One denier is pissing me off

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One denier is pissing me off

Postby Oozy_Substance » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:49 pm

So I showed one denier the document with the crematoria capacity

imghi_062_schreiben.jpg


This is his reply :

Provably a forgery. The best crematoria at the time just beat 1 hour per body. (Today, with modern, gas fired supercrematoria, we're at 45 minutes)

Thus, the 3x2 could, in the most utopian circumstances do 144 in a 24h shift, not 360. A minimal error factor of 2.36

We also looked at the manuals for these ovens. The 5x3 (that's 5 ovens with a capacity of 3 each) operated at a lower temperature (1100°C instead of the two-body ovens' 1200°C) As cremation speed is a function of temperature, the x3 ovens would have been significantly slower (at least 2 hours per body). Yet in the document, somehow the three-body ovens are much faster than the (in reality) quicker 2-ovens, by a factor of 4 instead of 2.36 assuming "best oven at the time" as the baselinem, which we know, they weren't.

Also, these ovens needed to be cooled down for 6 hours, & cleaned every day, a 24 hour rate doesn't make sense.

The document is thus a provable forgery as it contradicts basic physical laws. Of course, the soviet union commissars did not know anything about physical laws when they made up those numbers and forged those documents.

But if the holohoax were real, why would the soviets have forged such a ridiculous document?

It's very obvious by this forgery that the whole of the holocaust is largely a hoax.


I also showed him this picture

1486360390001.jpg


His response was :

Compare the uniforms of Wehrmacht Sicherheitsdienst vs NKVD in Ukraine with the picture.


Along with this picture

1486384635003.jpg


I also showed him two documents (number 9 and 10) out of here

His response was :

Fraktur was outlawed in germany for official documents in 1941, the document is dated 1942. The soviet forgers likely used an outdated template.


In addition, he said on the crematoria :

Actually, we followed the story of the maker of the crematoria from Topf & Söhne. What happened basically was that after germany surrendered, he was abducted by the NKVD, and then the Soviets suddenly had all those hilarious documents, while the guy - a harmless oven builder - died in gulag. His last joke on the soviets was making the numbers impossibly absurd, similar to how Rudolf Höß' confession contains absurdities and physical impossibilities.


Can I get any help with this?
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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Denying-History » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:15 pm

See case for Auschwitz... Or the Irving trial... It's clearly not a forgery.

If the document should have been forged, then Soviet entities must have been the forgers. If it should have been forged, then why was it nowhere used as evidence or for propaganda purposes? Actually the Soviet military commission in its report had claimed a crematorium capacity more than twice as high as becomes apparent from the document in question. The Soviets knew about the document at an early stage, for in the Moscow Archives there is a Russian translation dated of 28 April 1945. The commission's report was from May 1945, nevertheless the document was not mentioned, precisely because it proved only half the capacity that was claimed by the commission.

As Meyer correctly states, the sample shown by van Pelt is the "original" corresponding to the typed copy. It is not the original of the letter, however, because what the Soviets captured at Auschwitz corresponded to a letter that had been sent by the Auschwitz Construction office to the WVHA in Berlin. Thus this "original" is the carbon copy of a letter from the Construction Office filed at Auschwitz. Of course this carbon copy is not signed, only the original letter which was sent to the WVHA.


http://www.phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/fritjof-meyer/kolthoff-meyer-replik-2-english.shtml

Don't always point out for help though. Try using the search bar on HC for help or searching in Google with"site:Phdn.org" after what you are looking for. Just don't be to specific in your search.
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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:34 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:So I showed one denier the document with the crematoria capacity

imghi_062_schreiben.jpg

This is his reply :

Provably a forgery.

Because he doesn't like what it said? It sounds like he offered no proof of forgery other than disagreeing with the content. Giant fail if he wants to argue that this document was created by the Soviets. Why the Soviets? What's the evidence for his charge that the Soviets fabricated the document? I don't have information on this specific document - D-H will likely know and I would guess Pelt or Pressac has dealt with it - from the sounds of it neither does your denier.

Oozy_Substance wrote:I also showed him this picture

1486360390001.jpg

His response was :

Compare the uniforms of Wehrmacht Sicherheitsdienst vs NKVD in Ukraine with the picture.


Along with this picture

1486384635003.jpg

Likely because the shooters were gendarmerie and Ukrainian auxiliaries. Discussion in this post and the post that follows it. Note on Paur trial here. HC blog entry from Roberto Muehlenkamp here.

(As you can see, there is a lot on this and other issues you raise at various websites; Google and the search bar are your friends. Much of what you are asking about is kind of dated and has been dealt with . . . )

Oozy_Substance wrote:I also showed him two documents (number 9 and 10) out of here

His response was :

Fraktur was outlawed in germany for official documents in 1941, the document is dated 1942. The soviet forgers likely used an outdated template.

Hans at HC knows about the gas van documents. I don't believe his series at HC encountered this claim.

Deniers have misused the fraktur edict rather egregiously - mostly by omitting details of the order and complexities in its implementation. Bormann's January 1941 decree called for gradual implementation, starting with educational materials and newspapers and magazines with a foreign circulation: "As soon as possible in regard to school textbooks" but starting with "those newspapers and magazines that already have foreign circulation or whose foreign circulation is desired." The decree said that "The use of Schwabacher-Jewish letters by authorities will in future cease" and that "Gradually, all printed matter should be converted to this standard typeface" and the printed matter that would "at first" be addressed would be mass printed media.

It is not reasonable to expect that every letterhead, stamp, etc. would instantly be converted, at a time of war, especially when the decree calling for standardization itself recognises the need for a "gradual" transition starting with the mass press aimed at foreign audiences. Conversion would mean using up and changing out pre-printed forms, acquiring proper stamps and fonts, etc. Perhaps that is why the cover of the German 1941 printing of Mein Kampf still used Fraktur typeface.

Paul Renner's biographer explains the motivation for the change here.

This link and this one showing clearly the "interesting" letterhead which Bormann's decree itself made use of.

This article discusses the gradual transition with relation to the sphere of education.

I don't know any experts on this topic and cannot speak to the details of the implementation process.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:38 pm

>> One denier is pissing me off

Just one? All of them piss me of :)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Denying-History » Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:01 pm

The only alternative capacity that we have is from Kurt Prüfer. It's higher then the figure the denier gives. The figures are as follows;

crematorium I incinerated 250 corpses per day, crematoria II and III incinerated 800 corpses per day, and each of the smaller crematoria IV and V cremated 400 bodies, in total 2650. Still more then enough to cremate every body.

Then we have Pressac's conservative figures which still can cremate all the corpses even when one uses Carlo Mattogno's restrictive dates.

Crematorium 2: 1000 X 509 = 509,000 bodies

Crematorium 3: 1000 X 462 = 462,000 bodies

Crematorium 4: 500 X 50 = 25,000 corpses

Crematorium 5: 500 X 309 = 154,500 corpses

Total: 1,150,500

This still doesn't include crematorium 1 or the cremation pits.

He seems fixated on the idea that the cremation takes 1 hour... But this is not true, as cremations before 1900's have been recorded to burn corpses in under an hour see Zimmerman's Body disposal of Auschwitz.

In reality we have on record a capacity of 25 minute burn cycles.

Summary: In Gusen camp, which was a sub-camp of the Mauthausen concentration camp, 2 Topf cremation muffles sufficed to cremate 94 corpses in 20 working hours. Contrast this with claims by "Holocaust revisionists", who allege that it would take two, or three, or four hours, to cremate one corpse.


http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-hist ... index.html

It would then take another 20 minutes but by this point in time the corpse would pretty much be mostly broken down:

As soon as the remains of the corpses have fallen from the chamotte grid to the ash collection channel below, they should be pulled forward towards the ash removal door, using the scraper. Here they can be left a furhter 20 minutes to be fully consumed, then the ashes should be placed in a container and set aside to cool[...] (Technique p.136.)


So we're looking at a total cremation time of 40 to 45 minutes. Of which 20 to 25 minutes were in the muffle:

Image

And 20 minutes in the ash collector:

Image

There is more to the cremation process then this but I hope this helps.

Edit: making a small correct and adding text after the image of the ash collector.
Last edited by Denying-History on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:06 pm

בחיאת דינאק איתי, תשחרר XD
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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Denying-History » Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:10 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Oozy_Substance wrote:So I showed one denier the document with the crematoria capacity

imghi_062_schreiben.jpg

This is his reply :

Provably a forgery.

Because he doesn't like what it said? It sounds like he offered no proof of forgery other than disagreeing with the content. Giant fail if he wants to argue that this document was created by the Soviets. Why the Soviets? What's the evidence for his charge that the Soviets fabricated the document? I don't have information on this specific document - D-H will likely know and I would guess Pelt or Pressac has dealt with it - from the sounds of it neither does your denier.
Pressac rejects its contents as is highlighted by Piper in his response to Meyers essay on the death toll of auschwitz.

Pelt however has defended that the letter had it been forged it would have been used for propagandistic perposes. The Soviet's had actually claimed a higher cremation rate then this document even states. We know quite well that it existed and the Soviet's knew of it, the likelihood of it being forged is quite low considering we know it existed before 1945. Though its contents sort of imply a perfect cremation rate which Hoess claims was never achieved so I settle that it's only a guide for a possible cremation rate, though I am against Pressacs and Meyers conclusions.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:34 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Oozy_Substance wrote:So I showed one denier the document with the crematoria capacity

imghi_062_schreiben.jpg

This is his reply :

Provably a forgery.

Because he doesn't like what it said? It sounds like he offered no proof of forgery other than disagreeing with the content. Giant fail if he wants to argue that this document was created by the Soviets. Why the Soviets? What's the evidence for his charge that the Soviets fabricated the document? I don't have information on this specific document - D-H will likely know and I would guess Pelt or Pressac has dealt with it - from the sounds of it neither does your denier.
Pressac rejects its contents as is highlighted by Piper in his response to Meyers essay on the death toll of auschwitz.

Pelt however has defended that the letter had it been forged it would have been used for propagandistic perposes. The Soviet's had actually claimed a higher cremation rate then this document even states. We know quite well that it existed and the Soviet's knew of it, the likelihood of it being forged is quite low considering we know it existed before 1945. Though its contents sort of imply a perfect cremation rate which Hoess claims was never achieved so I settle that it's only a guide for a possible cremation rate, though I am against Pressacs and Meyers conclusions.


You mean a contractor is promising something that is unrealistic and based upon optimum conditions?????

Shocking!!

:D

I always qualify that document by saying that is the optimum rate of cremation if everything is working well and all the muffles were fully functioning.

Hoess complained that the ovens frequently malfunctioned and that when a higher death toll demanded it the SS used open air burning to compensate.

Also, deniers often confuse cremation with incineration. There were no coffins or clothes and little consideration given to the mixing of ashes of those burned.

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:37 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:You mean a contractor is promising something that is unrealistic and based upon optimum conditions?????

It would be a first.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Denying-History » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:08 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Oozy_Substance wrote:So I showed one denier the document with the crematoria capacity

imghi_062_schreiben.jpg

This is his reply :

Provably a forgery.

Because he doesn't like what it said? It sounds like he offered no proof of forgery other than disagreeing with the content. Giant fail if he wants to argue that this document was created by the Soviets. Why the Soviets? What's the evidence for his charge that the Soviets fabricated the document? I don't have information on this specific document - D-H will likely know and I would guess Pelt or Pressac has dealt with it - from the sounds of it neither does your denier.
Pressac rejects its contents as is highlighted by Piper in his response to Meyers essay on the death toll of auschwitz.

Pelt however has defended that the letter had it been forged it would have been used for propagandistic perposes. The Soviet's had actually claimed a higher cremation rate then this document even states. We know quite well that it existed and the Soviet's knew of it, the likelihood of it being forged is quite low considering we know it existed before 1945. Though its contents sort of imply a perfect cremation rate which Hoess claims was never achieved so I settle that it's only a guide for a possible cremation rate, though I am against Pressacs and Meyers conclusions.


You mean a contractor is promising something that is unrealistic and based upon optimum conditions?????

Shocking!!

:D

I always qualify that document by saying that is the optimum rate of cremation if everything is working well and all the muffles were fully functioning.

Hoess complained that the ovens frequently malfunctioned and that when a higher death toll demanded it the SS used open air burning to compensate.

Also, deniers often confuse cremation with incineration. There were no coffins or clothes and little consideration given to the mixing of ashes of those burned.


As Hoess stated the ovens could operate for 8 to 10 hours without problem. Most issues that arised were minor technical issues which were easily fixed, similar to what Filip Muller talked about on page 124:

Image

Fire paste clay could be used to fix cracking. Though this doesn't seem to be noticed by deniers that most issues that occurred were quite minor and easily repaired. This is why no one serious takes Meyers 9 hour day operation seriously. Especially considering Hoess spoke of running the crematoriums all day in order to keep up with the large transports. This is a major failure in both extreme revisionists (like Meyers) and the deniers of the holocaust.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Oozy_Substance » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:09 pm

I am sorry I still didn't read your answers, I am still arguing with the denier like the obsessed person I am.

I told him about the use of pyres after the bombing of Dresden. His reply is as follows :

Yeah, we looked at that. Apparently they took about a month to remove 7000 bodies in monumental pyres. More likely however is that the report is incomplete, and they gave up this horribly inefficient method and just carted the bodies away.

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:10 pm

"gas chambers guys" are so awesome! thanks, D-H
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Denying-History » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:12 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:I am sorry I still didn't read your answers, I am still arguing with the denier like the obsessed person I am.

I told him about the use of pyres after the bombing of Dresden. His reply is as follows :

Yeah, we looked at that. Apparently they took about a month to remove 7000 bodies in monumental pyres. More likely however is that the report is incomplete, and they gave up this horribly inefficient method and just carted the bodies away.


That’s about 9 to 13 times the area of the Dresden pyre estimated above, so if that pyre could incinerate 500 corpses per day, the pyres of Bełżec could manage a daily average of 4,500 to 6,500 corpses. Gley stated that each grate could burn about 2,000 corpses within 24 hours, so the capacity of two grates would be 4,000, that of three grates 6,000 within 24 hours. Comparison with the Dresden pyres suggests that these figures are realistic, even conservative.


http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2016/06/mattognos-cremation-encyclopedia-part-3_18.html?m=1
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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:14 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:I am sorry I still didn't read your answers, I am still arguing with the denier like the obsessed person I am.

I told him about the use of pyres after the bombing of Dresden. His reply is as follows :

Yeah, we looked at that. Apparently they took about a month to remove 7000 bodies in monumental pyres. More likely however is that the report is incomplete, and they gave up this horribly inefficient method and just carted the bodies away.


It took about three weeks and Irving says the bodies burned to ash.

https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/or14-grill-design/

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby NathanC » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:37 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Denier wrote:...Soviet Forgery...


This is the easy answer: Soviet forgery could not have and absolutely did not happen. SM and I have explained this elsewhere. The USSR's policy was to suppress, rather than exaggerate the Genocide against the Jews. This was to the extent that they removed the Black Book of Russian Jewry (which was a report that talked about the Genocide against the Jews) from publication. Simply put, the actual policies and agenda of the USSR rule out any such "forgery". It never happened.

I admit that it's a lazy and easy answer, but it's the truth. Deniers are always going to avoid talking about it because it a) Undermines their favorite dodge of "Soviet Forgery" and b) undermines their claims of "Judeo Bolshevism".

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Oozy_Substance » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:16 pm

This is one annoying denier. He basically deprives this entire HC article based on the documents being used at the Nuremberg Trials. "Soaps and Lampsahdes were also presented as evidence in these trials."

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:29 pm

No they didn't. Where did ge even get this "information"?
Both those rumors gained popularity several decades after 1946... especially yhe lampshade thing, which became prominent around 2010 'cause the History Channel made a movie about Elsa Koch.
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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Oozy_Substance » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:01 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:No they didn't. Where did ge even get this "information"?
Both those rumors gained popularity several decades after 1946... especially yhe lampshade thing, which became prominent around 2010 'cause the History Channel made a movie about Elsa Koch.


Well, Wikipedia states :

Evidence was presented at the postwar Nuremberg trials that German researchers had developed a process for the production of soap from human bodies.[4][5]

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Denying-History » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:29 pm

Small amounts of human soap was made but only on three sites.
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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:34 pm

NathanC wrote:
Oozy_Substance wrote:
Denier wrote:...Soviet Forgery...


This is the easy answer: Soviet forgery could not have and absolutely did not happen. SM and I have explained this elsewhere. The USSR's policy was to suppress, rather than exaggerate the Genocide against the Jews. This was to the extent that they removed the Black Book of Russian Jewry (which was a report that talked about the Genocide against the Jews) from publication. Simply put, the actual policies and agenda of the USSR rule out any such "forgery". It never happened.

I admit that it's a lazy and easy answer, but it's the truth. Deniers are always going to avoid talking about it because it a) Undermines their favorite dodge of "Soviet Forgery" and b) undermines their claims of "Judeo Bolshevism".

Nazi leaders were aware of the stance described by NathanC. In an article he published 9 May 1943 Goebbels even noted that "The word Jew itself, for example, is hardly to be found in the otherwise so talkative English and USA newspapers, not to mention the Bolshevist press." Goebbels attributed this to Nazi-style antisemitism making increasing headway in these countries, including the USSR, but the reasons are different and, in the case of the USSR, have to do with what NathanC writes.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:47 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:This is one annoying denier. He basically deprives this entire HC article based on the documents being used at the Nuremberg Trials. "Soaps and Lampsahdes were also presented as evidence in these trials."

Sorry, this reply will be a bit lengthy.

Deniers intentionally misunderstand courts and misstate how they work to imply conspiracies and chicanery. They do the same with historical study. A great deal of evidence is presented at trials, often evidence is contradictory, and not all evidence has the same value, for various reasons. Courts therefore must, and do, judge what evidence is probative, or has value in proving a claim or charge. Pretending that this isn't the case, deniers often witter on about evidence coming before courts trying cases involving Nazis that 1) may not be germane to proving the Holocaust (e.g., lampshades were said to be found at Buchenwald, which was not a death camp) or 2) was not part of the court's finding/judgment. In its final judgment, the IMT AFAIK didn't mention lampshades made from human skin. The judgment did make reference to soap, stating that "in some instances attempts were made to utilize the fat from the bodies of the victims in the commercial manufacture of soap."

As to the soap reference, this will be shocking, I know, but courts also make errors. One error doesn't imply others, nor does an error about a detail in a judgment even mean necessarily that the judgment was wrong. With the IMT, historians have had seven decades to look at the evidence, both evidence used in the IMT and other evidence; review the tribunal's proceedings and how the court operated and reasoned; and draw fresh conclusions. Historians do NOT deem that something is true because the IMT said it was so: thus we have Joachim Neander's long project studying the history of so-called Jewish soap, with much richer evidence than the IMT used and with a singular focus. Neander has written that the postwar charges that Prof Spanner manufactured soap from human fat in Danzig didn't involve Jews (nor did the IMT judgment specifically allege that it did, as it placed "soap" in the general context of the KLs, in a discussion of extermination and other crimes); in Neander's words, "Depending on the narrator’s and/or listener’s nationality, Polish political prisoners and/or Soviet prisoners of war were identified as the alleged 'raw material.'" It was later, "In Western countries [that] the Danzig soap myth merged with the 'Jewish soap' legend, making Jews the alleged 'raw material' for 'Professor Spanner’s soap factory.'" Neander critiques a book by Shallcross as a prominent example of this conflation.

Neander has also written, on a Polish investigation which took place over a decade ago, that, despite its problems, the investigation, "confirmed . . . that the activities of the Danzig Anatomic Institute, in no way, did qualify as genocide." Also, the study "stated that soap was made there from human remains – a fact already admitted at the end of 1945 by Spanner himself – and that there was no 'soap factory,' but only a small-scale production for strictly internal use. All this tallies with my own research results." Neander added that the study "remarked that the famous 'RIF' soap had nothing to do with Danzig and was not made from human fat, an also well-known fact, but it is good to remember the public from time to time of it." In other words, the discoveries at Danzig were assimilated to wartime rumors circulating about Nazi’s supposed manufacture of RIF soap.

It’s worth noting that the IMT judgment as I read it mentioned "attempts" made, not successful factory production of soap from humans. After his review, Neander concluded about the Danzig institute that “‘maceration grease’ [a by-product of preparing organs and skeletons from corpses] — under normal circumstances destroyed together with other preparation waste — was used in the last months of the war for cleaning purposes within the institute as ersatz for real soap that was difficult or not at all to get. Small amounts of ‘refined human soap’ were also used for the conservation of skeleton preparations, as a substitute for chemicals no more available. There is no reason to call the research laboratory a ‘soap factory’ . . .” Neander also says that it was this “finished soap” that was presented, and somewhat misunderstood, at Nuremberg but which, more importantly fed later myths.

Neander further concludes, “German authorities investigated in the matter of the Danzig soap in the years 1946-1947. They came to the conclusion that Spanner had not committed a crime, and the Denazification Court declared him 'entlastet' (exonerated). These decisions met criticism in the 1990s when the Danzig soap case was brought up in connection with discussions about Holocaust Denial on the Nizkor Web site. The Polish commission that from 2002 has looked into the case again, rejected them as worthless. Critics, however, should keep in mind that in the years concerned the British - in whose occupation zone Spanner was interrogated resp. tried – strictly controlled the German prosecution offices and courts. Western leniency politics toward former Nazis came in a later period of time. 

Obviously neither in Poland, nor in the Soviet Union the authorities were interested in bringing Spanner to court. They could have asked the British for extradition, and these, without any doubt, would have complied, as they had done in numerous other cases. We do not know why neither the Poles nor the Soviets did so. The simplest explanation would be that they had doubts about Spanner’s guilt, that — for political reasons – they thought it was better to leave the matter in the balance than to risk an acquittal by a court decision.”

What Neander has done is to correct errors from the immediate postwar about a minor issue, albeit one that was later amplified and publicized widely; such record-correcting is hardly a novel, let alone a suspicious, thing for a historian to undertake.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Denying-History » Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:28 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Oozy_Substance wrote:I am sorry I still didn't read your answers, I am still arguing with the denier like the obsessed person I am.

I told him about the use of pyres after the bombing of Dresden. His reply is as follows :

Yeah, we looked at that. Apparently they took about a month to remove 7000 bodies in monumental pyres. More likely however is that the report is incomplete, and they gave up this horribly inefficient method and just carted the bodies away.


It took about three weeks and Irving says the bodies burned to ash.

https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/or14-grill-design/
They were cremating people between February 21 and March 5. The denier is rushing to judgement that these people were being cremated at every point of the day.
Last edited by Denying-History on Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Oozy_Substance » Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:29 pm

I've noticed an interesting piece of information in the wikipedia article :

In 2006 a sample of the soap archived at the International Court of Justice in The Hague was given for analysis to Andrzej Stołyhwo, an expert in the chemistry of fats from the Gdansk University of Technology in Poland. He concluded that some of the fat in the sample tested was of human origin. The sample of soap had previously been used as evidence in the post-World War II Nuremberg trials, but at the time the technology was unavailable to determine whether the soap had been produced from human fat. The human remains used to make the soap were believed to have been brought from Bydgoszcz and Stutthof concentration camp.[28][29]


I showed it to the denier, he now claims the Soviets introduced a human soap of their own to the trial.

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Denying-History » Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:50 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:I've noticed an interesting piece of information in the wikipedia article :

In 2006 a sample of the soap archived at the International Court of Justice in The Hague was given for analysis to Andrzej Stołyhwo, an expert in the chemistry of fats from the Gdansk University of Technology in Poland. He concluded that some of the fat in the sample tested was of human origin. The sample of soap had previously been used as evidence in the post-World War II Nuremberg trials, but at the time the technology was unavailable to determine whether the soap had been produced from human fat. The human remains used to make the soap were believed to have been brought from Bydgoszcz and Stutthof concentration camp.[28][29]


I showed it to the denier, he now claims the Soviets introduced a human soap of their own to the trial.
Honestly I would recommend not using wiki as a source against deniers. You would be better off only using it as an overview.

As for the human soap DNA tests showed the Germans did make it.

http://auschwitz.org/en/museum/news/human-fat-was-used-to-produce-soap-in-gdansk-during-the-war,55.html

However it was only made on an experimental level.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/10/tests-show-that-nazis-used-human.html?m=1
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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:03 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:I've noticed an interesting piece of information in the wikipedia article :

In 2006 a sample of the soap archived at the International Court of Justice in The Hague was given for analysis to Andrzej Stołyhwo, an expert in the chemistry of fats from the Gdansk University of Technology in Poland. He concluded that some of the fat in the sample tested was of human origin. The sample of soap had previously been used as evidence in the post-World War II Nuremberg trials, but at the time the technology was unavailable to determine whether the soap had been produced from human fat. The human remains used to make the soap were believed to have been brought from Bydgoszcz and Stutthof concentration camp.[28][29]


I showed it to the denier, he now claims the Soviets introduced a human soap of their own to the trial.


Go to HC and type soap in the search engine. Here's just one post:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/10/ipn-and-spanners-soap-critical.html?m=1

I think soap is really irrelevant but deniers love that and lampshades.

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:30 pm

we went over soap in another thread, here's a post with links to Neander's work, some on HC, some not
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:01 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:I am sorry I still didn't read your answers, I am still arguing with the denier like the obsessed person I am.

I told him about the use of pyres after the bombing of Dresden. His reply is as follows :

Yeah, we looked at that. Apparently they took about a month to remove 7000 bodies in monumental pyres. More likely however is that the report is incomplete, and they gave up this horribly inefficient method and just carted the bodies away.


I think this is funny. Deniers often make a big deal about "where are all the bodies??" When told the bodies were cremated they go on about all of the ash that is created and how do you burn bodies on rails down to ash, etc., etc.

The thing I bring up is the Poles found FIVE ACRES of ash when they investigated Treblinka. Not only did they find ash but they found skeletal remains and body parts.

Deniers then circle back to, "well, if they were cremated, why did they find body parts??????"

:banghead:

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Balsamo » Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:16 pm

Dickhead wrote:

Wehrmacht Sicherheitsdienst


Yet another high level one !!!

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:24 pm

LOL I missed that, caught just the SD part . . . spectacular catch! Very nice.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Denying-History » Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:04 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Oozy_Substance wrote:I am sorry I still didn't read your answers, I am still arguing with the denier like the obsessed person I am.

I told him about the use of pyres after the bombing of Dresden. His reply is as follows :

Yeah, we looked at that. Apparently they took about a month to remove 7000 bodies in monumental pyres. More likely however is that the report is incomplete, and they gave up this horribly inefficient method and just carted the bodies away.


I think this is funny. Deniers often make a big deal about "where are all the bodies??" When told the bodies were cremated they go on about all of the ash that is created and how do you burn bodies on rails down to ash, etc., etc.
Lol but this has always been my favorite denier canard. First demand proof that all the bodies could be cremated, once its proven that is possible then claim it wasn't proven and demand all the bodies even. :lol: This little bit of circular logic never gets old. Using Gley's conservative figure of 2000 corpses per grill every day makes utter foolery of this claim.

The thing I bring up is the Poles found FIVE ACRES of ash when they investigated Treblinka. Not only did they find ash but they found skeletal remains and body parts.


They found large amounts of ash, its quite funny! Lol Its even better when deniers claim that the Polish findings some how fit their narrative.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:49 am

Oozy_Substance wrote:I also showed him this picture

1486360390001.jpg

His response was :

Compare the uniforms of Wehrmacht Sicherheitsdienst vs NKVD in Ukraine with the picture.


Along with this picture

1486384635003.jpg



I see no similarity whatsoever. The NKVD troops had much more prominent shoulder boards and wore a totally different style of pants than the Germans in the Einsatzgruppen photo.

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Aaron Richards » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:27 am

To OP,

Ask any denier you encounter in a cremation debate, who comes off as a "cremation time expert" the following, truly simple question:

"How long does it take to cremate an infant?"

Then sit back and watch them squirm and start their usual evasive dance routines.
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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Aaron Richards » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:35 am

Regarding soap, we have this source, have a read if you are interested:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-soap-myth

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the ... llegations
"...we had the duty towards our Volk (the German people) to kill this Volk (the Jewish people) that wanted to kill us." - Himmler in his 1943 Posen speech reminding any future holocaust denier how absurd their beliefs really are.
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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:41 am

Oozy, tell your stromfag that even if soap and lampshades were presented at Nurembeg, IT DOES NOT MATTTER.
NO REAL HOLOCAUST SCHOLAR THESE DAYS WOULD TELL YOU ITS REAL. ITS A STRAWMAN.

Also tell him שיילך לזיין חזירים ושאתה יורק עליו ועל הקברים של כל אבותיו רוצחי היהודים המתועבים.
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Oozy_Substance » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:30 am

Correct me if I am wrong, but from all the material I conclude that human soap was indeed manufactured in small-scale in Gdansk? And a piece of that soap was presented at the Nuremberg Trials, and the lab examinations from 2006 confirm this piece of soap contains human tissues.
Also, this actual human-soap should not to be confused with the R.I.F soaps that were often mistook by camp inmates to be made out of Jews.
Also, the Gdansk human-soap was most likely not made out of Jewish victims.

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:Also tell him שיילך לזיין חזירים ושאתה יורק עליו ועל הקברים של כל אבותיו רוצחי היהודים המתועבים.


Haha, but that's a given :D

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Aaron Richards » Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:00 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but from all the material I conclude that human soap was indeed manufactured in small-scale in Gdansk? And a piece of that soap was presented at the Nuremberg Trials, and the lab examinations from 2006 confirm this piece of soap contains human tissues.
Also, this actual human-soap should not to be confused with the R.I.F soaps that were often mistook by camp inmates to be made out of Jews.
Also, the Gdansk human-soap was most likely not made out of Jewish victims.


Yes, this is also my exact position on the matter.

Now of course the only problem we have, is if a denier asks "well, give me evidence of that 2006 forensic test". If a link to the actual report rather than a summary of its findings exists, and anyone could provide it, I would be very happy.

Also, I remember reading a piece written by prof. Joachim Neander on the HC blog, who seems to dismiss the forensic test of 2006 as polish propaganda, which bothers me.
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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Oozy_Substance » Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:28 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:Also, I remember reading a piece written by prof. Joachim Neander on the HC blog, who seems to dismiss the forensic test of 2006 as polish propaganda, which bothers me.


English is not my native-tongue, but from my understanding, looking on the HC article by Neander :

As all information was only given orally by the IPN spokespersons and media reports differ widely, I will only comment on the intersection of the statements published in the media. First and foremost, IPN confirmed its stance that the activities of the Danzig Anatomic Institute, in no way, did qualify as genocide. IPN further stated that soap was made there from human remains – a fact already admitted at the end of 1945 by Spanner himself – and that there was no “soap factory,” but only a small-scale production for strictly internal use. All this tallies with my own research results. IPN also remarked that the famous “RIF” soap had nothing to do with Danzig and was not made from human fat, an also well-known fact, but it is good to remember the public from time to time of it.


It seems like he agrees with the findings? The soap was made from human remains.

He only criticizes about how the findings were presented on TV :

There are, however, several points to which I cannot agree. IPN could not present new sources from eyewitnesses. Presenting to a TV audience the soap samples and the professor from the Warsaw Agricultural Academy who had analyzed them, was a good PR gag but did not bring new information. All alleged “new” witnesses were either witnesses from hearsay or had visited the institute months after it had been abandoned by the German scientists at the end of January 1945 and after its devastation, two months later, in the chaotic days of the Battle of Danzig and its immediate aftermath. IPN sweepingly discredited all evidence from the German side as “not trustworthy,” but accepted all incriminating evidence presented already in 1945, as “trustworthy,” without the slightest source criticism. As an historian, I am used to gauge sources critically: to treat every source seriously, but never to take it, from the outset, at face value. And sometimes it is also helpful to use common sense.

A second point of my criticism is the heavily biased way the “victims” of the soap-making were presented, particularly in the statement given to the western press: “Human remains have been brought ... from Kaliningrad, Bydgoszcz, and the Stutthof Nazi concentration camp.” As 99.99 per cent of the readers/listeners of this information are not specialized in Holocaust history, they will conclude: Bydgoszcz – Poles, Stutthof – Jews (in Poland: also Poles), Kaliningrad – Russians were boiled to soap. And so it arrived at the public, which can easily be seen by crawling the Web. And that is against the facts which IPN certainly knows. In the period to be considered for the soap-making, i.e. February 1944 to January 1945, for legal and practical reasons, neither corpses from Jews, nor from executed Poles or Russians could have been delivered to the institute. There may have been a few exceptions – even Nazi Germans were not always law-abiding. But all eyewitnesses who testified in 1945/46 confirmed that toward the end of the war, the “material” came from the Conradstein/Kocborowo insane asylum and from the prisons of Danzig/Gdansk, Elbing/Elblag, and Königsberg/Kaliningrad. That means, however, that the dead resp. executed must have been, in their great majority, non-Jewish German citizens. But “Germans” are never mentioned. By the way, I would like to know how the emaciated Stutthof prisoners would have been a suitable “raw material” for soap production. But such contradictions are characteristic for folktales and legends. They never bother neither the narrator, nor the listener.

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:59 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but from all the material I conclude that human soap was indeed manufactured in small-scale in Gdansk? And a piece of that soap was presented at the Nuremberg Trials, and the lab examinations from 2006 confirm this piece of soap contains human tissues.
Also, this actual human-soap should not to be confused with the R.I.F soaps that were often mistook by camp inmates to be made out of Jews.
Also, the Gdansk human-soap was most likely not made out of Jewish victims.

You are not wrong.

One more comment from Neander worth quoting has to do with the 2006 IPN investigation:
the “material” came from the Conradstein/Kocborowo insane asylum and from the prisons of Danzig/Gdansk, Elbing/Elblag, and Königsberg/Kaliningrad. That means, however, that the dead resp. executed must have been, in their great majority, non-Jewish German citizens. But “Germans” are never mentioned. By the way, I would like to know how the emaciated Stutthof prisoners would have been a suitable “raw material” for soap production. But such contradictions are characteristic for folktales and legends. They never bother neither the narrator, nor the listener.

Here is where, according to Neander, the IMT got things wrong - he casts strong doubt that "soap" belongs in the KL discussion at all. (In this same piece, I just noted, he calls the lab results a good PR stunt, presumably because it only confirms what was known in 1945-1946?)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:00 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Aaron Richards wrote:Also, I remember reading a piece written by prof. Joachim Neander on the HC blog, who seems to dismiss the forensic test of 2006 as polish propaganda, which bothers me.


English is not my native-tongue, but from my understanding, looking on the HC article by Neander :

As all information was only given orally by the IPN spokespersons and media reports differ widely, I will only comment on the intersection of the statements published in the media. First and foremost, IPN confirmed its stance that the activities of the Danzig Anatomic Institute, in no way, did qualify as genocide. IPN further stated that soap was made there from human remains – a fact already admitted at the end of 1945 by Spanner himself – and that there was no “soap factory,” but only a small-scale production for strictly internal use. All this tallies with my own research results. IPN also remarked that the famous “RIF” soap had nothing to do with Danzig and was not made from human fat, an also well-known fact, but it is good to remember the public from time to time of it.


It seems like he agrees with the findings? The soap was made from human remains.

He does.

Oozy_Substance wrote:He only criticizes about how the findings were presented on TV :

There are, however, several points to which I cannot agree. IPN could not present new sources from eyewitnesses. Presenting to a TV audience the soap samples and the professor from the Warsaw Agricultural Academy who had analyzed them, was a good PR gag but did not bring new information. All alleged “new” witnesses were either witnesses from hearsay or had visited the institute months after it had been abandoned by the German scientists at the end of January 1945 and after its devastation, two months later, in the chaotic days of the Battle of Danzig and its immediate aftermath. IPN sweepingly discredited all evidence from the German side as “not trustworthy,” but accepted all incriminating evidence presented already in 1945, as “trustworthy,” without the slightest source criticism. As an historian, I am used to gauge sources critically: to treat every source seriously, but never to take it, from the outset, at face value. And sometimes it is also helpful to use common sense.

A second point of my criticism is the heavily biased way the “victims” of the soap-making were presented, particularly in the statement given to the western press: “Human remains have been brought ... from Kaliningrad, Bydgoszcz, and the Stutthof Nazi concentration camp.” As 99.99 per cent of the readers/listeners of this information are not specialized in Holocaust history, they will conclude: Bydgoszcz – Poles, Stutthof – Jews (in Poland: also Poles), Kaliningrad – Russians were boiled to soap. And so it arrived at the public, which can easily be seen by crawling the Web. And that is against the facts which IPN certainly knows. In the period to be considered for the soap-making, i.e. February 1944 to January 1945, for legal and practical reasons, neither corpses from Jews, nor from executed Poles or Russians could have been delivered to the institute. There may have been a few exceptions – even Nazi Germans were not always law-abiding. But all eyewitnesses who testified in 1945/46 confirmed that toward the end of the war, the “material” came from the Conradstein/Kocborowo insane asylum and from the prisons of Danzig/Gdansk, Elbing/Elblag, and Königsberg/Kaliningrad. That means, however, that the dead resp. executed must have been, in their great majority, non-Jewish German citizens. But “Germans” are never mentioned. By the way, I would like to know how the emaciated Stutthof prisoners would have been a suitable “raw material” for soap production. But such contradictions are characteristic for folktales and legends. They never bother neither the narrator, nor the listener.

Same article I just referred to, btw. Thanks for quoting more of it. Neander's main argument is against how soap became emblematic of a national, even eastern bloc myth about the war, for example as he wrote elsewhere: “A flood of newspaper publications in the immediate postwar years, but first and foremost Nałkowska’s Profesor Spanner—in public opinion raised to a first-rate historical source—engraved the myth of the Danzig human soap factory into the collective memory not only of the Polish people, but of peoples across the whole Soviet dominated part of the world. Depending on the narrator’s and/or listener’s nationality, Polish political prisoners and/or Soviet prisoners of war were identified as the alleged 'raw material.'” And became linked to the Holocaust. Neander's research, IMO, shows the dishonesty of "revisionism": here's a scholar who "revised" a widely shared set of beliefs, basing his revision on exhaustive study of the evidence - and the revisionists refuse to engage with his findings so that they can repeat their hollow and disingenuous meme.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Denying-History
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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Denying-History » Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:04 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:It seems like he agrees with the findings? The soap was made from human remains.
You are correct as SM points out. The HC guest only criticizes them for not using new witnesses, being slightly misleading that they had found "new evidence", and that they were accepting pretty much only the incriminating evidence.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace


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