This picture really bugs me

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Jeffk 1970
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This picture really bugs me

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:49 pm

So, I ran across this picture again today:



It irks me because I often see it attached to pictures of the EG. Generally the picture is cropped to only show the woman and the child, I added the full picture.

I no longer use it in discussions over the EG, primarily because to me it doesn't look right, it looks doctored and deniers use it themselves as proof of forgery.

So, does anyone have any info regarding this picture? It's possible that HC did something on it but I can't recall anything.

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:39 pm

This is what background I once found on the photo. I didn't know this source, so I just bookmarked it. OTOH the blurb references Janina Struk, whose book on Holocaust photos is illuminating and was an "early" warning against the proliferation of dodgy photos on the web (or at least dodgy captions). I'm pretty sure that this photograph is as purported. Roberto would know. I almost invariably see it identified as Ivangorod.

Don't use a photo if you don't have provenance, context, etc information about it, IMO.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:13 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:This is what background I once found on the photo. I didn't know this source, so I just bookmarked it. OTOH the blurb references Janina Struk, whose book on Holocaust photos is illuminating and was an "early" warning against the proliferation of dodgy photos on the web (or at least dodgy captions). I'm pretty sure that this photograph is as purported. Roberto would know. I almost invariably see it identified as Ivangorod.

Don't use a photo if you don't have provenance, context, etc information about it, IMO.


I don't.
There are too many discrepancies about it.

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:14 pm

Jon Harrison's HC blog item on the photo: links to a Wiki page giving provenance, as did the webpage I consulted ("The original print was owned by Tadeusz Mazur and Jerzy Tomaszewski and now resides in Historical Archives in Warsaw. The original German inscription on the back of the photograph reads, 'Ukraine 1942, Jewish Action [operation], Ivangorod.'")
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:15 pm

What are the discrepancies about this one?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:36 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:What are the discrepancies about this one?



There's no pit, the victims are clothed, the woman and child are too close to the soldier firing his weapon and the soldiers out of frame are pointing their rifles up instead of down at the victims on the ground. I can't see a reason why three soldiers would simultaneously take aim at a single woman and her child.

If this picture was taken in 1942 then I would expect the killers to have learned from previous actions.

I guess you could argue that a limited number of victims wouldn't necessitate the digging of a pit or the disrobing of the victims. I'm also not good enough with uniforms or insignia, that's more of a Matthew Ellard specialty so I don't know if these soldiers are regular Wehrmacht or something else.

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:38 pm

Also, generally the photos taken of firing actions take place from behind. Why would a photographer take the risk of being hit by taking that from the side?

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:43 pm

I've read the HC blog about this photo. I guess from what they say the photo is genuine, especially the provenance of it, that the Polish Underground intercepted it from a letter from the Ukraine.

So, my concerns are for naught. This is why I post this stuff, for my own peace of mind.

:D

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:44 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:What are the discrepancies about this one?



There's no pit,

There were executions of people not involving pits.

Jeffk 1970 wrote:the victims are clothed,

Victims were sometimes clothed, usually not, but their being clothed is not an anomaly, at least according to testimonies I've read.

Jeffk 1970 wrote:the woman and child are too close to the soldier firing his weapon

If the photo was taken with a long lens, the distance would appear less in the photo.

Jeffk 1970 wrote:the soldiers out of frame are pointing their rifles up instead of down at the victims on the ground. I can't see a reason why three soldiers would simultaneously take aim at a single woman and her child.

You don't know what's going on outside the frame. They may have been warning others or it might just be the moment at which the shutter was released.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:48 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Also, generally the photos taken of firing actions take place from behind. Why would a photographer take the risk of being hit by taking that from the side?

I don't see that at all. The photographer's vantage point doesn't seem dangerous to me. Photos of shooting actions are shot from a variety of pov's.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:50 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I've read the HC blog about this photo. I guess from what they say the photo is genuine, especially the provenance of it, that the Polish Underground intercepted it from a letter from the Ukraine.

So, my concerns are for naught. This is why I post this stuff, for my own peace of mind.

:D

LOL

That is what the forum is for. To discuss doubts and ideas . . .

The reason I've shied away from posting this photo ever is that I don't know about Ivangorod.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:51 pm

The pit might have been where one sees rocks and, maybe, disturbed earth on the right, and those rifles are pointing at a group, not a single person (even though, in other images there seem to have been more shooters than lined up victims also? Maybe a training/acclimatization exercise, or a solidarity thing - hard to tell who fired the killing shot out of a group firing simultaneously? Not all were hardened killers from the beginning...).

And considering from the angle, the photographer/camera seems to have been low to the ground? Maybe even in a pit/depression?

Image
Last edited by scrmbldggs on Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:53 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I've read the HC blog about this photo. I guess from what they say the photo is genuine, especially the provenance of it, that the Polish Underground intercepted it from a letter from the Ukraine.

So, my concerns are for naught. This is why I post this stuff, for my own peace of mind.

:D

LOL

That is what the forum is for. To discuss doubts and ideas . . .

The reason I've shied away from posting this photo ever is that I don't know about Ivangorod.


You also made good counterpoints to my points...LOL

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:54 pm

Photos, IMO, are tricky and never the literal truth. They are 2-dimensional, they stop time, we see prints from negatives, perspective is important, we don't know what is going on outside the frame or before/after the shutter release, there are quality issues, lenses distort what things look like, someone took the photo for a purpose, the negatives/prints have a chain of custody, etc. I have a big problem with posts of photos that seem to say, Look, literal proof! Like other evidence, they need to be evaluated in context, and, as you did, we need to ask critical questions about them on their own terms.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:57 pm

Good points, scrmbldggs. I was going to quote you directly but it messed up your original point.

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:58 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Photos, IMO, are tricky and never the literal truth. They are 2-dimensional, they stop time, we see prints from negatives, perspective is important, we don't know what is going on outside the frame or before/after the shutter release, there are quality issues, lenses distort what things look like, someone took the photo for a purpose, the negatives/prints have a chain of custody, etc. I have a big problem with posts of photos that seem to say, Look, literal proof! Like other evidence, they need to be evaluated in context, and, as you did, we need to ask critical questions about them on their own terms.



It is shocking that as a "believer" I don't automatically swallow whatever evidence is put in front of me.

:lol:

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:07 pm

:lol:

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:24 pm

LOL unfortunately there are people who think a photo settles a debate, because it has a "real look."
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:29 pm

...and is a train wreck... :-P

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:02 am

This is the photo that's always bugged me. Hitler looks too young. And there's something else weird about it. It could be a fake. I can't tell for sure:

Image
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:03 am

:rotfl:

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:08 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:This is the photo that's always bugged me. Hitler looks too young. And there's something else weird about it.

Oh my God!!!! You have cracked the case. Leonard Nimoy was in fact a very old Nazi who used to apply Hitler's youthful make-up. That's why Hitler looks old in all the photos where you can't also see Leonard Nimoy. :D

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:10 am

Leonard Nimoy?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:20 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:This is the photo that's always bugged me. Hitler looks too young. And there's something else weird about it.

Oh my God!!!! You have cracked the case. Leonard Nimoy was in fact a very old Nazi who used to apply Hitler's youthful make-up. That's why Hitler looks old in all the photos where you can't also see Leonard Nimoy. :D


The screeching, Holocaust denying, harridan Diane used to quote Spock until someone pointed out that Leonard Nimoy was Jewish.
She stopped doing it after that.

:lol:

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:26 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:This is the photo that's always bugged me. Hitler looks too young. And there's something else weird about it. It could be a fake. I can't tell for sure:

Image

:hmm:


The guy to our right later became known as "The fat guy in a concentration camp"?

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Xcalibur » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:16 am

The pic in the OP and the aerials of the A-B gas chamber have to be the most "litigated" pics between the denial crowd and normal folk on the internet. So many wasted words. Nice to see for a change some rational discussion.

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Gord » Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:17 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:There's no pit, the victims are clothed, the woman and child are too close to the soldier firing his weapon and the soldiers out of frame are pointing their rifles up instead of down at the victims on the ground. I can't see a reason why three soldiers would simultaneously take aim at a single woman and her child.

I've never looked at this image before, but are there soldiers kneeling on our right? My first impression was that someone was helping someone else disrobe. And in the centre of the image it looks like an adult holding a child who is partly disrobed. Someone is lying on the ground to the left, but are they dead or alive?

So my initial guess is that no one's been shot here yet, and people are being forced towards the right and made to disrobe.

But I've usually been wrong about this sort of stuff in the past, and my eyesight isn't what it used to be anymore.
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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:57 am

My two cents: the Heer was known to execute Soviet POW's en mass for basically the entirety of the war. Often the prisoners would be foreced to dig their own graves beforehand. I don't know if this method was used by the EG's but the folks on the right look to be doing some digging.

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby NathanC » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:18 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Photos, IMO, are tricky and never the literal truth. They are 2-dimensional, they stop time, we see prints from negatives, perspective is important, we don't know what is going on outside the frame or before/after the shutter release, there are quality issues, lenses distort what things look like, someone took the photo for a purpose, the negatives/prints have a chain of custody, etc. I have a big problem with posts of photos that seem to say, Look, literal proof! Like other evidence, they need to be evaluated in context, and, as you did, we need to ask critical questions about them on their own terms.



It is shocking that as a "believer" I don't automatically swallow whatever evidence is put in front of me.

:lol:


In an old JREF discussion, someone quoted SM/Lemmy Caution's well thought out explanation on the nature of photography in a futile attempt to convince EtienneSC to {!#%@} off. EtienneSC, being too dense and the "polite" version of Monstrous, missed the whole point and kept ranting about how "But...Walendy! Walendy said it was fake!"

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:25 am

NathanC wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Photos, IMO, are tricky and never the literal truth. They are 2-dimensional, they stop time, we see prints from negatives, perspective is important, we don't know what is going on outside the frame or before/after the shutter release, there are quality issues, lenses distort what things look like, someone took the photo for a purpose, the negatives/prints have a chain of custody, etc. I have a big problem with posts of photos that seem to say, Look, literal proof! Like other evidence, they need to be evaluated in context, and, as you did, we need to ask critical questions about them on their own terms.



It is shocking that as a "believer" I don't automatically swallow whatever evidence is put in front of me.

:lol:


In an old JREF discussion, someone quoted SM/Lemmy Caution's well thought out explanation on the nature of photography in a futile attempt to convince EtienneSC to {!#%@} off. EtienneSC, being too dense and the "polite" version of Monstrous, missed the whole point and kept ranting about how "But...Walendy! Walendy said it was fake!"


Ah, yes. The old Walendy disprove of the SK photos from Birkenau. To me it always looked like Walendy was the one who doctored the photo.

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:40 am

This is the iconic photo from the pictures secretly taken in 1944:



From http://ww2today.com/4-september-1944-secret-images-taken-by-auschwitz-sonderkommando

This is Udo Walendy's crappy doctored version:


http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndgcffor.html

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:17 am

You probably are familiar with discussions about the images here at SSF and also this http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... n-air.html

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:50 am

scrmbldggs wrote:You probably are familiar with discussions about the images here at SSF and also this http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... n-air.html


Oh, yes. I've had this argument in other places. HC even mentions the possibility that Walendy retouched the photos. To me it's obvious that he did. The original doesn't show that much detail, even when you expand it.

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:03 am

And very poorly done. And a truly silly portion is where the right leg of the outstretched body closest to the "kneeling figure" becomes the lower left leg of said kneeling figure (besides the extremely disproportionate upper body). Ridiculous...

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:18 am

scrmbldggs wrote:And very poorly done. And a truly silly portion is where the right leg of the outstretched body closest to the "kneeling figure" becomes the lower left leg of said kneeling figure. Ridiculous...


Walendy's version also makes the figure look like spaghetti.

I think the part that really pisses me off is Walendy's desecration of the dead, making a caricature of whoever that poor soul was.

Here are all four photographs, along with explanations about each.

https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Sonderkommando%20photographs&item_type=topic

G'night, scrmbldggs. We can talk more about this tomorrow (well, today, actually).

:sleep:

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Oozy_Substance » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:42 am

I saw deniers saying it is "obvious" that the soldiers are protecting the civilians in this picture, and not shooting at them (they are shooting something behind them).

Do we have any insights about that?

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:09 pm

Protecting them from rampaging bison?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:01 pm

Gord wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:There's no pit, the victims are clothed, the woman and child are too close to the soldier firing his weapon and the soldiers out of frame are pointing their rifles up instead of down at the victims on the ground. I can't see a reason why three soldiers would simultaneously take aim at a single woman and her child.

I've never looked at this image before, but are there soldiers kneeling on our right? My first impression was that someone was helping someone else disrobe. And in the centre of the image it looks like an adult holding a child who is partly disrobed. Someone is lying on the ground to the left, but are they dead or alive?

So my initial guess is that no one's been shot here yet, and people are being forced towards the right and made to disrobe.

But I've usually been wrong about this sort of stuff in the past, and my eyesight isn't what it used to be anymore.

The people huddled to the right are not soldiers. These look like four people, crouching. There appears to be a corpse, to the far left, lying in front of the soldier aiming his rifle - I take it (see below) that the "someone lying on the ground" has been shot and is attired. I don't think that in this case the victims, apparently numbering just six adults and one child, were forced to disrobe. I doubt that this small-scale operation was routinized in the typical open-pit manner. The soldier aiming the rifle at the woman with the child is in a uniform typical of the Einsatzgruppen, per Kurt Viewig former EG member. I cannot tell from the photo if the woman with the child is trying to move away from the shooter, her foot raised in flight, but this is what I assumed from her posture. OTOH she may have just been shot as the photo was taken and can be seen to be flinching (Fisk, cited above, raises this possibility). The wooden stake on the right, near the crouching people, which I took to be just a stake, can on magnification of the image at high resolution be made out as, according to Fisk, a shovel. This goes to the point about the absence of a "typical" pit - as Jeff_36 speculated in this case it's more likely that the victims were forced to dig their own grave, which could lie just out of frame (although the people on the right are not still digging at the time the photo was shot).

The Wikipedia commentary on the photo includes this very important note:
On February 25, 1962, Jerzy Tomaszewski and fellow editor Tadeusz Mazur, responded in Polish magazine Świat by publishing a second image from the set. It showed five armed men, four in uniform and one dressed as a civilian – standing looking towards the camera behind a number of bodies on the ground. The flat barren landscape is identical to that featured in the first photograph. One of the uniformed men, with a weapon slung around his neck, looks like the man pointing the gun at the woman and the child. On the back of the photograph, in the same handwriting as the first, is written: Ukraine 1942.

Having pursued this further than my feeble attempt 8 or so years ago, thanks to Jeffk's questions, I would definitely use this photo when appropriate.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Oozy_Substance » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:35 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Protecting them from rampaging bison?


No idea. Deniers and their shticks. I saw this picture with some lines drawn on it, allegedly showing the angle of the shot. A worthless attempt, probably.

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
The Wikipedia commentary on the photo includes this very important note:
On February 25, 1962, Jerzy Tomaszewski and fellow editor Tadeusz Mazur, responded in Polish magazine Świat by publishing a second image from the set. It showed five armed men, four in uniform and one dressed as a civilian – standing looking towards the camera behind a number of bodies on the ground. The flat barren landscape is identical to that featured in the first photograph. One of the uniformed men, with a weapon slung around his neck, looks like the man pointing the gun at the woman and the child. On the back of the photograph, in the same handwriting as the first, is written: Ukraine 1942.

Having pursued this further than my feeble attempt 8 or so years ago, thanks to Jeffk's questions, I would definitely use this photo when appropriate.


Is this 2nd picture available online somewhere?

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Re: This picture really bugs me

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:42 pm

I've searched but not found it. I did find this - the piece by Fisk (in The Independent), pulling together loose ends cited on Wiki and the link I first posted. Fisk concludes that the 4 people on the right are men and that the corpse on the left is that of a woman.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927


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