Hoax quotes fact checking

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
Balmoral95
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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Balmoral95 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:02 pm

>"Did he use the actual word telepathy somewhere?"

No, it was Faurisson used "telepathy".

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n1p15_Faurisson.html

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:20 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:>"Did he use the actual word telepathy somewhere?"

No, it was Faurisson used "telepathy".

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n1p15_Faurisson.html



From IHR:

In 1976 appeared The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, a work by the most prestigious of revisionist authors, Arthur R. Butz, who teaches at Northwestern University near Chicago. He shows that the alleged extermination of the Jews constitutes "the hoax of the twentieth century."




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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:29 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:>"Did he use the actual word telepathy somewhere?"

No, it was Faurisson used "telepathy".

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n1p15_Faurisson.html

thanks, that's my recollection too; I've asked deniers to produce a "telepathy" quotation and never gotten one from them
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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:31 pm

I’m glad I spared myself “The Hoax of the 20th Century.” I never got that far.
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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Balmoral95 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:34 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’m glad I spared myself “The Hoax of the 20th Century.” I never got that far.


It's a very worthwhile read.... for laughs :mrgreen:

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Darren Wilshak » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:09 pm

Yes it was actually a subject of a rodoh book club at one time.

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:11 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’m glad I spared myself “The Hoax of the 20th Century.” I never got that far.

We tried to have a "book discussion thread" on THOTTC at Rodoh1.0. The revs fled so quickly that it turned out to be, in the immortal words of Seb Gorka, a nothing burger. The few rev nuggets inspired poosh to beg for an actual debate on the book:
Isn't it Rollo's job to defend Beavis and Butzhead and to disprove the hoax? I suspect that Rollo is more Beavis and less Butzhead. Do any cretins want to but this comic book on a pedestal and show us some drooling adulation - it is one of the great classics of revisionism.

When Mary Q told me that THOTTC would answer my questions to her about Chelmno, the subsequent "discussion" here, Butz scarcely dealing with Chelmno, went about as well. The book is a total clunker, an embarrassment to those who cannot be embarrassed.
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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:12 pm

LOL @ Darren & me posting the same damned thing at virtually the same moment
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby BRoI » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:09 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:>"Did he use the actual word telepathy somewhere?"

No, it was Faurisson used "telepathy".

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n1p15_Faurisson.html

thanks, that's my recollection too; I've asked deniers to produce a "telepathy" quotation and never gotten one from them


The oft-quoted extract:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Hilberg/says_no_plan.html

You can order a scan of the newspaper:
https://www.nypl.org/collections/articles-databases/proquest-historical-newspapers-newsday

Hilberg confirmed the quote's accuracy:

Q [Doug Christie]. Now, you earlier were asked about an article by Avery Fisher Hall called, "The Holocaust in Perspective", and I now produce and show it to you. It says, "Panelist, Raul Hilberg, a Professor, ponders the question of the Holocaust."

A [Raul Hilberg]. It is a question asked by the audience. I was listening.

Q. I am talking about you and reading this, aren't I? You are the man in the article?

A. But please read what it says there.

Q. I will just ask you if this is accurate as to what you said. Maybe I should read it right in your presence so we don't make any mistakes. I have highlighted the part that I want to read to you and ask you if you said this, and if it is true. Right there: "If one looks at origins one may go back through the centuries into antiquity to discover the building blocks of destruction of the European Jews." Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. "Hilberg said, but what began in 1941 was a process of destruction not planned to advance." Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. "Not organized centrally by any agency." Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. "There was no blueprint." Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. "There was no budget for destructive measures." Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. "They were taken step by step, one "step at a time." Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. "Thus came about not so much...." and then it goes over to the next page, ".... not so much a plan being carried out, but an incredible meeting of minds, a consensus, mind reading by a far flung bureaucracy." Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. You said that, didn't you?

A. I said that. I said nothing about any order not existing.
1st Zuendel trial transcript, p.846f
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:13 pm

So, what I quoted, no "telepathy," big news.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:21 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:So, what I quoted, no "telepathy," big news.

Has anyone claimed Hilberg literally said "telepathy"?

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:34 pm

Yes, in this forum, some of the deniers, IIRC Mary Q and Monstrous. NathanC had written "Telepathy," which didn't match my recollection. That's why I asked, I know of no foundation for their claims. Balmoral confirmed my recollection.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby BRoI » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:48 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:So, what I quoted, no "telepathy," big news.

Sorry, my bad. I wasn't aware of a notable difference between mind-reading and telepathy.

Try this:

Hilberg wrote:
A few years ago the German historians, becoming more acutely sensitive to the Holocaust and its implications, decided that all the people who had ever done research in this field, all the footnote writers of the world, were going to be invited to a conference in Stuttgart where they were going to deal with the central question, 'How was this decision made?'

There were two schools of thought. I sat there listening, everybody wondering what I would say. One of the arguments astonished me. It was voiced by Martin Broszat, the head of the Institute for Contemporary History in Munich, and by Hans Mommsen. They said that there was no Hitler decision. There was no Hitler any more. He was a figurehead. There was automation—decision making itself had been automated. That which was latent in the whole bureaucracy now came to the fore without signals or orders. The next step was merely a matter of logical consequence. I always had some difficulties with this theory because I wondered, as did Christopher Browning, how it was that death camps were built all at the same time? Were the decision makers engaging in telepathy?
- Raul Hilberg, "The Holocaust Response and Dialogue", cf. P. B. Woodruff et al., Facing Evil: Confronting the Dreadful Power Behind Genocide, Terroism, and Cruelty: Confronting the Dreadful Power Behind Genocide, Terrorism and Cruelty, 2001 [org. 1989], p.104.
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:07 pm

This is where Hilberg answers his own question, discussing first Krausnick, then his mentor Franz Neumann and his own thoughts on bureaucracy and the destruction process? It's not, however, where he "attributed the planning of the Holocaust to 'Telepathy'."
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby BRoI » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:11 am

1stZTT, 1985, p.849 wrote:Q [Christie]. A consensus, mind reading by a far-flung bureaucracy. Does that imply the existence of an order to you?
[...]
A [Hilberg]. If an order is given orally and passed on, and especially if wording is couched in such a way that the order giver relies on the understanding of the subordinate, then it does become important for those subordinates to understand, indeed, and to have the same understanding of what was expected. And this is what I said.


Browning wrote:The Revised Hilberg
by Christopher R. Browning
[...]
There is one major interpretational change, however, concerning the role of Hitler in the decision making process. In the first edition the image of the impersonal machinery of destruction was dominant, but this image was at least partially tempered by Hitler as ultimate decision-maker.16 In the new edition, all references in the text to a Hitler decision or Hitler order for the "Final Solution" have been systematically excised.17 Buried at the bottom of a single footnote stands the solitary reference: "Chronology and circumstances point to a Hitler decision before the summer ended."18 In the new edition, decisions were not made and orders were not given. The Fuhrer prophesied, commented, and wished; within the bureaucracy ideas crystallized, thinking converged, and atmosphere and expectation facilitated initiative at every level. Adolf Hitler does not disappear from the scene, but he appears only infrequently as catalyst, not decision-maker. In 1933 "Adolf Hitler's ascendency to the chancellorship was a signal to the bureaucracy that it could begin to take action against the Jews."19 In 1939 Hitler prophesied and threatened that war would bring the annihilation of the European Jews, creating an atmosphere of imminence and expectation. In the summer of 1941 the Germans realized that the time had come to cross over the dividing-line to systematic mass murder. "Pivotal in this crystallization was the role of Adolf Hitler himself, his stance before the world and, more specifically, his wishes or expectations voiced in an inner circle."20 But it was left to others to cite his promises and invoke his authority.

In several new sections Hilberg develops the powerful conceptual insight that as the persecution of the Jews escalated, the modus operandi of the Nazi regime changed. A formal structure of public laws and written regulations dissolved into an increasingly opaque and formless network of secret directives, vague authorizations, oral communications, and "basic understandings of officials resulting in decisions not requiring orders or explanations."

In essence, then, there was an atrophy of laws and a corresponding multiplication of measures for which the sources of authority were more and more ethereal. Valves were being opened for a decision flow. The experienced functionary was coming into his own. A middleranking bureaucrat, no less than his highest superior, was aware of currents and possibilities. In small ways as well as large, he recognized what was ripe for the time. Most often it was he who initiated action.


Hilberg concludes succinctly: "In the final analysis, the destruction of the Jews was not so much a product of laws and commands as it was a matter of spirit, of shared comprehension, of consonance and synchronization." (italics mine)
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=gvKVLcMVIuG&b=395051
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby nickterry » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:16 pm

I'm finding the discussion of 'genocide by telepathy' amusing on two levels.

Firstly, the fact that deniers still repeat this makes them look really, really dated. The Hilberg article from Newsday is literally 35 years old now, since the article appeared on 23 February 1983. True, he repeated similar ideas or the exact same quote through the 1980s, but this quote has extremely Big Hair from ozone-unfriendly CFC-containing hairspray. Deniers need new material.

Secondly, Hilberg may have been a pioneering researcher and synthesiser, but in the debate over the origins of the Final Solution and decision-making, he has been more or less irrelevant for decades. The structure of the original edition (1961) of The Destruction of European Jews, which was retained in the 1985 and 2003 editions, meant that Hilberg largely slid past the issue of the timing of decision-making; the edits for the 1985 edition doubly ensured this. University students do not cite Hilberg when considering the origins of the Final Solution; they might cite him for the overviews of different countries or some other topics covered in his magnum opus, but not on this issue.

Ever since Browning's extended review in SWC Annual, few commentators on the origins of the Final Solution have really engaged with Hilberg on issues of timing or decision-making processes. Hilberg's exact wording was too loose to really be quotable. If one tried to apply it narrowly to the Wannsee conference, for example, then it simply doesn't work as an interpretation of the protocol or its surrounding paper trail. There were too many conflicts at Wannsee, especially over definitional issues, which continue to be reflected in further memos and letters, e.g. from Stuckart.

The broader point, however, is widely accepted, but it's a rather subtle and nuanced one. Few historians would disagree that Nazi decision-making involved many initiatives from below or from the 'periphery', designed to fulfil aims that were stated more vaguely from the centre, i.e. by Hitler. This is why Ian Kershaw evolved his concept of 'working towards the Fuehrer' in the 1990s, and why other historians such as Wendy Lower have tried out similar concepts such as 'anticipatory obedience'. Understanding how permissions, initiatives and orders coexisted is what understanding 1941-2 is all about. Failing to understand this complexity leads to a variety of dead-end interpretations that aren't accurate - including the interpretations proffered by Faurisson, Mattogno and other deniers, who lived through the era of debating the origins of the Final Solution but who clearly never lived it.

Essentially no historian would now accept the classic top-down totalitarian dictatorship model when applied to the Third Reich or the decision-making for the Final Solution. But this model persists in the popular understanding of Hitler and the Third Reich, so deniers think they can play on this ignorance and try LOLing when historians grope towards alternative models of understanding a more complex regime structure. The joke is on them, as the term 'polycracy' is apparently entirely absent from the entire revisionist oeuvre - it certainly isn't used in a single page, article or book chapter on vho.org when I have checked this.

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:19 pm

thanks, I just ran out of interest in this with BROI’s increasingly tendentious, irrelevant replies, but your post is very helpful: in the conference remarks cited above by BROI, Hilberg rather discursively makes a case, not altogether successfully IMO, against top down views of the extermination of the Jews - in Hilberg’s remarks it's clear that he's not talking in any literal sense about mind-reading or telepathy but rather about the shared mindset, outlook, and expectations of a large cohort of administrators, bureaucrats, and professionals; OTOH I was asking something much more limited, about the actual use of the term "telepathy" by Hilberg (to describe how the Reich officials made decisions) , as 1) some deniers still use this argument, or, as we can see, some try muddying the waters about it, and 2) much as I've read, and re-read of, Hilberg, I certainly don't recall every phrase or term Hilberg employed and wanted to know if I'd missed something Hilberg had written, however metaphorically
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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:39 pm

Like rollo, deniers struggle with abstract reasoning and apply literal definitions to concepts and words (rollo’s endless obsession over the term “ghetto” comes to mind).

It’s also telling how stuck in the past those morons are. The scholarship moved past the 1960’s and interpretations need to change as new documents come to light. Hilberg isn’t the last word on the subject.
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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:07 pm

I am unfamiliar, alas, with Rollo the ganger's thoughts about ghettos . . . pray tell . . .
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:29 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I am unfamiliar, alas, with Rollo the ganger's thoughts about ghettos . . . pray tell . . .


I got trapped in an endless twilight zone discussion with rollo over ghettos in Eastern Europe. He made the point that the Germans only reopened ghettos in Poland, that they existed prior to the German occupation. I think he said the same for the Soviet Union.

Now, I'm not an expert on Jewish life in Eastern Europe before WW II but as far as I knew there were no Western European-style ghettos in Poland or Imperial Russia. Jews were restricted to the Pale of Settlement and for the most part lived in Shtetls or Jewish sections of cities but not walled ghettos. After WW I Jews faced increasing discrimination in Poland but were never placed into ghettos.

I explained this to rollo, who proceeded to post tract after tract of stuff he randomly pulled from the internet using the word "ghetto." I showed him this was poetic license, we use the word " ghetto" to describe inner cities where ethnic minorities live.

He never got it. That should've told me everything I needed to know....
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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:34 pm

Ah, that explains the ghettoization orders, population movements, wall-building, food and supply management, security measures imposed, etc . . . (thanks)
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Balmoral95 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:17 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Ah, that explains the ghettoization orders, population movements, wall-building, food and supply management, security measures imposed, etc . . . (thanks)


As a group, the online HDers are almost to a man absolutely clueless regarding ghettoes... at least the ones I've run into over the years.

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby BRoI » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:07 pm

Did [Christopher] Browning agree with Hilberg, asked Christie, that there was an 'incredible meeting of minds, a consensus, mind reading by a far-flung bureaucracy'?

Browning replied that he would have framed it somewhat differently: "... I think Hilberg's interpretation is a little bit too much focused on an almost autonomous bureaucratic process, that my own understand[ing] would emphasize greater the kind of initiatives and signals coming from Hitler that were understood by those under him to be orders, such as Heydrich's statement to Eichmann that the Führer has ordered the physical extermination of the Jews and various references to the task 'I have received' or 'the order I have received' in Himmler's speeches given in World War Two." (15-3408)

Did Browning consider Hilberg to be a reasonable historian?, asked Christie.

"As we have said," replied Browning, "I consider that this is an area in which there can be different interpretations by reasonable men." (15-3408)

Christie put it to Browning that reasonable men did not have to believe in the existence of "mind reading" at all.

Browning disagreed: "I would suggest that that is a metaphor or a way of trying to articulate that a large number of people who had been involved in shaping and carrying out a process of discrimination against the Jews had reached the point where something had to be done or that would not be the way something -- they had reached a point where they were receptive to signals." (15- 3409)

Did this include 'nods' and 'winks'?, asked Christie.

"Himmler...if they were with him, it wouldn't have taken more than a kind of nod," said Browning, "why Himmler would know about the European Jews after the Einsatzgruppen had already been killing Jews in Russia. That, again, is a figure of speech to indicate that it didn't take a major conference; it didn't take an explicit written-out order. These were men who were seeking to understand what Hitler wanted, and were seeking to implement it." (15-3409, 3410)

Christie put the question to Browning again: did he think a reasonable man could disbelieve in the existence of "mind reading by a far-flung bureaucracy" or "an incredible meeting of minds"?

Browning replied that he had understood the question to mean, could a reasonable man in fact invoke such a metaphor. He believed a "reasonable person could disagree with his interpretation." (15-3410)


Barbara Kulaszka
'Did Six Million Really Die?' Report of the Evidence in the Canadian 'False News' Trial of Ernst Zündel –1988, p.259f.
http://www.solargeneral.org/wp-content/uploads/library/did-six-million-really-die-barbara-kulaszka.pdf
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Balmoral95 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:24 am

Yawn,,

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:47 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Aaron Richards wrote:

I found a page that debunks Talmud verses ripped out of context and/or deliberately distorted by websites like "synagogue of satan", but I was wondering if generic pre-WW2 quotes are also addressed this way somewhere.


You're talking about Gil Student's website, right? It is indeed the best non-hebrew source on the subject
http://talmud.faithweb.com/
(The only anti-semetic website I found attempting to debunk Rabbi Student is... well, this, let's just say that their cover photo says it all
https://banjohollow.wordpress.com/2011/ ... o-reality/)

Student is a religious apologist in the first place, and it shows. He is not wrong on most stuff, but e.g. his treatment of Jesus in the Talmud is downright primitive. The original uncensored manuscripts actually have "Yeshu ha-Notzri", not simply Yeshu, an unambiguous reference also acknowledged e.g. by Adin Steinsaltz:

https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.43a.2 ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Gittin.57a.3?vh ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Shabbat.104b.5? ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.67a.1 ... sh&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.107b. ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Sotah.47a.14?vh ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.103a. ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Berakhot.17b.1? ... ic&lang=bi

(These should be checked on the desktop PCs, they tend to redirect to the Hebrew translation on smaller mobile devices.)

Not to mention the acknowledged secular scholarship:

https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Talmud-Pet ... 0691143188


Why bother with this comment if you yourself admit that he is not wrong about most stuff?
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:28 am

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Aaron Richards wrote:

I found a page that debunks Talmud verses ripped out of context and/or deliberately distorted by websites like "synagogue of satan", but I was wondering if generic pre-WW2 quotes are also addressed this way somewhere.


You're talking about Gil Student's website, right? It is indeed the best non-hebrew source on the subject
http://talmud.faithweb.com/
(The only anti-semetic website I found attempting to debunk Rabbi Student is... well, this, let's just say that their cover photo says it all
https://banjohollow.wordpress.com/2011/ ... o-reality/)

Student is a religious apologist in the first place, and it shows. He is not wrong on most stuff, but e.g. his treatment of Jesus in the Talmud is downright primitive. The original uncensored manuscripts actually have "Yeshu ha-Notzri", not simply Yeshu, an unambiguous reference also acknowledged e.g. by Adin Steinsaltz:

https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.43a.2 ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Gittin.57a.3?vh ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Shabbat.104b.5? ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.67a.1 ... sh&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.107b. ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Sotah.47a.14?vh ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.103a. ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Berakhot.17b.1? ... ic&lang=bi

(These should be checked on the desktop PCs, they tend to redirect to the Hebrew translation on smaller mobile devices.)

Not to mention the acknowledged secular scholarship:

https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Talmud-Pet ... 0691143188


Why bother with this comment if you yourself admit that he is not wrong about most stuff?
He's completely wrong on Jesus, employing the usual religious apologetic devices (akin to those used by the Christian inerrantists), which means that he cannot be trusted to tell the whole truth, also when he is not wrong about particular passages.

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:35 am

Sergey_Romanov wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Aaron Richards wrote:

I found a page that debunks Talmud verses ripped out of context and/or deliberately distorted by websites like "synagogue of satan", but I was wondering if generic pre-WW2 quotes are also addressed this way somewhere.


You're talking about Gil Student's website, right? It is indeed the best non-hebrew source on the subject
http://talmud.faithweb.com/
(The only anti-semetic website I found attempting to debunk Rabbi Student is... well, this, let's just say that their cover photo says it all
https://banjohollow.wordpress.com/2011/ ... o-reality/)

Student is a religious apologist in the first place, and it shows. He is not wrong on most stuff, but e.g. his treatment of Jesus in the Talmud is downright primitive. The original uncensored manuscripts actually have "Yeshu ha-Notzri", not simply Yeshu, an unambiguous reference also acknowledged e.g. by Adin Steinsaltz:

https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.43a.2 ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Gittin.57a.3?vh ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Shabbat.104b.5? ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.67a.1 ... sh&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.107b. ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Sotah.47a.14?vh ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.103a. ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Berakhot.17b.1? ... ic&lang=bi

(These should be checked on the desktop PCs, they tend to redirect to the Hebrew translation on smaller mobile devices.)

Not to mention the acknowledged secular scholarship:

https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Talmud-Pet ... 0691143188


Why bother with this comment if you yourself admit that he is not wrong about most stuff?
He's completely wrong on Jesus, employing the usual religious apologetic devices (akin to those used by the Christian inerrantists), which means that he cannot be trusted to tell the whole truth, also when he is not wrong about particular passages.


The key word is "most".
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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:03 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Aaron Richards wrote:

I found a page that debunks Talmud verses ripped out of context and/or deliberately distorted by websites like "synagogue of satan", but I was wondering if generic pre-WW2 quotes are also addressed this way somewhere.


You're talking about Gil Student's website, right? It is indeed the best non-hebrew source on the subject
http://talmud.faithweb.com/
(The only anti-semetic website I found attempting to debunk Rabbi Student is... well, this, let's just say that their cover photo says it all
https://banjohollow.wordpress.com/2011/ ... o-reality/)

Student is a religious apologist in the first place, and it shows. He is not wrong on most stuff, but e.g. his treatment of Jesus in the Talmud is downright primitive. The original uncensored manuscripts actually have "Yeshu ha-Notzri", not simply Yeshu, an unambiguous reference also acknowledged e.g. by Adin Steinsaltz:

https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.43a.2 ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Gittin.57a.3?vh ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Shabbat.104b.5? ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.67a.1 ... sh&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.107b. ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Sotah.47a.14?vh ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.103a. ... ic&lang=bi
https://www.sefaria.org/Berakhot.17b.1? ... ic&lang=bi

(These should be checked on the desktop PCs, they tend to redirect to the Hebrew translation on smaller mobile devices.)

Not to mention the acknowledged secular scholarship:

https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Talmud-Pet ... 0691143188


Why bother with this comment if you yourself admit that he is not wrong about most stuff?
He's completely wrong on Jesus, employing the usual religious apologetic devices (akin to those used by the Christian inerrantists), which means that he cannot be trusted to tell the whole truth, also when he is not wrong about particular passages.


The key word is "most".


The key phrase is "whole truth". What he is saying is mostly not wrong, as in, his interpretations have a right to exist. What he is not saying (because his aim is apologetics and not a neutral analysis) is that there are other rabbinical opinions, that are not as benign as his (though if you read his comments, his interpretations are not really all that benign in the first place).

Example: http://daatemet.org.il/en/torah-science ... n-halacha/

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Factchecker » Fri May 25, 2018 4:51 pm

Hello, I am trying to fact check this statement of fact from The National Association of Forensic Historians:


"It is alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II - hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of corpses were buried in numerous “huge mass graves” at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II. However, despite all the deceptive claims / allegations / insinuations to the contrary, the simple truth is; the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the one hundred graves / cremation pits that are alleged to have been scientifically located / proven to currently exist at these five sites - in which actual, verified human remains have literally / truly been physically unearthed / tangibly located by archaeologists / forensic investigators by means of bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented archaeology / forensic science; contains the remains of - ONLY SIX PEOPLE."

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri May 25, 2018 6:45 pm

Factchecker wrote:Hello, I am trying to fact check this statement of fact from The National Association of Forensic Historians:


"It is alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II - hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of corpses were buried in numerous “huge mass graves” at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II. However, despite all the deceptive claims / allegations / insinuations to the contrary, the simple truth is; the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the one hundred graves / cremation pits that are alleged to have been scientifically located / proven to currently exist at these five sites - in which actual, verified human remains have literally / truly been physically unearthed / tangibly located by archaeologists / forensic investigators by means of bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented archaeology / forensic science; contains the remains of - ONLY SIX PEOPLE."


That’s actually bogus, NAFH only exists in Greg Gerdes’ fevered imagination.

I get a big kick out of the closed end “yes or no” questions.
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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri May 25, 2018 7:02 pm

What's with all the slashes? They make it very difficult to read Mr Gerdes' false claims. Starting hereare some more of same, when you, er, Greg used the moniker WendyO. Let's see how long this lasts.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri May 25, 2018 7:37 pm

Maybe we can get an answer if RODOH just kicked Greg off or he had a complete mental breakdown and stopped posting.

:pc:
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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri May 25, 2018 8:04 pm

Pyrrho would want to know if this is another incarnation of WendyO. He doesn't mind sockpuppets - unless they are by banned users. :pc:
.

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Factchecker » Fri May 25, 2018 8:05 pm

Maybe I should be more specific about the fact that I'm trying to check.

"The largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the one hundred graves / cremation pits that are alleged to have been scientifically located / proven to currently exist at these five sites (Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II) contains the remains of - ONLY SIX PEOPLE."

And this is the specific grave in question:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/11/ ... 391739.jpg

The grave is said to have been located at Sobibor.

Is it really the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the 24 located there?

It is clear that there is at least one smaller grave, as it is also shown in the above photo.
Last edited by Factchecker on Fri May 25, 2018 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri May 25, 2018 8:06 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Pyrrho would want to know if this is another incarnation of WendyO. He doesn't mind sockpuppets - unless they are by banned users. :pc:


I say we let this stew for a bit longer......
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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri May 25, 2018 8:12 pm

Factchecker wrote:Maybe I should be more specific about the fact that I'm trying to check.

"The largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the one hundred graves / cremation pits that are alleged to have been scientifically located / proven to currently exist at these five sites (Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II) contains the remains of - ONLY SIX PEOPLE."

And this is the specific grave in question:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/11/ ... 391739.jpg

The grave is said to have been located at Sobibor.

Is it really the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the 24 located there?

It is clear that there is at least one smaller grave, as it is also shown in the above photo.

Are you looking only for graves containing whole bodies?
.

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri May 25, 2018 8:17 pm

Factchecker wrote:Maybe I should be more specific about the fact that I'm trying to check.

"The largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the one hundred graves / cremation pits that are alleged to have been scientifically located / proven to currently exist at these five sites (Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II) contains the remains of - ONLY SIX PEOPLE."

And this is the specific grave in question:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/11/ ... 391739.jpg

The grave is said to have been located at Sobibor.

Is it really the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the 24 located there?

It is clear that there is at least one smaller grave, as it is also shown in the above photo.


Hi, Factchecker.

Those are intact bodies, most of the victims were reduced to ash and bone.

Do you have any friends you can bring along?
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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Factchecker » Fri May 25, 2018 8:24 pm

The first 18 graves / cremation pits are shown in this map:

Image

And the other 6 are shown in this map:

Image

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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri May 25, 2018 8:26 pm

Factchecker wrote:The first 18 graves / cremation pits are shown in this map:

Image

And the other 6 are shown in this map:

Image


Uh huh.
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Re: Hoax quotes fact checking

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri May 25, 2018 8:26 pm

:pc:

I’m getting ready to leave work and go to the gym, we will continue this later.
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