Treblinka's Body Disposal

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Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Oozy_Substance » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:03 pm

Deniers seem to talk a lot about Treblinka.

I saw the following video in Denying-History's Youtube channel

The comment section is crawling with deniers.
In one comment a denier said the following :

Anyone who believes a skeleton crew can gas, cremate, dig up, re burn and rebury the population of San Francisco in one year on a five acre plot while not leaving any evidence is bat {!#%@} crazy. But, suit yourself.
In the meantime we are demonstrating what a complete fraud the holocaust really is and 'youse guys' are on the ropes.


In another link, I saw the following by a denier :

Okay, let's do the maths...
We're saying that 900000 bodies were cremated at Treblinka between July 1942 and November 1943, which is 457 days from start to finish.
This equates to 1969 bodies per day (900000 / 457 = 1969) or 82 per hour. The official narrative states that these bodies were cremated outdoors by being placed on grates with wood underneath.
So, what we've got is a mass pyre. In order to fully cremate a body, 500 - 600 KG of firewood is required so lets use 550 as the basis of the calculation. If they were cremating 1969 bodies per day, this would require 1082950 Kg of firewood, or ~1082 metric tons (1969 * 550 = 1082950). This equates to 45122 Kg, or ~45 metric tons per hour.
Are we seriously suggesting this is feasible? What kind of world do we live in where people who actually question the logic of {!#%@} like this, as opposed to just accepting what they're told (by proven liars, no less), are branded as racist and/or crazy. Why is curiosity and dissent such a crime these days? Surely, given the state of the world, we should be encouraging this?


The first denier speaks of impossibility of placing many bodies in mass graves, the other denier speaks of impossibility to build a pyre large enough. Doesn't one contradict the other? If the bodies were burn in a huge pyre, there would have been no need to bury them. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, I am pretty much a newbie about Treblinka. Can anyone provide details about the body disposal in Treblinka?

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Denying-History » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:22 pm

It's more then possible to burn people in cremation pits. Leuchter didn't even deny this but claimed it was impossible at Auschuwitz because of the water table. This claim is absurd considering that Auschwitz had a drainage but this doesn't matter much.

At Treblinka they utilized both cremation pits and later cremation grills. It's impossible for deniers to claim theses grills would not work because they were utilized at Dresden and were used to cremate a rounded up figure of 7,000 corpses.
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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:25 pm

There's a thread here that contains a long discussion of this issue. Jerf_36 might recall which one. Something about grave size and burial capacity at Treblinka ...
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:29 pm

I would recommend that you check out Alex Bay's article on this issue. It has been linked at HC. Just type "Alex Bay" into the search bar and you will find what you need.

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Oozy_Substance » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:37 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:I would recommend that you check out Alex Bay's article on this issue. It has been linked at HC. Just type "Alex Bay" into the search bar and you will find what you need.


Articles in HC redirect to this link

http://www.holocaust-history.org/Trebli ... ixd2.shtml

unfortunately it seems broken ..

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:38 pm

I think this is it
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25312
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Oozy_Substance » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:57 pm

Mechanic, maybe this thread ?

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25127

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:05 pm

That's the one! (sorry, I am on a phone today ... )
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Oozy_Substance » Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:14 pm

Denying-History wrote: It's impossible for deniers to claim theses grills would not work because they were utilized at Dresden and were used to cremate a rounded up figure of 7,000 corpses.


Can you please provide more details about that?

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:25 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Denying-History wrote: It's impossible for deniers to claim theses grills would not work because they were utilized at Dresden and were used to cremate a rounded up figure of 7,000 corpses.


Can you please provide more details about that?


Go to HDOT, Lipstadt's website and type in Altmark cremation in the search engine.
Sorry, the WiFi I'm on is running slow or I would link you.

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Denying-History » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:15 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Denying-History wrote: It's impossible for deniers to claim theses grills would not work because they were utilized at Dresden and were used to cremate a rounded up figure of 7,000 corpses.


Can you please provide more details about that?


http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/cremation/dresden.shtml

I also have about 4 color photos of these grills. The more famous photograph in color is this one published by Irving.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Dresden/StarsandStripes050545.html
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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:51 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Oozy_Substance wrote:
Denying-History wrote: It's impossible for deniers to claim theses grills would not work because they were utilized at Dresden and were used to cremate a rounded up figure of 7,000 corpses.


Can you please provide more details about that?


http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/cremation/dresden.shtml

I also have about 4 color photos of these grills. The more famous photograph in color is this one published by Irving.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Dresden/StarsandStripes050545.html


It's interesting that the Stars and Stripes article says 300,000 dead in Dresden.

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Xcalibur » Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:35 am


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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:42 am

See Nessie is still going strong.

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Denying-History » Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:14 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Oozy_Substance wrote:
Denying-History wrote: It's impossible for deniers to claim theses grills would not work because they were utilized at Dresden and were used to cremate a rounded up figure of 7,000 corpses.


Can you please provide more details about that?


http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/cremation/dresden.shtml

I also have about 4 color photos of these grills. The more famous photograph in color is this one published by Irving.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Dresden/StarsandStripes050545.html


It's interesting that the Stars and Stripes article says 300,000 dead in Dresden.
Its just Irving picking his sources. If this figure is correct though then Zundel's 300,000 cremated bodies figure may be correct. If this figure is correct it means the cremation grill method may possibly be more effective then the auschwitz crematoria.
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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Oozy_Substance » Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:25 am

Oozy_Substance wrote:The first denier speaks of impossibility of placing many bodies in mass graves, the other denier speaks of impossibility to build a pyre large enough. Doesn't one contradict the other? If the bodies were burn in a huge pyre, there would have been no need to bury them. Correct me if I'm wrong.


I am asking it again because I am not sure I got the answer.
If bodies in Treblinka were burned in a pyre, or grill, doesn't it mean that they were reduced to ashes and only then got buried?
So when we speak of mass graves in Treblinka, do we talk about graves with complete bodies or do we talk about graves with ashes and partly-reduced bodies?
Also, do we talk about one mass graves or on several mass graves? I know that Dr. Caroline Sturdy Colls found several mass graves but I got the gist that when deniers speak of mass burial in Treblinka it's about one large pit. So what is the answer? Is it one mass grave, or several?

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Xcalibur » Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:28 am

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Oozy_Substance wrote:The first denier speaks of impossibility of placing many bodies in mass graves, the other denier speaks of impossibility to build a pyre large enough. Doesn't one contradict the other? If the bodies were burn in a huge pyre, there would have been no need to bury them. Correct me if I'm wrong.


I am asking it again because I am not sure I got the answer.
If bodies in Treblinka were burned in a pyre, or grill, doesn't it mean that they were reduced to ashes and only then got buried?
So when we speak of mass graves in Treblinka, do we talk about graves with complete bodies or do we talk about graves with ashes and partly-reduced bodies?
Also, do we talk about one mass graves or on several mass graves? I know that Dr. Caroline Sturdy Colls found several mass graves but I got the gist that when deniers speak of mass burial in Treblinka it's about one large pit. So what is the answer? Is it one mass grave, or several?


I'll be back tomorrow to discuss... Your question is valid and rational.

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Denying-History » Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:13 am

Oozy_Substance wrote:If bodies in Treblinka were burned in a pyre, or grill, doesn't it mean that they were reduced to ashes and only then got buried?
Pyre/Grill, its pretty much the same thing to a greater or lesser extent. They would generally reduce the bodies to ash, small charred remains, and bones. Charred remains and bones that survived would have been generally smashed, though a large number of bones were discovered intact by the soviets, which showed signs of burning. Not all the corpses were cremated though, but quite generally to my own understanding the majority of the bodies had been cremated.

During the investigation when the ground was [leveled], no collective graves were found, and this together with the evidence given by the witnesses leads to the conclusion that almost all the remains were burnt; the German authorities having had plenty of time to do it since the camp was closed. [...]

https://www.phdn.org/archives/www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/gcpoltreb1.htm

Oozy_Substance wrote:So when we speak of mass graves in Treblinka, do we talk about graves with complete bodies or do we talk about graves with ashes and partly-reduced bodies?
When we talk about mass graves, we take about preexisting graves which held bodies. As for in the aftermath we speak about a plot of land which was mixed with the remains of human ash, bone, and charred remains.

[…] Essentially, yes, and also if you imagine that what the Germans were doing was mixing the ashes of the victims with the very sandy geology in this area and then putting it back into the earlier graves, then obviously that kind of combination of burned soil, burned sand, ashes, all together, is not a very nice environment for plants to grow, and nothing has reestablished itself since the war.

https://youtu.be/Kje58NBOqw8?t=1028

Oozy_Substance wrote:Also, do we talk about one mass graves or on several mass graves?
Depends on the camp. Belzec had 33 mass graves, Sobibor had 7, and Treblinka has yet to be determined but I believe that is was Caroline who found about 7 possible graves sites which could have contained around 260,000 bodies.

Oozy_Substance wrote:I know that Dr. Caroline Sturdy Colls found several mass graves but I got the gist that when deniers speak of mass burial in Treblinka it's about one large pit. So what is the answer? Is it one mass grave, or several?
I don't believe that Colls identified them all to the public, though she did identify one grave that was 26 meters by 17 meters. If deniers are claiming she found one single large pit, then they are making this up on the spot. She actually says the following in her interview with the BBC:

[...] I’ve identified a number of buried pits using geophysical techniques. These are considerable. One in particular is 26 meters by 17 meters. [...]

https://youtu.be/Kje58NBOqw8?t=1389
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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:15 am

10.7 bodies per cubic meter has been proven to be totally realistic. That would allow well over 900,000 to have been buried in the TII extermination area.

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Xcalibur » Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:34 am

Jeff_36 wrote:10.7 bodies per cubic meter has been proven to be totally realistic. That would allow well over 900,000 to have been buried in the TII extermination area.


And that's the misunderstanding/denier sandbagging premise of body disposal at Treblinka. I can't say this succinctly or LOUDLY enough: No one ever said 700k +/- cadavers were buried on the camp property at one time. There never has been a reason to calculate how so many full cadavers could fit into that space. Let's start there and move on.

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:03 am

Xcalibur wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:10.7 bodies per cubic meter has been proven to be totally realistic. That would allow well over 900,000 to have been buried in the TII extermination area.


And that's the misunderstanding/denier sandbagging premise of body disposal at Treblinka. I can't say this succinctly or LOUDLY enough: No one ever said 700k +/- cadavers were buried on the camp property at one time. There never has been a reason to calculate how so many full cadavers could fit into that space. Let's start there and move on.


the best term is staggering. The bodies were staggered at different times and left open to the element in the various interim periods.

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:30 am

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Oozy_Substance wrote:The first denier speaks of impossibility of placing many bodies in mass graves, the other denier speaks of impossibility to build a pyre large enough. Doesn't one contradict the other? If the bodies were burn in a huge pyre, there would have been no need to bury them. Correct me if I'm wrong.


I am asking it again because I am not sure I got the answer.
If bodies in Treblinka were burned in a pyre, or grill, doesn't it mean that they were reduced to ashes and only then got buried?
So when we speak of mass graves in Treblinka, do we talk about graves with complete bodies or do we talk about graves with ashes and partly-reduced bodies?
Also, do we talk about one mass graves or on several mass graves? I know that Dr. Caroline Sturdy Colls found several mass graves but I got the gist that when deniers speak of mass burial in Treblinka it's about one large pit. So what is the answer? Is it one mass grave, or several?


It's several.

Here is a map:

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/maps.html



"Massengraber" is German for "mass grave." There are five on that map.

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:40 am

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Oozy_Substance wrote:The first denier speaks of impossibility of placing many bodies in mass graves, the other denier speaks of impossibility to build a pyre large enough. Doesn't one contradict the other? If the bodies were burn in a huge pyre, there would have been no need to bury them. Correct me if I'm wrong.


I am asking it again because I am not sure I got the answer.
If bodies in Treblinka were burned in a pyre, or grill, doesn't it mean that they were reduced to ashes and only then got buried?
So when we speak of mass graves in Treblinka, do we talk about graves with complete bodies or do we talk about graves with ashes and partly-reduced bodies?
Also, do we talk about one mass graves or on several mass graves? I know that Dr. Caroline Sturdy Colls found several mass graves but I got the gist that when deniers speak of mass burial in Treblinka it's about one large pit. So what is the answer? Is it one mass grave, or several?


As far as bodies, that's a common denier misdirect. How can there be 900,000 bodies buried at Treblinka?

The reality is that the bodies were cremated enough that only ash and some remains were left. When the Poles investigated the site after the war the found almost five acres of ash and body parts. The SS dumped the ash and body parts back into the graves but those were dug up by Poles looking for "Jew gold."

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:46 am

In the thread I referred to earlier we figured a maximum number of corpses that would have been buried at one time - based on early corpse burning and when Floss's operation (disinterment and cremation) began. As X and others have said, it is not correct to think that graves for all those killed were needed. IIRC someone calculated a lower number than we did - 700,000 I think. That said, based on Roberto's calculations, deniers overestimate the space needed.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Oozy_Substance » Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:02 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
It's several.

Here is a map:

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/maps.html



"Massengraber" is German for "mass grave." There are five on that map.


Can we tell if there is correspondence between this map and what Dr. Colls found?

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:46 pm

for reference, the Sturdy Colls map with which I am familiar (I am not up to date on CSC's work beyond this):

Image
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Denying-History » Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:09 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
It's several.

Here is a map:

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/maps.html



"Massengraber" is German for "mass grave." There are five on that map.


Can we tell if there is correspondence between this map and what Dr. Colls found?
With all maps of Treblinka they generally all put off the same general design. Though most maps are drawn as rectangles which is not how Treblinka looked. The importance is general principle.

Working off most survivor maps then yes it is coroberated. Unless you get nitpicky like the dishonest Eric Hunt then apparently the maps all being slightly destinct some how disproves Treblinka... I'm not exactly sure how he views these maps with the idea that apparently minor differences some how disproves Treblinka considering most were drawn in the 60's and 80's.

On general principle you will see a number of mass graves in the extermination section. One behind a fenced in area near the baggage with a small shack near it. And maybe 1 to 3 graves located near the railway.

When looking at Caroline's drawings of the graves we notice the possibility that some are cut off from their actual shape due to wooded areas or the memorials, we notice a few near the marked area as the railway, though based on the survivor maps that I have seen the Lazarett does not appear to be on Caroline's map. It's possible that it's still hidden further south in the wooded area.
Last edited by Denying-History on Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:37 pm

CSC seems not to have completed the work and presented it to deal with the kinds of issues D-H points out.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:01 pm



Here is a map from Colls, from BBC:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-16657363

1943 (same, BBC)



1944: http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/maps.html



Just to give you some perspective of camp size, the camp itself was larger than the area the memorial currently covers.

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Denying-History » Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:21 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:CSC seems not to have completed the work and presented it to deal with the kinds of issues D-H points out.
I think it's quite possible that she finished the work, but honestly I believe she got lazy and never released everything to the public. One of her to recent works from 2015 filled us in with a few details, but it honestly never provided everything that an anti-rev would need for Treblinka. Currently the best we have is the Soviet's commissions findings for Treblinka 2, the grave robbers at Treblinka 2, and Colls released findings at the Treblinka 1 execution site. Other then that we don't have much else other then Hunts petty commentary and the released GPR report from Krege which quite possibly actually proves that graves existed.

http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/education/conference/2006/3.pdf
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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:07 pm

I don't think she completed the work, I should say that I know she hasn't for three reasons: 1) the work she promised to do on her website hasn't been done, 2) she had a grant to continue the work from the USHMM last year (see link above - "In September 2016, Dr Sturdy Colls will be the Fred and Maria Devinki Memorial Fellow, at the Jack, Joseph and Morton Mandel Center for Advanced Holocaust Studies, United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. During this fellowship, she will undertake research for a monograph focused on her work at Treblinka extermination and labour camps to date." ), and 3) part of completing it is producing it in presentation form (papers, book, etc). She seems to have broadened her focus to include other sites and to focus on some methodological issues in the past few years.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:32 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:I would recommend that you check out Alex Bay's article on this issue. It has been linked at HC. Just type "Alex Bay" into the search bar and you will find what you need.


Articles in HC redirect to this link

http://www.holocaust-history.org/Trebli ... ixd2.shtml

unfortunately it seems broken ..


A small tip with broken links at holocaust-history.org:

Replace the 3 'w' and the dot with this, and you're done, the link is alive and kickin' again!

http://www.phdn.org/archives/

For example your link turns to

http://www.phdn.org/archives/holocaust- ... ixd2.shtml

and it's OK!
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:37 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I don't think she completed the work, I should say that I know she hasn't for three reasons: 1) the work she promised to do on her website hasn't been done, 2) she had a grant to continue the work from the USHMM last year (see link above - "In September 2016, Dr Sturdy Colls will be the Fred and Maria Devinki Memorial Fellow, at the Jack, Joseph and Morton Mandel Center for Advanced Holocaust Studies, United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. During this fellowship, she will undertake research for a monograph focused on her work at Treblinka extermination and labour camps to date." ), and 3) part of completing it is producing it in presentation form (papers, book, etc). She seems to have broadened her focus to include other sites and to focus on some methodological issues in the past few years.


I wish she would finish, I'm interested in her findings.

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:38 pm

The reason I think it's important to us to understand CSC project scope, intention and progress is that by positing different scope, intention and progress deniers keep pretending that CSC is done and failed. That's not the case: her goals differ to theirs - and maybe to ours, too. Her scope is Holocaust landscapes and multiple sites, not simply a deep dive into Treblinka; her goals include proving out new methods and technologies; and her progress is slow. OTOH she is a bit of a grant getting machine.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:16 pm

Nothing wrong with any of that. I understand her goals are different than ours but this started with her original investigation of Treblinka. I understand I'm a bit selfish in this regard, I want to see what she found and I think Treblinka needs this extensive investigation. Not to to shut up deniers but in regards to the history of the camp itself, this is why I want her to finish and release her findings.

But, it's up to her to complete her work in whatever way she sees fit.

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:43 pm

OTOH she's trying to have a successful career - and seems to be doing so. Also, scientific work doesn't happen fast. It is often takes many years for research to be completed and published. My son worked with a colleague on a paper for 5 years, which the colleague had worked on for 6-7 years prior to including my son on it. When it was published, it was very successful, but if had been published 8 years earlier, it would have been a disaster.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:55 pm

Re pyres, I recalled this from "Mattogno and Father Patrick Desbois (4)" by Roberto Muehlenkamp:

...Wells starts describing the progress that his unit has made in managing to burn more bodies at a faster pace[109]:
"At first, we had been capable only of building heaps of five hundred bodies. After a while we managed to pile up heaps of seven hundred and fifty, and now, really experienced, we can stack up heaps of two thousand and more. The carriers ascend to the top of these heaps on ladders with their bodies.
To light the fire, we pour gasoline all over the top and on the sides of the pyramid. Afterward we make a torch and ignite the fire. There is an explosion as the fire catches and the sky darkens from the smoke.
The length of time required to burn the bodies depends on whether the bodies are clothed or naked, fresh or putrid. Clothed bodies burn more slowly, as do those in an advanced state of decay. The difference in time of burning between fresh and putrid bodies is a matter of one day. Children and women burn faster. But success in our work depends on how much experience we have. In the beginning it took us one week, using much oil to burn the same sized pyre that took only two days using one quarter the amount of oil later on. It's a matter of "knowhow."
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... s-4_4.html


There's a footnote questioning the claim of clothed bodies burning slower. My thought about that is, it might actually be that a packed pile of/with clothed bodies prevents the fabrics to burn faster by preventing the necessary airflow (as seen by...um... "adventurous individuals" trying to burn a cigarette through a bill pressed against a body part, most often an arm. The flesh underneath will burn, the paper bill will not.)
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:19 pm

I agree, I think unclothed bodies would burn faster. I think clothing would have a dampening effect on the flames, especially heavy winter clothing like that shown on the Altmark photos.
But, I could be completely wrong and completely full of it.

:D

Wouldn't be the first time...

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:22 pm

I have some ideas for people we could try it on.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Treblinka's Body Disposal

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:25 pm

:lol:


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