Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:29 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:I just checked and I can't find Stat Mech's answers to any of the questions he's been asked. I wonder if he forgot or if he is dodging?

You are very rude, Mary. I asked you politely, sort of, more or less, as politely as possible under the circumstances, which questions you meant and so did Matthew. You didn't even bother replying. Asswipe.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:45 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:. . . But also just making up {!#%@} as he goes along. Any examples of soldiers writing home to their families about it? No, of course not! . . . why would Bormann think a memo would have any effect on "the rumor mill"? Silly believers are just silly.

You mean other than evidence from Bormann's circular itself?
In the course of the work on the final solution of the Jewish problem, discussions about "very strict measures" against the Jews, especially in the Eastern territories, have lately been taking place within the population of the various areas of the Reich. Investigations showed that such discussions-mostly in a distorted and exaggerated form-were passed on by soldiers on leave from various units committed in the East, who had the opportunity to eye-witness these measures.

We've already in various thread discussed other evidence for rumors of the shootings spreading amongst Germans. You might want to google "Täubner." Or Kretschmer letters. No rumors? Have you read the SD and other secret reports on public opinion in Germany collected by Kulka & Jäckel (some examples here and here?

In his new book, Fritzsche discusses a very interesting collection of diaries relevant to this question - eight diaries kept by members of a Swiss medical team dispatched to Smolensk in October 1941. The team was sent to Smolensk, under the Swiss Red Cross to assist the Germans with medical work in the Smolensk area. Most members set out generally positively disposed toward the mission and the Germans, believing they'd be rendering humanitarian services. Fritzsche traces, using the diaries, how many team members grew disenchanted; the diaries contain summaries of frank discussions between the Swiss nurses, doctors, and other staff and German soldiers, many of them wounded men assisted by the Swiss medics. The topics discussed included German violence in the East, especially against POWs and Jews; the causes of the war and German war aims; perceptions of the East; treatment of POWs in general; and even the Geneva Convention (one German dismissing the convention as "crap - all nonsense").

A bit off topic but the Swiss medics were horrified by way the Germans handled POWs, transporting them in open trains, without sufficient food and without medical care. They observed corpses along the routes prisoners were taken, tossed from trains heading west. When they confronted the Germans about the corpses, the Swiss were told by a German official, "Those are Russians who died while being transported in the cattle and coal cars and were thrown out when the transport slowed down." And: "Basta! An easy funeral, free-of-charge." The Swiss counted 100s of corpses, and the Germans counseled them to harden themselves, as the Germans in the East had done, to focus on their duties.

As to Jews, in Minsk a Wehrmacht soldier explained to one of the Swiss team:
The Jews, they are fast disappearing. We already bumped off 1,600. There are just thirty left, mostly shoemakers and handymen. For now they have to work for us, then 'piff-paff.' And all of them, the elderly and children. . . . [W]e have had more than enough of that lot.

In Smolensk, two Swiss doctors observed a squad of half a dozen Jews forced to dig ditches in frozen ground; the prisoners' German guard told the Swiss doctors
You know, these poor devils - the whole thing disgusts me. As far as I am concerned, they can live, but I don't call the shots around here.

Later the doctors described the shallow graves they saw where the six captives had been digging.

One of the Swiss nurses carried on lengthy arguments with German soldiers about their actions and behavior in Smolensk. She recorded that one German soldier told her that the Jews had started the war and that "Germany has to fight and bleed on behalf of the whole world on account of this plague." He said that in the long run the Germans would have to "eradicate" Swiss Jews, too. Using a common formulation, the German said that "The would have attacked us" had the Germans not attacked in the East. He explained photos of Russians hanged from trees as "Deterrence." The soldier defended against a TASS atrocity propaganda story (about German gassings of patients transported in hospital trains as they went through tunnels) in this way:
That's also a big huge lie . . . we've cleaned out the mental asylums, in a humane way, obviously. . . . [W]e release mental cripples from their useless and agonizing existence, but war cripples are holy.

Before returning to Switzerland, the medical team members visited Warsaw. One truck driver, drinking in a Warsaw bar with German soldiers, was told simply that “just don’t take any prisoners, that is our watchword” when it comes to dealing with “this {!#%@} people.” Another German bragged to him about shooting French African troops in a POW camp with the words, “You will be amazed how we will clear out what doesn’t suit us.” The Warsaw stay of the Swiss team included a tour of Warsaw ghetto, one of the Swiss team later noting his understanding that 600,000 Jews lived in the ghetto and that “The whole thing is guarded by the military. Every Jew who tried to flee is bumped off.” The team’s doctors noted that 400-600 Jews were dying each day in the ghetto.

Germans too learned about what was happening in the East from those who’d served there. Fritzsche describes how a city water meter reader told Anna Haag in Stuttgart
about a relative, an SS man, who reported that he had to shoot down 500 Jews, including women and children, in Poland, that many were not dead, but others were just thrown on top, and that he could not take it anymore.

According to Fritzsche, reports of atrocities in the East had three repeating elements: 1) the victims included women and children - signaling that what was going on was not regular warfare nor anti-partisan operations but “something terrible”; 2) the victims undressed and wen to their deaths naked or partly naked; and 3) the “SS shooters sometimes went mad” - both conveying the shock of these killings and identifying the killers as separate from the Wehrmacht and ordinary Germans (the SS). (As an aside, emphasizing how elements of the Final Solution were witnessed in broad daylight, without the witnesses understanding the whole of what they were seeing a part, Fritzsche summarizes Germans’ diary entries on their observations of deportations of German Jews during 1941-1942.)


Fritzsche, An Iron Wind: Europe under Hitler, pp137-150, 165-167 - I will post more on this later, I’ve gotten tired of typing!
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:08 am

What I wanted to add here was touched on in this post in the France thread and elsewhere in that thread and other threads dealing with “early news,” too.

In further reply to Mary Q's decision to ignore examples of rumors about the mass murder ("you've provided no evidence that word of mass murder of the Jews was getting around"), the BBC broadcasts of summer 1942 have to be mentioned.

In two broadcasts in June 1942, the BBC presented details from reports gathered by Oyneg Shabes activists in Warsaw as well as from the Bund. The information had been conveyed to the BBC, reaching the BBC by May under the auspices of the Polish underground. The first broadcast was 2 June; it gave a death toll of at least 700,000 by that date (Sobibór had barely opened by this time, Treblinka would not open for another 2 months, and mass gassing was not yet underway at Auschwitz). The report described mass murders of Jews in Lithuania, White Russia, and Ukraine and mentioned the killing in gas vans at Chełmno (based on Szlamek Winer's report to the Oyneg Shabes). It also told of deportations, which had begun that spring, from Polish ghettos. The second BBC broadcast on these themes came 26 June 1942. (Bormann's circular was issued 9 October 1942). (The BBC broadcasts are so well known and well covered I won't provide citations in this post. Only Mary Q seems ignorant of this stuff.)
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:51 pm

Seems that Monstrous and the anti-Semite Mary Q Contrary have abandoned this effort.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:04 am

Yup. Drive by, look ridiculous, vanish.

I wonder where David disappeared to........

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:33 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:The communists were demonstrably awful at forgeries of any kind. If so much as a single document was a Soviet forgery, any one of thousands of historians from across the world that have studies the issue would have brought awareness by now. The fact that no such thing has happened is telling.


There are countless revisionists pining away in thought prisons for trying to bring awareness...

Give us an estimate. About how many? Name them or I don't believe you. You make stuff up all the time.

Monstrous has a recollection of reading that there are thousands of people convicted of political crimes in Germany which includes Holocaust revisionism.

Cough up the damned names, liar.

Did you not hear that Monstrous stated "countless"? Most victims are unknown. Forgotten by history. Such as some youth sneaking out at night to spray Holocaust revisionist graffiti or someone being found to have illicit Holocaust revisionist books hidden at home. And after being caught being sent to some nameless German Gulag without notice in newspapers or by Amnesty.


I suspect these two guys were lucky to escape without being sent to a German Gulag.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.news.com.au/travel/world-travel/europe/chinese-tourists-detained-in-berlin-for-hitler-salute/news-story/06fa5b701610f5c3a2b4e9f4a239ae1c

:rotfl:



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