It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2759
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Dear [Salutation][First Name]
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:19 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Roy Moore speaks about his enemies, in particular George Soros:
He is pushing an agenda and his agenda is sexual in nature, his agenda is liberal, and not what Americans need. It’s not our American culture. Soros comes from another world that I don’t identify with. I wish I could face him directly. And I’d tell him the same thing. No matter how much money he’s got, he’s still going to the same place that people who don’t recognize God and morality and accept his salvation are going. And that’s not a good place.



That's a favorite theme among all those fundamentalist, evangelical Republicans. It's no surprise that they are Trump's strongest supporters. They think they KNOW where you and I and all their neighbors are going. They can describe the geography, climate, and population of hell down to the smallest detail, as for example, this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odLJqFHsoUo
"Reserve a part of your wrath ; you have not seen the worst yet. You suppose that this war has been a criminal blunder and an exceptional horror ; you imagine that before long reason will prevail, and all these inferior people that govern the world will be swept aside, and your own party will reform everything and remain always in office. You are mistaken."

George Santayana, "Tipperary" (1918)

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:21 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:In case you didn't have enough to worry about already. Maybe this is the canary in the Wall Street coal mine?

One way to un-heat the economy?

"Why Economists Are Warning That The Trump Tax Plan Will Be An Epic Disaster":
economists and former government officials predicted, the [tax] bill will drive up the federal deficit, shrink and destabilize the health care market, exacerbate already historic income inequality, and pressure Congress to make deep cuts to the social safety net and government programs. . . . Both conservative and moderate economists told TPM that they have seen nothing to support the lawmaker’s assertions, and called the bill “economically irresponsible.” . . .

“They know they would be decimated next fall if they did not deliver some form of tax reform,” [Republican staffer Dan Scandling] said. “So they’re saying, ‘Trust us and it’ll work out in the end.'”

But the gamble may not pay off as expected. If the tax bill becomes law, its impact will hit people across the country just a few months before they go to the polls.

“A lot of people will discover their home deduction is not allowed anymore, that their state and local income tax isn’t deductible anymore, and they’re going to be angry,” predicted [Stan] Collender [former congressional budget committee staffer]. “Plus, it’s almost certain that interest rates are going to rise. Homes will be more expensive. Loans will be more expensive. Car sales will go down. So I think Republicans are really going to pay a political price.”

Faster, pussycat, kill, kill?

"'Holy crap': Experts find tax plan riddled with glitches: Some of the provisions could be easily gamed, tax lawyers say.":
“The more you read, the more you go, ‘Holy crap, what’s this?'” said Greg Jenner, a former top tax official in George W. Bush’s Treasury Department. “We will be dealing with unintended consequences for months to come because the bill is moving too fast.” . . .

It’s not possible for lawmakers to foresee every eventuality, and it’s hardly unusual for there to be mistakes Congress later corrects.

What is unusual is the sheer scope of the legislation now before lawmakers, and the speed with which it’s moving through Congress. Republicans are trying to muscle the plan through the Capitol before special interest groups can mobilize opposition. . . .

That breakneck pace means there hasn’t been much time for feedback from experts outside the Capitol. . . .

Trump wants negotiators to wrap up their work even before a Dec. 22 deadline they’ve set for themselves. “We want it to proceed as quickly as possible,” Marc Short, the administration’s congressional liaison, said Tuesday.

What’s more, some of the fixes could be expensive, potentially throwing lawmakers’ budget numbers out of whack. . . .

“It’s crazy,” said one Republican lobbyist. “I don’t think anyone could explain it, let alone comply with it” by Jan. 1.

Now, if there are enough of errors in the right direction in the eventual conference bill, will that serendipitously nullify the economic "epic disaster" feared in the first link above?
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:53 pm

Just as surprisingly, the Pope remains Catholic: "Once a populist, Trump governs like a conservative Republican": a government of the Pence, by the Pence, for the Trumps (& cohort).
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2759
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Dear [Salutation][First Name]
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:56 pm

My guess is that 99% of the "unintended consequences" of this tax bill will be loopholes wealthy hedge fund managers can drive a coach and horses through.
"Reserve a part of your wrath ; you have not seen the worst yet. You suppose that this war has been a criminal blunder and an exceptional horror ; you imagine that before long reason will prevail, and all these inferior people that govern the world will be swept aside, and your own party will reform everything and remain always in office. You are mistaken."

George Santayana, "Tipperary" (1918)

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2759
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Dear [Salutation][First Name]
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:00 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:In case you didn't have enough to worry about already. Maybe this is the canary in the Wall Street coal mine?

One way to un-heat the economy?

"Why Economists Are Warning That The Trump Tax Plan Will Be An Epic Disaster":
economists and former government officials predicted, the [tax] bill will drive up the federal deficit, shrink and destabilize the health care market, exacerbate already historic income inequality, and pressure Congress to make deep cuts to the social safety net and government programs. . . . Both conservative and moderate economists told TPM that they have seen nothing to support the lawmaker’s assertions, and called the bill “economically irresponsible.” . . .



Missing link
"Reserve a part of your wrath ; you have not seen the worst yet. You suppose that this war has been a criminal blunder and an exceptional horror ; you imagine that before long reason will prevail, and all these inferior people that govern the world will be swept aside, and your own party will reform everything and remain always in office. You are mistaken."

George Santayana, "Tipperary" (1918)

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:03 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:My guess is that 99% of the "unintended consequences" of this tax bill will be loopholes wealthy hedge fund managers can drive a coach and horses through.

One business the legislation will help: tax accountants and financial planners. :)
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:05 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:In case you didn't have enough to worry about already. Maybe this is the canary in the Wall Street coal mine?

One way to un-heat the economy?

"Why Economists Are Warning That The Trump Tax Plan Will Be An Epic Disaster":
economists and former government officials predicted, the [tax] bill will drive up the federal deficit, shrink and destabilize the health care market, exacerbate already historic income inequality, and pressure Congress to make deep cuts to the social safety net and government programs. . . . Both conservative and moderate economists told TPM that they have seen nothing to support the lawmaker’s assertions, and called the bill “economically irresponsible.” . . .



Missing link

Danke, I slept too much last night, now I'm tired. If I sleep more than 5 or so hours, I am groggy the next morning :) (when I read "missing link," I thought for a second that you'd had an evolutionary breakthrough! LOL)
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:10 pm

Time runner-up for Person of the Year: DJT
Time winner for Person of the Year: #MeToo movement
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:13 pm

Jerusalem: "The Senate’s top Democrat, Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, told THE WEEKLY STANDARD Tuesday that he had advised Trump to declare Jerusalem as Israel’s 'undivided' capital."

Does Trump have a Saudi pledge to try forcing Palestinian acceptance of this measure as part of a we're-gonna-get-Iran strategy?
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6452
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:00 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Jerusalem: "The Senate’s top Democrat, Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, told THE WEEKLY STANDARD Tuesday that he had advised Trump to declare Jerusalem as Israel’s 'undivided' capital."


Chuck needs to retire right now for “advising” Trump to do something really stupid.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:22 pm

Duh.

New Al Franken Accuser Says He Tried To Forcibly Kiss Her In 2006

Conway Defends Support For Moore By Questioning Why Franken Still In Senate

And this bit of ugliness: Kihuen Won’t Resign, Says Dem Leaders Knew Of Allegations During Campaign

What are the Democrats thinking? Plus there is reaction from the CBC that what white guys in politics (Franken, Trump, Moore, Kihuen, Farenthold) more or less get away with, black guys (Conyers) can't.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6452
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:34 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Duh.

New Al Franken Accuser Says He Tried To Forcibly Kiss Her In 2006

Conway Defends Support For Moore By Questioning Why Franken Still In Senate

And this bit of ugliness: Kihuen Won’t Resign, Says Dem Leaders Knew Of Allegations During Campaign

What are the Democrats thinking? Plus there is reaction from the CBC that what white guys in politics (Franken, Trump, Moore, Kihuen, Farenthold) more or less get away with, black guys (Conyers) can't.


On a related note:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/05/politics/jeff-flake-writes-doug-jones-check/index.html

All of these guys need to get the hell out. You can’t call yourself the party that supports women’s rights and equality while grabbing them by the ass.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:10 pm

Where the hell was Flake when it mattered? A hundred bucks from a US Senator! LOL
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6452
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:13 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Where the hell was Flake when it mattered? A hundred bucks from a US Senator! LOL



It’s the thought that counts, I guess. ‘Tis the season to give....

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:20 pm

LOL
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:28 pm

"Wave Of Female Democratic Senators Call On Franken To Resign"

Schumer, IMO, not having a good day: "Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer’s (D-NY) office did not immediately return TPM’s request for comment."

(I forgot to mention on the above list of white men who haven't suffered the consequences due them for sexual harassment/assault - the Big Dog, of course.)
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:50 pm

Bannon on Romney, last night: “You hid behind your religion. You went to France to be a missionary while guys were dying in rice paddies in Vietnam. Do not talk to me about honor and integrity."

Bannon's guy hid behind his nanny, which is, I guess, preferable.

full disclosure: I myself "hid," sort of. I turned in my draft card as part of a joint action and stated that the bastards could prosecute me, if they so desired. I opposed the war and was not going to fight in it. I was "privileged" to be young enough to be turned off by that war before winding up there, as so many people I knew wound up.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2759
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Dear [Salutation][First Name]
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:51 pm

A wave indeed. When I sat down at the bar and ordered a beer and sandwich, it was four women. By the time I finished lunch, it was eight women and two men. Franken needs to get out IMMEDIATELY. Even from the crass political point of view, his departure and Trump's appearance on the Alabama border (Pensacola, FL) on Friday, which will bring in a ton of Moore supporters, is all to the good, and might replace an outgoing Democrat with an incoming Democrat. And it's very likely Franken's replacement will also be a Democrat.
"Reserve a part of your wrath ; you have not seen the worst yet. You suppose that this war has been a criminal blunder and an exceptional horror ; you imagine that before long reason will prevail, and all these inferior people that govern the world will be swept aside, and your own party will reform everything and remain always in office. You are mistaken."

George Santayana, "Tipperary" (1918)

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2759
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Dear [Salutation][First Name]
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:53 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Bannon on Romney, last night: “You hid behind your religion. You went to France to be a missionary while guys were dying in rice paddies in Vietnam. Do not talk to me about honor and integrity."

Bannon's guy hid behind his nanny, which is, I guess, preferable.

full disclosure: I myself "hid," sort of. I turned in my draft card as part of a joint action and stated that the bastards could prosecute me, if they so desired. I opposed the war and was not going to fight in it. I was "privileged" to be young enough to be turned off by that war before winding up there, as so many people I knew wound up.


I'd be proud if I had done what you did. I was old enough to be undraftable by the time things really heated up. I kept my draft board informed of where I was and what I was doing. They kept me at 2-S and then 2-A until the draft ended, by which time I was past 30 anyway.
"Reserve a part of your wrath ; you have not seen the worst yet. You suppose that this war has been a criminal blunder and an exceptional horror ; you imagine that before long reason will prevail, and all these inferior people that govern the world will be swept aside, and your own party will reform everything and remain always in office. You are mistaken."

George Santayana, "Tipperary" (1918)

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2759
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Dear [Salutation][First Name]
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:57 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Jerusalem: "The Senate’s top Democrat, Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, told THE WEEKLY STANDARD Tuesday that he had advised Trump to declare Jerusalem as Israel’s 'undivided' capital."

Does Trump have a Saudi pledge to try forcing Palestinian acceptance of this measure as part of a we're-gonna-get-Iran strategy?



We'll know in a few minutes. I just saw Trump addressing his cabinet, as usual damning Democrats right and left as "a danger to the country" and boasting about all the winning that is due to him and him alone. Well, he who takes credit for the sunshine is going to get blamed for the rain. I only hope he is still coherent enough to recognize the disaster he has brought about when it finally occurs. (Chances of that are slim. His grasp of reality has been tenuous for years.)

Word is, Susan Collins is facing the wrath of Maine voters for her vote on the tax bill. I wonder if she'll reverse herself and kill off the reconciled bill. (Just an idle dream. I mean, she got promises from Mitch McConnell, and we all know they are as good as gold; you can take them to the bank.)
"Reserve a part of your wrath ; you have not seen the worst yet. You suppose that this war has been a criminal blunder and an exceptional horror ; you imagine that before long reason will prevail, and all these inferior people that govern the world will be swept aside, and your own party will reform everything and remain always in office. You are mistaken."

George Santayana, "Tipperary" (1918)

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:18 pm

Mitch "forgot" to clear it with Paul - and Susan "forgot" to ask if Paul's on board: he's not, she knew he wouldn't be, and she went ahead and did the Republican thing.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11148
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:09 pm

Just heard the last two minutes of Trump on RECOGNIZING Jerusalem as the capitol of Israel. Everything he said was reasonable and totally on point. There are lot's of PRO'S in letting the truth and REALITY guide all your affairs, including foreign affairs even if they are cause for "uproar." IE: do you use reality and truth as your guide, or the shrieks and howls of the nut cases?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6452
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:26 pm

Sure, why not? Who cares if no one else thinks it’s the right idea?

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/06/politics/president-donald-trump-jerusalem/index.html

My favorite bit is this:
Trump said his order to the State Department will begin the process of hiring architects and building contractors to build an embassy that will be a "a magnificent tribute to peace."


I’m sure that the Palestinians and other Muslims will stare in awe at the magnificent tribute to peace.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11148
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:39 pm

I agree the process is not a tribute to peace, but it might be an obstacle overcome on the way to peace....with various skirmishes, terrorist attacks, and wars inbetween.

Turns out maybe the last two minutes I heard was the whole speech? It starts with what I agree with and posted above: ""Today, we finally acknowledge the obvious: that Jerusalem is Israel's capital. This is nothing more or less than a recognition of reality. It is also the right thing to do," Trump said from the White House's Diplomatic Reception Room."

I assume Everyone agrees Jerusalem is the capitOL of Israel? What role does the truth/reality have in international affairs? NOTE: This notion of reality doesn't address what is the actual issue: what role/how will Jerusalem also be the capitol of Palestine should it ever be formed? Or....if looking at it pared down to religions: the "third most important Islamic site"....and why have Christians lost a seat at this table????????

This mostly goes back to my proposed consideration of a solution to the Palestine/Israel conflict: the longer the PLO waits looking for some advantage, the more they lose by HISTORY MOVING ON.

No move is good if the follow up is no good, but this move in a vacuum is totally appropriate.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:33 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Sure, why not? Who cares if no one else thinks it’s the right idea?

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/06/politics/president-donald-trump-jerusalem/index.html

My favorite bit is this:
Trump said his order to the State Department will begin the process of hiring architects and building contractors to build an embassy that will be a "a magnificent tribute to peace."


I’m sure that the Palestinians and other Muslims will stare in awe at the magnificent tribute to peace.

Josh Marshall is astounded by the CNN talking heads trying to wrestle all this into a move aimed at helping the peace process.

Personally, last night I was struck by commentators saying, "Well it's a fact, that's where the seat of government is" - as though symbolism, nuance, delicate balances are irrelevant in diplomacy and world affairs - and only the crudest, most reductionist view of "reality" matters. In this instance, of course.

Josh sees Trump's move as aimed at nihilists and the uninformed, the sort of people who fall for this: "The idea that you would just do something like this purely to gratify the Republican base, spurred by the President’s boredom and desire to upset people. That’s all unthinkable. Yet that is pretty clearly what is going on here."

And, OTOH, right-wing Zionists: "I would say that this is 90% political and a matter of satisfying the President’s need for an act of self-assertion. The other 10% does slightly fall into the category of forward-moving gambits. It’s one you need to be exposed to the more extreme right-wing variants of Zionism to be familiar with."

He then describes how right-wing Zionists see the situation ("The path to peace is to make it totally clear, with established facts, that the Palestinians will essentially get nothing") and concludes,
There are needless to say, a number of problems with this theory. But you hear it a lot as a sort of guiding theory of the case on the Zionist right. I would count it as 35% profoundly misguided idea, 65% mendacious self-assertion. That’s probably what the top Trumpers are telling themselves.

I would be remiss if I didn’t note the obvious. Not only did the President put the region’s issues in the hands of his neophyte son-in-law. He put it in the hands of a settlement activist. Obviously nothing possibly good can come of this.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11148
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:50 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote: Personally, last night I was struck by commentators saying, "Well it's a fact, that's where the seat of government is" - as though symbolism, nuance, delicate balances are irrelevant in diplomacy and world affairs - and only the crudest, most reductionist view of "reality" matters. In this instance, of course.
Nice spin. Reality is reality.........you can call it crude and reductionist every time otherwise you aren't dealing with reality. simple question: is Jerasulem the capitol of Israel?......or not???? In the same vein, does symbolism, nuance, and diplomacy all run in one direction without any pros or cons against any given notion? Or is the basic idea presented here someone has an absolute Truth all figured out? A Magic 8-Ball for future developments. Silly. HISTORY MOVES ON..... deals with whatever happens thereafter WHICH NO ONE KNOWS.


Statistical Mechanic wrote: Josh sees Trump's move as aimed at nihilists and the uninformed, the sort of people who fall for this: "The idea that you would just do something like this purely to gratify the Republican base, spurred by the President’s boredom and desire to upset people. That’s all unthinkable. Yet that is pretty clearly what is going on here."
Yeah, most likely an artifact of his personality rather than an intentional act to move History along. There are pros and cons to most decisions. You make them and try to maximize one and minimize the other. Fifty years of not accepting the crude reductionist truth of a situation might be a call to some to try something different? Unless one is a dullard for one and only one set of facts and assumed outcomes.

We can all do better. I hear the Prime Minister of Israel agrees?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:52 pm

It sounds like one idea DJT is mulling is to have the House pass a particularly odious funding bill, incorporating the demands of the Freedom Caucus, to, in his view, force Senate Democrats to filibuster the measure. In Trump's latest rumination, he can then position a government shutdown Friday to Republican advantage. A shutdown, DJT now says, “could happen,” because the Democrats “are looking at shutting down” the government on immigration policy (the Dems are actually divided on this, and the GOP controls House, Senate and WH):
The Democrats are really looking at something that is very dangerous to our country. They want to have illegal immigrants, in many case, people that we don’t want in our country. They want to have illegal immigrants pouring into our country, bringing with them crime, tremendous amounts of crime. We don’t want to have that.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:59 pm

Quinnipiac poll released today (https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-de ... aseID=2505): "Almost half of American women, 47 percent, say they've been sexually assaulted, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today."
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:10 pm

Paul Ryan remembers the deficit. On talk radio, today: "We're going to have to get back next year at entitlement reform, which is how you tackle the debt and the deficit. . . . Frankly, it's the health care entitlements that are the big drivers of our debt, so we spend more time on the health care entitlements -- because that's really where the problem lies, fiscally speaking."

Ryan bragged that he's having success convincing Trump to go after Medicare, despite Trump's campaign pledge on Medicare and Social Security: "I think the president is understanding that choice and competition works everywhere in health care, especially in Medicare. . . . This has been my big thing for many, many years. I think it's the biggest entitlement we've got to reform."

I'm beginning to feel like I did when I used to gamble a lot. Sometimes, on checking in to a casino hotel, I'd ask if they really wanted me to endure a protracted slaughter at the tables - and whether I might not just write them a check there and then for what they were going to take from me. It's that way with Trump and his Republicans: just get it the {!#%@} over with, stop playing games these votes, with language (current recipients, save these programs, choice and competition), etc.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2759
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Dear [Salutation][First Name]
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:15 pm

Well, now we'll just have to wait and see what the consequences are of Trump's actually delivering on a promise all his predecessors made and broke. This is only possible when the President knows no more about diplomacy and international relations than a 6-year-old who was forced to repeat kindergarten. I admit, I don't know how this will "sugar off," as they say here in Vermont. It looks to me like a very unimportant issue intrinsically. What makes it important is the amount of anger and ethnic hatred that is likely to break out.

It also doesn't help that Trump has completely ignored his "good friend" Macron and has mortally offended and humiliated Erdogan, who wasn't crazy about the US to begin with and is head of a country that could wreak havoc on US interests in the Middle East if provoked.
"Reserve a part of your wrath ; you have not seen the worst yet. You suppose that this war has been a criminal blunder and an exceptional horror ; you imagine that before long reason will prevail, and all these inferior people that govern the world will be swept aside, and your own party will reform everything and remain always in office. You are mistaken."

George Santayana, "Tipperary" (1918)

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2759
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Dear [Salutation][First Name]
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:19 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Paul Ryan remembers the deficit. On talk radio, today: "We're going to have to get back next year at entitlement reform, which is how you tackle the debt and the deficit. . . . Frankly, it's the health care entitlements that are the big drivers of our debt, so we spend more time on the health care entitlements -- because that's really where the problem lies, fiscally speaking."

Ryan bragged that he's having success convincing Trump to go after Medicare, despite Trump's campaign pledge on Medicare and Social Security: "I think the president is understanding that choice and competition works everywhere in health care, especially in Medicare. . . . This has been my big thing for many, many years. I think it's the biggest entitlement we've got to reform."

I'm beginning to feel like I did when I used to gamble a lot. Sometimes, on checking in to a casino hotel, I'd ask if they really wanted me to endure a protracted slaughter at the tables - and whether I might not just write them a check there and then for what they were going to take from me. It's that way with Trump and his Republicans: just get it the {!#%@} over with, stop playing games these votes, with language (current recipients, save these programs, choice and competition), etc.


Makes me feel the absence of a viable Democratic Party even more strongly. This would be pure electoral gold for any party who knew how to use it. Ryan just kissed off 90% of the votes from pensioners. In conservative states like Arizona, they can change the place from red to blue in one day, and they will do so if Ryan continues on his political suicide mission.

But I agree, we need to get rid of those entitlements, especially the no-bid contracts for rebuilding the places we bomb to smithereens.
"Reserve a part of your wrath ; you have not seen the worst yet. You suppose that this war has been a criminal blunder and an exceptional horror ; you imagine that before long reason will prevail, and all these inferior people that govern the world will be swept aside, and your own party will reform everything and remain always in office. You are mistaken."

George Santayana, "Tipperary" (1918)

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2759
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Dear [Salutation][First Name]
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:22 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:It sounds like one idea DJT is mulling is to have the House pass a particularly odious funding bill, incorporating the demands of the Freedom Caucus, to, in his view, force Senate Democrats to filibuster the measure. In Trump's latest rumination, he can then position a government shutdown Friday to Republican advantage. A shutdown, DJT now says, “could happen,” because the Democrats “are looking at shutting down” the government on immigration policy (the Dems are actually divided on this, and the GOP controls House, Senate and WH):
The Democrats are really looking at something that is very dangerous to our country. They want to have illegal immigrants, in many case, people that we don’t want in our country. They want to have illegal immigrants pouring into our country, bringing with them crime, tremendous amounts of crime. We don’t want to have that.


I suppose the public is too stupid to understand that immigration law has NOTHING AT ALL to do with funding the government, and if Trump wants to avoid a shutdown, all he has to do is present a funding bill that confines itself to funding. Will Schumer be able to make that case? I doubt it. He still hasn't called on Franken to resign, and he's been urging the recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel for years.
"Reserve a part of your wrath ; you have not seen the worst yet. You suppose that this war has been a criminal blunder and an exceptional horror ; you imagine that before long reason will prevail, and all these inferior people that govern the world will be swept aside, and your own party will reform everything and remain always in office. You are mistaken."

George Santayana, "Tipperary" (1918)

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:32 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:Well, now we'll just have to wait and see what the consequences are of Trump's actually delivering on a promise all his predecessors made and broke. This is only possible when the President knows no more about diplomacy and international relations than a 6-year-old who was forced to repeat kindergarten. I admit, I don't know how this will "sugar off," as they say here in Vermont. It looks to me like a very unimportant issue intrinsically. What makes it important is the amount of anger and ethnic hatred that is likely to break out.

It also doesn't help that Trump has completely ignored his "good friend" Macron and has mortally offended and humiliated Erdogan, who wasn't crazy about the US to begin with and is head of a country that could wreak havoc on US interests in the Middle East if provoked.

BBC has a helpful roundup of initial reactions: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42250340

One other problem with the reductionist facts-is-facts apologetic-logic is that it assumes somehow that all parties see the facts the same way and will "hear" Trump's act in the same manner. Clearly, they don't (it's not for nothing that the State Dept has issued travel warnings in the wake of Trump's speech for Italy, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Belarus, Turkey, Egypt, Morocco, London, and Jordan). That said, I don't think this move is apocalyptic, as some of the responses seem to go, in that the situation is already quite broken and Jared's peace process is, too.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:36 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:we need to get rid of those entitlements, especially the no-bid contracts for rebuilding the places we bomb to smithereens.

Good grief, man, don't be daft. How will we as a society survive without intelligent, targeted assistance for the needy?
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:25 pm

Trump & Friends, or Only the Best Outfits

Image
Jared Kushner - peace in our time

Image
Working class hero

Image
Truckin'

Image
Judge Roy Moore - "It's just like all of your leathers darling, they don't scare me, I know it's really only leatherette"

Image
Rudy!

Image
Kellyanne Conway - "To have ambition was my ambition"

Image
Ryan Zinke - adult in the room

Image
Rob Goldstone - the meeting planner
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19817
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:45 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:we need to get rid of those entitlements, especially the no-bid contracts for rebuilding the places we bomb to smithereens.

Good grief, man, don't be daft. How will we as a society survive without intelligent, targeted assistance for the nseedy greedy?

ftfy
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

Balmoral95
Regular Poster
Posts: 963
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Balmoral95 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:53 pm


User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:09 am

more on Bannon's speech last night, on Romney:
By the way, Mitt, while we're on the subject of honor an integrity, you avoided service, brother. Mitt, here's how it is, brother: The college deferments, we can debate that - but you hid behind your religion. You went to France to be a missionary while guys were dying in rice paddies in Vietnam.

You ran for commander in chief and had five sons - not one day of service in Afghanistan or Iraq. We have 7,000 dead and 52,000 casualties, and where were the Romneys during those wars? You want to talk about honor and integrity, brother, bring it. Bring it down here to Alabama.

Judge Moore has more honor and integrity in a pinkie finger than your family has in its whole DNA.

news flash: Bannon (with Trump) is winning this fight, Moore will win the Alabama special election, the pedophile will be in the Senate, and Al Franken is going home.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

Balmoral95
Regular Poster
Posts: 963
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Balmoral95 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:20 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:more on Bannon's speech last night, on Romney:
By the way, Mitt, while we're on the subject of honor an integrity, you avoided service, brother. Mitt, here's how it is, brother: The college deferments, we can debate that - but you hid behind your religion. You went to France to be a missionary while guys were dying in rice paddies in Vietnam.

You ran for commander in chief and had five sons - not one day of service in Afghanistan or Iraq. We have 7,000 dead and 52,000 casualties, and where were the Romneys during those wars? You want to talk about honor and integrity, brother, bring it. Bring it down here to Alabama.

Judge Moore has more honor and integrity in a pinkie finger than your family has in its whole DNA.

news flash: Bannon (with Trump) is winning this fight, Moore will win the Alabama special election, the pedophile will be in the Senate, and Al Franken is going home.


People have said Bannon is real bright. I seriously can't figure out why.

User avatar
OlegTheBatty
True Skeptic
Posts: 10535
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:35 pm
Custom Title: Uppity Atheist

Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby OlegTheBatty » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:44 am

I hope he does.

It's more than about time.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero


Return to “Holocaust Denial”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Jeffk 1970 and 2 guests