The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:06 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:https://youtu.be/QS0XVAvZbVk

This comment section... oh boy.


I turned the sound off when I listened to it and just did the closed captioning. It's really funny, YouTube "guesses" when it can't follow what the guy is saying.

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:13 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:LOL or, alternatively, Monstrous or David needs to post something stupid.

Where's Mary Q Contrary been btw? I miss natius . . .


I miss Natius, too.
Sigh.

Just think, we missed out on broken gas chambers, Jews raised by wolves, steam chambers, why Birkenau has barracks if the Nazis meant to exterminate all the Jews, etc.

I think David fled the forum, now all we have to look forward to Monstrous popping up and posting adverts to HH.

Oh, well, I guess we'll just have to talk about the history on its own.

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Denying-History » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:41 pm

I honestly am not missing them too much, the same level of intellect exists between David and those who post on YouTube.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:44 pm

At least David could write in complete sentences. I'm not saying he made sense, I'm just saying the complete sentences were nice.
In some ways I miss him because I've gone through some of his earliest posts.....and there is a lot I want to discuss with him.
:D

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:08 am

ahhell wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
ahhell wrote:Apropos of almost nothing, learned of a great Jewish Conspiracy theory from a late night radio show many years ago. The theory just recast all the Jewish bankers as NAZI bankers. A conspiracy theory for Jews rather than of Jews.


An odd subset of denial I've seen is that Jewish bankers funded the Nazi Movement.


Sounds simillar to "the Zionists actually made the holocaust happen so that they would get a country".


I've seen that the Zionists allowed the European Jews to suffer (though not die) and then made up the Holocaust to get a country of their own.
I've seen the Zionists are the real Jews who allowed fake Jews to be killed to get a country for the real Jews.


And I've seen "the Zionists were fake Jews who allowed the real Jews to be killed to get a country for the fake Jews". I am not making that up.

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:21 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:I haven't seen anything like it on the Conspiracies subforum, so I thought to open one in here, as Holocaust Denial and Jewish conspiracies are basically inseperable. You sorta have to accept an evil Jewish shadow goverment if you want to accept that there was no Holocaust, you can't really have one without the other, and many arguments with deniers do tend to slide into these kinds of debates. So this is basically the topic for anyone wanting to laugh at a denier's "Talmudic" "Quotes" or about the Jews' plans to turn all white males into gay pedophiles or any other loony anti Jewish paranoid fantasies.

Why must somebody subscribe to a "Jewish conspiracy" if they question the details of an event that began with the mass murder of disabled Germans and ended up murdering millions upon millions of Jehovah's Witness, Jews, LGBT, etc? Maybe somebody really hates answering the door to find a stranger offering them a copy of their Watchtower magazine so that's why they deny the Holocaust. It seems rather conceited that some people think it's always about the Jews. (I sure am glad that most of the people here are not Jewish or I'd be called an antisemite for saying that!)

To kick things off I'll start with this funny bit:

Now, Alt-righters would always say to things.
1. Jews own the media therefore media is biased towards Jews

That is good catch! Of course, one example doesn't prove a pattern but it's a clear example of blatant hypocrisy from the same publication only a few months apart. I like it.
2. Jews promote multiculturalism and immigration in the West in order to destroy white nations while avoiding it themselves

That's ridiculous. Jews promote multiculturalism and diversity for themselves as well as for all other people because they recognize the value a diverse society. What they--and every religion--don't believe in is assimilation through intermarriage with people of a different faith.

This is a HUGE difference that many people don't quite understand. Jews don't believe it's OK to want to preserve the Jewish character of Israel by denying non-Jewish immigration but that Christians who want to preserve the Christian character of their nation by denying non-Christians entry are "bigots" or "intolerant" or some such nonsense.

I recently read a discussion online where a religious Jew offered a wonderful summary of his position on assimilation. If there were any Jews participating in our subforum I think that they would agree with what this man said. He said that when he has lived among groups of people who choose to not assimilate into the majority culture, like the Amish or the Hopi, he didn't take it personally. Being Jewish, he understood their desire to preserve a culture and a way of life that was valuable to them and in which they found meaning. It was very illuminating to me to have a Jewish man explain to me why there's nothing wrong with White Nationalism.

Here's another example of Judaism's belief in universal multiculturalism. This is a video of a rabbi silently agreeing with Richard "punch a Nazi" Spencer that White Nationalists in the United States have the same right to non-assimilation as do the Jews in Israel.

See, there's no hypocrisy here.
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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:32 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Why must somebody subscribe to a "Jewish conspiracy" if they question the details of an event that began with the mass murder of disabled Germans and ended up murdering millions upon millions of Jehovah's Witness, Jews, LGBT, etc?


Because most of the deniers we encounter on-line believe in some type of Jewish conspiracy, coupled with some type of British/US/USSR conspiracy. How that all meshes is not really clear, this is why I once asked all of our resident deniers to provide evidence on this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27177

However, all of our deniers have deserted this sub forum, especially David, who at one time felt compelled to post things at least once a day.

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:29 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Why must somebody subscribe to a "Jewish conspiracy" if they question the details of an event that began with the mass murder of disabled Germans and ended up murdering millions upon millions of Jehovah's Witness, Jews, LGBT, etc?

Mostly deniers do, it's how they're wired, I guess, it's not much of a secret, you can read their antisemitic nonsense at places like Rodoh, but, strictly speaking, you're right, there are other reasons why people might, er, deny the Nazis' crimes. Maybe they are ignorant. Maybe they think it's a way to be clever and piss people off. Maybe they have cognitive disorders. They might not have the tools and skills to assess evidence. It's possible they don't understand what constitutes criminal behavior or that they are unethical themselves. They might just be disingenuous shitheads. But mostly they believe in some kind of hoax, as you made clear you do when you recommended Butz's book in Jeffk's thread, which you then failed to explain let alone defend. And mostly deniers account for whatever hoax they try purveying in terms of a supposed Jewish agenda.

You yourself seem to have a cognitive disorder of some sort, for example, which leads you to come up with gems like "question the details" when you mean "negate the key elements of."

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Maybe somebody really hates answering the door to find a stranger offering them a copy of their Watchtower magazine so that's why they deny the Holocaust.

Uh, sure. Yeah, study of the Holocaust is just like religious proselytizing - in the heads of antisemites.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:It seems rather conceited that some people think it's always about the Jews.

Crazy that, thinking that the mass murder of millions of Jews had anything to do with Jews.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:If there were any Jews participating in our subforum I think that they would agree with what this man said.

How nice of you to step up and tell us what "any Jews" participating here are likely to think.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:39 am

Mary drive by?

Maybe the aliens decided Earth was no longer worth visiting now that Trump is president.

Or, maybe the Bowling Green Massacre scared them off.

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:12 am

Yes Mary, you can't believe in Holocaust denial without believing in a Jewish cabal.

If the holocaust didn't happen yet billions of people believe that it did, it means that there's a 70 years old systematic lying on behalf of the "kikes".
It means there are Jews who monitor old ex-nazis 24/7 so they would'nt publish a tell-all memoir or tell the truth to their children on their deathbed. It means that there's a comitee of Jews who fabricate new " "evidence" " on a yearly basis. It means the Jews have a physical grip on academia and media where they yet again monitor things 24/7 so nobody would tell the truth.

If you reject any of the above, you are probably not as revisioist-ic as you might have thought you are.

You can't have one without the other. It's like love and marrige.
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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:04 pm

Don't worry: Mary believes in such a hoax. She's told us so: "It took a concerted PR effort by interested parties to make sure proper attention was paid to the suffering of the Jews." Mary's problem is that she can't defend her belief and she gets snarky and frustrated about her shortcomings.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Balsamo » Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:34 pm

Marry:

Why must somebody subscribe to a "Jewish conspiracy" if they question the details of an event that began with the mass murder of disabled Germans and ended up murdering millions upon millions of Jehovah's Witness, Jews, LGBT, etc? Maybe somebody really hates answering the door to find a stranger offering them a copy of their Watchtower magazine so that's why they deny the Holocaust. It seems rather conceited that some people think it's always about the Jews. (I sure am glad that most of the people here are not Jewish or I'd be called an antisemite for saying that!)


Nice try, marry...
The only difference is that if someone is contesting or denying that millions or even thousands of Jehovah's witnesses were victims of a genocide, he would not be a denier but someone with some knowledge...The same can be said for those LGTB, a homosexuality was a crime in Nazi Germany as it has been a crime during the Weimar republic, the Nazis only increased the penalties.
Other countries even democratic ones had laws criminalizing homosexuality.
In Great Britain, homosexuals caught could face the death penalty up to 1861. But it remained a crime long after the war. Like in Sweden, homosexuals caught had to chose between jail or sterilization. Everyone knows the case of Alan Turing!

In France where it was decriminalized by the French revolution, the topic remained hot up to the 1980's. While it is known that Petain introduced new legislation against homosexual (actually it placed a minimum age for any homosexual relations, 21 years for gays versus 13 years for heterosexuals...)...Fewer know that the legislation was kept by General de Gaulle...up to 1982!

I personally disagree with any attempt to include the "Rose Triangle" into the Holocaust.

Another statistic is the "Nacht und Nebel" prisoners who - with the exception with Russian Pows - were the most exposed. Well in the case of France, the death rate among this group was around 50 or 55%, while it was 95% for the Jews.

So trying to expand the definition of the Holocaust in order to make it less Jewish seems opportunistic at best.

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:34 pm

Balsamo wrote:Marry:

Why must somebody subscribe to a "Jewish conspiracy" if they question the details of an event that began with the mass murder of disabled Germans and ended up murdering millions upon millions of Jehovah's Witness, Jews, LGBT, etc? Maybe somebody really hates answering the door to find a stranger offering them a copy of their Watchtower magazine so that's why they deny the Holocaust. It seems rather conceited that some people think it's always about the Jews. (I sure am glad that most of the people here are not Jewish or I'd be called an antisemite for saying that!)


Nice try, marry...
The only difference is that if someone is contesting or denying that millions or even thousands of Jehovah's witnesses were victims of a genocide, he would not be a denier but someone with some knowledge.

Good point!

Balsamo wrote:I personally disagree with any attempt to include the "Rose Triangle" into the Holocaust.

Leaving aside debate over the problematic term Holocaust, my understanding of the common usage is that it refers, imprecisely, to Nazi efforts to exterminate European Jews and associated anti-Jewish measures (the scope of what's associated not always clear to me). (The USHMM, for example, uses the phrase "state-sponsored persecution and murder of of six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators.") But the Holocaust doesn't embrace all the crimes which the Nazis committed during the war or against Germans before the war. Marydogz knows all this but likes to pretend she doesn't.

Balsamo wrote:Another statistic is the "Nacht und Nebel" prisoners who - with the exception with Russian Pows - were the most exposed. Well in the case of France, the death rate among this group was around 50 or 55%, while it was 95% for the Jews.

Do you know of a scholarly treatment of NN?

Balsamo wrote:So trying to expand the definition of the Holocaust in order to make it less Jewish seems opportunistic at best.

Well said.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Balsamo » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:26 am

Statmec:
my understanding of the common usage is that it refers, imprecisely, to Nazi efforts to exterminate European Jews and associated anti-Jewish measures (the scope of what's associated not always clear to me).


Actually, i would narrow it to "Nazi efforts to exterminate European Jews"...Indeed, some like to include anti-Jewish measures, from 1933 to the end, but i see it like the last trace of "intentionalism". But as you know, i don't like to use the term Holocaust in the first place, for that very reason. Shoah is much more appropriate in my views, or just "genocide".
But as a matter of fact, the concept and brand "Holocaust" has become so popular that it is no surprise that some non-jewish groups want a part of it.
It does annoy me as i hate amalgams.

Do you know of a scholarly treatment of NN?


As Strange as it may sound, no...
There is of course a familial knowledge given the experiences (note that in the case of my family, the ratio is more like a 66% death rate). And although there are some discussions and interrogations for one, in my opinion, non of them died in a gas chamber, and none were "innocent" in a Nazi perspective.
Their death is not the result of a genocidal policy.

It is mostly treated in larger topics the resistance, the occupation policies, etc... Of course, there are many testimonies available, but a work dedicated specially to the subject, i don't know. Maybe Nick might be aware of some?

IIRC, i first mention this statistic in the "Raffle" discussion with David...

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:53 am

Balsamo wrote:Statmec:
my understanding of the common usage is that it refers, imprecisely, to Nazi efforts to exterminate European Jews and associated anti-Jewish measures (the scope of what's associated not always clear to me).


Actually, i would narrow it to "Nazi efforts to exterminate European Jews"...Indeed, some like to include anti-Jewish measures, from 1933 to the end, but i see it like the last trace of "intentionalism". But as you know, i don't like to use the term Holocaust in the first place, for that very reason. Shoah is much more appropriate in my views, or just "genocide".

Most definitions I have come across are more like the USHMM's. I think we both agree on the benefit of being more precise about things.

Balsamo wrote:
Do you know of a scholarly treatment of NN?

As Strange as it may sound, no...

I expected not, as I've not found anything either, having looked.

Balsamo wrote:There is of course a familial knowledge given the experiences (note that in the case of my family, the ratio is more like a 66% death rate). And although there are some discussions and interrogations for one, in my opinion, non of them died in a gas chamber, and none were "innocent" in a Nazi perspective.
Their death is not the result of a genocidal policy.

Sorry to hear about your family. No, NN was not part of a genocidal policy or practice but political in nature. Which relates to my comment to Jeff_36 about hyper-empiricism, I guess. Making distinctions among different parts of Nazi policy and practice.

Balsamo wrote:in the "Raffle" discussion with David...

Poor David, perhaps lost at Bowling Green . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:17 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Don't worry: Mary believes in such a hoax. She's told us so: "It took a concerted PR effort by interested parties to make sure proper attention was paid to the suffering of the Jews." Mary's problem is that she can't defend her belief and she gets snarky and frustrated about her shortcomings.
So throughout World War II, the military and political leaders as well as the general public was aware of and concerned about what was happening to the Jews in Axis countries? That's funny. The memos and letters written by Jacob Robinson that are on file at the Truman library make it sound like he had to work really hard to make sure the Jews were properly recognized during the war crimes trials. Maybe he was lying to make himself look important. Or, maybe he had a persecution complex and was just complaining, which fits the stereotype of Jews, which is something I can say without offending anybody because nobody here is Jewish.
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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:20 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Don't worry: Mary believes in such a hoax. She's told us so: "It took a concerted PR effort by interested parties to make sure proper attention was paid to the suffering of the Jews." Mary's problem is that she can't defend her belief and she gets snarky and frustrated about her shortcomings.
So throughout World War II, the military and political leaders as well as the general public was aware of and concerned about what was happening to the Jews in Axis countries? That's funny. The memos and letters written by Jacob Robinson that are on file at the Truman library make it sound like he had to work really hard to make sure the Jews were properly recognized during the war crimes trials. Maybe he was lying to make himself look important. Or, maybe he had a persecution complex and was just complaining, which fits the stereotype of Jews, which is something I can say without offending anybody because nobody here is Jewish.



https://youtu.be/R4GLAKEjU4w

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:29 am

Balsamo wrote:Marry:

Why must somebody subscribe to a "Jewish conspiracy" if they question the details of an event that began with the mass murder of disabled Germans and ended up murdering millions upon millions of Jehovah's Witness, Jews, LGBT, etc? Maybe somebody really hates answering the door to find a stranger offering them a copy of their Watchtower magazine so that's why they deny the Holocaust. It seems rather conceited that some people think it's always about the Jews. (I sure am glad that most of the people here are not Jewish or I'd be called an antisemite for saying that!)


Nice try, marry...
The only difference is that if someone is contesting or denying that millions or even thousands of Jehovah's witnesses were victims of a genocide, he would not be a denier but someone with some knowledge...The same can be said for those LGTB, a homosexuality was a crime in Nazi Germany as it has been a crime during the Weimar republic, the Nazis only increased the penalties.
Other countries even democratic ones had laws criminalizing homosexuality.
In Great Britain, homosexuals caught could face the death penalty up to 1861. But it remained a crime long after the war. Like in Sweden, homosexuals caught had to chose between jail or sterilization. Everyone knows the case of Alan Turing!

In France where it was decriminalized by the French revolution, the topic remained hot up to the 1980's. While it is known that Petain introduced new legislation against homosexual (actually it placed a minimum age for any homosexual relations, 21 years for gays versus 13 years for heterosexuals...)...Fewer know that the legislation was kept by General de Gaulle...up to 1982!

I personally disagree with any attempt to include the "Rose Triangle" into the Holocaust.

Another statistic is the "Nacht und Nebel" prisoners who - with the exception with Russian Pows - were the most exposed. Well in the case of France, the death rate among this group was around 50 or 55%, while it was 95% for the Jews.

So trying to expand the definition of the Holocaust in order to make it less Jewish seems opportunistic at best.

I agree. It's only about the Jews when it needs to be, like when you need to believe that antisemitism is behind revisionism and it's about all of humanity when you need to make non-Jews care about it. I say the definition of the Holocaust is: what happened to the Jews during World War II. Period. But I'm happy to shove Simon Wiesenthal in anybody's face when I can score a point.
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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:33 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Balsamo wrote:Marry:

Why must somebody subscribe to a "Jewish conspiracy" if they question the details of an event that began with the mass murder of disabled Germans and ended up murdering millions upon millions of Jehovah's Witness, Jews, LGBT, etc? Maybe somebody really hates answering the door to find a stranger offering them a copy of their Watchtower magazine so that's why they deny the Holocaust. It seems rather conceited that some people think it's always about the Jews. (I sure am glad that most of the people here are not Jewish or I'd be called an antisemite for saying that!)


Nice try, marry...
The only difference is that if someone is contesting or denying that millions or even thousands of Jehovah's witnesses were victims of a genocide, he would not be a denier but someone with some knowledge...The same can be said for those LGTB, a homosexuality was a crime in Nazi Germany as it has been a crime during the Weimar republic, the Nazis only increased the penalties.
Other countries even democratic ones had laws criminalizing homosexuality.
In Great Britain, homosexuals caught could face the death penalty up to 1861. But it remained a crime long after the war. Like in Sweden, homosexuals caught had to chose between jail or sterilization. Everyone knows the case of Alan Turing!

In France where it was decriminalized by the French revolution, the topic remained hot up to the 1980's. While it is known that Petain introduced new legislation against homosexual (actually it placed a minimum age for any homosexual relations, 21 years for gays versus 13 years for heterosexuals...)...Fewer know that the legislation was kept by General de Gaulle...up to 1982!

I personally disagree with any attempt to include the "Rose Triangle" into the Holocaust.

Another statistic is the "Nacht und Nebel" prisoners who - with the exception with Russian Pows - were the most exposed. Well in the case of France, the death rate among this group was around 50 or 55%, while it was 95% for the Jews.

So trying to expand the definition of the Holocaust in order to make it less Jewish seems opportunistic at best.

I agree. It's only about the Jews when it needs to be, like when you need to believe that antisemitism is behind revisionism and it's about all of humanity when you need to make non-Jews care about it. I say the definition of the Holocaust is: what happened to the Jews during World War II. Period. But I'm happy to shove Simon Wiesenthal in anybody's face when I can score a point.




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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:36 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Don't worry: Mary believes in such a hoax. She's told us so: "It took a concerted PR effort by interested parties to make sure proper attention was paid to the suffering of the Jews." Mary's problem is that she can't defend her belief and she gets snarky and frustrated about her shortcomings.
So throughout World War II, the military and political leaders as well as the general public was aware of and concerned about what was happening to the Jews in Axis countries? That's funny. The memos and letters written by Jacob Robinson that are on file at the Truman library make it sound like he had to work really hard to make sure the Jews were properly recognized during the war crimes trials. Maybe he was lying to make himself look important. Or, maybe he had a persecution complex and was just complaining, which fits the stereotype of Jews, which is something I can say without offending anybody because nobody here is Jewish.


According to some of the deniers I've dealt with I'm Hasbara. Does that count?
I've also been called a Jew because deniers can't believe someone who isn't a denier is not a Jew. Does that count?

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:09 am

Mary, there are at least three Jews I'm aware of on this forum. Self included. Shabat Shalom.
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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:48 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Don't worry: Mary believes in such a hoax. She's told us so: "It took a concerted PR effort by interested parties to make sure proper attention was paid to the suffering of the Jews." Mary's problem is that she can't defend her belief and she gets snarky and frustrated about her shortcomings.
So throughout World War II, the military and political leaders as well as the general public was aware of and concerned about what was happening to the Jews in Axis countries? That's funny. The memos and letters written by Jacob Robinson that are on file at the Truman library make it sound like he had to work really hard to make sure the Jews were properly recognized during the war crimes trials. Maybe he was lying to make himself look important. Or, maybe he had a persecution complex and was just complaining, which fits the stereotype of Jews, which is something I can say without offending anybody because nobody here is Jewish.

Thank you, again, for confirming your obsession with the supposed Jewish promotion of events that in your opinion didn't happen.

But, of course, your comments were in the context of this: "Yes, because it needed the agreement of all parties to continue this hoax in order for it to work," not in the context of efforts to achieve recognition of what was happening. And you wrote that Jewish "efforts obviously paid off because we're now at the point where the evidence of all the bad things that happened to innocent civilians under Nazi occupation is used as evidence of the suffering of the Jews. The conditions the Americans and British found in the camps upon liberation now tells the story of Jewish suffering." Which is what deniers try doing, not historians or "interested parties." Time and again we have to remind you, David and others that, for example, the shrunken heads you like expressing faux horror about were introduced at the IMT as evidence of atrocities against Poles, not Jews. Which books that we have used in this forum conflate the Buchenwald shrunken heads with the mass murder of Jews?

A "pay off" would have been, rather, Allied recognition of the extermination campaigns of the Nazis and their associates and strong efforts to do something about the mass murder. But during the war those Allied countries didn't give great attention to the extermination of the Jews, despite the efforts of, for example, the Polish Underground to get word out and some action (see Fleming's recent book on this point). The aim of the Underground's communications was getting "proper attention to the suffering of the Jews" exactly but first and foremost to stop the damned slaughter. Likewise with Jewish activists in Warsaw and other places.

But you raise an interesting question. The suffering of which you mention came from the persecution and genocide which you deny; the activists you harp on tried to create awareness of the genocide. What should people have done who witnessed persecution and genocide, denied it the way you do? What is the proper attention to be given to the murder of millions of civilians through state-sponsored violence?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:52 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:I agree. It's only about the Jews when it needs to be, like when

the Nazis and their allies murder of 5 million Jews in an effort to wipe them out and create a Europe without Jews. Then, of course, one must deal with issues concerning Jews, Jewish communities in Europe, Jewish responses, the Nazis' view of the Jewish question, and other related issues. Pretty much as Balsamo said. Finally you get it. Well, you did all along but have this silly view that you can attribute to others your own obsessions.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:59 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:According to some of the deniers I've dealt with I'm Hasbara. Does that count?
I've also been called a Jew because deniers can't believe someone who isn't a denier is not a Jew. Does that count?

Bankdraft at Rodoh1.0 ID'ed me as a probable Jew for debating with him about Churchill's history of the war and Leuchter. Pretty much the same reasoning you mention, he couldn't comprehend how someone could argue against denial on such issues unless he or she was trying to advance some Jewish agenda or promote a special Jewish narrative. Bankdraft was every bit as bereft as Mary, but he drank a lot of beer when posting and blurted out a lot of stuff very carelessly.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:33 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Don't worry: Mary believes in such a hoax. She's told us so: "It took a concerted PR effort by interested parties to make sure proper attention was paid to the suffering of the Jews." Mary's problem is that she can't defend her belief and she gets snarky and frustrated about her shortcomings.
So throughout World War II, the military and political leaders as well as the general public was aware of and concerned about what was happening to the Jews in Axis countries? That's funny. The memos and letters written by Jacob Robinson that are on file at the Truman library make it sound like he had to work really hard to make sure the Jews were properly recognized during the war crimes trials. Maybe he was lying to make himself look important. Or, maybe he had a persecution complex and was just complaining, which fits the stereotype of Jews, which is something I can say without offending anybody because nobody here is Jewish.

Thank you, again, for confirming your obsession with the supposed Jewish promotion of events that in your opinion didn't happen.

You asked for evidence of Jewish promotion of Jewish suffering and, when I show it to you, you accuse me of obsessing over it?

But, of course, your comments were in the context of this: "Yes, because it needed the agreement of all parties to continue this hoax in order for it to work," not in the context of efforts to achieve recognition of what was happening. And you wrote that Jewish "efforts obviously paid off because we're now at the point where the evidence of all the bad things that happened to innocent civilians under Nazi occupation is used as evidence of the suffering of the Jews. The conditions the Americans and British found in the camps upon liberation now tells the story of Jewish suffering." Which is what deniers try doing, not historians or "interested parties."

What are you talking about? Deniers use photographs from the western camps to tell the story of Jewish suffering? We're not the people doing the promoting of the Holocaust. Neither are we the people who use the evidence for Nazi barbarity in general to prove Jewish suffering.


Time and again we have to remind you, David and others that, for example, the shrunken heads you like expressing faux horror about were introduced at the IMT as evidence of atrocities against Poles, not Jews.

OK, I think I got it now: The Allies made up BS evidence to prove POLES suffered but everything they introduced to prove that JEWS suffered was spot-on accurate.

Which books that we have used in this forum conflate the Buchenwald shrunken heads with the mass murder of Jews?

Why in the world would the books you guys have used in this forum be relevant? The books you read don't really matter very much when information the public receives from places like the USHMM conflates the evidence from the Nuremberg trials with the Holocaust and shows us pictures of the conditions in the western camps as evidence for the Holocaust. You seem to forget that the USHMM has Eisenhower's quote about what he saw at Ohrdruf and his concern that someday people might deny it carved in stone on the outside of building but nowhere does it say that the things he saw that "beggar description" wasn't actually evidence for the Holocaust and that it wasn't the Holocaust that he thought people might someday deny.

A "pay off" would have been, rather, Allied recognition of the extermination campaigns of the Nazis and their associates and strong efforts to do something about the mass murder. But during the war those Allied countries didn't give great attention to the extermination of the Jews, despite the efforts of, for example, the Polish Underground to get word out and some action (see Fleming's recent book on this point). The aim of the Underground's communications was getting "proper attention to the suffering of the Jews" exactly but first and foremost to stop the damned slaughter. Likewise with Jewish activists in Warsaw and other places.
Try writing complete sentences if you want a response.

But you raise an interesting question. The suffering of which you mention came from the persecution and genocide which you deny; the activists you harp on tried to create awareness of the genocide. What should people have done who witnessed persecution and genocide, denied it the way you do? What is the proper attention to be given to the murder of millions of civilians through state-sponsored violence?

People should use evidence of persecution and genocide of the Jews to prove persecution and genocide of the Jews instead of using evidence that lots of people suffered to prove that the Jews were singled out.
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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:40 am

OK, well at least we have one of our deniers back.

I wonder what we can do to have Eric Hunt come, I'm disappointed I missed him.

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:24 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:You asked for evidence of Jewish promotion of Jewish suffering and, when I show it to you, you accuse me of obsessing over it?

I don't think I asked for anything.

But "Jewish suffering" and "evidence for the mass murder of Jews" are not synonymous, and we've been discussing the latter.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:What are you talking about? Deniers use photographs from the western camps to tell the story of Jewish suffering? We're not the people doing the promoting of the Holocaust. Neither are we the people who use the evidence for Nazi barbarity in general to prove Jewish suffering.

No, deniers use photos and movies from the general KL system, as you have and as Monstrous has and as deniers have long done with the s atrocities in the KLs, to deny the mass murders committed in the east, pretending that historians should be realize, say, that the incarceration of Jews incarcerated in 1938 at Dachau disproves mass murder programs took place during the war years.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:OK, I think I got it now: The Allies made up BS evidence to prove POLES suffered but everything they introduced to prove that JEWS suffered was spot-on accurate.

Where did I write that the Allies made up BS evidence? (Perhaps you should read Oozy's thread "One Denier is pissing me off" where we discuss problematic evidence for atrocities committed against Jews, although maybe not as doing so would spoil the dishonest BS you keep trying to pull.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Why in the world would the books you guys have used in this forum be relevant?

Well, since you're accusing us of baseless promotion of Jewish suffering, what we cite and what we say has some relevance. Or do you want a free hand just to make up whatever you wish?

Mary Q Contrary wrote:The books you read don't really matter very much when information the public receives from places like the USHMM conflates the evidence from the Nuremberg trials with the Holocaust and shows us pictures of the conditions in the western camps as evidence for the Holocaust. You seem to forget that the USHMM has Eisenhower's quote about what he saw at Ohrdruf and his concern that someday people might deny it carved in stone on the outside of building but nowhere does it say that the things he saw that "beggar description" wasn't actually evidence for the Holocaust and that it wasn't the Holocaust that he thought people might someday deny.

Source please. If you think I am defending the occasional conflation of themes by the USHMM or others, you're wrong. Perhaps you're trying to tell us that your concern, and the reason you're a Holocaust denier - although this doesn't make a lot of sense - is that you want popular sources to be be error-free in their use of quotations about the mass murder of the Jews. Or to be more rigorous in their presentation of different categories of Nazi criminality.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Try writing complete sentences if you want a response.

I'm not looking for a response - this isn't the thread where Monstrous wanted to discuss Auschwitz or the thread for discussion of Monstrous's reading. I did, however, drop the word "not." I promise it will happen again.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:People should use evidence of persecution and genocide of the Jews to prove persecution and genocide of the Jews instead of using evidence that lots of people suffered to prove that the Jews were singled out.

Which is what "people" do, and exactly what Balsamo explained to you. And which is why the books and other sources "we people" cite are relevant, because it is how the "people" producing scholarship work. So we seem to be all set. Glad we've gotten your confusion cleared up.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:20 pm

How long before someone blames the (((Jews))) for the terror attacks in London?
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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:35 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:How long before someone blames the (((Jews))) for the terror attacks in London?



They won't. They prefer Muslims right now.

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:40 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:How long before someone blames the (((Jews))) for the terror attacks in London?



They won't. They prefer Muslims right now.


They say that (((ze Juden))) are behind Muslim immigration, multiculrturalism and cultural marxism, which makes them responsable for terror.

Look at the comment section in a video called " The Synagouge of Satan".
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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:59 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:How long before someone blames the (((Jews))) for the terror attacks in London?



They won't. They prefer Muslims right now.


They say that (((ze Juden))) are behind Muslim immigration, multiculrturalism and cultural marxism, which makes them responsable for terror.

Look at the comment section in a video called " The Synagouge of Satan".


the Frankfurter School was a silly gang of academic losers. I don't see how they can be seen as having influence beyond the grave, or how their opinions can be seen as representative of your opinions, or the opinions of, say, Xcalibur's mother.

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:35 am

Egad, a frankfurter, in English, is a hot dog or a wiener; the English for the "third way" academic movement, of Hegelian, humanity Marxists, is "Frankfurt School", and thinkers of this stripe were not a "silly gang" - even if the influence of "Frankfurt" theorists peaked in the '60s-'70s. Habermas, for one, continued the work for decades after that.

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:21 am

:lol:

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:16 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Egad, a frankfurter, in English, is a hot dog or a wiener;


I was well aware. I stated that as a means of mocking and deriding them.

the English for the "third way" academic movement, of Hegelian, humanity Marxists, is "Frankfurt School", and thinkers of this stripe were not a "silly gang"


Their theories were stupid and they never held any form of public office. They were the ultimate crowd of Ivory Tower do-nothings. Contrast that with the likes of Kissinger or Bhrezinsky, who had real, concrete influence.

even if the influence of "Frankfurt" theorists peaked in the '60s-'70s. Habermas, for one, continued the work for decades after that.


Marcuse petered out after 1965.

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:16 am

Joke was lost on me, probably because I don't consider myself above these guys. As a whole, the thinkers associated with the Frankfurt School are not my cup of tea, but belittle and mock them I wouldn't. They influenced some important currents of thought - humanist Marxism, critical theory - again, whatever you make of these currents.

The Frankfurt School, of course, was hardly synonymous with Marcuse, one of its lighter weights if bigger names, and, I hate to say, I started college in '69 and Marcuse was required reading through my undergraduate years. Lukacs, a big influence on the school, was still read during my graduate school years, as were Habermas and Adorno. Habermas himself engaged with the deconstructionists as late as the '80s and '90s and remained active past the year 2000. Also, why on earth would scholars and theorists have to hold office to be taken seriously? That's like saying that John Rawls or Russell Kirk or Richard Rorty or name your intellectual were worthless because they didn't bomb villages and cities and hospitals in Vietnam or help build up the Mujahideen in Afghanistan.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:30 pm

The basic thrust of my argument is that the Frankfurt School had no real influence on state level policymaking. This puts a hole in the augment of the alt-right, which holds that the "cultural Marxists" have steered the course of history since the middle of the 20th century an have organized the downfall of the west. In reality they are among the most criticized and derided of philosophers - Marcuse is a punch line in some circles.

The ideas of Irving Kristol have been far more influential, because his disciples basically stage managed the foreign policy agenda of the Bush administration. They were {!#%@} too, yes, but their ideology can be seen as influential in the only real way that matters - Kristol's thought can be said to have shaped the course of history in the first decade of the 21st century - negatively, yes, but that is what real influence looks like. Actual Marxism can be seen as influential, because disciples of Marx ran half of the world for a good chunk of the 20th century.

On the contrary, you will be hard pressed to find even one dyed in the wool disciple of Habermas or Marcuse who held a major position of influence at the national level at any point.

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:04 pm

That's an argument in the way that "Their theories were stupid" and they were "a silly gang of academic losers. I don't see how they can be seen as having influence" are not arguments. Their influence, such as it was, was not on governments.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:02 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Their influence, such as it was, was not on governments.


That was my point. And my describing them as a silly gang of academic losers is meant as a contrast with their depiction by the alt right as an all powerful cabal of evil Jewish wire pullers.


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