Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Monstrous
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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Monstrous » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:35 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:The communists were demonstrably awful at forgeries of any kind. If so much as a single document was a Soviet forgery, any one of thousands of historians from across the world that have studies the issue would have brought awareness by now. The fact that no such thing has happened is telling.


There are countless revisionists pining away in thought prisons for trying to bring awareness...

Give us an estimate. About how many? Name them or I don't believe you. You make stuff up all the time.

Monstrous has a recollection of reading that there are thousands of people convicted of political crimes in Germany which includes Holocaust revisionism.

Cough up the damned names, liar.

Did you not hear that Monstrous stated "countless"? Most victims are unknown. Forgotten by history. Such as some youth sneaking out at night to spray Holocaust revisionist graffiti or someone being found to have illicit Holocaust revisionist books hidden at home. And after being caught being sent to some nameless German Gulag without notice in newspapers or by Amnesty.
Last edited by Monstrous on Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:36 pm

12 {!#%@} notifications, holy {!#%@}, I'll get through em.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:40 pm

Monstrous wrote:There are countless revisionists pining away in thought prisons for trying to bring awareness...


No, {!#%@}, you missed the point completely and resorted to non-sequitur. I was referring to real historians, thousands of which have examined Soviet archives, many of which are familiar with classic 1930's Stalinist fakery. Not one has pointed out even one document as forged. Denier chumps like Rudolf and Porter don't count. The former is a washed-out failed chemist, the latter is a mental patient.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:44 pm

Monstrous wrote:But the Believers state that Hitler had confessed the Holocaust in his public speeches!

Why then would Bormann deny this?


Bormann's memo was a change of tone and resort to absolute secrecy. The German public was becoming increasingly aware of what was going on, soldiers would write to their families about it, Hans-Joachim Marsaille, the famed Luftwaffe pilot, overheard SS officers discussing it at a party in Berlin and informed his squadron mates. It was apparently common knowledge among Reichsbahn workers. Bormann's circular was an effort to clamp down on the rumor mill.

Thus did not prevent Hitler from acknowledging it in private to Horthy in 1943.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:49 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:The communists were demonstrably awful at forgeries of any kind. If so much as a single document was a Soviet forgery, any one of thousands of historians from across the world that have studies the issue would have brought awareness by now. The fact that no such thing has happened is telling.


There are countless revisionists pining away in thought prisons for trying to bring awareness...

Give us an estimate. About how many? Name them or I don't believe you. You make stuff up all the time.

Monstrous has a recollection of reading that there are thousands of people convicted of political crimes in Germany which includes Holocaust revisionism.

Cough up the damned names, liar.

Did you not hear that Monstrous stated "countless"? Most victims are unknown. Forgotten by history. Such as some youth sneaking out at night to spray Holocaust revisionist graffiti or someone being found to have illicit Holocaust revisionist books hidden at home. And after being caught being sent to some nameless German Gulag without notice in newspapers or by Amnesty.

in your debilitated brain - in other words
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:52 pm

Monstrous wrote:The Koherr Report wrote about deportations from non-Russian territories to Russian territories and in a few instances of deportations from some Russian territories such as the Baltic states which had until the war been independent. The sentence
"The above numbers do not include the inmates of ghettoes and concentration camps" do not include the Russian ghettos and camps.


No, the sentence was in reference to the fact that the deported persons were not sent to Russian ghettos or camps, but rather to other locations (namely death camps). That's what it means. The fact that you could read it in any other way is a telling indicator of just how much of a {!#%@} numbskull you are. Where do you propose that the Jews listed in the Koherr report went?. As stated before, they were not sent to ghettos and camps, that much is written down it it explicitly. Also: population data from the Nazi occupied eastern territories at the time is incompatible with any large transfer of persons.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:54 pm

Monstrous wrote:There are many statements stating the deportation of Jews to the east of these camps. Such as by Bormann in the OP and in the Korherr Report the sentence "The following numbers were sifted
through the camps in the General government".


That sentence originally stated "the following numbers were specially treated in the camps of the General Government" or some variation thereof. Contemporary correspondence proves this.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:55 pm

Monstrous wrote:Did you not hear that Monstrous stated "countless"? Most victims are unknown. Forgotten by history. Such as some youth sneaking out at night to spray Holocaust revisionist graffiti or someone being found to have illicit Holocaust revisionist books hidden at home. And after being caught being sent to some nameless German Gulag without notice in newspapers or by Amnesty.


Steve? Steve Willow? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:57 pm

Monstrous wrote:The numbers can likely be discussed and there were lots of camps/ghettos east of the AR camps. Anyhow, there were likely lots of empty housing available due to Soviet conscription, evacuations to Siberia, and prewar deaths such as due to the Holodomor and wartime deaths - tens of millions of deaths, likely.


Explain the passage in the Koherr report and the population data from RK Ukraine and RK Ostland! I forbid you from speculating on where your imaginary deportees were housed until you confront the evidence that proves they were not sent to these territories at all.

Spoiler:
You cant. :lol:

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:10 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:To deflect attention from their own behavior. Duh!

Problem is that the record shows the Soviets underplaying, omitting, and writing the Jews out of the mass murder/extermination campaigns. What they were doing was not ginning up the Holocaust, as much as you whine.

Soviets "underplaying, omitting, and writing the Jews out of the mass murder/extermination campaigns" does not mean that the Soviets didn't fabricate evidence in an effort to blame one of their war crimes on the Germans. In fact, they're both examples of Soviet disinformation campaigns and therefore, examples of why Soviet sources cannot be trusted.
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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:16 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:The communists were demonstrably awful at forgeries of any kind. If so much as a single document was a Soviet forgery, any one of thousands of historians from across the world that have studies the issue would have brought awareness by now. The fact that no such thing has happened is telling.


There are countless revisionists pining away in thought prisons for trying to bring awareness...

Give us an estimate. About how many? Name them or I don't believe you. You make stuff up all the time.

Monstrous has a recollection of reading that there are thousands of people convicted of political crimes in Germany which includes Holocaust revisionism.

Cough up the damned names, liar.

Here's a good place to start
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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:35 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:To deflect attention from their own behavior. Duh!

Problem is that the record shows the Soviets underplaying, omitting, and writing the Jews out of the mass murder/extermination campaigns. What they were doing was not ginning up the Holocaust, as much as you whine.

Soviets "underplaying, omitting, and writing the Jews out of the mass murder/extermination campaigns" does not mean that the Soviets didn't fabricate evidence in an effort to blame one of their war crimes on the Germans. In fact, they're both examples of Soviet disinformation campaigns and therefore, examples of why Soviet sources cannot be trusted.

No one here is "trusting" Soviet sources. And, yes, the Soviet suppression that the Jews were being exterminated, when they held evidence of the mass murder, pretty much does away with the claim that the evidence for, er, the mass extermination of the Jews was tarted up by the Commies.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:37 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:The communists were demonstrably awful at forgeries of any kind. If so much as a single document was a Soviet forgery, any one of thousands of historians from across the world that have studies the issue would have brought awareness by now. The fact that no such thing has happened is telling.


There are countless revisionists pining away in thought prisons for trying to bring awareness...

Give us an estimate. About how many? Name them or I don't believe you. You make stuff up all the time.

Monstrous has a recollection of reading that there are thousands of people convicted of political crimes in Germany which includes Holocaust revisionism.

Cough up the damned names, liar.

Here's a good place to start

Not following. Since when is possibly 2 "countless"?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:53 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:The communists were demonstrably awful at forgeries of any kind. If so much as a single document was a Soviet forgery, any one of thousands of historians from across the world that have studies the issue would have brought awareness by now. The fact that no such thing has happened is telling.


There are countless revisionists pining away in thought prisons for trying to bring awareness...

Give us an estimate. About how many? Name them or I don't believe you. You make stuff up all the time.

Monstrous has a recollection of reading that there are thousands of people convicted of political crimes in Germany which includes Holocaust revisionism.

Cough up the damned names, liar.

Here's a good place to start


There are 20 people on that list. Not "thousands."

That's hysterical.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby nickterry » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:58 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Soviets "underplaying, omitting, and writing the Jews out of the mass murder/extermination campaigns" does not mean that the Soviets didn't fabricate evidence in an effort to blame one of their war crimes on the Germans. In fact, they're both examples of Soviet disinformation campaigns and therefore, examples of why Soviet sources cannot be trusted.


Have you informed Sheila Fitzpatrick, J. Arch Getty, Nicolas Werth or Terry Martin of this earth-shattering conclusion? I'm curious how you think historians of the Soviet Union write their history if "Soviet sources" aren't to be trusted. After all it's not like most of the things they write about are corroborated by Nazi sources, or Polish sources, or Swiss sources, or Latvian and Lithuanian nationalist sources, like the Holocaust in the Soviet Union is corroborated by such sources.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:00 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:The communists were demonstrably awful at forgeries of any kind. If so much as a single document was a Soviet forgery, any one of thousands of historians from across the world that have studies the issue would have brought awareness by now. The fact that no such thing has happened is telling.


There are countless revisionists pining away in thought prisons for trying to bring awareness...

Give us an estimate. About how many? Name them or I don't believe you. You make stuff up all the time.

Monstrous has a recollection of reading that there are thousands of people convicted of political crimes in Germany which includes Holocaust revisionism.

Cough up the damned names, liar.

Did you not hear that Monstrous stated "countless"? Most victims are unknown. Forgotten by history. Such as some youth sneaking out at night to spray Holocaust revisionist graffiti or someone being found to have illicit Holocaust revisionist books hidden at home. And after being caught being sent to some nameless German Gulag without notice in newspapers or by Amnesty.


You can't see this but I read that and laughed hysterically for about five minutes.

Nameless German Gulag?????????

I've changed my mind, Monstrous.

Here's your trophy:

:award:

I've moved you to the top of my list. Not even Jim ever said anything so stupid.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:06 pm

Here you go, Monstrous:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27156&p=542049#p542049

Congratulations, buddy. You've earned it.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:17 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:The communists were demonstrably awful at forgeries of any kind. If so much as a single document was a Soviet forgery, any one of thousands of historians from across the world that have studies the issue would have brought awareness by now. The fact that no such thing has happened is telling.


There are countless revisionists pining away in thought prisons for trying to bring awareness...

Give us an estimate. About how many? Name them or I don't believe you. You make stuff up all the time.

Monstrous has a recollection of reading that there are thousands of people convicted of political crimes in Germany which includes Holocaust revisionism.

Cough up the damned names, liar.

Here's a good place to start


There are 20 people on that list. Not "thousands."

That's hysterical.

There are potentially 2 relevant names. Monstrous wrote about people presently imprisoned: "There are countless revisionists pining away in thought prisons."
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:33 pm

nickterry wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Soviets "underplaying, omitting, and writing the Jews out of the mass murder/extermination campaigns" does not mean that the Soviets didn't fabricate evidence in an effort to blame one of their war crimes on the Germans. In fact, they're both examples of Soviet disinformation campaigns and therefore, examples of why Soviet sources cannot be trusted.


Have you informed Sheila Fitzpatrick, J. Arch Getty, Nicolas Werth or Terry Martin of this earth-shattering conclusion? I'm curious how you think historians of the Soviet Union write their history if "Soviet sources" aren't to be trusted. After all it's not like most of the things they write about are corroborated by Nazi sources, or Polish sources, or Swiss sources, or Latvian and Lithuanian nationalist sources, like the Holocaust in the Soviet Union is corroborated by such sources.

Yoo-hoo, Monstrous, Mary: this is what we were trying to get you to understand above. Also, as can be seen in my long post about archival findings on how the Soviets buried information about the Jewish extermination, you can see how historians - by comparing documents and studying what officials write, say, and do - can piece together what happened - that is, by using the "Soviet sources" you assure us are not usable.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby nickterry » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:54 pm

Maryzilla hasn't read any Soviet sources.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:55 pm

LOL or many others for that matter!
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby NathanC » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:05 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:There are many statements stating the deportation of Jews to the east of these camps. Such as by Bormann in the OP and in the Korherr Report the sentence "The following numbers were sifted
through the camps in the General government".


That sentence originally stated "the following numbers were specially treated in the camps of the General Government" or some variation thereof. Contemporary correspondence proves this.


Not only that, the report itself makes it clear that "deportation" was a cover story for Murder. The last part of the long form mentions that "of the deaths of Soviet Jews only a part was recorded", whereas deaths in the rest of European Russia and the front are not recorded at all". The only mention of "Russian Jews" in the entire report was the part about the RSHA's data on "resettlement in the occupied eastern territories", nowhere else. Translation: they weren't "resettled", they were being killed and the "deaths" of Soviet Jews refers to them. Monstrous really is stupid if he's using this to"prove" some imaginary resettlement.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:09 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:You can't see this but I read that and laughed hysterically for about five minutes.

Nameless German Gulag?????????

I've changed my mind, Monstrous.

Here's your trophy:

:award:

I've moved you to the top of my list. Not even Jim ever said anything so stupid.


Not to mention "found to posses illegal denier books in home" LOLOLOLOL does he propose that the Bundespolitzei conducts random sweeps for "thought criminals"? Can he not distinguish reality from fiction, specifically the fiction of his own drug addled mind? Does he propose that modern day Germany is some kind of Stalinist Police State? This may be the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my entire life.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby NathanC » Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:24 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:You can't see this but I read that and laughed hysterically for about five minutes.

Nameless German Gulag?????????

I've changed my mind, Monstrous.

Here's your trophy:

:award:

I've moved you to the top of my list. Not even Jim ever said anything so stupid.


Not to mention "found to posses illegal denier books in home" LOLOLOLOL does he propose that the Bundespolitzei conducts random sweeps for "thought criminals"? Can he not distinguish reality from fiction, specifically the fiction of his own drug addled mind? Does he propose that modern day Germany is some kind of Stalinist Police State? This may be the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my entire life.


Plus, the law says that the Denial needs to be "in public" to be prosecutable. Monstrous doesn't even know the law he's supposed to be attacking.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:25 am

Hey Monstrous, help me out here, do you happen to be the individual who performed the sound effects in this video?

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:28 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:You can't see this but I read that and laughed hysterically for about five minutes.

Nameless German Gulag?????????

I've changed my mind, Monstrous.

Here's your trophy:

:award:

I've moved you to the top of my list. Not even Jim ever said anything so stupid.


Not to mention "found to posses illegal denier books in home" LOLOLOLOL does he propose that the Bundespolitzei conduct random sweeps?


I liked the remark about the kid spray painting revisionist slogans on the walls and getting sent to the German Gulag.

:lol:

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Monstrous » Sat Oct 29, 2016 12:52 pm

NathanC wrote:1) The example of Katyn is irrelevant to the Holocaust, and arguably adds to the reliability for the Soviet captured evidence for the Holocaust. As mentioned elsewhere, we know that the Soviets doctored the evidence for Katyn because they wanted it to appear that the Germans were responsible for it. However, we know that they didn't do the same thing for the evidence for the Holocaust because they did not want it to get out that the Jewish victims were killed for being Jews: as SM points out, the narrative was "internationalism" - all Soviet Nationalities were targeted equally and the Soviet peoples were united in the face of German brutality. The evidence for Katyn is dubious because it supports the Soviet Narrative. The evidence for the Holocaust is not dubious because it contradicts Soviet narrative, which is why most of it was buried in the Soviet archives. The Jager report and the Soldier's Diary that SM mentioned being examples

2) Moscow show trials aren't relevant to this discussion either. IMT and NMT defendants said some things that were not aligned with either the charges against them. Thus, we know they were not tortured and spoke of their own will.


Katyn was good for the anti-Communists as propaganda against the Communists unlike the Holocaust. Katyn proves that Communists used gigantic amounts of falsified evidence at the Nuremberg trials so they cannot be trusted.

Yes, the Soviets, at least while the increasingly anti-Semitic Stalin was in charge, wanted Slavs to be equal victims. But they did not "deny" the claim that Jews were genocided.

The Jaeger Report served Soviet interests by discrediting Lithuanian nationalism.

We know that some of the participants of the NMT and IMT were tortured or threatened. Some may simply have started to Believe that the Holocaust claims of the Allies were true despite having no personal knowledge of it. Anyhow, at the IMT and the NMT the Allies were not that interested in convicting specific individuals. Rather, they were interested in gaining support for their story and very willing to be lenient to those individuals supporting this. So in that regard it was different from the Moscow trials as well as obviously being somewhat more careful in not being so obvious show trials such as by allowing some dissent among those accused and so on.

More:
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p167_webera.html
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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Monstrous » Sat Oct 29, 2016 12:57 pm

The evidence for the Holocaust is not dubious because it contradicts Soviet narrative, which is why most of it was buried in the Soviet archives.

Really? What "most" evidence for the Holocaust is that supposed to be?

Revisionists like to cite what has been found in archives such as the many detailed documents on Auschwitz.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 29, 2016 1:53 pm

Monstrous wrote:
The evidence for the Holocaust is not dubious because it contradicts Soviet narrative, which is why most of it was buried in the Soviet archives.

Really? What "most" evidence for the Holocaust is that supposed to be?

Revisionists like to cite what has been found in archives such as the many detailed documents on Auschwitz.

Here’s some evidence for the Holocaust you keep pretending not to see:

evidence for where Warsaw Jews were taken in 1942 and what happened to them at the chief destination

sources for Babi Yar

Sources for Vilnius and Ponary

HC series on evidence for Jäger Report

evidence for SK-1005

forensic and other evidence of mass graves in the occupied USSR

more on mass graves and on Ponary

evidence regarding Chełmno and Łódź

summary of some key pieces of evidence regarding Treblinka

Hans' series at HC on gas vans

here and here for Treblinka’s gas chambers and denier claims about “steam”

201 posts on evidence for the Final Solution in France

some critical evidence for Auschwitz

key pieces of evidence cited by BRoI

So, revisionist genius, get discussing the evidence, the way you claim you do . . . we've been waiting for this for months.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:48 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:The communists were demonstrably awful at forgeries of any kind. If so much as a single document was a Soviet forgery, any one of thousands of historians from across the world that have studies the issue would have brought awareness by now. The fact that no such thing has happened is telling.


There are countless revisionists pining away in thought prisons for trying to bring awareness...

Give us an estimate. About how many? Name them or I don't believe you. You make stuff up all the time.

Monstrous has a recollection of reading that there are thousands of people convicted of political crimes in Germany which includes Holocaust revisionism.

Cough up the damned names, liar.

Here's a good place to start


There are 20 people on that list. Not "thousands."

That's hysterical.

There are potentially 2 relevant names. Monstrous wrote about people presently imprisoned: "There are countless revisionists pining away in thought prisons."

I said it's a good place to start, "start" being the operative word. And there are more than two names on that list.
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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Monstrous » Sat Oct 29, 2016 4:05 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
The evidence for the Holocaust is not dubious because it contradicts Soviet narrative, which is why most of it was buried in the Soviet archives.

Really? What "most" evidence for the Holocaust is that supposed to be?

Revisionists like to cite what has been found in archives such as the many detailed documents on Auschwitz.

Here’s some evidence for the Holocaust you keep pretending not to see:

Just links to random topics here. That is not what Monstrous asked for.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 29, 2016 4:08 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:The communists were demonstrably awful at forgeries of any kind. If so much as a single document was a Soviet forgery, any one of thousands of historians from across the world that have studies the issue would have brought awareness by now. The fact that no such thing has happened is telling.


There are countless revisionists pining away in thought prisons for trying to bring awareness...

Give us an estimate. About how many? Name them or I don't believe you. You make stuff up all the time.

Monstrous has a recollection of reading that there are thousands of people convicted of political crimes in Germany which includes Holocaust revisionism.

Cough up the damned names, liar.

Here's a good place to start


There are 20 people on that list. Not "thousands."

That's hysterical.

There are potentially 2 relevant names. Monstrous wrote about people presently imprisoned: "There are countless revisionists pining away in thought prisons."

I said it's a good place to start, "start" being the operative word. And there are more than two names on that list.

Of course there are but as I said two are relevant to what Monstrous claimed.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 29, 2016 4:10 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
The evidence for the Holocaust is not dubious because it contradicts Soviet narrative, which is why most of it was buried in the Soviet archives.

Really? What "most" evidence for the Holocaust is that supposed to be?

Revisionists like to cite what has been found in archives such as the many detailed documents on Auschwitz.

Here’s some evidence for the Holocaust you keep pretending not to see:

Just links to random topics here. That is not what Monstrous asked for.

Well, no {!#%@}, that's not what you asked for! LOL. We see that you still can't deal with the evidence on any of those topics. Ok. No one expected you to be able to. You've had a ton of shots at them.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby NathanC » Sat Oct 29, 2016 4:56 pm

Monstrous wrote:
NathanC wrote:1) The example of Katyn is irrelevant to the Holocaust, and arguably adds to the reliability for the Soviet captured evidence for the Holocaust. As mentioned elsewhere, we know that the Soviets doctored the evidence for Katyn because they wanted it to appear that the Germans were responsible for it. However, we know that they didn't do the same thing for the evidence for the Holocaust because they did not want it to get out that the Jewish victims were killed for being Jews: as SM points out, the narrative was "internationalism" - all Soviet Nationalities were targeted equally and the Soviet peoples were united in the face of German brutality. The evidence for Katyn is dubious because it supports the Soviet Narrative. The evidence for the Holocaust is not dubious because it contradicts Soviet narrative, which is why most of it was buried in the Soviet archives. The Jager report and the Soldier's Diary that SM mentioned being examples

2) Moscow show trials aren't relevant to this discussion either. IMT and NMT defendants said some things that were not aligned with either the charges against them. Thus, we know they were not tortured and spoke of their own will.


Katyn was good for the anti-Communists as propaganda against the Communists unlike the Holocaust. Katyn proves that Communists used gigantic amounts of falsified evidence at the Nuremberg trials so they cannot be trusted.


What the {!#%@} is this rubbish supposed to mean? The question we are discussing is about whether or not communists and only communists falsified evidence. What anticommunists want or do not want, or what's supposed to be good for them is irrelevant.

Katyn is an example of what actual falsification looks like. The evidence for the Holocaust does not match the example set by Katyn, first and foremost because most of it contradicted their narrative.


Yes, the Soviets, at least while the increasingly anti-Semitic Stalin was in charge, wanted Slavs to be equal victims. But they did not "deny" the claim that Jews were genocided.

The Jaeger Report served Soviet interests by discrediting Lithuanian nationalism.


The Jaeger report contradicted Soviet interests because it described Jews being killed for being Jews, and not because they were "Peaceful Soviet citizens" or whatnot. This is why it was not presented in the Nuremberg trials and hidden in the Soviet archives till the fifties. They edited their reports of the Babi Yar massacre and other anti Jewish killing actions to hide the fact that Jews were killed for being Jews. They blocked the Publication of the Black Book of Russian Jewry. That's denial, no way around it. You can't hide from the fact that there was no fakery, only the opposite.

We know that some of the participants of the NMT and IMT were tortured or threatened. Some may simply have started to Believe that the Holocaust claims of the Allies were true despite having no personal knowledge of it. Anyhow, at the IMT and the NMT the Allies were not that interested in convicting specific individuals. Rather, they were interested in gaining support for their story and very willing to be lenient to those individuals supporting this. So in that regard it was different from the Moscow trials as well as obviously being somewhat more careful in not being so obvious show trials such as by allowing some dissent among those accused and so on.
[/quote]

Monstrous is an idiot who has never read or studied the NMT and IMT in detail. Some of the defendants acted no differently from Defendants in countless trials around the world. This very thread was started by a Bormann Document presented at the IMT that, taken out of context, disproves the claim that the Jews were being exterminated. Konrad Morgen attempted to shift the blame away from German SS and towards non Germans who manned the camps, and tried to shift the criminal responsibility away from the SS by pinning the blame on the Fuhrer's chancellary. Rudolf Hoess shifted the date for the extermination order in an attempt to shift the responsibility from Kaltenbrunner to his predecessor, Heydrich. Otto Ohlendorf testified at the NMT that Jews were communists and deserved to die. There was no torture, all "accounts" spammed by Deniers are lies. If Hoess was tortured, it was because he was a murderer and his captors wanted a totally just revenge. Given the fact that he did his job and defended Kaltenbrunner on the stand, and even contradicted the Auschwitz death toll stated in the Soviet report and indictment, it is abundantly clear that any such "torture" was not very effective.

The IMT and NMT were interested in convicting specific individuals. That's why the IMT's indictment named specific individuals. The chief US prosecutor at the NMT mentioned that only 22 out of 20,000 suspects were even indicted, which shows Monstrous' fantasies that the NMT "was interested in gaining support for their story" are worthless BS.

Monstrous is a {!#%@} idiot.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby NathanC » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:04 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
The evidence for the Holocaust is not dubious because it contradicts Soviet narrative, which is why most of it was buried in the Soviet archives.

Really? What "most" evidence for the Holocaust is that supposed to be?

Revisionists like to cite what has been found in archives such as the many detailed documents on Auschwitz.

Here’s some evidence for the Holocaust you keep pretending not to see:

evidence for where Warsaw Jews were taken in 1942 and what happened to them at the chief destination

sources for Babi Yar

Sources for Vilnius and Ponary

HC series on evidence for Jäger Report

evidence for SK-1005

forensic and other evidence of mass graves in the occupied USSR

more on mass graves and on Ponary

evidence regarding Chełmno and Łódź

summary of some key pieces of evidence regarding Treblinka

Hans' series at HC on gas vans

here and here for Treblinka’s gas chambers and denier claims about “steam”

201 posts on evidence for the Final Solution in France

some critical evidence for Auschwitz

key pieces of evidence cited by BRoI

So, revisionist genius, get discussing the evidence, the way you claim you do . . . we've been waiting for this for months.


Lol, "Revisionists" are complete idiots who can't read or either spin what they can't read to distort all its meanings. Seriously, In the Majdanek thread, wasn't there a document quoted by Mattogno that explicitly talked about a gas chamber? Monstrous is an idiot.

He also missed the point: the Soviets hid most of the evidence they captured in their archives and they weren't accessible until the early 90s after the collapse of the Iron Curtain. That's the point I was trying to make, and it sailed right over his completely empty head.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:45 pm

But that is how the Reds set a trap: the many falsified documents, er, 10 or 100 or so, were hidden away so that they could be discovered after the fall of Communism. It's really very simple.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Monstrous » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:48 pm

NathanC wrote:He also missed the point: the Soviets hid most of the evidence they captured in their archives and they weren't accessible until the early 90s after the collapse of the Iron Curtain. That's the point I was trying to make, and it sailed right over his completely empty head.

So why cannot you quote any such massive amount supposedly buried in the archives? The Jaeger report is obviously an anti-Lithuanian ploy. But even if it was not, why would the Soviets publish it if it was supposedly against their own interest?

Again, what was hidden in the archives support the Revisionists. The Holocaust Handbooks series is filled with material uncovered from the archives.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Monstrous » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:57 pm

See this on the supposedly so "trustworthy" Soviets fabricating evidence of atrocities against Jews in order to discredit anti-Communist opposition:
http://www.iwp.edu/news_publications/de ... s-and-jews

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:28 pm

All righty then, everyone uses documents that are in former Soviet archives - but Monstrous doesn't like some of these documents. He won't identify which ones he thinks are fabricated, although he's been asked many times to do so. Except now and then, when he's confronted with a document that incriminates his heroes, then Monstrous throws the forgery card to try getting out of a jam.

Monstrous' argument amounts to this: because the Soviets fabricated evidence about Katyn, they therefore fabricated other evidence under different circumstances - or might have - or possibly in an alternative universe did - but Monstrous can't say which documents or prove what was supposedly done using evidence. This is a heck of an argument . . .

Back to Bormann, where did Monstrous say the Jews were deported to, now that he's decided to back off ghettos in Poland as one destination? Did he ever name any places or provide any evidence for large numbers of Jews having been transported to them?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:46 pm

Korherr believed the Jews settled in Lublin.

Monstrous, thoughts?


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