Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

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Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Oozy_Substance » Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:14 am

From my personal experience, deniers like to talk much about soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads when discussing the Holocaust. They speak as if these topics is what the Holocaust revolves around, yet we know these topics are significantly minor among all the details of the Holocaust's history - personally I never even heard of shrunken heads before I came across Holocaust-Denial online.

I know that Yad Vashem declared the "human soap" a myth, and if I'm not wrong, the accusations against Ilse Koch of holding human lampshades are also false. Yet I do remember Nizkor writing something about that such lampshades did exist, and they provide a forensic report.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-o ... ch-01.html

It's exceedingly well-documented that such ornaments did exist; there's no question but that someone made them out of human skin. When one can see a book whose cover is tanned skin with a decorative tattoo on it, there's little question that the skin was that of a human being. If one has any doubt as to the origin of the substance, one should examine the forensic report conducted on some of the skin. It concludes, based on microscopic examination and the placement of the nipples and navel, that the skin was certainly human.


As for the soap, Nizkor also mentions some minor experimental amount of human soap was produced.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar01.html

"No human soap"? This is true, but misleading. Though there is some evidence that soap was made from corpses on a very limited experimental scale, the rumored "mass production" was never done, and no soap made from human corpses is known to exist. However, there is sworn testimony, never refuted, from British POWs and a German army official, stating that soap experiments were performed, and the recipe for the soap was captured by the Allies. To state flatly that the Nazis did not make soap from human beings is incorrect.


As for shrunken heads, my knowledge about it is pretty minimal, I only know these pictures.
Buchenwald-Lampshade-ShrunkenHeads.jpg

Nazi-Shrunken-Heads.jpg


Anyway, can we have a full cover of these three topics? What is true? What is false? What are the full details of each of which?

Thanks
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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:57 am

The Nizkor quote does not counter the mainstream conception, which always was "there was no MASS PRODUCTION Jewsoap", like deniers claim that we claim. It was always either "it didn't happen at all" or "even if it did happened it was on a inchy punchy smallassous tiny scale". Bauer, Guttman even Lipstadt IIRC all said that.
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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Denying-History » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:28 pm

Nizkor, just as everyone to my understanding accepts human soap being made at the Danzig institute, Stutthof, and Jasenovac. Modern DNA tests established that some soap was made from human fat.

http://auschwitz.org/en/museum/news/human-fat-was-used-to-produce-soap-in-gdansk-during-the-war,55.html

General Luis D. Clay stated the Human Skin Lamp to actually be made of goat skin, though to my knowledge some posters of the old alt.revisionist group would dissagree with this.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/clay-koch-03.html

I don't have the story behind the shrunken heads though. It's a minor detail though and does not debunk the holocaust nore does it disprove gassings.

Other then that the allies found some organs and preserver on site and it's possible this was part of Koch's work. She's mostly known for making art on human skin. These are the two things which we're truth or possibly true.
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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:37 pm

A guy named Mark Jacobson did a scurrilous, journalistic book on lampshades, in collaboration with National Geographic. Back in Rodoh666, Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote, "If the question is whether I accept as a fact that human skin lampshades existed at Buchenwald concentration camp, the answer is no." He added, "I've never understood why it's supposed to be of any importance to the historical record of the Holocaust whether or not there were lampshades made of human skin at Buchenwald, by the way. It's not even a tangential issue, IMHO." On the other hand, in this thread, however, Black Rabbit of Inlé, an erstwhile denier, has an interesting post on this subject.

The shrunken heads were said to be of Polish political prisoners, at Buchenwald (from US Army Report presented at the IMT: "two young Poles who had been hanged for having relations with German girls"), unrelated to the extermination of the Jews. We had a brief discussion of these heads - a former (now banned) member asked if anyone denied they were used as evidence for the Holocaust - in this thread 5 years ago. Non-deniers viewed the shrunken head displayed on the table as evidence, in Nessie's immortal words, that shrunken heads were found at Buchenwald.

Joachim Neander (again) has made it a many years' project to understand the soap legend:

"IPN and Spanner's soap: a critical perspective"

"The Danzig Soap Case: Facts and Legends around "Professor Spanner" and the Danzig Anatomic Institute 1944-1945"
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:38 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:From my personal experience, deniers like to talk much about soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads when discussing the Holocaust. They speak as if these topics is what the Holocaust revolves around, yet we know these topics are significantly minor among all the details of the Holocaust's history - personally I never even heard of shrunken heads before I came across Holocaust-Denial online.

I know that Yad Vashem declared the "human soap" a myth, and if I'm not wrong, the accusations against Ilse Koch of holding human lampshades are also false. Yet I do remember Nizkor writing something about that such lampshades did exist, and they provide a forensic report.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-o ... ch-01.html

It's exceedingly well-documented that such ornaments did exist; there's no question but that someone made them out of human skin. When one can see a book whose cover is tanned skin with a decorative tattoo on it, there's little question that the skin was that of a human being. If one has any doubt as to the origin of the substance, one should examine the forensic report conducted on some of the skin. It concludes, based on microscopic examination and the placement of the nipples and navel, that the skin was certainly human.


As for the soap, Nizkor also mentions some minor experimental amount of human soap was produced.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar01.html

"No human soap"? This is true, but misleading. Though there is some evidence that soap was made from corpses on a very limited experimental scale, the rumored "mass production" was never done, and no soap made from human corpses is known to exist. However, there is sworn testimony, never refuted, from British POWs and a German army official, stating that soap experiments were performed, and the recipe for the soap was captured by the Allies. To state flatly that the Nazis did not make soap from human beings is incorrect.


As for shrunken heads, my knowledge about it is pretty minimal, I only know these pictures.
Buchenwald-Lampshade-ShrunkenHeads.jpg
Nazi-Shrunken-Heads.jpg

Anyway, can we have a full cover of these three topics? What is true? What is false? What are the full details of each of which?

Thanks


I always say that shrunken heads and skin lampshades, even if true, are only evidence of sadism, not genocide. Soap production was done on a small scale, experimental basis that rumor blew out of proportion.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Oozy_Substance » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:30 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:A guy named Mark Jacobson did a scurrilous, journalistic book on lampshades, in collaboration with National Geographic. Back in Rodoh666, Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote, "If the question is whether I accept as a fact that human skin lampshades existed at Buchenwald concentration camp, the answer is no." He added, "I've never understood why it's supposed to be of any importance to the historical record of the Holocaust whether or not there were lampshades made of human skin at Buchenwald, by the way. It's not even a tangential issue, IMHO." On the other hand, in this thread, however, Black Rabbit of Inlé, an erstwhile denier, has an interesting post on this subject.

The shrunken heads were said to be of Polish political prisoners, at Buchenwald (from US Army Report presented at the IMT: "two young Poles who had been hanged for having relations with German girls"), unrelated to the extermination of the Jews. We had a brief discussion of these heads - a former (now banned) member asked if anyone denied they were used as evidence for the Holocaust - in this thread 5 years ago. Non-deniers viewed the shrunken head displayed on the table as evidence, in Nessie's immortal words, that shrunken heads were found at Buchenwald.

Joachim Neander (again) has made it a many years' project to understand the soap legend:

"IPN and Spanner's soap: a critical perspective"

"The Danzig Soap Case: Facts and Legends around "Professor Spanner" and the Danzig Anatomic Institute 1944-1945"


Allow me to go off-topic for a second, can you tell me about the black rabbit? What made him to change his mind? Also, isn't he the guy from here ?

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... amous.html

Also, in the link to the thread from 5 years ago you posted, I see a user named Lemmy Caution. A user with such name also posts in the Holocaust Denial thread in International Skeptics Forum, he's really good. Is he still posting here?

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:45 pm

LOL thanks for the unintended compliment, I'm Lemmy Caution.

BROI - yes, that guy. Here is a link to where he explained his change of mind on some key issues. There were, around the same time, some other threads in which BROI explained further and went into other issues. He posted here for a bit but drifted off . . .

Full disclosure: BROI and I have bad blood, although we've made some sort of accommodation I'd say, based on lots of history that goes back to RODOH and which I won't share except for . . .

. . . one issue that involves a video BROI made defending Hunt's Majdanek stuff*, which video BROI now agrees is not correct in its framing and details but which he keeps posted on YouTube. The issues raised by the video are dealt with in nauseating detail in the Majdanek thread - but most directly these posts: reply to BROI's movie, update on the five questions asked David (and BROI), on the entry route to the bathhouses and selections at Majdanek, on the showering/disinfection process in the bathhouses, and additional testimonies on arrival and selections. IIRC BROI's differences with me on Majdanek now boil down to selections on arrival, as he accepts that gassings took place and rejects Hunt's "northern entry" claim - but his extremely misleading video remains online. That said, the final 100s of posts in the Majdanek thread, after BROI joined in, were civil and helped clarify a number of issues.

(BROI made a single correction to the video, fixing the gaffe with the canopy - you can see this in the version posted - but the framing, defense of Hunt, and other problems remain.)

------------
* I hate giving this play but not many people have watched it, so here is BROI's YouTube thing on Majdanek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaoCQz90FcU
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Oozy_Substance » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:00 pm

Wow, very nice.
You make deniers' lives not easy :lol:

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:04 pm

Ian Hazard thinks I'm a cowardly hypocrite! LOL

(thanks, Oozy)
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Denying-History » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:08 pm

Ian's a {!#%@} idiot... His fixated return to complain about a man who had been dead for months Tattoo is evidence of this.
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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:13 pm

No kidding. Ian is more than welcome to join in on a topic or start one of interest . . . :)
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:14 pm

Denying-History wrote:Ian's a {!#%@} idiot... His fixated return to complain about a man who had been dead for months Tattoo is evidence of this.


He also wanted to whine about me calling him a troll.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Oozy_Substance » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:18 pm

Who's Ian Hazard?

Denying-History wrote:Ian's a {!#%@} idiot... His fixated return to complain about a man who had been dead for months Tattoo is evidence of this.


Is that about Elie Wiesel tattoo? I saw the website that claims that he actually has no tattoo on his arm. Is there any insights about this subject?

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:20 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:Who's Ian Hazard?

Denying-History wrote:Ian's a {!#%@} idiot... His fixated return to complain about a man who had been dead for months Tattoo is evidence of this.


Is that about Elie Wiesel tattoo? I saw the website that claims that he actually has no tattoo on his arm. Is there any insights about this subject?



Ian is an alt right troll that pops up now and again, calls everyone a Jew, posts stupid things showing his love for the Trump, accuses everyone of picking on him and then vanishes into thin air.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:22 pm

There's an active thread on Wiesel's tattoo. It should be near the top on the main page.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Oozy_Substance » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:23 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:There's an active thread on Wiesel's tattoo. It should be near the top on the main page.


Oh. Saw it now. Thanks.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:24 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:Who's Ian Hazard?



Eden and Thorgen's retarted cousin.

#Jokes_that_you_yanks_wont_understand
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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Denying-History » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:26 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:Who's Ian Hazard?

Denying-History wrote:Ian's a {!#%@} idiot... His fixated return to complain about a man who had been dead for months Tattoo is evidence of this.


Is that about Elie Wiesel tattoo? I saw the website that claims that he actually has no tattoo on his arm. Is there any insights about this subject?
just read my latest post in the thread on Elie. You will see why the claim is BS:
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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Oozy_Substance » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:37 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Oozy_Substance wrote:Who's Ian Hazard?

Denying-History wrote:Ian's a {!#%@} idiot... His fixated return to complain about a man who had been dead for months Tattoo is evidence of this.


Is that about Elie Wiesel tattoo? I saw the website that claims that he actually has no tattoo on his arm. Is there any insights about this subject?
just read my latest post in the thread on Elie. You will see why the claim is BS:


I see.
Deniers truly have no shame.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:58 pm

The soap thing always reminds me of what Toivi Blatt said when the Germans captured him and sent him to Sobibor. The Pole that turned him told him that the next time he saw him would be in a soap store, meaning that rumor was very widespread.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Denying-History » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:03 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Oozy_Substance wrote:Who's Ian Hazard?

Denying-History wrote:Ian's a {!#%@} idiot... His fixated return to complain about a man who had been dead for months Tattoo is evidence of this.


Is that about Elie Wiesel tattoo? I saw the website that claims that he actually has no tattoo on his arm. Is there any insights about this subject?
just read my latest post in the thread on Elie. You will see why the claim is BS:


I see.
Deniers truly have no shame.
No they don't, and they make up {!#%@} as well. Ian started of sort of honest by saying I implied it. I wasn't trying to but I see where he was coming from. He then does a 180 degree turn and then says I directly claimed to know the camera model and was omitting it from as though it was some huge secret. I do have a clearer image of the one that I provide from Miklos's documentary. It's pretty much the same story though, it's a shitty camera recording skin with a high concentration of sunlight on it. You wouldn't be expected to see it considering how faded his tatto is.
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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:08 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Ian Hazard thinks I'm a cowardly hypocrite! LOL

(thanks, Oozy)


If it means anything, I think Ian is a pathetic troll who has blinders on vis a vis the Nazi Chip Crew at RODOH.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:19 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:The soap thing always reminds me of what Toivi Blatt said when the Germans captured him and sent him to Sobibor. The Pole that turned him told him that the next time he saw him would be in a soap store, meaning that rumor was very widespread.

I really do recommend Joachim's articles on this.

If you read in sources, you will find indeed that "Jewish soap" was an antisemitic taunt during the war.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:21 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Ian Hazard thinks I'm a cowardly hypocrite! LOL

(thanks, Oozy)


If it means anything, I think Ian is a pathetic troll who has blinders on vis a vis the Nazi Chip Crew at RODOH.

I don't take anything Ian says seriously. He makes me laugh when he posts here - he gets so worked up over basically nothing.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:23 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Ian Hazard thinks I'm a cowardly hypocrite! LOL

(thanks, Oozy)


If it means anything, I think Ian is a pathetic troll who has blinders on vis a vis the Nazi Chip Crew at RODOH.

I don't take anything Ian says seriously. He makes me laugh when he posts here - he gets so worked up over basically nothing.


His style is a lot like Traynor. Less homicidal and not quite as much accidental self parody, but still the same overstuffed White Supremacist BS mixed in with pompous posturing.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:25 pm

GMTA I have had the same thought: pompous and empty.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:26 pm

Speaking about Jewsoap, I always find it funny how alt-right memelords think they're so edgy and intentionally trolly to Jews with their soap Jokes, when we here in Israel make Jokes about it all the time, probably more than they do.
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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:30 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:The soap thing always reminds me of what Toivi Blatt said when the Germans captured him and sent him to Sobibor. The Pole that turned him told him that the next time he saw him would be in a soap store, meaning that rumor was very widespread.

I really do recommend Joachim's articles on this.

If you read in sources, you will find indeed that "Jewish soap" was an antisemitic taunt during the war.



I've read them but it's been a bit. I looked into the whole "soap issue" to see what evidence existed for or against it a couple of years ago. I wonder how much deniers themselves actually look into it or if they just continue to parrot the IMT/soap thing because it's a convenient talking point.

I always liked Mr. Blatt (though of course I never met him). He always seemed like such a likeable man in the interviews I saw.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:32 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:Speaking about Jewsoap, I always find it funny how alt-right memelords think they're so edgy and intentionally trolly to Jews with their soap Jokes, when we here in Israel make Jokes about it all the time, probably more than they do.


That's funny. Like I said, I doubt any of them have ever actually looked into it to see the evidence for or against it.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:55 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:The soap thing always reminds me of what Toivi Blatt said when the Germans captured him and sent him to Sobibor. The Pole that turned him told him that the next time he saw him would be in a soap store, meaning that rumor was very widespread.

And then there was this, and I think some survivor(s?) once said they were told by guards that the false description in fact, was fact...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_made ... an_corpses wrote:The "human soap" rumours may have originated from the bars of soap being marked with the initials RIF, which was interpreted by some as Reichs-Juden-Fett ("State Jewish Fat"); in German Blackletter font the difference between I and J is only in length. RIF in fact stood for Reichsstelle für industrielle Fettversorgung ("National Center for Industrial Fat Provisioning", the German government agency responsible for wartime production and distribution of soap and washing products).
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Balsamo » Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:57 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:The soap thing always reminds me of what Toivi Blatt said when the Germans captured him and sent him to Sobibor. The Pole that turned him told him that the next time he saw him would be in a soap store, meaning that rumor was very widespread.

And then there was this, and I think some survivor(s?) once said they were told by guards that the false description in fact, was fact...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_made ... an_corpses wrote:The "human soap" rumours may have originated from the bars of soap being marked with the initials RIF, which was interpreted by some as Reichs-Juden-Fett ("State Jewish Fat"); in German Blackletter font the difference between I and J is only in length. RIF in fact stood for Reichsstelle für industrielle Fettversorgung ("National Center for Industrial Fat Provisioning", the German government agency responsible for wartime production and distribution of soap and washing products).


Hum... If you copy past this from wiki, one should correct it.
RIF used to interpreted as REIN Juden Fett, which means Pure Jewish Fat... ReichS is not common on itself... So it would have been Reichsjuden Fett, or RF. Wonder who were those "Some" who came with that? ;)

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Hans » Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:32 am

The production of souvenirs from human corpses such as shrunken heads is supported by the following letter from the SS garrison doctor to the head of the pathology in concentration camp Buchenwald of 7 May 1942, which says that the production of such items has to cease immediately (which would not be necessary to order if they were not made in the first place):

Schnabel,MachtohneMoral,p361.jpg


(Schnabel, Macht ohne Moral, p. 361)
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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Oozy_Substance » Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:52 am

Thanks, Hans.
Is there an available translation for this letter?

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:54 pm

discussion of this order at AHF

btw in his recent book KL, an authority on the concentration camps, Nicholas Wachsmann, uses the shrunken heads and tattooed skin produced by Camp SS at Buchenwald as an example of abusive behavior within the camp system
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Oozy_Substance » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:36 pm

So I looked at some video about Treblinka in Denying-History's Youtube channel. A lot of deniers comment there. I saw this comment by a denier :

HC is a hate blog site. Everyone on both sides acknowledge that fact. Interested readers can delve further should they chose to do so. A quick Google on Hate bloggers should be sufficient.
These guys are mental cases especially Muehlenkamp and that teeny weenie Mathis who is proud to be a Pharisee. Nick Terry is known as the Fat Pig of Exeter.
Nobody from either side of the aisle wants anything to do with them. However, if you chose to trust them - be my guest.
I'm sorry but "marked on the map" is like 'X marks the spot of the treasure' and in this day and age carries no weight in forensic matters.
The fact is Colls knows her reputation is on the line. She fears peer review and will do nothing but
bloviate.
Anyone who believes a skeleton crew can gas, cremate, dig up, re burn and rebury the population of San Francisco in one year on a five acre plot while not leaving any evidence is bat {!#%@} crazy. But, suit yourself.
In the meantime we are demonstrating what a complete fraud the holocaust really is and 'youse guys' are on the ropes.
You have lost the battle at Treblinka, Auschwitz and Dachau. Shower heads, shrunken heads and soap have been lost for decades.
People are realizing they have been lied to and are pissed. The whole world is pissed at the Zio-Nazis and their barbarism.
Like I've said before even Henry Kissinger states that any people persecuted for 2,000 years must be doing something wrong. Happy New Year.


This comment gave me an inspiration to open a thread about Treblinka. I may open one tonight.
Regardless, I wish to focus on this section of the comment :

You have lost the battle at Treblinka, Auschwitz and Dachau. Shower heads, shrunken heads and soap have been lost for decades.


This is pretty annoying, isn't it?
Using these "problematic" topics such as shrunken heads and soaps, which were either insignificant or incorrect in the historical context and correspondly were not recognized by historians, to disprove the "serious" topics such as the death camps.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:52 am

Very useful HC blog entry from Sergey Romanov, were any deniers still about, and, in the absence of deniers, very interesting piece on "Nazi shrunken heads, human skin lampshades, human soap, textiles from human hair? Sorting out the truth from the legends." I strongly recommend this piece, it brings together the various pieces of evidence and explains what Sergey concludes in each case and why.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Balmoral95 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:43 am

Smith, Bedwetter, Fish care to reply? Thought not, so Berg? MMM, no...

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby BRoI » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:12 am

re. the lampshade and shrunken heads...

Short refutation:

The SS doctor who supposedly instigated the shrinking of heads and crafting human-skin lampshades etc. wasn't prosecuted due to a lack of evidence:

Criminal Proceedings Dropped Against Physician of Buchenwald Camp
August 13, 1959
STUTTGART (Aug. 12)


Criminal proceedings will be dropped for lack of evidence against Dr. Hans Muller, who has been accused of having experimented with tattooing skins of Jews while he was head of the “pathological section” of the Buchenwald concentration camp.

Dr. Muller turned himself over to the Stuttgart District Court almost a year ago, asking that the criminal charges against him be investigated. He insisted that his work as a pathologist at Buchenwald did not involve any criminal activity. Today, the prosecutor representing the District Court, announced that, so far, no direct evidence linking the physician with criminal activity has been obtained.

https://www.jta.org/1959/08/13/archive/criminal-proceedings-dropped-against-physician-of-buchenwald-camp


Surely FRG prosecutors in 1958/9 would have been aware of Hoven's alleged order of 07.05.1942: "the preparation of so-called gift articles (shrunken heads etc.) is to be stopped." According to SR, it featured in Schnabel's 1957 book published in Frankfurt [it certainly appears in the 2nd edition, 1958]. The document didn't feature at either the IMT, NMT Doctors trial, Buchenwald trial, US Senate Hearing on Ilse Koch, or Augsburg-Koch trial. Przyrembel even opted not to mention it. Does she know something?

Eugen Kogon was a very close associate of three of Sergey's witnesses [Wegerer/Sitte/Ackermann], and had written about lampshades and shrunken heads in a US Army report before any of them ever mentioned such things. Kogon was proven to be passing off a forged Nazi document [Ding diary] during the NMT Pohl trial.

NMT Pohl trial transcript, p.5093f wrote:DR. FLEMMING [Mrugowsky's defence counsel]: The Tribunal will remember that when submitting the so-called "Ding Diary", I maintained that we are not concerned with a diary of the Block 46 in Buchenwald, but we are concerned with a forgery. In the meantime I submitted this so-called diary to two writting experts of the police Office in Nurnberg. They gave me their expert opinion which I wanted to submit to the Tribunel as Mrugowsky Document No. 8. It can to found on page 76 of the document book, and I offer it as Mrugowsky Exhibit no. 22, page 76. The expert opinion reads -the usual introduction, and then the third paragraph reads:

"On 5 February 1947 the undersigned were shown in the palace of Justice, Nurnberg, Document No. 275, Exhibit No. 287, which are the notes of a certain Dr. Ding.

"It was to be established whether these notes cover a long period of time and if the type script was made with one or several typewritters.

"In the course of a through examination the following was established:

1) That the paper of 27 leaves of Dr. Ding's notes correspond in color, smoothness, thickness and transparency. It can be assumed with certainty that the same sort of paper was used for all leaves of the notes.

2) The typed script of all notes was made by one machine. Besides the similarity of the size and shape of the types which show repeatedly on each page of the notes.

The following types are discussed here:

"The letter "f" has an oblateness in the head bend; the horizontal stroke on top is missing in the letter "k". The same is the case with the letter "h". The right upper part of the horizontal final stroke is missing in the letter "w". The upper horizontal stroke of the letter "m" is slightly damaged.

"These are individual damaged shapes, and owing to their constant appearance throughout the whole report it can safely be assumed that one and the same machine used for that copy.

'The machine could not hove been fitted with an SS-type because such a type was never used in the document.

The abbreviation signs in question was, to the contrary, made by the mark of "SS"."

The Tribunal will probably know the very characteristic SS-type which is not curved but has corners.

"3) Page 1 has a very fine script while the script on pages 2 and 12 shows a saturated dark coloring. We must come to the conclusion that page 1 was written with a different and older ribbon than pages 2 and 12. With regard to pages 2 and 12 it can be established that both in the reproduction of the color as well as in the degree of soiling, the typewr types correspond. Page 13 again shows a somewhat finer script which almost corresponds to the color of page 1. Contrary to that, the pages 14 to 16 show again a saturated coloring as seen on pages 2 to 12. Page 17 shows a fainter coloring than the previous pages 14 to 16. Pages 18 and 19 have an even fainter tint. Pages 20 and 21 again show a stronger tint than the previously mentioned pages which are, however, not so intentively dark as pages 2 to 12. Finally pages 22 and 26 indicate a completely worn out ribbon. The last page, 27, is very similar in color to page 17.

"It is, therefore, established that page 13 was not written at the same time as pages 2 and 12 and 14 and 16. Because of the corresponding degree of soiling of the typewriter types, it can be assumed that pages 2 and 12 and 14 and 16 were written within a short period of time. The degree of seiling of the types of page 13 varies from that of the previous and following pages.

"As it has been established that the types were written by one and same machine, and as it can not be assumed that a ribbon with a good coloring of pages 2 and 16 was changed for page 13, it must, therefore, be assumed that page 13 was written at a later date and introduced subsequent 4) Especially striking is the fact that the outer margin of the writing it vertical although there are several signatures by Dr. Ding on various pages which indicate an interruption and a re-insertion of the paper into the typewriter. A re-insertion of the paper usually results in a later displacement of the outer margin, even if only of a few millimeters.

"This conclusion proves that the entries for different times were type during a single insertion into the machine.

5) The fourteen signatures of Dr. Ding on pages 2 and 12 were made in thin light blue ink and correspond basically with regard to the execution of the signature. The appropriate rank of SS-Hauptsturm and SS-Sturmbannfuehrer have been added by a stamp. Or the other hand, the signature on page 13 is written in deep black ink, and the rank SS-Sturmbannfuehrer added in writing. On the following pages 14 to 17, the signature has be made again in light blue ink which corresponds to the color of the signatures on pages 2 to 12. On pages 18 and 27 the various signatures have been made in dark blue ink which do not show any essential differences From page 22 onwards the rank has been left out, while on page 25 the signature of Dr. Schuler was made in part without the addition of the Dr. title. The fact that on page 13 the type of signature and the use of a different ink is completely different from the regular execution of the signatures as on pages 2 and 12 and 14 and 17 also indicates that page 13 was written at a different time."

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/transcripts/1-transcript-for-nmt-1-medical-case?seq=5157&q=several+typewriters
Sender Jaari: And in another statement by you, made at another place, you said you visited Treblinka in 1942. Which year is correct?
Rudolf Hoess: 1941 is correct. If I said 1942, it was incorrect.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:23 am

You wrote the word refutation but you forgot to add an actual refutation. It is not clear what exactly the dropping of the case is supposed to prove in regard to the preparation of the said articles. It only shows that such was not seen as a crime (or a crime worth pursuing after 2 decades). Indeed, it is at most a desecration of corpses.

That's the same reason Spanner was not charged with anything despite admitting to having made human soap.

There's nothing alleged about Hoven's order. It exists and proves what we say it proves. You haven't cited anything to call any document into doubt, certainly not Ding's diary.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby BRoI » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:51 pm

Romanov wrote:The former inmate Kurt Leeser also testified about having seen a lampshade standing on a human leg-bone in the pathology (09.05.1947; United States v. Josias Prince zu Waldeck et al., trial transcript, pp. 1716, 1721).


This testimony was given a year after the publication of Eugen Kogon's book Der SS-Staat, in which he stated "[Karl] Koch himself had an "artistic" table lamp fashioned of human bones for his own use, with a shade of human skin."

Romanov opted not to mention that the communist Leeser claimed this lampshade was made from the skin of his friend Josef Collinette [alt: Collinet]. Why would Romanov choose to not to mention that?

Romanov probably doesn't know that Collinet is mentioned [p.69f] in Konrad Morgen's April 1944 "Brief against Koch and Dr. Hoven for corrupt practices at Buchenwald" [NO-2366] as having been one of the prisoners murdered by Dr. Hoven. Morgen even states that Hoven had admitted to administering Collinet with a lethal injection.

Who murdered Collinet? If it was Dr. Mueller, as Leeser claimed, why did Dr. Hoven admit to it?
Sender Jaari: And in another statement by you, made at another place, you said you visited Treblinka in 1942. Which year is correct?
Rudolf Hoess: 1941 is correct. If I said 1942, it was incorrect.


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