Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby BRoI » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:17 pm

Kurt Wilhelm Leeser
Buchenwald inmate: 23.09.38 - 11.04.45 [1]
Worked as a disinfector, but went to the PD "two or three times a week". [2]

1. p.1712 & 1718
2. p.1714

Kurt Lesser testimony at the Buchenwald trial wrote:
[p.1715]
Q [prosecution]. When you went to the pathological section there at Buchenwald did you have an occasion to see any tattooed skin?
A. Yes, quite frequently.
Q. Did you ever know any prisoner whose skin you later saw there in the pathological section?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the name of that prisoner?
A. Josef Collinette.
Q. Did you know Josef Collinette in his lifetime?
A. Yes.
Q. What kind of tattoo did he have on him during his lifetime?
A. He had a big boat on his back; he had his legs tattooed up to about here, about his knee, arms and the chest was full of tattoos as well.
Q. When was the last time you saw Josef Collinette alive?
A. I still saw him on Friday and the next week, on Thursday I saw the skin, in the pathological department with Josef Wegerer. He was the chief of the pathological department.
Q. Do you know what the condition of Josef Collinette's health was at the time you saw him?
A. He was very healthy. Might I remark something here?
Q. Yes, what is it?
A. One time Josef Collinette was called by Dr. Mueller to the hospital from the bath. I was quite surprised because this Dr. Mueller wanted to write a book about tattoos. Two days later I saw him standing up at the gate and he told me he had had to move out and a short time thereafter the skin was lying at Wegerer's place in the pathological department that I had last seen on Friday and on Thursday he was was there.
Q. Do you know what disposition was made of the skin of Josef Collinette?
A. That was put on the lampshade where the leg was, on that leg.
[p.1716]

[p.1719]
Q. [defence Captain Lewis] You testified about this incident with your friend Josef. When did this happen?
A. Shortly after Dr. Mueller had taken over the pathological.
Q. Can you tell us what year that was in?
A. I don't know that either.
Q. You testified that you saw the skin of your friend. Where did you see that skin?
A. In the pathological department in the glass container in which they were watered.
Q. Did you see the lamp shade on which the skin was?
A. Yes, five meters away.
Q. Where was this? Also in the pathological department?
A. Yes.
Q. And you recognized the skin on the lamp shade as being the skin of your friend, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell me how large was this ship that your friend had tattooed on his back?
A. It was on top; you could only see the sides.
Q. How large was this ship in size?
A. There were flowers from the arms on the sides about this big [indicating].
Q. Can you tell us how big the ship was in centimeters?
A. The width of the back of a normal man.
Q. And how many centimeters would you say that was?
A. I assume 40 centimeters.
Q. How tall was it?
A. Perhaps 35.
Q. This ship covered the whole back of your friend, isn't that so?
A. The upper part of the back.
Q. And this lamp shade that you saw with the ship on it, also had a human leg on it, is that correct?
A. Yes, the bones.
Q. Do you remember how many masts this ship had?
A. I only saw the ship on the back and not on the lamp later on.
Q. Didn't you just testifiy that you saw the lamp shade with the ship on it?
A. No, I stated that I saw the skin in that thing, but I stated that I saw the arm tattoos on the lamp shade.
Q. So that you never saw a lamp shade with a ship on it, is that right?
A. Since Dr. Mueller was in the room, and I was standing in the door, I could not go near it, because I was five meters away from it.
Q. So you never saw a lamp shade with a ship on it, did you?
A. Not the ship, only the arm tattooes.
[p.1721]
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:48 pm

Kogon is irrelevant, as is whose skin exactly the lampshade was made of (Leeser's testimony alone is in any case not conclusive as to the identification). Leeser does not claim Mueller murdered anyone in the quoted excerpt and even if he did that would only be an assumption. As usual, irrelevancies from the BRoI.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:22 pm

The Nazis have gotten such a bad rap.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:32 pm

IKR?
Don’t make me come down there!!!!
-God

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Balmoral95 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:06 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:As usual, irrelevancies from the BRoI.


Well yes, but he is the go-to guy if you like wire service stories from obscure American newspapers. :lol:

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby BRoI » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:31 am

Romanov wrote:Gustav Wegerer, the kapo in the Buchenwald pathology, wrote in his statement published in the so-called Buchenwald Report (Hackett D. (Hrsg.), 2010 (2.Aufl.), Der Buchenwald-Report. Bericht über das Konzentrationslager Buchenwald bei Weimar, S. 261):
Lolling was the chief doctor of all the concentration camps in Germany until the end. Mueller also gave Stöckel and Werner Bach the assignment of producing sheaths for pocket knives and other objects out of tanned human skin. Moreover, Lolling requested written instructions for the preparation of shrunken human heads, that is, human heads that were shrunk to the size of a fist, like those produced by the cannibals of the South Sea islands. There were reports from the information section of the American army about the methods of the South Sea islanders, which I sent to Lolling. In addition, the SS doctors themselves "prepared" a sizable number of heads here according to these methods.

He claimed that he gave "specimens" of the heads to the information section of the American army after 13.04.1945 (W. Bartel (Hrsg.), Buchenwald. Mahnung und Verpflichtung. Dokumente und Berichte, 1983, S. 179).


You evidently noticed the two books have radically different versions of the same Wegerer statement, yet you opted not to mention it, why?

FYI, the first time this statement was published, Wegerer mentioned no date in regarding to giving the US Army a few shrunken heads, pieces of tanned human skin, and knife sheathes made from tanned human skin:

Ein weiterer Auftrag war, für Lolling eine schriftliche Präparieranweisung über Schrumpfköpfe herzustellen. Schrumpfköpfe sind auf Faustgröße eingeschrumpfte Menschenköpfe nach Methode der Menschenfresser der Südsee präpariert. Ich habe Belegexemplare der Informationsabteilung der amerikanischen Armee überreicht, ebenfalls Stücke gegerbter Menschenhaut und davon angefertigter Taschenmesseretuis.

- Gustav Wegerer, cf. Benedikt Kautsky, Teufel und Verdammte, Zurich: Büchergilde Gutenberg, 1946, p.307.


Despite the man dying in 1954, when his statement was republished in 1960 it had evolved as follows:

Ein weiterer Auftrag bestand darin, für Lolling eine schriftliche Präparieranweisung über Schrumpfköpfe herzustellen. Schrumpfköpfe sind auf Faustgröße eingeschrumpfte Menschenköpfe, die, nach Methoden der Menschenfresser der Südsee, präpariert wurden.

Belegexemplare däruber, sowie Stücke gegerbter Menschenhaut und davon angefertigte Taschenmesseretuis habe ich nach dem 13. April 1945 der Informationsabteilung der amerikanischen Armee übergeben.

- Gustav Wegerer, cf. W. Bartel (ed), Buchenwald: Mahnung und Verpflichtung, Berlin: Kongress-Verlag, 1960, p.159.
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby BRoI » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:12 am

Romanov wrote:Does that mean that no human lampshades existed in Buchenwald? Not necessarily. It is likely that there is a certain core of truth to the lampshade story which also explains its origin.

The Buchenwald Museum explains:

For the existence of a lampshade from human skin there are two credible witnesses who made statements under oath: Dr. Gustav Wegerer, Austrian, political prisoner, kapo of the pathology, and Josef Ackermann, political prisoner in the pathology and secretary of the camp doctor Waldemar Hoven. [...] The time period can be defined more precisely through Ackermann's statement. Ackermann delivered the lamp, as he testified in 1950 in court. The lamp-foot was made from a human foot and shinbone; on the shade one saw tattoos and even nipples. On the occasion of the birthday party of Koch [August 1941] he was tasked by the camp doctor Hoven to bring the lamp to the Kochs' villa. This he did. One of the party guests told him later that the presentation of the lamp had been a huge success. The lamp immediately disappeared after the SS leadership learned about it. Ilse Koch could not be accused of making the lampshade.


That's very dishonest; you didn't even use an ellipsis!

The final sentence should read:

The lamp immediately disappeared after the SS leadership learned about it. Ilse Koch could not be accused of making the lampshade (according to A. L. Smith, Die Hexe von Buchenwald, Weimar, Cologne, Vienna 1994, p.192).


So, it's Romanov citing Stein citing Smith.

Romanov didn't check Smith's book, but I did. Smith's citations for his claims about Ackermann's statements at the Augsburg Kock trial [p.192] are as follows:

61) Schwäbische Landeszeitung, 6. Dezember 1950.
62) A.a.O., 8. Dezember 1950.

pp.248-9.


Articles regarding the Koch trial do appear in both cited editions [pages 3 and 7 respectively] but Ackermann isn't mentioned in either; Ackermann testified on 29 November 1950.

Another edition of the Schwäbische Landeszeitung Smith cites in the chapter does contain a report on Ackermann's testimony, and this article exposes his dishonesty [probably why he muddled the citations]:

Smith wrote [p.192]:

Vielleicht stammte die verläßlichste Aussage zu Ilses angeblichem Besitz von Menschenhaut von dem ehemaligen Häftling Josef Ackermann, inzwischen Senator in München. Er berichtete, er habe eine Lampe mit einem Schirm aus tätowierter Menschenhaut („man konnte darauf die Brustwarzen sehen") überbracht; der Lampenfuß sei aus einem menschlichen Fuß und Schienbein konstruiert gewesen. Der Anlaß sei eine Geburtstagsparty in der Villa Koch gewesen. Ackermann, der zur damaligen Zeit als Sekretär bei Doktor Hoven arbeitete, habe den Auftrag erhalten, die Lampe zur Villa Koch zu bringen. Er teilte mit, einer der Partygäste habe ihm anschließend erzählt, die Lampe sei ein Riesenerfolg gewesen.


The Schwäbische Landeszeitung report [cited multiple times by Smith: endnotes 58, 59, 64, 70, 73, on pp.248-9] states:

Senator Ackermann, der Vorsitzende des Bayerischen Journalistenverbandes, sprach als nächster Zeuge aus reicher KZ-Erfahrung. Man legte ihm gegerbte Menschenhaut-Reste mit Tätowierungen vor. „Hier erkennt man noch die Brustwarzen", sagte Ackermann.

- "Menschenhautreste mit Tätowierungen: Ilse Kochs ständiges "Stimmt nicht!", Schwäbische Landeszeitung, 1 December 1950, p.10.


Smith completely lied. Ackermann didn't say the nipples were visible on the lampshade, he said he could see nipples on the piece of skin he was just given in court.

Stein's an idiot for not checking Smith's claims. Ditto for Romanov, but he deserves extra scorn for clipping Stein's text without using an ellipsis to disguise the fact he was relying on a third-hand source.

[edit to correct formatting error]
Last edited by BRoI on Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Balmoral95 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:37 am

I guess it's now an open secret as to who will will win the SSF pedantry award this year. :lol:
Last edited by Balmoral95 on Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Darren Wilshak » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:30 am

A head hunting tribe from Malaysia?

I'm a bit meh, not the heads again!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq1LBYQk-rM

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby BRoI » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:42 am

Darren Wilshak wrote:A head hunting tribe from Malaysia?


Yeah, Romanov's star witnesses struggled to pin point where tsantsas originated:

"cannibals of the South Seas"
- Wegerer, statement purportedly dated "23 April 1945"

Even when they did get it right, it appears to have been luck:

"prepared by the priests among the primitive peoples of South America"
- Ackermann, 21.03.47 affidavit NO-2631

"But for the first time in Europe we did something which, until that period of time, was only known from the descriptions in the journals of South Africa. That is, the manufacture of shrunken skulls"
- Ackermann, 23.04.47, NMT Pohl trial testimony


Darren Wilshak wrote:I'm a bit meh, not the heads again!

That's probably what Ilse Koch thought too:

Image
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby BRoI » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:44 am

As I mentioned previously, the following "Nazi document" posted by Hans—that supposedly proves human-skin articles were produced at Buchenwald—did not feature in any of the relevant post-war trials, and appears to have been mentioned for the first time in 1957/8.

Hans wrote:The production of souvenirs from human corpses such as shrunken heads is supported by the following letter from the SS garrison doctor to the head of the pathology in concentration camp Buchenwald of 7 May 1942, which says that the production of such items has to cease immediately (which would not be necessary to order if they were not made in the first place):

Image
(Schnabel, Macht ohne Moral, p. 361)


But an entirely different "Nazi document" about the production of shrunken heads was quoted in an Austrian-communist newspaper in December 1945.

I learnt this from the same unpublished Neander study cited by Romanov. Neander describes this alleged order as "communist atrocity propaganda" and speculates the author of the newspaper article was possibly relying on Gustav Wegerer's statement—the one discussed here.

Romanov, of course, didn't mention anything about it. Whereas I went to the library to get a copy from a microfilm.

I discovered [pdf p.179] that Wegerer was actually the then-editor of this newspaper! So, he almost certainly wrote the article, which reads [tweaked GT]:

We learnt the following from a former inmate of this camp [Buchenwald]:

Standartenführer Lolling was chief of Department D III of Supreme SS leadership in Berlin. He was head of the "health care system for the concentration camps" and was responsible for the mass liquidation of anti-fascists through the use of medical killing methods. From him comes the following service order:

"To the camp physicians of the concentration camps Sachsenhausen, Dachau, Buchenwald, Auschwitz, Mauthausen, Flossenbürg, Belsen, Natzweiler: Attached you will find preparation instructions for the production of shrunken heads. Camp physicians are instructed to organise the manufacture of shrunken heads in camp pathological departments and report to Department D III on a monthly basis. Finished shrunken heads should be sent to my office along with the tanned tattoos."

Lolling had previously issued a similar order for the production of leather from tattooed and tanned human skin.

- "Die Lampenschirmfabriken der Nazi", Österreichische Volksstimme, Thursday, 20 December 1945, p.2.


So, we have a newspaper edited by one of Romanov's star witnesses publishing a clearly fake order regarding shrunken heads.

Perhaps someone might argue for its authenticity, but they would be duty-bound to explain how an order from someone as senior as Lolling was soon overruled by someone as comparatively lowly as Hoven, i.e. the document posted by Hans.
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Balmoral95 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:53 am

>"Romanov, of course, didn't mention anything about it. Whereas I went to the library to get a copy from a microfilm."

Nice. Now maybe the Shrunken Head Fairy will leave a quarter under your pillow tonight.

Sanctimonious putz.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:33 am

BRoI wrote:You evidently noticed the two books have radically different versions of the same Wegerer statement, yet you opted not to mention it, why?

I assumed that those were 2 statements given in the same period (with parts recycled). Where does it state that it's the same statement?

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:39 am

BRoI wrote:That's very dishonest; you didn't even use an ellipsis!


Since between the two of us you're the only dishonest one, it is safe to assume that any such accusation is false. And indeed: since I didn't omit anything from the middle of the text, carefully cited and attributed my quote and have no obligation to mention what amounts to a footnote, there was no need for an ellipsis. So your accusation was indeed a false one, as usual.

The final sentence should read:


Um, no, it's not up to you to say what the final sentence should read.

Romanov didn't check Smith's book


And BRoI has just been caught lying again. What a dishonest rabbit!
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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:42 am

BRoI wrote:As I mentioned previously, the following "Nazi document" posted by Hans—that supposedly proves human-skin articles were produced at Buchenwald—did not feature in any of the relevant post-war trials

It didn't have to be. The main thing is that it proves the shrunken heads, thus debunking poor dishonest Rabbit's fantasies.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:11 am

PS: still, very nice of the BRoI, despite his overwhelming dishonesty, to have published the fake text. It very nicely confirms the authenticity of the Hoven order. Not that there has been any doubt.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:29 am

Smith completely lied. Ackermann didn't say the nipples were visible on the lampshade, he said he could see nipples on the piece of skin he was just given in court.


Of course the quote Smith gives ("man konnte darauf die Brustwarzen sehen") is not at all the quote present in the article the Dishonest Rabbit cites ("Hier erkennt man noch die Brustwarzen"). Which implies that this is not the source Smith relied on for this paragraph (the other thing being that it doesn't have the rest of the story, which should have been a give-away lol).

So here we see one of the Rabbit's tricks that he constantly projects on the others.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby BRoI » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:12 am

Sergey_Romanov wrote:
Smith completely lied. Ackermann didn't say the nipples were visible on the lampshade, he said he could see nipples on the piece of skin he was just given in court.


Of course the quote Smith gives ("man konnte darauf die Brustwarzen sehen") is not at all the quote present in the article the Dishonest Rabbit cites ("Hier erkennt man noch die Brustwarzen"). Which implies that this is not the source Smith relied on for this paragraph (the other thing being that it doesn't have the rest of the story, which should have been a give-away lol).

So here we see one of the Rabbit's tricks that he constantly projects on the others.


You jumped the gun; I didn't quote all of it. Here's the text relating to Ackermann in its entirety:

Senator Ackermann, der Vorsitzende des Bayerischen Journalistenverbandes, sprach als nächster Zeuge aus reicher KZ-Erfahrung. Man legte ihm gegerbte Menschenhaut-Reste mit Tätowierungen vor, „Hier erkennt man noch die Brustwarzen", sagte Ackermann. „Mit an Sicherheit grenzender Wahrscheinlichkeft ist das gegerbte Menschenhaut, wie wir sie unzählige Male in Buchenwald gesehen und hergestellt haben Aber die Sache mit der Lampe und dem tätowierten Schirm kann man der Angeklagten nicht unmittelbar zuschreiben. Dieses Schmuckstück bekam ihr Mann als Geburtstagsgeschenk. Doch die höheren SS-Dienststellen erfuhren davon. Dann verschwand die Lampe mit dem Schirm wieder."

- "Menschenhautreste mit Tätowierungen: Ilse Kochs ständiges "Stimmt nicht!", Schwäbische Landeszeitung, 1 December 1950, p.10.


Smith immediately follows his two paragraphs on Ackermann's testimony with:

Arthur Smith, Die Hexe... wrote:Die Presse feierte Ackermanns Aussage als wichtige Enthüllung, übersah allerdings bewußt seine letzte Bemerkung. [p.192]


Smith's reference to Ackermann's 'last remark', i.e. that Ilse Koch could not be implicated with the manufacture of the lampshade, is very strong evidence that Smith was heavily relying on the SL 01.12.50 article. None of the other articles I've checked/found on Ackermann's testimony even mention it, never mind quote Ackermann on this point.

Although, it was clearly not from the SL 01.12.50 that Smith based his following claims:

1. Ackermann said the lamp had a human foot and shin bone base
2. Ackermann had been Dr. Hoven's secretary
3. Ackermann was ordered to take/send the lampshade to the party
4. Ackermann was later told the lampshade had been a success at the party

But a NYT article, which Smith cites on the previous page [191; endnote 58, p.248] , mentions variations of those four:

Image

Following are extracts of three more articles which reported on Ackermann's description of the lampshade, none of these are cited by Smith, and none of them mention nipples:

Daß Menschenhaut gegerbt und zu allerlei Gegenständen verarbeitet wurde, bestätigte Ackermann. Einmal habe er im Auftrag eines der Lagerärzte dem Kommandanten Karl Koch ein Geburtstagsgeschenk in dessen Villa schicken müssen. Es war eine Lampe, deren Schirm aus Stücken „besonders schön tätowierter Menschenhaut" bestand und deren Ständer ein präparierter menschlicher Fuß bildete. Der Schalter war als Druckknopf auf der kleinen Zehe angebracht.

- "Zeugen schildern grauenvolle Zustände in KZ-Lagern", Die Neue Zeitung, 30.11.50, p.10


Ackermann, der fünf Jahre lang Arztschreiber in der Lagerpathologie war, erinnerte sich noch genau, daß zum Geburtstag des Kommandanten Koch eine Stehlampe aus Menschenknochen und tätowierter Menschenhaut hergestellt und in die Villa Koch geschafft werden mußte; später sei diese Lampe jedoch in die Pathologie zurückgekommen.

- "Ilse Koch und die Menschenhaut", Süddeutsche Zeitung, 30.11.50 p.2


Another former laboratory worker, Joseph Ackermann, said the director ordered a "very special present" for [Karl] Koch's birthday, a lamp made of human skin and bone. "The light was switched on by pressure against the little toe of one of the three human feet which formed the stand."

- "Germany: Very Special Present", Time, 25 December 1950, v.56 n.26, p.23.


An AP article in a US newspaper confirms that Ackermann was shown pieces of human skin in court:

Ackermann, a Munich city official, told the court that the lamp in question was removed from the Koch household when nazi authorities, hearing of the present, order an investigation.

He described a grisly laboratory in the camp where hundreds of human skins were selected for tanning experiments.

Three squares of tattooed skin were offered as evidence. Ackermann testified they resembled those he had seen at Buchenwald.

- Buffalo Courier-Express, 30 November 1950, p.8


Findings:

1. The only article on the Augsburg-Koch trial in Smith's cited source ["Schwäbische Landeszeitung, 6. Dezember 1950] for his claim Ackermann testified that nipples were visible on the lampshade doesn't even mention Ackermann, nor human-skin, lampshades, or nipples.

2. The only article on the Augsburg-Koch trial in another source cited by Smith ["Schwäbische Landeszeitung, 1. Dezember 1950] states that Ackermann testified that the nipples were visible on a piece of tanned human-skin he was shown in court.

3. The article in Schwäbische Landeszeitung, 01.12.50, is the only article presently known to me that mentions a) Ackermann saying anything about nipples; b) Ackermann's insistence that Ilse Koch could not be implicated in the manufacture of the lampshade.

4. Considering 1, 2, 3a & 3b, especially Smith's emphasis of 3b in his text, the evidence strongly suggests that Smith relied heavily on Schwäbische Landeszeitung, 01.12.50.

People are free to believe:

A. Smith's alleged Ackermann quote is still genuine
B. Smith's false citation for the quote was an error, and isn't overly important
C. Smith's non-mention of a different Ackermann quote about nipples in another of his sources is purely coincidental
D. Somewhere out there, Smith's real source is waiting to be found.

But it would be thoroughly dishonest for HC to continue to promulgate this particular claim without at least warning your readers that it presently has no known source of origin.
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:52 am

> I didn't quote all of it.

So you don't quote the relevant stuff, yet you (falsely) accuse others of dishonesty when they (rightfully) omit one unimportant sentence. Hmm.

Anyway, you have shown that Smith was sloppy on the point of the nipples (though you haven't shown that he "lied"). I will update the article accordingly.

You have confirmed the rest of the description from Ackermann and that's the take-away for today.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:29 pm

I have read through some of the NMT discussions of the Ding diary and decided not to rely on it to establish Hoven's rank. Quite aside from any issues of authenticity the diary was proven to be unreliable specifically when it comes to the ranks of the people mentioned in it, hence it cannot prove the very I thing I used it to prove.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:42 am

BRoI wrote:Kogon was proven to be passing off a forged Nazi document [Ding diary] during the NMT Pohl trial.

NMT Pohl trial transcript, p.5093f wrote:DR. FLEMMING [Mrugowsky's defence counsel]: The Tribunal will remember that when submitting the so-called "Ding Diary", I maintained that we are not concerned with a diary of the Block 46 in Buchenwald, but we are concerned with a forgery. In the meantime I submitted this so-called diary to two writting experts of the police Office in Nurnberg. They gave me their expert opinion which I wanted to submit to the Tribunel as Mrugowsky Document No. 8. It can to found on page 76 of the document book, and I offer it as Mrugowsky Exhibit no. 22, page 76. The expert opinion reads -the usual introduction, and then the third paragraph reads:

"On 5 February 1947 the undersigned were shown in the palace of Justice, Nurnberg, Document No. 275, Exhibit No. 287, which are the notes of a certain Dr. Ding.

"It was to be established whether these notes cover a long period of time and if the type script was made with one or several typewritters.

"In the course of a through examination the following was established:

1) That the paper of 27 leaves of Dr. Ding's notes correspond in color, smoothness, thickness and transparency. It can be assumed with certainty that the same sort of paper was used for all leaves of the notes.

2) The typed script of all notes was made by one machine. Besides the similarity of the size and shape of the types which show repeatedly on each page of the notes.

The following types are discussed here:

"The letter "f" has an oblateness in the head bend; the horizontal stroke on top is missing in the letter "k". The same is the case with the letter "h". The right upper part of the horizontal final stroke is missing in the letter "w". The upper horizontal stroke of the letter "m" is slightly damaged.

"These are individual damaged shapes, and owing to their constant appearance throughout the whole report it can safely be assumed that one and the same machine used for that copy.

'The machine could not hove been fitted with an SS-type because such a type was never used in the document.

The abbreviation signs in question was, to the contrary, made by the mark of "SS"."

The Tribunal will probably know the very characteristic SS-type which is not curved but has corners.

"3) Page 1 has a very fine script while the script on pages 2 and 12 shows a saturated dark coloring. We must come to the conclusion that page 1 was written with a different and older ribbon than pages 2 and 12. With regard to pages 2 and 12 it can be established that both in the reproduction of the color as well as in the degree of soiling, the typewr types correspond. Page 13 again shows a somewhat finer script which almost corresponds to the color of page 1. Contrary to that, the pages 14 to 16 show again a saturated coloring as seen on pages 2 to 12. Page 17 shows a fainter coloring than the previous pages 14 to 16. Pages 18 and 19 have an even fainter tint. Pages 20 and 21 again show a stronger tint than the previously mentioned pages which are, however, not so intentively dark as pages 2 to 12. Finally pages 22 and 26 indicate a completely worn out ribbon. The last page, 27, is very similar in color to page 17.

"It is, therefore, established that page 13 was not written at the same time as pages 2 and 12 and 14 and 16. Because of the corresponding degree of soiling of the typewriter types, it can be assumed that pages 2 and 12 and 14 and 16 were written within a short period of time. The degree of seiling of the types of page 13 varies from that of the previous and following pages.

"As it has been established that the types were written by one and same machine, and as it can not be assumed that a ribbon with a good coloring of pages 2 and 16 was changed for page 13, it must, therefore, be assumed that page 13 was written at a later date and introduced subsequent 4) Especially striking is the fact that the outer margin of the writing it vertical although there are several signatures by Dr. Ding on various pages which indicate an interruption and a re-insertion of the paper into the typewriter. A re-insertion of the paper usually results in a later displacement of the outer margin, even if only of a few millimeters.

"This conclusion proves that the entries for different times were type during a single insertion into the machine.

5) The fourteen signatures of Dr. Ding on pages 2 and 12 were made in thin light blue ink and correspond basically with regard to the execution of the signature. The appropriate rank of SS-Hauptsturm and SS-Sturmbannfuehrer have been added by a stamp. Or the other hand, the signature on page 13 is written in deep black ink, and the rank SS-Sturmbannfuehrer added in writing. On the following pages 14 to 17, the signature has be made again in light blue ink which corresponds to the color of the signatures on pages 2 to 12. On pages 18 and 27 the various signatures have been made in dark blue ink which do not show any essential differences From page 22 onwards the rank has been left out, while on page 25 the signature of Dr. Schuler was made in part without the addition of the Dr. title. The fact that on page 13 the type of signature and the use of a different ink is completely different from the regular execution of the signatures as on pages 2 and 12 and 14 and 17 also indicates that page 13 was written at a different time."

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/transcripts/1-transcript-for-nmt-1-medical-case?seq=5157&q=several+typewriters

Hmm.

Q Now, this second affidavit of Dietsch taken after he was indicted apparently is that you forged that diary at some time after April 1945. We haven't been given a copy of the affidavit, but that is the connection. I want you pick up the affidavit and look through it and look at the color of the typewritten print on each page.

PAGE 906
A I cannot understand the end of the question.

Q I want you to look at the color of the type on each page and see if you don't find a variation in the color of the type.

A Yes, I can see changes of the color where the typewriter ribbon, and to be exact on pages 1, is lighter that is compared with all the other pages, page 13 is lighter than the other pages. Then page 17, 18, 19 again are the same, but they are not the same as the other pages. Page 20 is different, 21 is the same, 22 is different again, 23 is a different colors; 24 again is the same as 23, and 25 as the page before, 26 the same, 27 is darker, in other words, a frequent change.

Q I will ask the clerk to pass the document up to the Tribunal and I will also call the Tribunal's attention to the fact that this man in Case No. 1 produced an affidavit of two experts as he classed them who went through this diary with a fine toothed comb and came up with several exciting discoveries about this diary, but one finding was that it was all typed on the same machine. They drew attention to the fact that the pages 1 and 13 were in a lighter color than the type of pages 2 to 12 and from 14 on to about 16, 17 and put it that page 13 was written at a different time than pages 2 to 12 and 14 on. In other words, 13 was written at a latter date. Now, Doctor, I ask that if you falsified this document, it must have been done between the 2d of April and when was it the camp was captured by the Americans?

A On the 12th of April 1945.

Q Between the 2d and 12th of April, 1945. Now it is all done on the same typewriter. What was the reason that you wanted to change the ribbon as you wrote along when you falsified this document. Can you suggest a reason for that?

A Well, I could have forged the diary later on too, because, after all, I didn't turn it over to the American authorities on the 12th of April, but a little bit later. It isn't very easy for me, although I am a writer, to see all the criminal reasons behind this, as it were, criminal book mystery story which would enduce me to use different typewriter ribbon in order to carry out such a falsification, because I really didn't even have one in the whole thing.

PAGE 907
That is why at the present moment, I can't find a motive for me, why I must have changed the typewriter ribbon.


There's much more to this discussion that BRoI chose to omit...

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/transc ... se?seq=920

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Balmoral95 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:53 am

He probably doesn't want to bore us with extraneous relevant detail. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby BRoI » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:08 pm

Romanov omitted the second half of Stein's sentence and inserted a period where one shouldn't exist, but boldly insists he's done nothing wrong!

Now he's accusing me of *omitting* scores of pages of trial transcript when I made it perfectly clear that I was quoting the police investigators' report as it was read into the transcript.

btw, Kogon told the Buchenwald trial about his associates' competence in forging back-dated nazi documents:

at the beginning of April, 1943, the order came from the political department that I had to be brought to Auschwitz for gassing. With the help of the prisoners' own administration I was saved through the tuberculosis department of the camp. Saved in this connection means that the political department was holding back my order until I had recovered again.

Q. Was that done by the SS in the political department, or by whom?

A. Some of my friends among the prisoners' own administration, and some of my friends in the prisoners' hospital, falsified during one night all documents, dated them back, and reported to the political department that I was severely suffering of T.B. This way I was taken out of such a transport three times.

- Eugene Kogon testimony, US vs. Josias Prince zu Waldeck et al., 16 April 1947, pp. 269-270.


[edit: corrected typo in quoted passage]
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:06 am

> Romanov omitted the second half of Stein's sentence and inserted a period where one shouldn't exist

OK, you have convinced me. An inadvertent mistake.

You dishonesty about the transcripts is open for all to see, omitting the significant discussions that took place during the trials, including those that took place as a direct follow-up to the report, and pretending that the report establishes anything by itself.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby BRoI » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:50 pm

Perhaps you'd care to offer an explanation as to why the judges of the NMT Doctors trial needed to invent the following lies about Kogon having worked with Ding since the first half of 1942, and having typed the first portion of the diary.

NMT Doctors trial judgment wrote:
In April 1943 he was assigned to Ding as a clerk or assistant. For many months prior to that time, however, he had been on extremely friendly terms with Ding and as a consequence was completely familiar with Ding's operations. Indeed, so close was the attachment that during the first half of the year 1942 Ding had dictated the first portion of the diary which is in evidence, and Kogon had transcribed it. After officially becoming Ding's assistant in 1943 all correspondence of every nature with which Ding was concerned passed through the hands of Kogon.

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=64839


Kogon actually testified that he first worked for Ding in June 1943, that the diary was originally dictated to the clerk Gadczinski, and he never even laid eyes on it until after 15 August 1943 [from the autumn of 1940 to March 1943 Kogen worked in the tailors' workshop].

Kogon, NMT Doctors trial, p.1225 wrote:Q You, yourself, came to Dr. Ding only in April? 1943?

A Yes.

Q How do you know about events before that time?

A I know that from statements of Dr. Ding-Schuler himself? and also from diary notes which he personally made for himself. May I point out that Dr. Ding-Schuler, during the last half year before our liberation, requested that I write a history of his person for his family.

In order to do this he gave me all documents which he had at his disposal and from these documents I was supposed to write that. From these documents, I was able to see all of the difference things that had occurred before my time.


Kogon, NMT Doctors trial, p.1226-1227 wrote:Q When did you see the official diary of the Section for Typhus and Virus Research in Buchenwald for the first time?

A The diary which was presented to me yesterday, is the Diary of Block 46. I had seen that for the first time after I had moved to Block 50. And that, under no circumstances, is before the 15th of August, 1943.

Q What did the diary look like the first time you saw it? Were loose leaves fastened together in the folders? What did it look like?

A It had exactly the same form as today.

Q Could one see whether this diary was kept constantly or whether it was written all at once?

A I know the history of this diary from the statements of Dr. Ding Schuler himself, and also from the statements of Capo Arthur Dietsch; as well as the physician's clerk in Block 46, a certain Gadczinski. I also know on the basis of the documents which were started from the very beginning of the establishment of that block and on the basis of the personal notes which Dr. Schuler made in his private diary. He dictated as far a I can recall the first half of 1942. He dictated the diary of Block 46 until the period of time and all at the same time. From the time on, the diary was filled regularly from experiment to experiment.

Q You say that Dr. Ding dictated the beginning of the diary about the middle of 1942?

A In the first half of that year

Q In the first half of 1942. Thank you.


Kogon, NMT Doctors trial, p.1259 wrote:Q. You read Dr. Ding's report to the Military Medical Academy, didn't you, the report?

A. Yes. May I ask you which report you are talking about?

Q. The report which Dr. Ding made before the Military Medical Academy about his experiments.

A. No, I did not read that report, The third Military Medical conference with which we are here concerned took place, as far as I can recollect, during the first half of May, 1943, in Berlin. During the second half of the month of April, I was attached to Dr. Ding-Schuler as medical clerk; and my work with him began only on the 2nd or 6th of June, 1943 after Dr. Ding's return from Berlin. It was then that he told me during the very first days of my work for him about this conference; but I must say in that connection that between the time of Dr. Ding's return from Berlin and the beginning of my clerk's work for him, that is to say, between the end of May or the second half of May, and the 6th of June, I saw Dr. Ding quite frequently and had orders and instructions from him.


During his later appearance at the Pohl trial, Kogon's testimony again contradicts the NMT Doctors trial judgment:

Kogon, NMT Pohl trial, p.916 wrote:Again I say that Dr. Ding-Schuler, on the basis of the documents, did from case to case, that is, from experiment to experiment, which in some cases lasted for months on end, dictate the entry, but he did not dictate it into the typewriter, he merely dictated it to the clerk, Gaczinsky, who took stenographic notes, and from those notes, the notes were concerned with several cases at a distance of three or four months. That does not change the fact that Ding-Schuler from case to case, that is to say at a few weeks or a months' distance, gave the dictation for that diary. I myself was never present when he dictated. I did not see myself how it was written down in Block 46. I merely took over the diary in the same way as it was, and I did not change it.
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:18 pm

You might be missing the point. The diary is a weird document and the question of its authenticity and provenance should indeed be discussed further. We may do just that in the future. Your initial citing of the police report was not sufficient to establish serious doubts about it, much less to prove it a fake (albeit it did require a follow-up investigation). Some of the observations in the report may become crucial when coupled with other evidence (and some maybe not, like the color changes). Taken alone they're just neutral observations.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby BRoI » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:49 am

Affidavit by Kapo Arthur Dietzsch, the chief administrator in Dr. Ding's experimental station, Block 46, in which he confirms he was present when the original diary was destroyed and effectively confirms that the "diary" presented by Eugen Kogon was a forgery.

COPY
Arthur DIETZSCH
Nuernberg, 3 April 1947
AFFIDAVIT.

I, Arthur DIETZSCH, born on 2 October 1901 in Pausa/Vogtland, at present in Nuernberg prison, have been cantioned [recte: cautioned] that I make myself liable to punishment for false statements. I hereby declare on oath that my statement is true and was made to be submitted as evidence to the Military Tribunal No. 1, Palace of Justice, Nuernberg, Germany:

I. The original document No. 256, Pr. Ex. 287 was submitted to me. With reference to this, I declare the following:

During the last days of March or the first days of April 1945, Dr. DING suddenly appeared in ward 46 in a state of excitement and said that orders had just been received to destroy all documents. Thereupon, in Dr. DING's presence I had to collect and place on the table all documents of ward 46, namely graphs, case histories, the diary and various other papers, where Dr. DING himself tore up all documents, and threw them into the burning iron stove in the room. Among these documents there also was the secret diary of ward 46. I had intended to take it away secretly so as to save it from destruction. However, DING specially remembered the diary and I had to produce it upon his express instruction. He then also took the diary and burned it in the stove. Following the burning, DING himself made sure that all papers were completely cleared and nothing remained that could still be read. He also searched the cabinets for anything that might have been left behind by mistake.

The statement of the witness Dr. KOGON on page 1199 of the German record of 6 January 1947, p.m., according to which KOGON claims to have saved this diary from destruction, is in my opinion incorrect. It is impossible that KOGON should have been able to slip the diary out unobserved as DING as well as I and the clerk of the ward, GADZIESKI, did not leave the room until all papers were completely destroyed. Above all his statement that I took the material to be burned to the crematorium where I burned it, is incorrect, I entered the crematorium for the first time after the camp had been liberated by the Americans, never before. How Dr. KOGON can render such a description is beyond my understanding. It is therefore impossible that Dr. KOGON should have surrendered the secret diary of ward 46 to the American troops after the liberation.

II. The original secret diary of ward 46 was also loosely found [recte: bound], yet it had a different cover. The cover did not bear the imprint. "Diary" (Tagebuch) like the documents I was shown today but had the imprint "Secret Diary" (Geheimtagebuch) and the type of writing was larger and courser than on the document shown to me today. The left margin of the cover on the original document had no row of figures and letters printed on it. The paper used in the diary originated from various deliveries. Thus different kinds of paper were used. The original paper supplies had a water mark reading "Government property" (Behoerdeneigentum). The diary I was shown today did not contain one single sheet of such paper. I also remember that we once changed the typewriter in ward 46 as the machine hitherto used was out of order. The document shown today has obviously the same types [sic] all through.

In the ward diary no official stamp was used in addition to Dr. DWG's signature. We simply did not possess such a stamp in ward 46. Dr. DING never used his doctor's degree when signing in the diary but always this name, DING, similar to the. way it is to be found on page 24 of document No. 265 shown to me today.

III. As to tho contents of the document submitted to me today, I have to state the following:

1.) The heading in the ward diary does not read "Diary of the department for spotted fever and virus research" but entries started without any kind of heading. At that time the institute in Buchenwald did not have this name at all but was then simply known as isolation ward of the infirmary.

2.) As for [sic] as I remember, the first entry on page one was a different one. There was no date and the following conveys the meaning:

"At the end of November a discussion took place at which the following were present: HANDLOSER, SCHREIBER, ROSE, GILDEMEISTER, MRUGOWSKY and DING. It was decided to test the reaction caused by, and the effect of spotted fever vaccine on human beings as experiments with animals had not yielded inambiguous [sic] results. Dr. DING was entrusted with the execution of these experiments, Dr. ROVEN [recte: HOVEN] was appointed as his deputy." I remember distinctly that the names CONTI and REITER were not contained in this entry.

3.) To page 2: I know nothing of a preliminary experiment "A" although I worked in the ward from the very start.

4.) In the diary shown to me Dr. DING signed quite irregularly in various places. In the real ward diary his name, that is the name DING by itself, without the addition "Dr." , was as a rule, to be found on each page in the bottom right corner.

5.) Furthermore I notice that the various series of experiments show no valution of the individual, already tested vaccine. This, however, was the case in the original diary of ward 46 up to 1943.

6.) I remember distinctly that in the course of the first series of spotted fever experiments no deaths occurred. I cannot understand how this statement about the series of experiments got into the document submitted to me to-day. The series of experiments I [sic] with spotted fever vaccines was the first in which I participated and casualties within this series could therefore most certainly not have slipped my memory.

7.) The entry : 28 - 31 Dec. 42 concerning diphteria vaccimation [sic] at the reserve battalion of the "Adolf Hitler" SS Leibstandarte has nothing to do with ward 46 and was not entered in the ward diary.

8.) The experiment with the yellow fever vaccine, entered in the document shown to me on pace 9 under 10 January 43 is carried out with the vaccine intended for the Africa Corps. The only reactions to be observed were those usually following a vaccination. The list of tested operation numbers did not appear in the ward diary in the form of a synopsis, as in the document shown to me, but the individual vaccination carried out with the individual operation number was listed separately in chronological order. I remember having seen the list of operation numbers in the form in which it appears in the document submitted to me, in a later conclusive report from which it was presumably copied into the document shown to me ..

As to the yellow fever experiments, there were volunteers available owing to the fact that the experiment was not dangerous, that the persons on which the experiments were carries out did not have to work and received occasionally supplementary food rations. Only Germans held in protective custody were used, no foreigners. On the other hand numerous foreigners suffering from acute attacks of spotted fever received treatment in ward 46.

9.) The entry of 3 February 1913 concerning sterilization experiments with some "ovum vaccine" (Eier-Impfstoff) had nothing to do with ward 46. It was not to be found in the original diary.

10.) The same applies to the entry of 22 February 43 about the examination of unknown bacteria.

11.) This also applies to the entry of 7 March 1943 concerning the testing of water amd [sic] inspection of the VUGHT concentration camp as well as to the entries of 8 March 43 - 10 March 43, namely inspection of quarters.

12.) On page 20 was the name KOCH-HOVEN under the entry of 30-31 Dec. 43. Special experiment on 4 persons is not in the ward diary.

13.) In the case of each series of experiments with spotted fever vaccine, the individual days on which the vaccinations were carried out as well as the quantity of vaccine used were stated in detail in the diary of block 46, more or less in the same manner as on page 22 of the document submitted to me, concerning the "Wiemar" series of experiments, entry 22 January 44 - 31 January 44. In the document shown to me these specified entries are generally missing.

IV. I do not know who gave orders to carry out the experiments with yellow fever vaccine and upon whose order persons used in these tests were allocated. Only once Dr. DING showed me a letter from HIMMLER with instructions to nurse and feed prisoners in the course of experiments with yellow fever vaccine as if they were in a sanatorium, and to supply them amply with medicaments [sic].

Dr. DING showed us this letter in ward 44/49 and referred to it when the camp management and administration was trying to be difficult concerning food or other matters. The letter was written on a sheet headed "'The Reich Führer SS" (Der Reichsführer SS). There was no addition such as "Reich Surgeon SS and Police or personal staff' (Reichsarzt SS und Polizei oder persönlichen Stab) or anything similar. On the whole, DING, did not inform me of orders be [he?] received. I came to Dr. DING at the beginning of January 1942. I had then just been released from the guard house and was to be sent away on a "dead night shipment" (Nacht- and Nebel Transport). When discussing with other prisoners how this could be forestalled, I was told that efforts would be made to get me into Dr. DING's new isolation ward where I would be safe for the time being. Who it was who eventually suggested to Dr. DING to accept me I do not know, in any case I was assigned to him.

V. Dr. DING did not inform us about the nature of his future activity. I helped to set up the testing wards 44 and 49 and later on 46. In compliance with HIMMLER's letter, the ward was very well equipped.

VI. KOGONS declaration on page 1201 of the German record which was shown to me and in which is stated that during the last years there were also Poles, Russians and Frenchmen among the people on whom spotted fever experiments were carried out, is incorrect.

Russians, Poles and other Eastern peoples were never used in spotted fever experiments as there are continuous epidemics of spotted fever in their native countries and it is to be assumed that infection encountered during their childhood has made them basically immune against spotted fever.

Frenchmen, however, were not in the camp at a later period [sic]. Later on, at a time when there were Frenchmen there, the Reich Criminal Police Office (Reichskriminal-Polizei-Amt) selected prisoners who were to be used for the series of experiments. These were exclusively German professional criminals. Thus there were to my knowledge no Frenchmen among the persons used for experiments at any time whatever.

VII. MRUGOWSKY inspected ward 46 only once for approximately 1/4 hour.
signed : Arthur DIETZSCH.

I, Dr. Wilhelm SCHMIDT, assistant attorney at Military Tribilnal No. I, Nürnberg, hereby certify and bear witness that the above signature was written by Arthur DIETZSCH in my presence.

Nürnberg, 4 April 1947.
signed : Dr. Wilhelm SCHMIDT.

This is to certify that this is a literal and correct copy the above document.

Nürnberg 25 April 1947.
Signature: Fritz FLEMMING
(signed: Fritz FLEMMING )
(Lawyer and Notary)
http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/documents/788-affidavit-concerning-dr-dings?q=Arthur+DIETZSCH#p.7
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:58 am

Why don't you post Kogon's comments on that while you're at it.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby BRoI » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:33 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:Why don't you post Kogon's comments on that while you're at it.

Which version: his original, or his revised *two Ding diaries*?
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Pyrrho » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:39 pm

I am not sure what is breaking the layout in this thread. I may have to edit a post to correct the problem...assuming I can figure out what the problem really is.

eta: Hmm. Not breaking in all browsers. Breaking in Chrome for sure. "Further research is needed."

eta II: Okay, narrowed it down to something that only affects Administrators/Moderators. Pretend I wasn't here.
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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Gord » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:26 am

Pretend who wasn't here?
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:18 am

?
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Balmoral95 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:20 am

Gord wrote:Pretend who wasn't here?



"I" isn't self-explanatory?

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:51 pm

There's no I in Phyrro.
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:38 pm

BRoI wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:Why don't you post Kogon's comments on that while you're at it.

Which version: his original, or his revised *two Ding diaries*?

Why not both?

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby BRoI » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:04 pm

Romanov wrote:
2. Sometimes a statement by Dr. Konrad Morgen is quoted in which it is claimed that Dirlewanger ordered to inject young Jewish women with strychnine, then had their corpses cut into small pieces, mixed with horsemeat and boiled into soap. However Morgen was clear in the same statement that it was merely a suspicion (Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews, 3rd. ed., 2003, vol. 3, p. 1032). Later Morgen clarified that they could not find any eyewitness to this event and added (Morgen to Artzt, 13.09.1972, BArch B162/25703, Bl. 173):

It is certain that the then very small Kommando Dirlewanger had no technical equipment at all. The origin of the rumors could also lie in boastful figures of speech.

So there's no "there" there.


Morgen had previously stated that he had a bar of *Dirlewanger soap*

H. Pauer-Studer, J. Velleman, Konrad Morgen, The Conscience of a Nazi Judge wrote:
As Morgen describes to the CIC [American Counter Intelligence Corps] after the war, Dirlewanger arrested Jews for the crime of kosher slaughtering, released those who could pay a large ransom, and then shot the rest. [10] He performed "experiments" on Jewish men and women, having them killed by injection, their flesh mixed with horseflesh, and the mixture turned into soap. Morgen even has a sample, so he tells his interrogators.

10. KMI 30.8.46, pp. 20ff.; 6.12.46, pp. 18ff.; 10.12.47, pp. 2ff. See also KMI, second affidavit of January 28, 1947; and KMM, pp. 4071-8 (English) and 4198-4205 (German).

KMI - Konrad Morgen Interrogations. "Interrogation Records Prepared for War Crimes Proceedings at Nuernberg 1945-1947." US National Archives, Record Group 238, Microfilm 1019, Roll 47.

KMM - "Ministries Case Testimony. Morgen's testimony at the trial of Ernst von Weizsacker et al. before the Nuremberg Military Tribunal. US National Archives, record group 238, microfilm M897. In German and English.
- H. Pauer-Studer, J. Velleman, Konrad Morgen, The Conscience of a Nazi Judge, Springer digital edition, 2015, chapter 6.
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:32 am

Heh. 1) try the original German version of the book; 2) and then think about how many suspected that certain kinds of soap were human.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby BRoI » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:33 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:1) try the original German version of the book;

The English edition is the original, a German translation was published in 2017 with a few revisions etc.
Die englischsprachige Originalausgabe dieses Buches erschien 2015 unter dem Titel Konrad Morgen. The Conscience of a Nazi Judge bei Palgrave Macmillan (London/New York). Der Text wurde für die deutsche Ausgabe überarbeitet und um die theoretische Einleitung ergänzt; auch das Nachwort wurde für die vorliegende Ausgabe erweitert.

https://www.amazon.de/%C2%BBWeil-ich-nun-Gerechtigkeitsfanatiker-bin%C2%AB/dp/3518425994

How does the relevant text differ in the German edition?

Does the lie/mistake that Wiebeck's shitty 1955 German translation of Elonore Hodys' statement is "the German original" [endnote 3 for chapter 17], also feature in the German edition, or have they corrected themselves?

Does the German version also state that Dirlewanger admitted to killing Jews with lethal injections?

H. Pauer-Studer, J. Velleman, Konrad Morgen, The Conscience of a Nazi Judge, endnote 11 for Chapter 6 wrote:
11. A copious file of the case survives, containing mainly documents for the defense, including the recommendation for dismissal. That recommendation confirms that Morgen reported accusations against Dirlewanger, though in the course of a different prosecution (ODD, memo signed Fritz Schmidt, dated October 17, 1942, p. 4). Remarkably, Dirlewanger admitted to the gravest acts, offering justifications rather than denials. He claimed, for example, that he killed Jews by injection because he had been ordered to kill them and reasoned that shooting would ruin their clothes, which would then be useless to his men.

ODD - Oskar Dirlewanger Defense. Documents in defense of Oskar Dirlewanger. Bundesarchiv Berlin-Lichterfelde R58-7633.
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:47 pm

Look it up, lazy git.

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Re: Soaps, lampshades and shrunken heads

Postby Hans » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:44 pm

"In der Pathologie arbeiteten unter Kochs Zeiten Dr. NAUMANN, SS-Ustf., und Dr. LEWE, SS-UStuf. Der Truppenarzt Dr. MÜLLER, SS-OSTUF., kam häufig ins Laboratorium, um dieses zu benutzen. Unter seiner Direktion oder vielleicht auch von ihm selbst wurde ein Lampenschirm aus Menschenhaut angefertigt, welcher dem Kommandanten Koch, sei es für ihn selbst oder seiiner Frau zum Geschenk übergeben wurde. Dieser Vorgang wurde mir von Häftlingen mitgeteilt."


(affidavit of Friedrich Wilhelm [SS paramedic] of 9 July 1945, BArch B 162/805, p. 63)


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