Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Jeffk 1970
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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:17 pm

Nessie wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:.....

No, Scott, not humane for the victims...humane for the killers.


Nail on head. Read Otto Ohlendorf's testimony about the work of the Einsatzgruppen at the Nikolaev Massacre in Ukraine;

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/f ... imony.html

" OHLENDORF: I knew that the Einsatzkommandos were using the vans.

COL. POKROVSKY: No, I had something else in mind. I wanted to know whether you received reports that members of the execution squads were unwilling to use the vans and preferred other means of execution?

OHLENDORF: That they would rather kill by means of the gas vans than by shooting?

COL. POKROVSKY: On the contrary, that they preferred execution by shooting to killing by means of the gas vans.

OHLENDORF: You have already said the gas van...

COL. POKROVSKY: And why did they prefer execution by shooting to killing in the gas vans?

OHLENDORF: Because, as I have already said, in the opinion of the leader of the Einsatzkommandos, the unloading of the corpses was an unnecessary mental strain.

COL. POKROVSKY: What do you mean by "an unnecessary mental strain"?

OHLENDORF: As far as I can remember the conditions at that time - the picture presented by the corpses and probably because certain functions of the body had taken place leaving the corpses lying in filth."

That is opposite to other claims that the strain of shooting was too much, but Ohlendorf's men were having to empty the gas vans, not like at the AR camps where Sonderkommandos did the dirty work.


Back to the bit about being "humane," you mention the psychological strain imposed by emptying the vans. The SK's did this for months, in the ARC like you said but also at Chelmno and Birkenau. So this pain went on and on for the SK's, so much so that many chose suicide.

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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:21 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I don't know.....how many people are actually going to type in "did the hol?"

Anyone wanting to know more about it is going to be specific about what they want.

That's the point I was going to make.

During the second Bush administration, the first result returned by entering "miserable failure" into google was George Bush's whitehouse.gov website. Searching for "French military victories" used to offer a fake google error page that read "No such page exists. Do you mean French military defeats"

Search for "did the arm" will return "did the armenian genocide happen" IIRC, searching google for a topic that was under discussion here would return links to our discussion. This doesn't seem to happen anymore. Maybe google changed the algorithm so we're not as important as we used to be.

This is much ado about nothing. It must've been a slow news day at the Guardian
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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:39 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I don't know.....how many people are actually going to type in "did the hol?"

Anyone wanting to know more about it is going to be specific about what they want.

That's the point I was going to make.

During the second Bush administration, the first result returned by entering "miserable failure" into google was George Bush's whitehouse.gov website. Searching for "French military victories" used to offer a fake google error page that read "No such page exists. Do you mean French military defeats"

Search for "did the arm" will return "did the armenian genocide happen" IIRC, searching google for a topic that was under discussion here would return links to our discussion. This doesn't seem to happen anymore. Maybe google changed the algorithm so we're not as important as we used to be.

This is much ado about nothing. It must've been a slow news day at the Guardian


Now, Mary. We can't make this a habit of agreeing with each other....what will the others think????

:lol:

In all seriousness I agree. While it is somewhat concerning the proliferation of denier sites on internet for the most part I think you have to be specific on how you word something. Generally a search on "Holocaust" will direct someone to Wikipedia or The USHMM, not IHR or CODOH.

I also cringe when I see newspapers try and write stories about the Holocaust. Or politicians mention it as a sound bite. They generally just muck it up.

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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Denying-History » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:12 pm

That's because everyone goes there for a brief overview of any event.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Scott Mayers » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:40 pm

Balsamo wrote:Scott Mayers:

I've already stated this with clarity


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Do what you guys want. But you're literally adding to the problem. Those 'searches' you do CONTRIBUTE to how Google opts to place those on top just as the site here has placed this topic up front. Your appeal to this concern is fostering the concern and why Google's search engines place them up front, not just because people are actually prevailing of some increased doubt on the Holocaust. Your feeding into it!

:roll:
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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Scott Mayers » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:15 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:What makes Scott Mayer's posts all the emptier - yet more repugnant - are two issues that arise from study of the war years: first, as Jeff_36 writes, diverse Jewish communities across Europe were targeted in ways that their neighbors were not - including the effort to exterminate European Jews en masse; second, across Europe responses to the Nazi was against Jews varied but time and again non-Jews showed indifference to the ways in which Jews were attacked, as though Nazi categories did in fact govern and the Nazis had succeeded in promoting an idea of "the Jews." In this sense, the fate of Jews was often understood as a matter separate to what was happening to one's country, to one's real neighbors, or in one's "world." What Scott seems to advocate is a repeat of this pattern of targeting Jews for "special treatment" by his arguing that historical study which recognizes what happened to European Jews is somehow a national or religious promotion of Israel or a Jewish agenda which Scott won't state outright.

Scott's posts do not mention the historical context for the Holocaust nor developments, events, plans, actions, responses, or contemporary thinking. By generalizing and philosophizing, Scott imagines himself free to peddle whatever prejudices, misunderstanding or outright bigotry he wishes.

False.

What the 'history' against the Jews derived from was Christianities initial origin as a type of 'democratic' religion in that it invited ALL people as equal of the same 'gods'. The biased religions that SEGREGATE themselves out of disdain, not out of actual compassion for others are why the prejudices came about.

One major factor of Christianity was a contempt (originally) of those who con others or use them by creating MIDDLE MARKETS that contribute to people's wealth in an exponential way as we have today, embracing Capitalism: That to each and one's own to have a right to EXPLOIT others for trades based on nothing but one's economic powers. While this is NOT specifically Jewish fault, the partial acceptance through time where Christianity forbade 'usury' laws made the lack of such laws within Judaism proper tend to favor them as the 'loan sharks' of the past. The perceptions, right or wrong, were based on the interpretation of groups of people coming into another's place with wealth who favors a CLOSED community that favors their own rather than foster the new places they enter into.

So while I don't approve of ANY discrimination, I believe that the Jews equally contributed in the past to their own prejudices because they did not approve of favoring MIXING on a genetic bases just as Hitler had. His own (or rather all the National Socialists) took the Nietzsche interpretation of the strength of 'pride' as based on what they saw of the strength of community in Jewish SEGREGATE cultures as justified proof that Nationalism works. They just opted to do for their 'Natives' (The German Aboriginals) a form of SEGREGATE FAVORITISM that fit for themselves.

To me, the HATERS are all YOU {!#%@} who support SEGREGATE RIGHTS of people BASED on a belief that specific cultures/ethnicities OWN some unusual right ABOVE all others to laws that favor them, protect them, etc. This is NATIONAL SOCIALISM!! This is happening with the left as much as the right when you support "Multiculturalism" too when this is NOT about favoring the diversity of INDIVIDUAL people but to SELECT groups.

So that is why I'm not surprised we are having ANY increase in Nationalism. IT IS NOT simply some specific group that causing the problems. IT'S in ALL political persuasions lately as people are not treating political issues equally based on the individual and the whole. Rather you SEE people in 'genetic' terms as some who deserve more favor over others. The LESSON of the Holocaust will not be learned because you guys are petty to focus on somethings overly specific about FACTS about history and not on the LOGIC underlying this kind of thinking. The German people weren't merely 'conned' any more than you guys think your the bright ones accusing some phantom enemies that you are actually helping to create when you favor laws that target some genetic-classed group while arrogantly ignoring that you are doing the same damn thing.

If you favor supporting Israel, you FAVOR NATIONAL SOCIALISM of the Jewish people, in exactly the same kind of thinking that the Germans did in the last centuries. Embracing some 'favor' to choosing ones' own comes at the cost of IGNORING some outsider. So you think exactly the same way because you think in terms of THEM_STUPID and WE_SMART when you are just fortunate to be of some close knit cult of your own without realizing it. The only way you'll fix this is if you STOP thinking THEY are deluded 'terrorists' or 'haters', etc. We are ALL as much 'victims' as we are 'perpetrators' in some way. But if you see actual people somewhere as literally EVIL, how could you NOT expect them to turn around and lock you up when you don't realize they were the ones suffering AT YOUR SELECTIVE IGNORANCE. NOT feeding your child is just as 'terroristic' as the child turning violent once it escapes to steal and plunder for being previously ignored. And the cycle just repeats itself.
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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:58 pm

Whoever wtore that Guardian article is a complete idiot. From a rethorics standpoint, that is.

Senetences like "Happy that if you have children, this is what they’re being exposed to?" are exactly the kind of things that holocause deniers feed upon. While their actual "arguments" have remained largley the same over 30 years, a only field where they do get new matrial to work with is everything that has to do with cultural treatment of the holocaust. It's sentences like that that make them go "You are afraid of the truth", "Those Jews are afraid to leave their safe-space" or "the Internet is winning against the kike's lies", and makes them fell like martyrs who know better than all the rest of the sheepulz. When we complain about Holocaust denial, we make it possible for it to continue.
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:43 pm


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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Scott Mayers » Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:38 pm

And note from that link:

"Since Google seems cool with altering its search results to benefit the company, surely it can also demote the ranking of a hateful website that promotes lies."

This is my point. They DO limit searches and it is NOT always about illegal activities either!! So I believe this is actually possibly left for the same reasons Trump can 'win' even if he gets bad publicity. The absurdity of the complaints are so caricatured, that I can actually see these sites being enhanced to rise to the top even when they are MADE UP for some propaganda or of a sincere MINORITY of odd people. I give charity to most people who appear weird because I think they aren't given a fair chance to be heard and with patience, you can actually see they are reasonable after all.

So, assuming the best, it suggests that if not for mere entertainment, it can just as easily be a ploy by those who WANT us to interpret a real enemy that doesn't exist. It is empowering to Israel for instance. The same thing happened when Bush Junior repeated Weapons of Mass Destruction on Iraq regardless of actual evidence. It is sufficient to make some at least be uncertain and think there is controversy when there isn't.
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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:41 pm

Scott Mayers wrote:...Those 'searches' you do CONTRIBUTE to how Google opts to place those on top just as the site here has placed this topic up front...
(my emphasis)

Whut?

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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Balsamo » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:32 pm

Scott Mayers wrote:
Balsamo wrote:Scott Mayers:

I've already stated this with clarity


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Do what you guys want. But you're literally adding to the problem. Those 'searches' you do CONTRIBUTE to how Google opts to place those on top just as the site here has placed this topic up front. Your appeal to this concern is fostering the concern and why Google's search engines place them up front, not just because people are actually prevailing of some increased doubt on the Holocaust. Your feeding into it!

:roll:


LOL.
Scott, how many discussions have you followed on this subforum? I mean read through the posts? I guess not a lot as you are not interested. Otherwise you would have realized that most if not all your remarks on what is going on here are irrelevant.
Personally, i don't get anything when i type "did the hol", probably because i have never googled anything like "did the holocaust happen?", most of us actually do read books (and we talked about our readings).

What google does is not my business, so i don't care.

The Holocaust - term i don't really use, by the way - is a historical event, and an important one, not some form of conspiracy. It just happens that this subforum is dedicated to this specific historical event. Now, i also used to participate in other forum, a long time ago, about other historical events. Most historical Events do have forum dedicated to them.
Discussing History does not add anything to conspiracy theories, it actually increases personal historical culture, and being an Historian is actually to be on a permanent learning curve.
What you seem to say is that we should forget about History with a big H, because of the human tendency to use History for ideological and/o political purposes, is that right?

As for the global utility of what we are doing...well except all the things we learn from discussions/disagreements, the impact on other is difficult to measure. It is probably insignificant, and i personally don't care, but i have personally witnessed two deniers renouncing denialism...Good enough for me.

It is not like this subforum attracts many deniers in the first place.

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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Scott Mayers » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:48 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote:...Those 'searches' you do CONTRIBUTE to how Google opts to place those on top just as the site here has placed this topic up front...
(my emphasis)

Whut?

What's your confusion? Oh wait, ....it's a statement. Thanks for asking telling. :?
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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Scott Mayers » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:52 pm

Balsomo,

Perhaps. But I would be discussing something else on 'science' or 'critical thinking' if others here were actually interested. Just had to stop by to see the commotion. I'll be on my way now.
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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Balsamo » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:03 pm

I am pretty sure that there are forums dedicated to "something else" and "science" and even "critical thinking"...This subforum bears the title of "Holocaust denial", this does not mean that we are not dealing with other topics.
Good luck in your search for the perfect forum...

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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Scott Mayers » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:12 pm

Balsamo wrote:I am pretty sure that there are forums dedicated to "something else" and "science" and even "critical thinking"...This subforum bears the title of "Holocaust denial", this does not mean that we are not dealing with other topics.
Good luck in your search for the perfect forum...

I'm not going away. I'm complaining that you guys are playing petty games of who did what and when. That's NOT science nor critical thinking.

An EXAMPLE of HOW you COULD be scientific here is to discuss whether history is something we should 'construct' based on our present experience or whether you COULD prove whether Joe Schmo down in Arkansas spilled 2 liters of milk, 1.2 liters or a quart.

I just don't see how this kind of topic does more than debate data that is contingently unable to be resolved. So it's a social game only, not science nor critical thinking.
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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Balsamo » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:04 pm

An EXAMPLE of HOW you COULD be scientific here is to discuss whether history is something we should 'construct' based on our present experience or whether you COULD prove whether Joe Schmo down in Arkansas spilled 2 liters of milk, 1.2 liters or a quart.


Construction of History? Use of anachronism?

:roll:

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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:10 pm

Scott Mayers wrote:
Balsamo wrote:I am pretty sure that there are forums dedicated to "something else" and "science" and even "critical thinking"...This subforum bears the title of "Holocaust denial", this does not mean that we are not dealing with other topics.
Good luck in your search for the perfect forum...

I'm not going away. I'm complaining that you guys are playing petty games of who did what and when. That's NOT science nor critical thinking.

An EXAMPLE of HOW you COULD be scientific here is to discuss whether history is something we should 'construct' based on our present experience or whether you COULD prove whether Joe Schmo down in Arkansas spilled 2 liters of milk, 1.2 liters or a quart.

I just don't see how this kind of topic does more than debate data that is contingently unable to be resolved. So it's a social game only, not science nor critical thinking.


Why are you here, Scott? Instead of complaining, feel free to open a topic you'd like to discuss. This is a HISTORY sub forum, in spite of the title. We discuss lots of things, not only dealing with the Holocaust but other subjects attached to WW II. My first interest is military history, for example, I enjoy when Matthew talks about military hardware.

So, you can always talk about something regarding the war, if that is your interest. We devoted a topic to the bombing campaign, if that suits you.

But, we do discuss the Holocaust. We don't consider that "petty." It is one of the defining events of the 20th Century. We want to talk about it because of its importance. Deniers do come here, we break down their arguments to show how useless they are.

If you don't like that feel free to discuss whatever you want somewhere else...elswhere on this forum there are lots of things to talk about. I've posted on subjects that interest me that have nothing to do with history.

But, don't come here and complain. We will continue because it is something that interests us. If you aren't interested go somewhere else.

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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:12 pm

"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:18 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:. . . feel free to open a topic you'd like to discuss.

He should also feel free to support at least some of his trite and cliched generalizations with references and evidence.

Jeffk 1970 wrote:We devoted a topic to the bombing campaign, if that suits you.

Among the links above, clearly a thread Scott Mayers is not familiar with.

Jeffk 1970 wrote:But, we do discuss the Holocaust.

Scott Mayers has his knickers in a twist that the subforum on a topic devotes attention to that topic.

Jeffk 1970 wrote:We want to talk about it because of its importance.

There are 10s of 1000s of scholarly and other books published on this topic. We're so unusual.

Jeffk 1970 wrote:We will continue because it is something that interests us. If you aren't interested go somewhere else.

He can always post more news from the manosphere.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:19 pm

:lol:

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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:34 pm

Scott Mayers wrote:I'm not going away.
Go away Scott. You directly lied in another thread when you claimed you had statistical evidence that increasing the price of cigarettes does not reduce demand. You lied.

The sub forum you are posting in is 100% evidence based. Try another sub forum.

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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby nickterry » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:34 pm

Scott Mayers wrote:
Balsamo wrote:I am pretty sure that there are forums dedicated to "something else" and "science" and even "critical thinking"...This subforum bears the title of "Holocaust denial", this does not mean that we are not dealing with other topics.
Good luck in your search for the perfect forum...

I'm not going away. I'm complaining that you guys are playing petty games of who did what and when. That's NOT science nor critical thinking.

An EXAMPLE of HOW you COULD be scientific here is to discuss whether history is something we should 'construct' based on our present experience or whether you COULD prove whether Joe Schmo down in Arkansas spilled 2 liters of milk, 1.2 liters or a quart.

I just don't see how this kind of topic does more than debate data that is contingently unable to be resolved. So it's a social game only, not science nor critical thinking.


You're absolutely correct that there is a social game going on - instigated by a small minority of Holocaust deniers. The social game takes place locally, here on the Skeptics Society Forum, as well as elsewhere on the internet. The social game of asking whether the Holocaust happened or denying it outright has nothing to do with how history is practiced in real life, i.e. by students and researchers. Studying history or doing historical research are not "social games". Nor are they reducible to contemporary politics, or any other handwaving dismissal of the practice of history. (Saying that history is "not science" is likely to provoke a degree of mirth among those who have studied the discipline of history at university level, since we overcame physics envy many decades ago.)

Some deniers chose to sign up to Skeptics Society Forum a decade or more ago, in part because Michael Shermer, whose association with the Skeptics Society I hope is clear enough, had written a book about Holocaust denial in 2000. The fact that Michael Shermer and Alex Grobman wrote a book entitled Denying History was a major precondition for there to be a sub-forum on Holocaust denial here, but not a sufficient precondition since the sub-forum didn't exist when the forum was first set up.

The earliest threads in the sub-forum date to the latter part of 2005, eleven years ago. Virtually none of the current participants in this sub-forum were posting then at all - with the major exception of 'David', who evidently started enough threads denying the Holocaust that the management separated out the topic from the history forum, justifying this in part also because of Shermer's book on the subject.

By contrast, the Skeptics Society Forum does not have a dedicated separate 9/11 conspiracy theories subforum, whereas the International Skeptics Forum, the successor to the JREF forum, does have a separate sub forum dedicated to discussing 9/11 conspiracy theories. ISF/JREF has confined discussion of Holocaust denial to a single thread in their conspiracy theories sub-forum, so that the topic of Holocaust denial appears alongside things like JFK assassination conspiracy theories (which likewise has a single thread for the whole topic) over there.

Because SSF has an entire sub-forum for Holocaust denial, then naturally it has become a place where people interested in this phenomenon gather virtually to conduct leisurely discussions about this topic and related issues. This includes exchanging tips and comments on the scholarly and popular historiographies of the Holocaust, Nazi Germany and the Second World War. Participants have varying levels of knowledge of these histories, so a big emphasis is on sharing information, either via links or from publications.

While this might resemble many other forums where specific topics are discussed by aficionados and neophytes, the difference here is that there are occasional interventions from Holocaust deniers, which then lead to arguments over how the information is to be interpreted - arguments which are relatively intractable not because of 'unresolvable data' but because one side flouts the rules of empirical verification that are standard in the humanities and social sciences, and is also ignorant of how people actually "do history".

Several participants in this sub-forum have studied history to postgraduate level, including Balsamo and Statistical Mechanic, while I actually teach history at undergraduate and postgraduate university level. This includes teaching on a course about the varied 'Uses of the Past' including the politicisation of history, as well as historical theory courses at master's level.

Let me therefore join Balsamo and Statistical Mechanic in saying you really don't know what the hell you are talking about regarding history.

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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:23 am

Scott Mayers wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote:...Those 'searches' you do CONTRIBUTE to how Google opts to place those on top just as the site here has placed this topic up front...
(my emphasis)

Whut?

What's your confusion? Oh wait, ....it's a statement. Thanks for asking telling. :?

Seriously, Scott, I don't understand what you mean by that statement. How has this site (the Skepticforum) put this topic/subforum (Holocaust Denial) "up front"?


(BTW, there's an opt out function in the UCP some use to make this subforum invisible to them. But from what I gather, you consider such an action rude - but, curiously, not attacking users for exercising their freedoms and using a provided space. Kinda odd, eh?)

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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Xcalibur » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:08 am

Why do you even engage with this {!#%@} moron? If you didn't bother,
he'd go away. Terry cut to the chase. Endkampfe. he's a {!#%@}' bonehead.

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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:30 am

Googling "do a barrel roll" is fun.

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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Xcalibur » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:10 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Googling "do a barrel roll" is fun.


In an airplane... fools like this, not so much.

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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Scott Mayers » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:10 am

Balsamo wrote:
An EXAMPLE of HOW you COULD be scientific here is to discuss whether history is something we should 'construct' based on our present experience or whether you COULD prove whether Joe Schmo down in Arkansas spilled 2 liters of milk, 1.2 liters or a quart.


Construction of History? Use of anachronism?

:roll:

I can see you actually never studied the 'science' of history. There is one and why I mentioned that. Instead of debating what HAPPENED, would you not think it more beneficial to debate HOW each understands the logic behind what and how people perceive of things historically?

"Construction" or "reconstruction" is one example of the philosophical/scientific questioning of how we can infer information from data about history. If you debate others with some problem you deem is about facts, what good does it do to argue of HOW MUCH milk was spilled when that is TRIVIA(L). There's a clear divide in this just by seeing how some think INTELLIGENCE is how MUCH you know about trivia versus LOGIC. And to be more productive, discussions AGAINST some subset of people here who 'deny' history would be better spent not targeting them but appealing to their sense of reasoning.
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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Scott Mayers » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:21 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote:
Balsamo wrote:I am pretty sure that there are forums dedicated to "something else" and "science" and even "critical thinking"...This subforum bears the title of "Holocaust denial", this does not mean that we are not dealing with other topics.
Good luck in your search for the perfect forum...

I'm not going away. I'm complaining that you guys are playing petty games of who did what and when. That's NOT science nor critical thinking.

An EXAMPLE of HOW you COULD be scientific here is to discuss whether history is something we should 'construct' based on our present experience or whether you COULD prove whether Joe Schmo down in Arkansas spilled 2 liters of milk, 1.2 liters or a quart.

I just don't see how this kind of topic does more than debate data that is contingently unable to be resolved. So it's a social game only, not science nor critical thinking.


Why are you here, Scott? Instead of complaining, feel free to open a topic you'd like to discuss. This is a HISTORY sub forum, in spite of the title. We discuss lots of things, not only dealing with the Holocaust but other subjects attached to WW II. My first interest is military history, for example, I enjoy when Matthew talks about military hardware.

So, you can always talk about something regarding the war, if that is your interest. We devoted a topic to the bombing campaign, if that suits you.

But, we do discuss the Holocaust. We don't consider that "petty." It is one of the defining events of the 20th Century. We want to talk about it because of its importance. Deniers do come here, we break down their arguments to show how useless they are.

If you don't like that feel free to discuss whatever you want somewhere else...elswhere on this forum there are lots of things to talk about. I've posted on subjects that interest me that have nothing to do with history.

But, don't come here and complain. We will continue because it is something that interests us. If you aren't interested go somewhere else.

I complained because I see the topic is complaining about something you guys are just as guilty of creating and keeping alive. There are 'bots' from Google that come here and link such 'titles' to the number of interested feedback and use that to determine what should be LISTED when someone does a search. The 'crap' rises to the top and others think that it must mean its a popular topic so let's join in. Then they see the discrepancies but the debates get reduced to questions of 'trivia' that lack any sensible means to resolve.

You also create and foster those who are suffering to feel forced to take sides in the very kind of logical reasoning that leads to Nationalistic uprisings, often because they are accused of being something they are not. The topic here was 'Google's' listings of this topic. And if your dumb-found about this, THIS is why I spoke up.

Reminds me of a line of some comedian speaking of how he appeared to be disgusted about some act. (I can't remember which) He spoke on how disturbing it was that it existed and then ended with: "It was the most disgusting thing I ever watched!"
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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Scott Mayers » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:25 am


Cool.....a great example of this intolerant behavior. Innuendo by associating me with topics of participating without context. I don't recall any of these headings. Please inform us all what views you think I hold and have spoken on in these.
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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Scott Mayers » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:35 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote:I'm not going away.
Go away Scott. You directly lied in another thread when you claimed you had statistical evidence that increasing the price of cigarettes does not reduce demand. You lied.

The sub forum you are posting in is 100% evidence based. Try another sub forum.

Ahh,...now here's an example of the bullying stepping in. What do you serve here Matthew other than blanket accusations of 'lying'. You know that ACT of 'lying' is an intention, right? And now your bandwagoning is a clear example of your own sincerity.

I am certain you aren't a real lawyer either! 8-)
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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Scott Mayers » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:47 am

nickterry wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote:
Balsamo wrote:I am pretty sure that there are forums dedicated to "something else" and "science" and even "critical thinking"...This subforum bears the title of "Holocaust denial", this does not mean that we are not dealing with other topics.
Good luck in your search for the perfect forum...

I'm not going away. I'm complaining that you guys are playing petty games of who did what and when. That's NOT science nor critical thinking.

An EXAMPLE of HOW you COULD be scientific here is to discuss whether history is something we should 'construct' based on our present experience or whether you COULD prove whether Joe Schmo down in Arkansas spilled 2 liters of milk, 1.2 liters or a quart.

I just don't see how this kind of topic does more than debate data that is contingently unable to be resolved. So it's a social game only, not science nor critical thinking.


You're absolutely correct that there is a social game going on - instigated by a small minority of Holocaust deniers. The social game takes place locally, here on the Skeptics Society Forum, as well as elsewhere on the internet. The social game of asking whether the Holocaust happened or denying it outright has nothing to do with how history is practiced in real life, i.e. by students and researchers. Studying history or doing historical research are not "social games". Nor are they reducible to contemporary politics, or any other handwaving dismissal of the practice of history. (Saying that history is "not science" is likely to provoke a degree of mirth among those who have studied the discipline of history at university level, since we overcame physics envy many decades ago.)

Some deniers chose to sign up to Skeptics Society Forum a decade or more ago, in part because Michael Shermer, whose association with the Skeptics Society I hope is clear enough, had written a book about Holocaust denial in 2000. The fact that Michael Shermer and Alex Grobman wrote a book entitled Denying History was a major precondition for there to be a sub-forum on Holocaust denial here, but not a sufficient precondition since the sub-forum didn't exist when the forum was first set up.

The earliest threads in the sub-forum date to the latter part of 2005, eleven years ago. Virtually none of the current participants in this sub-forum were posting then at all - with the major exception of 'David', who evidently started enough threads denying the Holocaust that the management separated out the topic from the history forum, justifying this in part also because of Shermer's book on the subject.

By contrast, the Skeptics Society Forum does not have a dedicated separate 9/11 conspiracy theories subforum, whereas the International Skeptics Forum, the successor to the JREF forum, does have a separate sub forum dedicated to discussing 9/11 conspiracy theories. ISF/JREF has confined discussion of Holocaust denial to a single thread in their conspiracy theories sub-forum, so that the topic of Holocaust denial appears alongside things like JFK assassination conspiracy theories (which likewise has a single thread for the whole topic) over there.

Because SSF has an entire sub-forum for Holocaust denial, then naturally it has become a place where people interested in this phenomenon gather virtually to conduct leisurely discussions about this topic and related issues. This includes exchanging tips and comments on the scholarly and popular historiographies of the Holocaust, Nazi Germany and the Second World War. Participants have varying levels of knowledge of these histories, so a big emphasis is on sharing information, either via links or from publications.

While this might resemble many other forums where specific topics are discussed by aficionados and neophytes, the difference here is that there are occasional interventions from Holocaust deniers, which then lead to arguments over how the information is to be interpreted - arguments which are relatively intractable not because of 'unresolvable data' but because one side flouts the rules of empirical verification that are standard in the humanities and social sciences, and is also ignorant of how people actually "do history".

Several participants in this sub-forum have studied history to postgraduate level, including Balsamo and Statistical Mechanic, while I actually teach history at undergraduate and postgraduate university level. This includes teaching on a course about the varied 'Uses of the Past' including the politicisation of history, as well as historical theory courses at master's level.

Let me therefore join Balsamo and Statistical Mechanic in saying you really don't know what the hell you are talking about regarding history.

As you should read above, I think HISTORY as a topic IS worthy of a scientific/philosophic take. But its a difference to discuss the logic of history as a science than to a specifically targeted subtopic as a devoted issue of concern. It is then a social game. For a different subject comparison, "Linguistics" is the science of language. But if one labeled the title of this topic as "English", then the BIAS is clear. Those who think the PARTICULAR language is 'science' when it is just an arbitrary subset of discussion IN Linguistics.

You mentioned the fact of JREF to have a dedicated subforum for 9/11 conspiracies. This tells you that the site has a bias towards American perception of significance and FAVOR to the established story, NOT that it is necessarily a mere 'free' unbiased forum.

I've already dedicated enough on this and don't care for any of you FOR your arrogant hatreds of others as is clear of HOW you behave. You're no different to me THAN those you accuse of being 'deniers',....you're just in 'denial' yourselves.

;) Peace.
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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Scott Mayers » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:21 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote:...Those 'searches' you do CONTRIBUTE to how Google opts to place those on top just as the site here has placed this topic up front...
(my emphasis)

Whut?

What's your confusion? Oh wait, ....it's a statement. Thanks for asking telling. :?

Seriously, Scott, I don't understand what you mean by that statement. How has this site (the Skepticforum) put this topic/subforum (Holocaust Denial) "up front"?


(BTW, there's an opt out function in the UCP some use to make this subforum invisible to them. But from what I gather, you consider such an action rude - but, curiously, not attacking users for exercising their freedoms and using a provided space. Kinda odd, eh?)

I DON'T care, if that's what you actually believe. But the topic is questioning WHY a search engine would list this topic itself ABOVE all others, when this site is doing just that!! Duh?

The 'forum' here is a PARENT folder, not a sub-folder under 'conspiracy theories'. This is no different than Google placing it at its 'top'. It says that people find it more valid than it is.
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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Scott Mayers » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:31 am

Xcalibur wrote:Why do you even engage with this {!#%@} moron? If you didn't bother,
he'd go away. Terry cut to the chase. Endkampfe. he's a {!#%@}' bonehead.


HMMM?...

YES, give up talking about those DELUDED supposed "Holocaust Deniers" and they go away!! But if you have such 'wisdom', then I question your integrity: Why, if you are sincere, should anyone trust that you are not actually the using this platform to falsely create an enemy that doesn't exist? AND you do it with a mask!??
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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Nessie » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:40 am

Scott Mayers wrote:...... And to be more productive, discussions AGAINST some subset of people here who 'deny' history would be better spent not targeting them but appealing to their sense of reasoning.


I have tried that, particularly on the RODOH forum. Instead of understanding that their arguments are based on the use of fallacies, whereas it should be evidenced based, they just go onto repeat with their argument of "if not A (they deny there was mass gassing and shooting because the evidence for it is based on all the witnesses lying and all the physical claims are impossible) therefore B (mass survival of those supposedly gassed and shot, despite being unable to evidence their survival).

There is a hardcore who will not budge and their is no appealing to their sense of reasoning. Why it is worth debating with them is so that those who do google "did the holocaust happen?", go on to read places such as RODOH and do have a sense of reasoning will see that the deniers have no sense of reasoning and their beliefs are wrong.
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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Nessie » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:44 am

Scott Mayers wrote:......
I DON'T care, if that's what you actually believe. But the topic is questioning WHY a search engine would list this topic itself ABOVE all others, when this site is doing just that!! Duh?

The 'forum' here is a PARENT folder, not a sub-folder under 'conspiracy theories'. This is no different than Google placing it at its 'top'. It says that people find it more valid than it is.


That is not what this topic was about. I would expect this site, RODOH and Stormfront etc to be top of the search lists when the search is "did the Holocaust happen?".

The point is that on searching "did the hol" the top results are not about Holywood, holidays or anything else beginning with hol. They are about the Holocaust. Then the results are a majority of "no" it did not happen.
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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Nessie » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:01 pm

Scott Mayers wrote:.....

YES, give up talking about those DELUDED supposed "Holocaust Deniers" and they go away!! But if you have such 'wisdom', then I question your integrity: Why, if you are sincere, should anyone trust that you are not actually the using this platform to falsely create an enemy that doesn't exist? AND you do it with a mask!??


Holocaust denial has been around since the war itself as Nazis were hiding the existence of a plan to kill the Jewish population who were still in Nazi controlled territory after;

"....the prohibition of Jewish emigration in the autumn of 1941...." Korherr Report, Part V.

After the war most Nazis adopted the tactic of admitting it did take place, but trying to limit their role and/or claim they acted under orders. Despite that others still did not accept there was mass gassing and shooting. One of the very first Holocaust denial works to be published was by Gaston-Armand Amaudruz in Switzerland in 1949. He was born in 1920, is still alive, still publishing and served a prison sentence for denial in 2000, aged 80. Holocaust denial spread and by the 1960s was a movement in the USA.

Holocaust deniers are not an invented enemy. If we leave them unchallenged, their deeply flawed and unevidenced claims will continue to spread.
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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Scott Mayers » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:07 pm

This is just reminding me of a South Park episode a few years back where the kids have noticed that the parents are all obsessed with watching a dedicated channel on murders. The parents are all getting turned on to this as though it were 'pornography'. (See Informative Murder Porn) I recommend checking the episode out. They've covered this theme before in other episodes too. But the LOGIC that is not being ironically grasped is that the very reason such topics are significant contrary to the way we seem to 'believe' in the general population is because the very weirdness of people's behavior are 'porn' fantasies that hide the nature of those entertained by them.

Have you ever notice that for " SUPER heroes" to exist, requires the "SUPER villians"? OR, have you ever noticed one who fails to become one for trying hard, they take on BEING the opposite? Why is it that certain extreme criminals have some history of trying to become a cop? Or that one successfully becomes a cop for violently opposing the criminals they've known?

People take extremes because they relate to their opposite in some way. They THRIVE on the opposition to exist if only to make them stand out by contrast.
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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby nickterry » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:08 pm

Scott Mayers wrote:As you should read above, I think HISTORY as a topic IS worthy of a scientific/philosophic take. But its a difference to discuss the logic of history as a science than to a specifically targeted subtopic as a devoted issue of concern. It is then a social game.

For a different subject comparison, "Linguistics" is the science of language. But if one labeled the title of this topic as "English", then the BIAS is clear. Those who think the PARTICULAR language is 'science' when it is just an arbitrary subset of discussion IN Linguistics.

You mentioned the fact of JREF to have a dedicated subforum for 9/11 conspiracies. This tells you that the site has a bias towards American perception of significance and FAVOR to the established story, NOT that it is necessarily a mere 'free' unbiased forum.

I've already dedicated enough on this and don't care for any of you FOR your arrogant hatreds of others as is clear of HOW you behave. You're no different to me THAN those you accuse of being 'deniers',....you're just in 'denial' yourselves.

;) Peace.


This is a severe muddle of different issues.

1. I've explained the historic reasons why this forum, SSF, has a Holocaust denial sub-forum. Other forums don't, yet other forums also have 'narrower' topic-specific discussions. Many topics, including Holocaust denial, also have dedicated forums, subreddits, blogs, etc.

2. Take it up with forum management if you have an objection to the existence of a separate Holocaust denial sub-forum at Skeptics Society Forum. Complaining about it to the membership isn't going to get you very far and is boorish.

3. The history sub-forum here discusses "specifically targeted subtopics". This is how history is usually discussed - empirically, which means focusing on specific topics. There's little appetite for discussing the philosophical underpinnings of historical knowledge.

4. As you can observe, the history sub-forum has 375 topics versus 1,110 in the Holocaust denial sub-forum. It should be really obvious why there's a separate forum here locally due to this imbalance. Who caused this imbalance? Hundreds of threads were started by a very small number of Holocaust deniers. Hundreds more have been started by their opponents.

5. Your both-sides-ism is banal and confused. You haven't been following these discussions closely enough to realise that members who post in this sub-forum spend a lot of time discussing the Holocaust as history, without interference from deniers. Increasingly the members do more of this than they spend time arguing with deniers. The members have been brought here by their interest in understanding or combating denial, but also all have an interest in the conventional history. There are thus threads on 'General Books/Reading Discussion' where conventional history books are recommended and discussed.
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26239

6. The potential contribution of this particular sub-forum to google searches is relatively limited. There are 1,110 threads here with 43,820 posts. There are many other "Holocaust revisionism" forums at CODOH, RODOH and Stormfront which are far bigger. There are several hundred websites pushing Holocaust revisionism. There are very few websites countering Holocaust denial. If someone googles a thread in this forum then they are somewhat more likely to encounter sensible discussion than they are to be fed propaganda from deniers. So if SSF's HD section does show up in a generic google search, this is a good thing. Axis History Forum might also show up on such searches - they simply discuss the history of WWII and related wars, and ban overt Holocaust denial entirely as a distraction and as an obviously ideological position.

7. The logic of complaining about counter-arguments is entirely flawed - is creationism stimulated by TalkOrigins and debunking blog posts by biologists and scientists? Are ancient aliens TV programs more likely to be made because a blog run by Jason Colavito ridicules and criticises them for their nonsensical arguments?

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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Scott Mayers » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:28 pm

Nessie wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote:.....

YES, give up talking about those DELUDED supposed "Holocaust Deniers" and they go away!! But if you have such 'wisdom', then I question your integrity: Why, if you are sincere, should anyone trust that you are not actually the using this platform to falsely create an enemy that doesn't exist? AND you do it with a mask!??


Holocaust denial has been around since the war itself as Nazis were hiding the existence of a plan to kill the Jewish population who were still in Nazi controlled territory after;

"....the prohibition of Jewish emigration in the autumn of 1941...." Korherr Report, Part V.

After the war most Nazis adopted the tactic of admitting it did take place, but trying to limit their role and/or claim they acted under orders. Despite that others still did not accept there was mass gassing and shooting. One of the very first Holocaust denial works to be published was by Gaston-Armand Amaudruz in Switzerland in 1949. He was born in 1920, is still alive, still publishing and served a prison sentence for denial in 2000, aged 80. Holocaust denial spread and by the 1960s was a movement in the USA.

Holocaust deniers are not an invented enemy. If we leave them unchallenged, their deeply flawed and unevidenced claims will continue to spread.

The "Neo-Nazis" are a caricatured extreme of the historical "Nazis" only. The population of those times WERE ALL literally suffering, Jews AND German 'Natives/Aboriginals'. This is nothing new nor unique. But if we focus on merely POINTING OUT THAT the atrocities occurred and NOT to 'why', its no mystery why others would ask, "HOW could anyone do such things?" The answers that such attention get are black-and-white: There are Good guys and Bad guys. But this doesn't actually help but only makes those being accused of being the 'Bad' to angrily refute the logic of their own intentions.

I saw this once in a daily talk show here in Canada once that was run by a Jewish 'strong' conservative right-fighter against the Neo-nazi supporters. But she began having guests of caricatured Nazis representing proof of this. Some in the crowd who were German children but spoke up to say that they personally didn't "OWN" the fault but feel they are being penalized for it. The regular Jewish ladies who came often to the show stood up and started tackling this girl for not recognizing her ONUS to be in debt to her parent's (or German relatives) sins. It didn't matter. The girl was polite and non-extreme. But then the host even joined the attack and the shaming.

I can assure you that the show was cancelled soon after for this behavior as it continued to escalate. And this was NOT due to some realistic presence of Neo-nazis but to innocent children of children merely related to the parents of these crimes. Even though the direct connection to the logic wasn't there, all that mattered is that everyone interpreted this as a Black-and-white CLEAR case of demanding others to be 'with them' or 'with the enemy'. And this is precisely the logic that enhances the opposite, even if non-existent, to rise. If one is being ignored a right to jobs and being expected to act as sacrificial lambs for some past injustice, those targeted individuals become the next VICTIMS and MUST stand up or accept their fate.

It's cyclic. And the 'solution' is to stop the accusations and deal with the logic in an more neutral ground. Look at how present Colombia is handling their prior problems this way. Does this not appeal to you?
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Re: Google is being dominated by Holocaust denial sites

Postby Nessie » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:38 pm

What appeals to me is challenging the very real existence of Holocaust denial, which will not go away if we just ignore it.
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