consideration, that is my whole point. There is no way to know the speed of the elevator. I used to live in an old building that had a very old one, once used to bring up the coal to the apartments, so not intended to transport humans...It was very slow).
Anyway, the lift is the factor that has its limits and therefore determined the capacity of the facility.

The other elements i wanted to insist on is the illogical aspect of using the cremation capacity to evaluate the killing capacity. There is an inherent flaw in this approach.
Now in Van Pelt, page 111, we can see that Piper used the official german cremation capacity, that is 1440 bodies per 24 hour, or 60 bodies an hour

Following the same logic as in my time table above
A killing of a convoy of 2000 Jews, starting on Monday 8.00 am (first shift) would end wednesday morning between 6 and 8.00 am, or 4 shifts., so ready to be used again on Wednesday morning, for a new process that would end friday, etc.
Which then means the killing capacity of the facility, used 24 hours 7/7, would be of 8000 a week for Krema II and III, 6000 the secon weeks.
That is 28.000 a months.
To sum up, the monthly cremation capacity of Krema II and III of 43200 each (number used by Piper) allowed a killing capacity of 28.000 each (assuming transport of 2000 victims), which confirms that cremation capacity is a non issue.

So for example, when Tauber declares that "we could burn 2500 bodies in 24 hours, it should not be understood that 2500 could be killed every 24 hours. In order to achieve that, the killing process and the kremation would have had to be concomitant, which it was not.

But then, in order to achieve such a cremation - which i don't deny being possible - 125 bodies should have been brought to the ovens by the same lift every hour of the 24h.
Now considering that the 12h shift did not equal 12h effective work (time between the shift, roll calls, + lunch breaks).
It would then mean a lift load of 20 people every 10 minutes, 6 trips up and 6 trips down, so depending on the time taken by the lift to go from one level to the other, let's say 7 seconds, the SK would have basically 12.75 second to load a body, the same to unload them...Now it might seem possible if the job is just to throw them on the platform, but it gets trickier when you have to pilled them up, as you need to place twenty.

It is even less plausible if we assume lift load of 15 victims as it would have required 8 trips up and 8 trips down, reducing the time to load and unload the 15 bodies to 7.5 minutes, that would give 11 second per body.

Such an average is just unrealistic, and i insist on the notion of "average".

Now the point of these posts was to assess
1./ if Schlomo Venezia time table, the process lasting 6 shifts, had/could have any merit.
2./ to show that the obsession with the ovens and the cremation capacity of Krema II and III was futile, as in all cases, the capacity was more than enough to keep up with the task.

As for point
1./ it is plausible if one assumes that Chazan was right counting of 6 to 8 bodies on the elevator is correct. He was in a good position to know as he was a "dragger", even if we chose to follow Gabbai and it 12-15 bodies in the lift, the result would still require between 32 and 34 seconds to upload the corpses, which does not seem unreasonable, considering that we are dealing with "average". It would have required hard work to keep the path for 10 hours.
Data used:
- transport of 2000 victims
- 48 bodies brought to the oven per hour
- cremation capacity of 1152/24h, or 34560/month.
In this scenario Krema III could have killed and processed 6.000 victims each week, or 24.000 a months. no challenge for the cremation capacity.

2./ As shown above, if one take the official cremation capacity, adopted by Piper, the process would have lasted at least between 42 and 48 hours.
It would have required to bring up 60 bodies an hour to the oven rooms, according to the same calculation, requiring a more challenging 22-26 seconds per bodies to upload the lift. Plausible.
As said, it would have brought the killing capacity to 28.000 a months, again no challenge for the ovens.

My conclusion is that Venezia rhythm could have existed, while an accelaration to Piper based process was clearly feasible. So both could have coexisted.
So there is definitely no reason to reject it straight away.


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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Denying-History » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:51 am

Balsamo is still wasting his time on this issue... At least he is not saying it took 72 hours based on a single testimony anymore.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:43 pm



And?
Hans, of course, i have read all the contributions available on HC, as i have read all of the sources available to me.
But those kind of testimonies does not serve in the method i chose. I chose to focus on the concrete date provided by each of the SK i could find, to try to assess a time table of the whole killing process.

Regarding Nadjari, well knowing that each testimony taken on its own, has its flaws, his 600.000 Jews, 80.000 Poles and 10.000 others are quite baseless. But, it does not matter as my point was not to play the number game. I find it funny though that there is a comment saying that he is almost spot on regarding the number of victims by gas when he says 1.4 million. Given that the premise he used to reach this total is false, then even it there were 1.3 million who had been gassed at Birkenau (which is not the case, i think), it would have been a coincidence given that it would imply that 710.000 people would have been killed prior to April 44 (which is also baseless).
But it is important in a sense that if we assumed he is right in his counting, then the killing facilities would have achieved to kill 700.000 in 5 months. But then, that is not my subject.

Thanks anyway

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:55 pm

Denying-History wrote:Balsamo is still wasting his time on this issue... At least he is not saying it took 72 hours based on a single testimony anymore.


Well i wish that more would be willing to "waste his time" on that subject.
The point here is not that i affirm that it took 72 hours or 6 shifts, and even less that Venezia is only one single witness. Unfortunately, as far as i know, he is the ONLY witness who mentions a time table in his testimony, the only one, there are just no other.

So the issue is to determine if there is some validity in it, to what degree, and in fine, why he should be dismissed because "he is only one witness". As this single and lonely testimony cannot be refuted by another (as there are none), it is at least worth to look into it.

By extension, what would be your criteria to dismiss him? And what would be the criteria you'd chose if you wanted to estimate a time table of your own?

By timetable, i mean schedule, a reconstruction hour per hour of the killing process. Or maybe you can point me one that has already been done? that would be greatly appreciated.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby nickterry » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:12 pm



I'm pretty sure Hans posted the link just because this is a thread about the Auschwitz Sonderkommando, and not to comment on anything you've previously posted. StatMech and others do the exact same thing on other threads.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:30 pm

Ah, ok...

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:45 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Balsamo wrote:...You'll have notice that in Olere's drawings, especially the one of the undressing room, there is no signs of Sonder Kommando...
...

AFAIK, the SK were part of the receiving process, perhaps if only to put confused and frightened people at the little ease such would afford.

Not to "revive anything" but only to add this from the link Hans kindly provided (thank you!) as another piece of information apparently of the process at Krema II and/or III. This probably would have been before they even entered the building(s). (Similar as seen on the SK photo from Krema V.)

Our work consisted, first of all, to receive them, most did not know the reason...collapsed or cried told them that...it is a bath...went unsuspectingly into the death.
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Hans » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:54 pm

Right, I did not adress you, Balsamo. The link was to inform those who are interested on the almost full deciphering of Nadjari's manuscript.

Polian writes that "this allows to conclude with high probability that the whole text was written in November 1944, possibly on 26 November when the rumors on the forthcoming and then carried out liquidation of the Sonderkommando were the greatest".

Actually, Nadjari's text contains a rather clear hint to an earlier date of - at least - most of the manuscript:

"Today there was a transport from Theresienstadt, but thank God they did not bring them to us, they kept them in the camp, it was said that the order was given, that no more Jews should be killed, and it is apparently true, so they have now changed their minds at the last moment - now that there is not a single Jew left in Europe [...]"


That's a reference to the last transport from Theresienstadt to Auschwitz departing on 28 October 1944 and arriving on 30 October 1944 according to Czech. Curious this was not considered in the dating of the manuscript.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:02 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Balsamo wrote:...You'll have notice that in Olere's drawings, especially the one of the undressing room, there is no signs of Sonder Kommando...
...

AFAIK, the SK were part of the receiving process, perhaps if only to put confused and frightened people at the little ease such would afford.

Not to "revive anything" but only to add this from the link Hans kindly provided (thank you!) as another piece of information apparently of the process at Krema II and/or III. This probably would have been before they even entered the building(s). (Similar as seen on the SK photo from Krema V.)

Our work consisted, first of all, to receive them, most did not know the reason...collapsed or cried told them that...it is a bath...went unsuspectingly into the death.


This photo must be from Bunker II, not krema V.
The issue is not the process which is well known - with the detail of the possible role of the SK in the introduction of the victims into the Krema left open - but the schedule of the process, its duration, which has been kind of ignored, and that should surprise everyone, not only me...but then, it is me saying "should"...lol.
So i wonder why you would not want to "revive" anything?

My proposition is based on the testimonies of Josef Sackar (his job was to receive the victims), Abraham Dragon, Shlomo Dragon, Yakov Gabai, Elizer Eisenschmidt, Shaul Chazan, Leon Cohen, Y. Silverberg (all in We wept without tears), Tauber, Muller, Nyiszli, Schlomo Venezia, Morris Venezia, Dov Pasikovic, Dario Gabai, Benjamin Samuelson, Feinsilber, Daniel Benhamias (had but lost the book, only on notes). I still have some interviews to watch, so.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:07 am

Balsamo wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Balsamo wrote:...You'll have notice that in Olere's drawings, especially the one of the undressing room, there is no signs of Sonder Kommando...
...

AFAIK, the SK were part of the receiving process, perhaps if only to put confused and frightened people at the little ease such would afford.

Not to "revive anything" but only to add this from the link Hans kindly provided (thank you!) as another piece of information apparently of the process at Krema II and/or III. This probably would have been before they even entered the building(s). (Similar as seen on the SK photo from Krema V.)

Our work consisted, first of all, to receive them, most did not know the reason...collapsed or cried told them that...it is a bath...went unsuspectingly into the death.


This photo must be from Bunker II, not krema V...

:no: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderkom ... hotographs
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:16 am

If you keep mixing up locations and procedures, you wont ever come to a satisfactory result. :-P



(This is not to say that the witness described an outdoors reception. Krema II and III might have as well had a step like that between undressing and "bathing" inside the facility.)
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:20 am

Yes, thanks,
But your link states that:
No. 282 shows a group of naked women just before they enter the gas chamber. No. 283 is an image of trees, the result of the photographer aiming too high.[7]


Krema V had an undressing room, that the Bunker II still in operation had not.
The original photo shown above in your link shows that it was taken from far away, probably aimed at what was happening at the Bunker, not in front of Krema V. The photo from krema V are the ones showing the pits

Image

I am not mixing up the procedures, people were not told to undress before entering krema IV and V.
There were at the Bunker

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:25 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderkom ... hotographs wrote:The images were taken within 15–30 minutes of each other by an inmate inside Auschwitz-Birkenau...


What was the distance from Krema V to Bunker II and how easily could have SKs walked away (with a camera, too boot) from their guarded duties?
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:08 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderkom ... hotographs wrote:The images were taken within 15–30 minutes of each other by an inmate inside Auschwitz-Birkenau...


What was the distance from Krema V to Bunker II and how easily could have SKs walked away (with a camera, too boot) from their guarded duties?


They proved able to smuggle a lot of things in and out of their camp, food, medicine, gold, grenades, explosives, etc. they used to bribe the guards with booze and cigarettes...Well they even manage to get a camera. ;)
But then you are right, the location of Bunker II would have been too far i guess.
I might then be the wood near Krema V, but then it was not normal procedure.
As i focused on Krema II and III, i will look into it.

Interestingly, the close-up clearly shows SK on the picture among the victims.
Thanks for those pics

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:25 am

Balsamo wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:. . . .(Similar as seen on the SK photo from Krema V.) . . .


This photo must be from Bunker II, not krema V. . . .

No. It is part of the series taken from and near Krema V by members of the Sonderkommando working there, discussed famously by Pressac at Document 39; the photographs were probably taken by a Greek Jew named Alex.

Georges Didi-Huberman wrote an entire book, Images in Spite of It All, about the 4 SK photos taken at Krema V, including the one which scrmbldggs linked to. See pp 14-15.

This blog piece by Hans Metzner of HC discusses the "undressing" image out in the group of the 4 SK photographs and his article may help with understanding where the photographs, including this one, were taken ("the scene is taken place at the front yard of crematorium 5. . . . The undressed women are walking towards the security fence of crematorium 5 and not as widely assumed towards the crematorium 5 building and its gas chambers").
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:56 am

scrmbldggs wrote:If you keep mixing up locations and procedures, you wont ever come to a satisfactory result. :-P

Fumbling around, on such well known material, without seeming awareness of basics (e.g., the photo of the women having been taken at Krema V) and without engaging the core literature on this if it is to be revised, is, as you say, mixed up and unsatisfactory.

Those in doubt should consult Hans :)
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:47 am

Balsamo wrote:[...]

Interestingly, the close-up clearly shows SK on the picture among the victims.
Thanks for those pics

You're very welcome. You also might remember them from several pages and months ago, when we had been discussing them in this very thread.
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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:27 pm

Hans wrote:Right, I did not adress you, Balsamo. The link was to inform those who are interested on the almost full deciphering of Nadjari's manuscript.

Polian writes that "this allows to conclude with high probability that the whole text was written in November 1944, possibly on 26 November when the rumors on the forthcoming and then carried out liquidation of the Sonderkommando were the greatest".

Actually, Nadjari's text contains a rather clear hint to an earlier date of - at least - most of the manuscript:

"Today there was a transport from Theresienstadt, but thank God they did not bring them to us, they kept them in the camp, it was said that the order was given, that no more Jews should be killed, and it is apparently true, so they have now changed their minds at the last moment - now that there is not a single Jew left in Europe [...]"


That's a reference to the last transport from Theresienstadt to Auschwitz departing on 28 October 1944 and arriving on 30 October 1944 according to Czech. Curious this was not considered in the dating of the manuscript.


Understood.
But then what your stance toward Venezia allegation?
Do you have anything that directly contradict it? I mean a clear testimony that gives a clear schedule of the process? That is not based on pure cremation capacities.

@Nick Terry, it seems it is really relevant given the nature of the book you are working on. Have you anything that would allow to dismiss Schlomo Venetia right away?

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:52 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:If you keep mixing up locations and procedures, you wont ever come to a satisfactory result. :-P

Fumbling around, on such well known material, without seeming awareness of basics (e.g., the photo of the women having been taken at Krema V) and without engaging the core literature on this if it is to be revised, is, as you say, mixed up and unsatisfactory.

Those in doubt should consult Hans :)


It is not a matter of mixing things up, Stat, it is a matter that there are no testimonies illustrating this pictures. Now for obvious reasons, survivors of SK having worked at Krema IV and V a less numerous, less precise... I am not saying that there are none, but as i chose to focus on the two big krema, I would have to review the testimonies of the survivors having worked there.
Most survivors worked at Krema II and III, this is why i focus on those.

Now i ready to go through the testimonies of the few testimonies from SK having worked on Krema IV and V to check if undressing the victims outside the facility was the "standard procedure", and in any way, your knowledge on the subject would be very welcomed, as would be the help and contribution of anyone else.

I chose to focus on the two big krema because most of the witnesses worked in them: Gabai, Sackar, Venezia, Cohen, Chazan, Welbel all worked at Krema III and did provided testimonies and the data provided that can be compared while Tauber for example worked at the similar Krema II.

The point of this stage of this discussion is to assess if Venezia allegation has merits or flaws, and to determine which one. With the objective to be able to propose a schedule of the process. In this perspective, those pictures are not really relevant. I don't dismiss them, but they are not related with the issue.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:53 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Balsamo wrote:[...]

Interestingly, the close-up clearly shows SK on the picture among the victims.
Thanks for those pics

You're very welcome. You also might remember them from several pages and months ago, when we had been discussing them in this very thread.


I give you another thank for that.
I did remember but failed to locate it.

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Re: More Auschwitz: The Sonderkommando Thread

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:14 pm

Balsamo wrote:It is not a matter of mixing things up, Stat, it is a matter that there are no testimonies illustrating this pictures.

First things, as scrmbldggs said, first.

Please take the time to read and absorb Hans' blog piece, in which he quotes a a contemporary note from Stanislaw Klodzinski which reads in part:
Sending you snaps from Birkenau – gas poisoning action. These photos show one of the stakes at which bodies were burned, when the crematoria could not manage to burn all the bodies. The bodies in the foreground are waiting to be thrown into the fire. Another picture shows one of the places in the forest, where people are undressing before ‘showering’ – as they were told – and then go to the gas-chambers.

Here you will read that the note (dated September 4, 1944), which was forwarded with the SK photographs, was "signed 'Stakło', a pseudonym for the Polish prisoner and leading member of the camp resistance, Stanisław Kłodziński."

As to your notion that there are "no testimonies" about this photograph, please at the same YV link see the testimony excerpt from "former Sonderkommando member Alter Fajnzylberg" who said, in part,
Another picture was taken from the other side of the building, where women and men were undressing among the trees. They were from a transport that was to be murdered in the gas-chamber of Crematorium V.

(This is quoted in Janina Struk's book; she cites Świebocka, Auschwitz - a book, alas, I do not own.)

If you wish to negate or criticize such sources, you first need to show familiarity with them - not pretend they don't exist.

I've not looked back through Didi-Huberman to see if he quotes any testimonies on this photo; I can say that on pp 114-115 he explains why, independent of the testimony of Szmulewski, the 2 photographs showing a portion of wall must have been taken at Krema V. He also discusses his understanding of what Chéroux observed at the edge of photograph 3 and, as Hans wrote most likely incorrectly, why he dismisses Chéroux's reasoning.

This is not an area I have researched but I can see where you are missing important material. I am busy with some photography work right now so I can't check the camp history or Didi-Huberman further - I'll do so later.

Balsamo wrote:The point of this stage of this discussion is to assess if Venezia allegation has merits or flaws, and to determine which one. With the objective to be able to propose a schedule of the process. In this perspective, those pictures are not really relevant. I don't dismiss them, but they are not related with the issue.

But you did dismiss them, incorrectly IMO, as relevant to Krema V. Now you want to have it that you didn't.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927


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