The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:02 pm

I don't know where to place this post so here it goes: fasinating, appetite-whetting review of Mossad materials on the postwar hunt for Nazi war criminals:
The trouble was that the Nazi hunt was never truly a high priority for the Mossad’s directors. . . . Israeli prime ministers of the 1960s and ’70s — David Ben-Gurion, Levi Eshkol and Golda Meir — also showed signs of apathy as they focused on the here and now rather than the atrocities of the past. The only one truly interested in hunting Nazis was Begin, who considered himself an adamant Jewish nationalist standing up for his people. . . .

This internal Mossad study smashes a myth, rooted in public and media perceptions (think of works such as “Munich” or “The Debt” or “Eichmann in Jerusalem”), of Israeli spies as omniscient and omnipotent. After the Eichmann trial, with sensational testimony from Holocaust victims, people assumed that the Mossad would do everything in its power to trace, surveil and then capture or kill Nazis. The Mossad study honestly admits that didn’t happen. Spies did not turn over every stone and chase down every lead across the world. They had other problems.

The secret agency dropped the whole matter after one final, fruitless tracking mission in 1991, and the hunt for Nazi war criminals was over, according to the report. All in all, it yielded one war criminal (Eichmann) captured, one (Cukurs) assassinated and one (Brunner) injured. That is three out of 11 wanted men — an astonishingly low success rate for a nation that pulled off the destruction of nuclear reactors in Iraq and Syria, the Stuxnet virus that derailed Iran’s nuclear enrichment program, the assassination of Palestinian and Hezbollah terrorists, and other cloak-and-dagger successes.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby NathanC » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:25 pm

The trouble was that the Nazi hunt was never truly a high priority for the Mossad’s directors. . . . Israeli prime ministers of the 1960s and ’70s — David Ben-Gurion, Levi Eshkol and Golda Meir — also showed signs of apathy as they focused on the here and now rather than the atrocities of the past. The only one truly interested in hunting Nazis was Begin, who considered himself an adamant Jewish nationalist standing up for his people. . . .


I'd say that this undermines the popular stereotype of Jews alleged "obsession" with the Holocaust. It's part of their history, and their remembrance is no different from any other people's remembrance of past events that shaped their lives.

This internal Mossad study smashes a myth, rooted in public and media perceptions (think of works such as “Munich” or “The Debt” or “Eichmann in Jerusalem”), of Israeli spies as omniscient and omnipotent. After the Eichmann trial, with sensational testimony from Holocaust victims, people assumed that the Mossad would do everything in its power to trace, surveil and then capture or kill Nazis. The Mossad study honestly admits that didn’t happen. Spies did not turn over every stone and chase down every lead across the world. They had other problems.


I don't think this person really watched or understood "Munich". I watched it once as part of a film analysis project in my first year of College, and while I didn't have the life experience and exposure that I do now, I understood that the movie was highly critical of the Mossad and depicted them as flailing about with blind luck. Far from how this author describes what the movie was about.

Anyway, this sounds like really old news. I mentioned some time ago that I watched a movie called "The People Vs. Fritz Bauer." It naturally shows that the Frankfurt Prosecutor Fritz Bauer had a much, much larger force in Eichmann's capture and was the driving force behind it, rather than the Mossad. The Mossad chief in that movie (his name escapes me) pretty much says the bolded part word for word: Their duty is to the Living Jews of Israel, not the dead. Bettina Stagneth mentioned this in her book about Eichmann, and even Segev touched upon it in the late 80s/early 90s. This is how the real world works; "The Jews" are not more powerful and actually have limited resources, and need to focus on more immediate concerns (such as Israel's enemies) rather than past injustices, like everybody else. Too much for Right wing and Left Wing Antisemites to understand.

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:15 pm

I think a denier answer to the above would be that this then proves the Holocaust is a "hoax," after all, if it happened then the Mossad would've devoted massive resources in finding and dispensing justice to the murderers of their people.

All it really shows us is the priorities of any intelligence service. With Israel surrounded by enemies it made far more sense to deal with real threats than chasing down and dispensing justice to the random Nazis who escaped justice.

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:17 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I think a denier answer to the above would be that this then proves the Holocaust is a "hoax," after all, if it happened then the Mossad would've devoted massive resources in finding and dispensing justice to the murderers of their people.

Which contradicts their claims of a hoax. For surely the Mossad would been fabricating, tarting up, forging, forcing confessions, substituting "crisis" perps, and hoaxing up a storm.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:13 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:. For surely the Mossad would been fabricating, tarting up, forging, forcing confessions, substituting "crisis" perps, and hoaxing up a storm.


as well as attempting to assassinate Scott Smith, and stalking RalphGordon in public libraries across the Australian outback.....

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Darren Wilshak » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:41 pm

Good one, especially on Ralph "Holocaust Agnostic" Gordon, his paranoid witterings at rodoh 1 posted from public libraries still make me laugh. Tai Chi Min H the Red had some fun with him.

"Do you think I am as mad as Anders Breivik?" RG asked once.

"Precisely Ralph, no more no less..."

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:56 pm

LOL
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:31 am

Darren Wilshak wrote:Good one, especially on Ralph "Holocaust Agnostic" Gordon, his paranoid witterings at rodoh 1 posted from public libraries still make me laugh. Tai Chi Min H the Red had some fun with him.

"Do you think I am as mad as Anders Breivik?" RG asked once.

"Precisely Ralph, no more no less..."


His "I am pressed for time" rant was an absolute classic. At least Breivik could form sentences.....

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Balmoral95 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:05 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Darren Wilshak wrote:Good one, especially on Ralph "Holocaust Agnostic" Gordon, his paranoid witterings at rodoh 1 posted from public libraries still make me laugh. Tai Chi Min H the Red had some fun with him.

"Do you think I am as mad as Anders Breivik?" RG asked once.

"Precisely Ralph, no more no less..."


His "I am pressed for time" rant was an absolute classic. At least Breivik could form sentences.....


Ralph is a very formulaic thinker.... by his own admission. Had he been in charge at Wansee, the conference would have lasted until 1955.

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby NathanC » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:25 pm

Not "Jewish Conspiracy" per se, but definitely related to the subject, of claims about a postwar Allied (Particularly American) conspiracy to "fabricate" the Holocaust.

UN Security Council Resolution 138, 1960

I discovered not too long ago that while Eishenhower was president, the US voted in favor of a UN security council resolution that condemned Israel for Abducting Adolf Eichmann from Argentina. This is very significant in that Eisenhower was, in the words of another critical thinker, the Man who Liberated the Camps and laid them bare before the whole world. His famous "We know what we are fighting against" is still quoted to this day, rightly. Clearly, by the 60s, his priorities had changed. Far from "feeling sorry for the Jews", especially after he saw firsthand the atrocities against them in WW2, his new priority was in line with that of the West German Govt, of keeping the lid on Nazis like Eichmann who always had the risk of exposing his buddies in prominent positions in the West German Government.

Also relevant was Operation Ajax not long before this UN resolution, when the US and UK overthrew Mohammed Mossadegh and installed a pro western government in Iran. An interesting detail was who Eisenhower and the CIA selected to replace Mossadegh as the prime minister. That would be one Fazlollah Zahedi, who in WW2 collaborated with the Nazis and conspired with them to overthrow the British. He was jailed for this during the war, but Eisenhower, Allen Dulles, and more importantly, Churchill, had zero problem burying the hatchet and using one of their old enemies. If I'm not mistaken, the guy who headed Iran's intelligence service in the new government was also a Nazi Collaborator, one of Goebbels' students. There's quite an interesting exchange between Zahedi and Churchill here.

http://www.mohammadmossadegh.com/news/c ... ages-1953/

In summary, no. There was no postwar Jewish or Anglo American conspiracy to "fabricate" the Holocaust. And the Holocaust and its aftermath did not drive or determine American Foreign Policy. The actions of Truman and more importantly, Ike, showed exactly how much the Holocaust affected them psychologically and shaped their foreign policies - ZERO. Eisenhower and Churchill were neither controlled by nor motivated by Sympathy for the Jews or their alleged "hatred" of Germany during WW2. Much like Ben Gurion and Golda Mier, they had other things to worry about after.

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:34 pm

interesting stuff, of which I was not aware, thanks
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Balsamo » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:40 pm

NathanC:

I discovered not too long ago that while Eishenhower was president, the US voted in favor of a UN security council resolution that condemned Israel for Abducting Adolf Eichmann from Argentina. This is very significant in that Eisenhower was, in the words of another critical thinker, the Man who Liberated the Camps and laid them bare before the whole world. His famous "We know what we are fighting against" is still quoted to this day, rightly. Clearly, by the 60s, his priorities had changed. Far from "feeling sorry for the Jews", especially after he saw firsthand the atrocities against them in WW2, his new priority was in line with that of the West German Govt, of keeping the lid on Nazis like Eichmann who always had the risk of exposing his buddies in prominent positions in the West German Government.


Actually, it is the Republic of Argentina, by then a US ally, that complained for the violation of her sovereignty.
But you are right, back then, the relation between Israel and the USA were clearly not those that exist today.
It maybe forgotten today, but the first real allies of Israel - let's say, within the first years after the independence, were France and mostly Stalin's USRR. This creates a cold with the USA - for obvious reasons - that lasted a couple of years, even after that alliance effectively vanished in the early 50's, the USSR having chosen later to support Egypt.
So the USA, far from considering Israel as a reliable ally, chose to "invest" in an alliance with Iran, implying of course the removal of Mossadeq who dared nationalizing "our" oil. In fine, it will lead to the Shah's dictatorship in which the USA invested billions - a loss in 1979 that is yet not swallowed by the USA, i might add.

You are right to point out the Ike's priority on good relation with Germany, because the threat was precisely the USRR.

But then, to conclude that the USA kind of tried to protect Eichmann for not upsetting the German government is far fetched, in my opinion, or to be more precise, such conclusion is a bit like playing with cause and effects. But they were clearly not ready to allow a not yet ally Israel to do what it pleased, even when hunting Nazis...that is about it. There were way too much Nazis working for the USA in the US. and anyway, there were no reason why the tandem USA and Great Britain would have special feelings for the Jewish State at that time, especially the later.

Operation Ajax was a whole 6 years before the UN resolution, and Great Britain was involved as well, of course, as it was actually "its oil". None of them are known for selecting their "puppets" according to "moral values and humanist beliefs". Only the efficiency of the candidate and the results matter. (Operation paperclip?)
As for Zahedi, he was, as Mossadeq's minister of the Interior, essential in achieving the "coup". No more question asked. His past was of non importance, and anyway. it would have been difficult to find a prominent Iranian politician who really had supported the occupation of the British during the war... So most in the Middle East region, and not only in Iran, tended to support the Nazis, not out of Nazi convictions - although their kind of shared their hatred of the Jews, but because they were at war with Great Britain, seen as an occupier and a thief.

There was no postwar Jewish or Anglo American conspiracy to "fabricate" the Holocaust.


Of course not! :lol:
Even Israel, in those day, once the independence granted, did not want to dig further openly.

And the Holocaust and its aftermath did not drive or determine American Foreign Policy.


Clearly not.
There will be a switch of attitude though, but later.

But then, who says that except for a few lunatics?

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:51 am

Balsamo wrote:It maybe forgotten today, but the first real allies of Israel - let's say, within the first years after the independence, were France and mostly Stalin's USRR.


It is true that the Adhut H'Avoda party was Pro-Soviet, as was Mapam/Hasmomer Hatazier. However, the ruling Mapai Party was deeply ambivalent towards the USSR and the opposition Herut Party was openly hostile. Ben-Gurion initially was happy about Soviet recognition of Israel in 1948 but was too conscious about the need for American assistance to throw in either way. He initially presented Israel as a non-aligned state, but after Stalin started persecuting Jews in the late 40's he broke off completely from any facade of neutrality. Adhut H'Avoda renounced the USSR after the Salansky Trial in 1952, and Mapam followed suit after Khrushchev's 1956 speech.

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Re: The Jewish Conspiracies thread (aka "Achtung Juden*!")

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:39 pm

I find this deeply disturbing:

https://redice.tv/news/russia-launches-investigation-into-whether-nicholas-ii-and-family-were-killed-as-part-of-jewish-ritual-murder?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I follow the putz “redice” just to needle him now and again.

It’s no secret that Russia has a deep, troubling past with antisemitism. Considering what is going on in Europe now this cannot help.

The order to execute the Czar and his family came from Lenin who was not a Jew. The name of the actual killer was Yakov Yurovsky. In a rather odd development, he converted to Lutheranism so he wasn’t a religious Jew at the time of the murders.

According to two of the sources I found, the man himself expressed remorse over the killings:

http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24752

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakov_Yurovsky

It bugs the crap out me to see this, it just proves things will suck far worse before they get better.


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