One denier is pissing me off

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Kleon_I XYZ Contagion
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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:05 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Neander's research, IMO, shows the dishonesty of "revisionism": here's a scholar who "revised" a widely shared set of beliefs, basing his revision on exhaustive study of the evidence - and the revisionists refuse to engage with his findings so that they can repeat their hollow and disingenuous meme.


How is it possible?
I thought Jews don't allow the 'orthodox narrative' to be questioned or revised, or even put you in jail if you try.
No way, this Neander professor should be in prison by now.
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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Hans » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:05 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Oozy_Substance wrote:I also showed him two documents (number 9 and 10) out of here

His response was :

Fraktur was outlawed in germany for official documents in 1941, the document is dated 1942. The soviet forgers likely used an outdated template.

Hans at HC knows about the gas van documents. I don't believe his series at HC encountered this claim.

Deniers have misused the fraktur edict rather egregiously - mostly by omitting details of the order and complexities in its implementation. Bormann's January 1941 decree called for gradual implementation, starting with educational materials and newspapers and magazines with a foreign circulation: "As soon as possible in regard to school textbooks" but starting with "those newspapers and magazines that already have foreign circulation or whose foreign circulation is desired." The decree said that "The use of Schwabacher-Jewish letters by authorities will in future cease" and that "Gradually, all printed matter should be converted to this standard typeface" and the printed matter that would "at first" be addressed would be mass printed media.

It is not reasonable to expect that every letterhead, stamp, etc. would instantly be converted, at a time of war, especially when the decree calling for standardization itself recognises the need for a "gradual" transition starting with the mass press aimed at foreign audiences. Conversion would mean using up and changing out pre-printed forms, acquiring proper stamps and fonts, etc. Perhaps that is why the cover of the German 1941 printing of Mein Kampf still used Fraktur typeface.

Paul Renner's biographer explains the motivation for the change here.

This link and this one showing clearly the "interesting" letterhead which Bormann's decree itself made use of.

This article discusses the gradual transition with relation to the sphere of education.

I don't know any experts on this topic and cannot speak to the details of the implementation process.


In addition to SM's excellent rebuttal, you might want to point out there are countless examples of perfectly innocent German documents from 1942 - 1945 with Fraktur letterheads and stamps showing that these were not instantly thrown away and replaced but continued to be used by the Nazi authorities, such as

article-1259974-08D3EE1E000005DC-145_306x432.jpg

APnazidiary.jpg

7cc8f6fc2884643cdc931219202af01a.jpg


So the argument is demonstrable BS.
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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby NathanC » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:19 pm

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Neander's research, IMO, shows the dishonesty of "revisionism": here's a scholar who "revised" a widely shared set of beliefs, basing his revision on exhaustive study of the evidence - and the revisionists refuse to engage with his findings so that they can repeat their hollow and disingenuous meme.


How is it possible?
I thought Jews don't allow the 'orthodox narrative' to be questioned or revised, or even put you in jail if you try.
No way, this Neander professor should be in prison by now.


Not only that. Dr. Neander even did an expose on one Irene Zisblatt. I.e., he scrutinized a Survivor's account and exposed problems with it. Christopher Browning and even the Auschwitz museum have done the same.

It's not just the "narrative", but even the "eye" (or is that lie) witnesses whom scholars are questioning.

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:20 pm

I've not heard from Joachim in months, perhaps he has finally been caught up in a thought-crime sweep and is now one of those wasting away in the dungeons of Europe with untold millions of other free thinkers?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:23 pm

Hans wrote:. . . you might want to point out there are countless examples of perfectly innocent German documents from 1942 - 1945 with Fraktur letterheads and stamps . . .

I was so hoping someone (Hans!) with depth of study in the archives would show up to make this point; I googled around a bit and said, leave it to the pros!

thanks Hans, excellent stuff

I might also note that the "Fraktur Ban" argument has been used by deniers with regard to Jäger's little report, which compounds the idiocy because Jäger's report doesn't use Fraktur but I think a variant of Antiqua. (sample with the supposed Fraktur stamping)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:37 pm

NathanC wrote:
Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Neander's research, IMO, shows the dishonesty of "revisionism": here's a scholar who "revised" a widely shared set of beliefs, basing his revision on exhaustive study of the evidence - and the revisionists refuse to engage with his findings so that they can repeat their hollow and disingenuous meme.


How is it possible?
I thought Jews don't allow the 'orthodox narrative' to be questioned or revised, or even put you in jail if you try.
No way, this Neander professor should be in prison by now.


Not only that. Dr. Neander even did an expose on one Irene Zisblatt. I.e., he scrutinized a Survivor's account and exposed problems with it. Christopher Browning and even the Auschwitz museum have done the same.

It's not just the "narrative", but even the "eye" (or is that lie) witnesses whom scholars are questioning.


Lipstadt also exposed fraud.

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:38 pm

Seriously though, with regard to Joachim: he is very much against anti-HD legislation and pointed years ago that in some sense having such laws requires having official, encoded definitions of historical events - and, in his view, the legal definitions used have all the flaws one would expect. Which also can't be, because we Believers are all about suppressing research, discovery and discussion.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby NathanC » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:53 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I've not heard from Joachim in months, perhaps he has finally been caught up in a thought-crime sweep and is now one of those wasting away in the dungeons of Europe with untold millions of other free thinkers?


If I'm not mistaken, he's quite old. Dr. Neander mentioned before that he was a baby when his family was driven out of Danzig/Prussia after WWII. Hopefully he's having a well deserved rest and retirement. He's certainly earned it.

It's interesting really. He's the victim of a crime/event that Deniers exploit to minimize the Holocaust, and yet, like Kurt Vonnegut, he did not become a denier and is instead an expert scholar of the field.

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Hans » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:13 pm

Hans wrote:In addition to SM's excellent rebuttal, you might want to point out there are countless examples of perfectly innocent German documents from 1942 - 1945 with Fraktur letterheads and stamps showing that these were not instantly thrown away and replaced but continued to be used by the Nazi authorities, such as

article-1259974-08D3EE1E000005DC-145_306x432.jpg
APnazidiary.jpg
7cc8f6fc2884643cdc931219202af01a.jpg

So the argument is demonstrable BS.


Some more Nazi docs employing Fraktur typeface in letterheads and stamps after 1941 can be found here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here etc. pp. - this can be done endlessly so please ask him how many examples he needs to feel himself this was an inherently stupid and false claim.
Last edited by Hans on Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:14 pm

NathanC wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I've not heard from Joachim in months, perhaps he has finally been caught up in a thought-crime sweep and is now one of those wasting away in the dungeons of Europe with untold millions of other free thinkers?


If I'm not mistaken, he's quite old. Dr. Neander mentioned before that he was a baby when his family was driven out of Danzig/Prussia after WWII. Hopefully he's having a well deserved rest and retirement. He's certainly earned it.

It's interesting really. He's the victim of a crime/event that Deniers exploit to minimize the Holocaust, and yet, like Kurt Vonnegut, he did not become a denier and is instead an expert scholar of the field.

I last heard from him actually more than some months ago, yes, he is retired, but he was still working on research and writing at that time.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:14 pm

Hans wrote:
Hans wrote:In addition to SM's excellent rebuttal, you might want to point out there are countless examples of perfectly innocent German documents from 1942 - 1945 with Fraktur letterheads and stamps showing that these were not instantly thrown away and replaced but continued to be used by the Nazi authorities, such as

article-1259974-08D3EE1E000005DC-145_306x432.jpg
APnazidiary.jpg
7cc8f6fc2884643cdc931219202af01a.jpg

So the argument is demonstrable BS.


Some more docs employing Fraktur typeface in letterheads and stamps after 1941 can be found here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here etc. pp. - this can be done endlessly so please ask him how many examples he needs to feel himself this was an inherently stupid and false claim.

LOL
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:15 pm

LOL

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:26 pm

Hans wrote:
Hans wrote:In addition to SM's excellent rebuttal, you might want to point out there are countless examples of perfectly innocent German documents from 1942 - 1945 with Fraktur letterheads and stamps showing that these were not instantly thrown away and replaced but continued to be used by the Nazi authorities, such as

article-1259974-08D3EE1E000005DC-145_306x432.jpg
APnazidiary.jpg
7cc8f6fc2884643cdc931219202af01a.jpg

So the argument is demonstrable BS.


Some more Nazi docs employing Fraktur typeface in letterheads and stamps after 1941 can be found here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here etc. pp. - this can be done endlessly so please ask him how many examples he needs to feel himself this was an inherently stupid and false claim.



I am unaware as to why this remains a football for the deniers. The Bormann circular on that matter explicitly placed the out-phasing process in the context of educational institutions, and stated that it was to be done gradually. Bureaucratic transfers are notoriously slow: the Canadian Army was supposed to be issued new helicopters as far back as the 1990's and are still waiting today.

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:35 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:I am unaware as to why this remains a football for the deniers. The Bormann circular on that matter explicitly placed the out-phasing process in the context of educational institutions, and stated that it was to be done gradually. Bureaucratic transfers are notoriously slow: the Canadian Army was supposed to be issued new helicopters as far back as the 1990's and are still waiting today.

and in the context of publications with foreign circulation. It comes up because the people repeating it 1) don't know any history, 2) have heard it and think it sounds good, 3) can't be arsed to look into it - even as to efforts by deniers to use it. Classic case of de-evolution.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Hans » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:10 pm

Other than Trollo on the Jäger report at RODOH, was this brought up by some other deniers? (just figuring out if this is worth a blog posting or not).

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:26 pm

Hans, I'm traveling and posting from my iPhone which makes search a pain in the butt. Tonight I will look at the old Rodoh thread to see where Trollope got his, if he didn't invent it out of beers, bile and ignorance.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:38 pm

Somehow found it - something calling itself Melmoth opened the line of discussion with this post or thereabouts: https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... ces#p18136

Doesn't seem to warrant more attention than we've given it: just two ignoramuses making up nonsense.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby blake121666 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:03 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:To OP,

Ask any denier you encounter in a cremation debate, who comes off as a "cremation time expert" the following, truly simple question:

"How long does it take to cremate an infant?"

Then sit back and watch them squirm and start their usual evasive dance routines.


Do you mean your naively ignorant RODOH post where you didn;t get that I was saying that you could use any number you like for that and it wouldn't significantly change the discussion:

https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2663

And where the user been-there ended the discussion with Mattogno's quote stating:
The average duration for cremating an adult corpse individually was 50 min, whereas the cremation of a baby (average age: one year) together with an adult corpse (average age: 70 years) lasted 57 min.


This didn't sound right to your weird claims about "modern civilian crematories" and cremating a single infant corpse from a cold oven, .... etc? It was you doing the "dance routine" genius.

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby blake121666 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:34 pm

Denying-History wrote:The only alternative capacity that we have is from Kurt Prüfer. It's higher then the figure the denier gives. The figures are as follows;

crematorium I incinerated 250 corpses per day, crematoria II and III incinerated 800 corpses per day, and each of the smaller crematoria IV and V cremated 400 bodies, in total 2650. Still more then enough to cremate every body.

Then we have Pressac's conservative figures which still can cremate all the corpses even when one uses Carlo Mattogno's restrictive dates.

Crematorium 2: 1000 X 509 = 509,000 bodies

Crematorium 3: 1000 X 462 = 462,000 bodies

Crematorium 4: 500 X 50 = 25,000 corpses

Crematorium 5: 500 X 309 = 154,500 corpses

Total: 1,150,500

This still doesn't include crematorium 1 or the cremation pits.

He seems fixated on the idea that the cremation takes 1 hour... But this is not true, as cremations before 1900's have been recorded to burn corpses in under an hour see Zimmerman's Body disposal of Auschwitz.

In reality we have on record a capacity of 25 minute burn cycles.

Summary: In Gusen camp, which was a sub-camp of the Mauthausen concentration camp, 2 Topf cremation muffles sufficed to cremate 94 corpses in 20 working hours. Contrast this with claims by "Holocaust revisionists", who allege that it would take two, or three, or four hours, to cremate one corpse.


http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-hist ... index.html

It would then take another 20 minutes but by this point in time the corpse would pretty much be mostly broken down:

As soon as the remains of the corpses have fallen from the chamotte grid to the ash collection channel below, they should be pulled forward towards the ash removal door, using the scraper. Here they can be left a furhter 20 minutes to be fully consumed, then the ashes should be placed in a container and set aside to cool[...] (Technique p.136.)


So we're looking at a total cremation time of 40 to 45 minutes. Of which 20 to 25 minutes were in the muffle:

Code: Select all

[img]https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e0/f5/41/e0f54153ec4624be0cebaa5d099d4afa.jpg[/img]


And 20 minutes in the ash collector:

Code: Select all

[img]http://i.imgur.com/IlXqrg0h.jpg[/img]


There is more to the cremation process then this but I hope this helps.

Edit: making a small correct and adding text after the image of the ash collector.


I think you are mistaking the oven's firebox with the area under the grate holding the corpse with your pictures above and statement
So we're looking at a total cremation time of 40 to 45 minutes. Of which 20 to 25 minutes were in the muffle
. The corpse is of course "in the muffle" the entire time. It drops under the grate it is on into an ash collection channel. The picture you showed is of the firebox where coke is burned.

I think your pictures are for Buchenwald's coke-fired cremation ovens. The ovens at Gusen that you mentioned were gas ovens converted to run off the gas of gasified coke. Gasifiers at the sides of the ovens gasify the coke and route it to the gas firebox. For these Gusen ovens, Topf estimated a cremation per muffle rate of 33-40 minutes - better than you are saying (40 to 45 minutes). Per Mattogno section 6.1:
The second document is a letter dated July 14, 1941, in which Topf replied to a specific inquiry of the SS New Construction Office of the concentration camp Mauthausen:[134]

"30 to 36 bodies may be cremated in about 10 hours in the coke-fired Topf Double-Muffle Cremation Oven."

Based on this claim, one cremation in one muffle took 33-40 minutes, and the oven's theoretical capacity was 72-86 bodies per 24 hours.

[134] Letter from the Topf firm to the SS New Construction Office of the concentration camp Mauthausen, July 14, 1941. Weimar State Archives, LK 4651.


Mattogno thinks otherwise; but if I were you, I'd stick with this 33-40 minutes per muffle rate. The true analysis of that Gusen data falls inline with this, IMO. It is probably to complicated for you to understand though.

The board doesn't allow me to show your pictures - I've put them within "code" tags.

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby blake121666 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:49 pm

I am not able to see my posts and therefore read them and edit them right after posting. I'm pretty sure I mistakenly claimed that D-H's claim of 40-45 minutes for full-cremation is worse than the average 33-40 min per corpse per muffle. It of course isn't.

The full cremation would be about 53-60 minutes for the Gusen ovens: 33-40 min on the grid and about 20 min under it. One COULD achieve his 25-minute or so cremation rates with a gas oven; but not Gusen's gas oven using gasified coke.

The rate of coke usage based on these Gusen ovens would not be applicable to a coke oven as well - as I think appears to be claimed by many Revisionists (such as David Irving). The gasification step of course adds an inefficiency - probably on the order of 30%. But then again, gas would more efficiently cremate. So, just taking a stab at it, I would say a coke oven would burn about 20%-25% less than these Gusen gasified-coke gas ovens.

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Denying-History » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:24 pm

Guess I should respond to some of Blakes critiques, I think he body is inside the muffle, though I may have to double check.

Now as for the Gusen sheet it seems you may be using Mattogno's figures but he carelessly avoided that on November 7, 1941 94 corpses were cremated in under 20 hours with a burn cycle of 25 minutes each. Now as for the cremation cycle at Auschwitz it's admitted by Mattogno that Auschwitz's ovens were more effective the Gusen. He however carries over the cremation time he celculated at Gusen.

Mattogno also adds on time to the November 8th calculation as well claiming it took 24 hours and 30 minutes. This is exaggerated as the actual time of operation is 19 hours and 45 minutes.

Now running from this we have a burn cycle of 25 minutes over this. So it's quite safe to assume that Bischoff's figure for 20 minute per body in the muffle is accurate.

Edit, realized I got the wrong image.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby blake121666 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:58 pm

Denying-History wrote:Guess I should respond to some of Blakes critiques, as for the ash collector being located near the floor, I may be wrong. But last time I checked I thought that both the area you added Coke and removed it's ash was from back of the muffle:

Image

Now as for the Gusen sheet it seems you may be using Mattogno's figures but he carelessly avoided that on November 7, 1941 94 corpses were cremated in under 20 hours with a burn cycle of 25 minutes each. Now as for the cremation cycle at Auschwitz it's admitted by Mattogno that Auschwitz's ovens were more effective the Gusen. He however carries over the cremation time he celculated at Gusen.

Mattogno also adds on time to the November 8th calculation as well claiming it took 24 hours and 30 minutes. This is exaggerated as the actual time of operation is 19 hours and 45 minutes.

Now running from this we have a burn cycle of 25 minutes over this. So it's quite safe to assume that Bischoff's figure for 20 minute per body in the muffle is accurate.


It looks like you don't understand what Mattogno was claiming. I don't have my references on this handy at this exact moment because I am in the process of backing up my computer with those references - which will take many hours. I am using another computer at the moment.

But the whole deal with Mattogno in that analysis is that he is basing things on what he believes to be the fastest coke burn rate he thinks would have been possible in the gasifiers. And this is essentially correct, EXCEPT for the fact that his value for that fastest burn rate is off. I found a burn rate documented in an early 20th century technical journal (the same sort of thing that Mattogno used - except he used an Italian journal) that gives numbers that agree surprisingly well with Topf's empirically-based estimates of cremation rates of the Gusen ovens. Your figures give a coke consumption rate that is quite impossible to achieve. That is what Mattogno was saying all along - and no one appears to me to have even understood him.

When my computer is back, I will give you the rundown on the calculations I believe appropriate for those Gusen ovens. The RODOH thread turned into a real mess and it's really a bear to get what I am now saying - given all of the confusion I went through to get a reasonable understanding of this matter.

Nevertheless, I am not claiming that 20-25 minute average cremation times are in fact impossible - as has been my mistaken opinion not too long ago (maybe a year or so). I do not believe that those Gusen ovens achieved THAT low a time though - more like 33 minutes.

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Denying-History » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:10 pm

Blake, I never accused you of stating the cremation time was impossible.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby blake121666 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:20 pm

Denying-History wrote:Blake, I never accused you of stating the cremation time was impossible.

I just wanted to make it clear that I am not - given that I most certainly have before, and in the not-too-distant past.

As Nick and SM have shown in another thread, they wish to misinterpret posts based on, what, past opinions?

Anyhoo, just want to be as clear as possible.

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Denying-History » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:23 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Blake, I never accused you of stating the cremation time was impossible.

I just wanted to make it clear that I am not - given that I most certainly have before, and in the not-too-distant past.

As Nick and SM have shown in another thread, they wish to misinterpret posts based on, what, past opinions?

Anyhoo, just want to be as clear as possible.
Alls good, anyway I'll go a bit more into detail if you like about Mattogno's time calculation, I tried to keep it short because I'm on a mobile device at the moment.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:25 pm

blake121666 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:As Nick and SM have shown in another thread, they wish to misinterpret posts based on, what, past opinions?

If we both misinterpreted it in the same way simultaneously, it is because of what your wrote. You may have meant something different, but your post didn't convey it.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Balsamo » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:28 am

Denying-History wrote:The only alternative capacity that we have is from Kurt Prüfer. It's higher then the figure the denier gives. The figures are as follows;

crematorium I incinerated 250 corpses per day, crematoria II and III incinerated 800 corpses per day, and each of the smaller crematoria IV and V cremated 400 bodies, in total 2650. Still more then enough to cremate every body.

Then we have Pressac's conservative figures which still can cremate all the corpses even when one uses Carlo Mattogno's restrictive dates.

Crematorium 2: 1000 X 509 = 509,000 bodies

Crematorium 3: 1000 X 462 = 462,000 bodies

Crematorium 4: 500 X 50 = 25,000 corpses

Crematorium 5: 500 X 309 = 154,500 corpses

Total: 1,150,500

This still doesn't include crematorium 1 or the cremation pits.

He seems fixated on the idea that the cremation takes 1 hour... But this is not true, as cremations before 1900's have been recorded to burn corpses in under an hour see Zimmerman's Body disposal of Auschwitz.

In reality we have on record a capacity of 25 minute burn cycles.

Summary: In Gusen camp, which was a sub-camp of the Mauthausen concentration camp, 2 Topf cremation muffles sufficed to cremate 94 corpses in 20 working hours. Contrast this with claims by "Holocaust revisionists", who allege that it would take two, or three, or four hours, to cremate one corpse.


http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-hist ... index.html

It would then take another 20 minutes but by this point in time the corpse would pretty much be mostly broken down:

As soon as the remains of the corpses have fallen from the chamotte grid to the ash collection channel below, they should be pulled forward towards the ash removal door, using the scraper. Here they can be left a furhter 20 minutes to be fully consumed, then the ashes should be placed in a container and set aside to cool[...] (Technique p.136.)


So we're looking at a total cremation time of 40 to 45 minutes. Of which 20 to 25 minutes were in the muffle:

Image

And 20 minutes in the ash collector:

Image

There is more to the cremation process then this but I hope this helps.

Edit: making a small correct and adding text after the image of the ash collector.


The document is not a forgery and the capacities clearly possible.
But if the multiplicators stand for the days in service ( 509, 462, etc.) then, there is still a flaw in the reasoning.

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby blake121666 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:34 am

It looks like my post was incorrect. Those are the ash collectors in the front. It appears that all of the Auschwitz ovens used gasified coke. And the gasifiers were in the back of each oven. I never actually sat down and studied Mattogno's book. He calls the ovens "coke-fired" and I just assumed that was what they were. While I still haven't read through his book, I read enough to get that much straight.

The Auschwitz ovens all ran on gasified coke (mainly CO - as with woodgas or holzgas).

What document is Balsamo referring to? This one?

http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-hist ... witz/topf/

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Balmoral95 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:14 am

>"I never actually sat down and studied Mattogno's book."

Don't bother, it's the greatest cure for insomnia ever devised.

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Balsamo » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:17 pm

blake121666 wrote:It looks like my post was incorrect. Those are the ash collectors in the front. It appears that all of the Auschwitz ovens used gasified coke. And the gasifiers were in the back of each oven. I never actually sat down and studied Mattogno's book. He calls the ovens "coke-fired" and I just assumed that was what they were. While I still haven't read through his book, I read enough to get that much straight.

The Auschwitz ovens all ran on gasified coke (mainly CO - as with woodgas or holzgas).

What document is Balsamo referring to? This one?

http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-hist ... witz/topf/


I was not referring to any document.
The first one in the OP is leggit, and Oozy should ask his denier why would the Russians have faked a document that contradict their own estimate (3 times higher).

The flaw i was mentioning regards the perpetual focus on the cremation capacity of the ovens, and this only. like estimating the number of people killed by it only, the daily capacity being multiply by the number of days it was supposed to be in service.
The Soviet used this calculation to its limits and reached 4.000.000 victims.

It is like saying that a Ferrari can travel around the world in 143 hours, because it has a theoretical speed of like 280 an hour.
There is nothing wrong with the estimates of the first document, and even if you reduced the capacity of 3 corpses an hour, it would have been more than enough to reach the estimate of the number of victims.
My personal model/calculation which is probably too conservative ensures Birkenau a normal killing and body disposal capacity of 18.000 and 22.500 people weekly, without rush, stress or overheating the ovens.

Probably the most sterile debate i am aware of.

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:52 pm

> 94 corpses were cremated in under 20 hours with a burn cycle of 25 minutes each

IIRC this is based on an erroneous interpretation of the document.

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:00 pm

As hinted at above, it is important to differentiate between cremation and incineration. Incineration is the basic physical process. Cremation includes incineration but is different from it insofar as the goals and laws put constraints on it.

If one of the goals is bone whitening, cremation will take longer than incineration. If the law forbids mingling of ashes, no efficiency improvement is possible through continuous multiple incinerations.

Hence Prüfer was not lying to the Soviets that his ovens were for cremating one corpse in one muffle in one hour. Their incineration rate however was much greater.
Last edited by Sergey_Romanov on Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: One denier is pissing me off

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:09 pm

Soap presented at Nuremberg was real, not a Soviet fake, and made from human fat. In this sense it does not discredit the trial.
The IMT however committed a double interpretational mistake: put the soap in the Jewish part of the verdict even though the soap had nothing to do with Jews, and ascribed the soap to the Nazis, whereas it was an individual initiative of one professor to misuse a maceration byproduct. (The oft seen description of these attempts as "experiments" is misleading; soap-making was a well-established practice and needed no experimenting).

The recipe produced by the Soviets at the trial is suspicious and may be a forgery by the Polish security service.

No lampshade had ever been presented at any trial. They simply did not survive the war. And yes, most probably 1 or 2 lampshades from tanned human skins were produced in Buchenwald (albeit they had nothing to do with the silly Ilse Koch legend, even if they probably helped to originate it).

Shrunken heads were real.


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