Nazi Granny

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6452
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Nazi Granny

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:59 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:Aren't these concepts made real . . . in the American constitution?

Except, notably, for women, native American Indians, and unfree blacks. But, on the other hand, the tendency or dynamic was indeed somewhat already present in that document.


(great, very instructive reply, thanks much - I read the piece 1-1/2 times and your reply 2x!)



Yeah, that took a Civil War and a few other course corrections along the way to fix some of the “issues” in the original Constitution.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Nazi Granny

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:54 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:Aren't these concepts made real . . . in the American constitution?

Except, notably, for women, native American Indians, and unfree blacks. But, on the other hand, the tendency or dynamic was indeed somewhat already present in that document.


(great, very instructive reply, thanks much - I read the piece 1-1/2 times and your reply 2x!)



Yeah, that took a Civil War and a few other course corrections along the way to fix some of the “issues” in the original Constitution.

Not until the 1960s, despite the post-Civil War amendments and Reconstruction, was formal, legal discrimination seriously addressed. That's a century after the Civil War. For decades, the Republicans have been IMO trying to roll much of the 1960s progress back. Yes, I am saying that the Republican party has a white supremacist thrust and adding that one reason neo-Nazi and new Confederate groups don't do better in the US is that they already have a party working for the cause - and more and more so and increasingly openly.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Nazi Granny

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:58 pm

. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6452
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Nazi Granny

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:19 pm



That’s a hard one.........

Perhaps by posting her personal information and encouraging his little followers to contact her this crossed the line. Based upon who posts there and how they do it, it’s not exactly secret how the little trolls would react.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Nazi Granny

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:51 pm

My take: this was organized, intentional harassment and does not fall under speech protection. I actually don’t filing it a close call. The campaign was not meant as participation in the public discourse but as a means of punishment of an individual. Throw the book at them.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6452
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Nazi Granny

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:26 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:My take: this was organized, intentional harassment and does not fall under speech protection. I actually don’t filing it a close call. The campaign was not meant as participation in the public discourse but as a means of punishment of an individual. Throw the book at them.



At the very least the history of Andrew Anglin and his troll army work against him.

He did the same after the election, sending his trolls to Twitter to find and harass Clinton supporters. The stated intent was to harass them into committing suicide. He also called for them to harass Muslim women:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2016/11/10/white-supremacists-urge-trolling-clinton-supporters-suicide/93617792/

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Nazi Granny

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:32 pm

Thanks for that link, good memory!
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Nazi Granny

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:46 pm

A detail on the Whitefish case reported in WaPo: Montana's state supreme court has held in the past “that free speech does not include the right to cause substantial emotional distress by harassment or intimidation.” A state supreme court ruling would not supersede the US Supreme Court, which has ruled (e.g., the Westboro church decision in 2011 being the most recent such ruling I know of) that hateful speech is protected, if the case made it that far, but Gersh's suit against Anglin et al alleging violations of the Montana Anti-Intimidation Act is in a lower court, US District Court in Montana.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1583
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Nazi Granny

Postby Balsamo » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:22 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:Aren't these concepts made real . . . in the American constitution?

Except, notably, for women, native American Indians, and unfree blacks. But, on the other hand, the tendency or dynamic was indeed somewhat already present in that document.


(great, very instructive reply, thanks much - I read the piece 1-1/2 times and your reply 2x!)


Well, i do suspect that some people were also excluded from all those democratic activities in Antic Athens as well...Even this democracy was not set up in one day, it took many crisis and the necessary social evolution. I am speaking from memory and Kleon is more than welcomed to correct the little i know / remember.

PS: Great post, Kleon, it is a privilege for us to have you on this forum.
Made me understood the french expression " l'idiot du village" - wrongly understood today as the fact that every village had its cretin, while the real sense was that every village had its grumpy character who isolated himself from the community...

So yes, Democracy was not build in one day, like as a result of some philosophers meeting. There were at least two centuries between Dracon and Pericles. Just like ours today, social structures were taken into consideration as long as they existed, the first democracy was more or less reserved (or at least the highest charges) to the former Aristocrats, a class that would be open progressively to new comers, but a ratio Wealth/influence was still very present...The more you paid taxes the more you voice counted...Anyway, what i mean here is that it was a democracy for its citizens, the citizenship was restricted...There were still Slaves who had no right at all...Women were also excluded from any political activities, like foreigners living in the city. For most foreigners, access to citizenship was out of question, except for foreign "Greeks".

Just to say, it was not "panacea" neither.

And of course, the system will bit by bit go bankrupt, politically and morally, democrats becoming demagogues... ;)

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Nazi Granny

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:42 pm

The question was whether the Constitution (and English bill of rights) didn't make "real" a democracy in which "everyone is a part of the debate ('isegoria'), and when he can speak about everything ('parrhesia')." The answer is no. The Constitution has a logic - but that logic was not played out in the Constitution, which notably distinguished between free and enslaved.

Thinking about elections and representation: Southern states wanted people held in slavery to be considered property - except for purposes of representation, and a compromise was struck on this. Nor did the Constitution define who could vote but left that up to states, which generally permitted during the early republic only free white male property owners to vote. At some points in the early republic immigrants were not considered white and not extended citizenship rights. American Indians didn't gain citizenship until the 1920s (I think!). IIRC a few states did allow freed blacks to vote in the early years of the republic and gradually through the first half of the 19th century, especially the 1820s and 1830s, the property requirement was abolished so that most white men could vote in most if not all states by the time of the Civil War.

Amendments to the Constitution have tended to extend protections in the area of suffrage in the direction of "everyone": 1870 ("race, color or previous condition of servitude"), 1920 (women), in the 1960s (poll tax and literacy requirements). Etc. But this expansion was far from uncontested or linear.

The Constitution is a contested document, and remains so. My post meant to put the document into perspective and to remind us not to overplay what it ensures ("made real"). The making real is a (continuing) process.

Democracy can be real only when everyone is a part of the debate ('isegoria'), and when he can speak about everything ('parrhesia'). Aren't these concepts made real in the English Bill of Rights of the 17th century and in the American constitution?
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11148
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Nazi Granny

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:56 pm

Missing or challenging Third element of Democracy Being Real might be for the voter to be educated/informed? The unintended consequence of Internet Medica Communities and consolidation of Media outlets is people choosing what facts make up their consideration, ie: not educated or informed.

A real challenge.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1583
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Nazi Granny

Postby Balsamo » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:01 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:The question was whether the Constitution (and English bill of rights) didn't make "real" a democracy in which "everyone is a part of the debate ('isegoria'), and when he can speak about everything ('parrhesia')." The answer is no. The Constitution has a logic - but that logic was not played out in the Constitution, which notably distinguished between free and enslaved.

Thinking about elections and representation: Southern states wanted people held in slavery to be considered property - except for purposes of representation, and a compromise was struck on this. Nor did the Constitution define who could vote but left that up to states, which generally permitted during the early republic only free white male property owners to vote. IIRC a few states did allow freed blacks to vote and gradually through the first half of the 19th century the property requirement was abolished in most if not all states.

Amendments to the Constitution moved, on suffrage, protections in the direction of "everyone": 1870 ("race, color or previous condition of servitude"), 1920 (women), in the 1960s (poll tax and literacy requirements). Etc.

Democracy can be real only when everyone is a part of the debate ('isegoria'), and when he can speak about everything ('parrhesia'). Aren't these concepts made real in the English Bill of Rights of the 17th century and in the American constitution?


Understood the question, Stat, and to your last post, i added that Greek "isegoria" was also limited in Athen even at the times when democracy was at the highest level, to its citizens, and that citizenship, if it finally ceased to be limited to the wealthy, therefore at the end, open to the poor, it still excluded Slaves, Women and foreigners (a substantial part of the population)...I also pointed out, with sarcasm, that once really open to the poor, the system kind of went out of control - aka the Socrates trial - and turned into a system called demagogic perversion by philosophers like Platon...

If my memories are good (which is not obvious) Socrates was sentenced to death for something like "blasphemy" or a crime of that like...

Now, on a global stance, the Bill of Rights did not turned Britain into a "great democracy" but conceded to the citizens some of the fundamental freedoms, but that has nothing to do with the political regime which was still a monarchy with a powerful "House of Lords", a citizenship restricted to people with some wealth.

The US constitution is probably the most democratic text out there on its principles, then of course comes the issue on who are to be concerned by it.

The same goes with the french "declaration of Human rights" 1789, but if principles are essential, a democracy to succeed the best it can needs its rulers to profoundly adhere to those principles, which is what failed by 1792...

So, i will agree that - on paper and theoretically - the USA today are probably the most democratic State in the world...Still, in my taste, there is some missing elements... ;) , but at least, you have the basis, all you need actually is a leader who would be sincerely close to the theories expressed.

But, is a perfect democracy even achievable?

User avatar
Kleon_I XYZ Contagion
Poster
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Nazi Granny

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:21 am

Balsamo wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:Aren't these concepts made real . . . in the American constitution?

Except, notably, for women, native American Indians, and unfree blacks. But, on the other hand, the tendency or dynamic was indeed somewhat already present in that document.


(great, very instructive reply, thanks much - I read the piece 1-1/2 times and your reply 2x!)


Well, i do suspect that some people were also excluded from all those democratic activities in Antic Athens as well...Even this democracy was not set up in one day, it took many crisis and the necessary social evolution. I am speaking from memory and Kleon is more than welcomed to correct the little i know / remember.


Yes, of course. All the above were for the 'citizens'. There were slaves, and in some cases and cities and periods, there were a kind of a mid-situation, but this stratification has nothing to do with racism, like in the US case, if you were born a black, you would be subhuman forever.

It was a little different, and it had to do with a number of factors, not only the amount of the taxes one could pay but also fulfilling the three basic criteria, unity, independence and self-sufficiency of the homeland:

After the 5th BC century the social stratification in Athens was like that: citizens, metoikoi and slaves. Only citizens have political rights. Metoikoi were, let's say, a kind of immigrants or inhabitants that were foreigners who lived in Athens as craftsmen and traders and did not have the right to own land. These three categories were not social classes but legal categories. An Athenian who lost his political rights was made a metoikos. A metoikos who could not pay his debts became a slave. A liberated slave could became a metoikos. A metoikos who could make it well could become a citizen in some cases.

A similar strange situation was the women situation: Women, of course, did not have political rights. But the daughters of the citizens were inherited the Athenian citizenship of their parents and transmitted to their male children after a legal marriage with an Athenian citizen.

There was also the military case: A soldier or a navy-man could gain full political rights if he fought well in some wars and if he contributed in the victories against the Persians. That is, because heroic soldiers fulfilled the basic criterion of defending the independence of the homeland as well as a citizen. (The other two criteria were unity and self-sufficiency of the homeland, besides autonomy).

And during the centuries, the direction of the society was to be more and more democratic, with today's meaning
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

User avatar
Kleon_I XYZ Contagion
Poster
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Nazi Granny

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:39 am

Balsamo wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:The question was whether the Constitution (and English bill of rights) didn't make "real" a democracy in which "everyone is a part of the debate ('isegoria'), and when he can speak about everything ('parrhesia')." The answer is no. The Constitution has a logic - but that logic was not played out in the Constitution, which notably distinguished between free and enslaved.

Thinking about elections and representation: Southern states wanted people held in slavery to be considered property - except for purposes of representation, and a compromise was struck on this. Nor did the Constitution define who could vote but left that up to states, which generally permitted during the early republic only free white male property owners to vote. IIRC a few states did allow freed blacks to vote and gradually through the first half of the 19th century the property requirement was abolished in most if not all states.

Amendments to the Constitution moved, on suffrage, protections in the direction of "everyone": 1870 ("race, color or previous condition of servitude"), 1920 (women), in the 1960s (poll tax and literacy requirements). Etc.

Democracy can be real only when everyone is a part of the debate ('isegoria'), and when he can speak about everything ('parrhesia'). Aren't these concepts made real in the English Bill of Rights of the 17th century and in the American constitution?


Understood the question, Stat, and to your last post, i added that Greek "isegoria" was also limited in Athen even at the times when democracy was at the highest level, to its citizens, and that citizenship, if it finally ceased to be limited to the wealthy, therefore at the end, open to the poor, it still excluded Slaves, Women and foreigners (a substantial part of the population)...I also pointed out, with sarcasm, that once really open to the poor, the system kind of went out of control - aka the Socrates trial - and turned into a system called demagogic perversion by philosophers like Platon...

If my memories are good (which is not obvious) Socrates was sentenced to death for something like "blasphemy" or a crime of that like...

Now, on a global stance, the Bill of Rights did not turned Britain into a "great democracy" but conceded to the citizens some of the fundamental freedoms, but that has nothing to do with the political regime which was still a monarchy with a powerful "House of Lords", a citizenship restricted to people with some wealth.

The US constitution is probably the most democratic text out there on its principles, then of course comes the issue on who are to be concerned by it.

The same goes with the french "declaration of Human rights" 1789, but if principles are essential, a democracy to succeed the best it can needs its rulers to profoundly adhere to those principles, which is what failed by 1792...

So, i will agree that - on paper and theoretically - the USA today are probably the most democratic State in the world...Still, in my taste, there is some missing elements... ;) , but at least, you have the basis, all you need actually is a leader who would be sincerely close to the theories expressed.

But, is a perfect democracy even achievable?


Of course I had in mind slaves in Ancient Greece and Indians, blacks, women and others excluded in the modern democracies. When I said 'Aren't these concepts made real in the English Bill of Rights of the 17th century and in the American constitution' referring to 'citizens', I meant the great progress of transferring the power of The One or the power of the Few to the Many, equally, no matter poor or rich, and no matter if your blood comes from a family that was always in power.
Certainly it is an ongoing process that even today hasn't be completed and it will take a very long time, but the main point here is that the concepts of isegoria and parrhesia made possible the great change 'you don't have to be born with a high class blood to be in power and to rule all other people', under those old days conditions, of course. There are now other criteria to become a citizen, and your vote is equal to everyone's else inside the body of the citizens, of course. That's why I said «The concept that most included people, against all other regimes of the time, whose their concepts excluded people».
I thought it was clear, but I had to clarify it further, my mistake.
Last edited by Kleon_I XYZ Contagion on Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Nazi Granny

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:35 pm

We may all be saying the same thing: I do tend to react to the overselling of the US Constitution. If Jeff_36 sees US history as a heroic march with a shining beacon at its head, I see it as more of an ugly slog with empty promises both betrayed and weaponized. I'm old enough, for example, to remember segregation . . . and a lot else. And, as noted, I taught US history (many, many years ago LOL) on the college level for a few years. It all made me a glass-half-full kind of observer - and a bit cynical in my dotage.

OTOH when deniers have tried dismissing points I make as victor's history - LGR went so far as to blame me personally for Clinton's disastrous Libyan policy - they have fingered the wrong guy. :mrgreen:
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6452
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Nazi Granny

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:18 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:We may all be saying the same thing: I do tend to react to the overselling of the US Constitution. If Jeff_36 sees US history as a heroic march with a shining beacon at its head, I see it as more of an ugly slog with empty promises both betrayed and weaponized. I'm old enough, for example, to remember segregation . . . and a lot else. And, as noted, I taught US history (many, many years ago LOL) on the college level for a few years. It all made me a glass-half-full kind of observer - and a bit cynical in my dotage.


I’ve gotten that way myself.

I’ve read too much American history to look at this country as some sort of shining paragon of virtue. This country participated in the repression of Native Americans, imperial campaigns against the Philippines (and other places), the enslavement of Africans and repression of black US citizens and other minorities, etc. A significant percentage of this country thought it was a great idea to elect a giant, orange anus as the president of this country, a significant percentage of this country remains intolerant (yes, including those who call themselves “liberal”) and racist.

OTOH I also see the virtues. We are flawed but at least we haven’t had a Stalin or a Hitler (even if the anus wants to) and we’ve tried to get better. Thud is a huge step in the wrong direction but hopefully we will get this corrected, even if my children or theirs spend decades fixing crap that Thud breaks. If nothing this woke up the grassroots that got lazy and complacent while Obama was in office. BTW, I include myself in that category.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Nazi Granny

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:26 pm

Because we have so much wealth and power, the impact of what we do, say, and promote has been outsized. I see, sadly, a lot of parochialism and arrogance in our culture, perhaps a legacy of having so much wealth and power. But the slightest pushback to American power, and we go all #MAGA on the world. Not that I am surprised by it, but I still manage to be disappointed . . .
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 6K Posts
Posts: 6452
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Nazi Granny

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:30 pm

People forget, nothing lasts forever. Not even American power and wealth, in the end it may mean nothing.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 17464
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Nazi Granny

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:49 pm

. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817


Return to “Holocaust Denial”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest