Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:44 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
NathanC wrote:What Monstrous doesn't get is if it was some kind of "ploy", then the report would've been doctored to say "peaceful soviet citizens", just like the soviet extraordinary comission reports for the Babi Yar massacre were. It's really that simple: it doesn't fit into the pattern of actual soviet forgeries, and contradicts the narrative the Soviets wanted to sell, which makes it 100% genuine.

NathanC seems unaware of that the Soviet policy on Jews changed over time. Increasingly anti-Semitic during Stalin's last years, then less so. Regardless, even under Stalin, at no time did the Communists "deny" the claim that Jews genocided such as by objecting to the verdicts of the Nuremberg trial.

Irrelevant. I made a long post above showing suppression of the Jewish identity of the Nazis' victims in the USSR during and immediately after the war.

The "suppression" of Jewish identity needs to be looked at in the context of the universalist ideology of communism and official atheism of the Soviet Union. Jews were citizens of the Soviet Union with all the rights and responsibilities of all other citizens.. Judaism was definitely suppressed in the Soviet Union but that is because all religious affiliation was suppressed. Jewish ethnicity wasn't suppressed any more than Ukrainian or Chechen or Armenian or Ossetian or Mari or etc. ethnicity was suppressed. The Soviet Union was supposed to be a multicultural society where all ethnic groups were equally integrated within the body politic. To call out Jewish identity would suggest that the USSR considered the Jews to be a foreign nation existing within the national borders of the USSR--like the National Socialists in Germany did. All the freedoms for which the Jews had fought for centuries--the ability to live among the gentiles as equal citizens instead of being relegated to distinct enclaves or the right to marry outside of their own group--would be undermined, It would fuel the anti-Semitic canard about duel-loyalty. It would set back the great strides the Jewish people had made toward full integration with the surrounding communities--not only in the Soviet Union but all around the world. The USSR didn't call out the Catholic victims of the Nazis. Or the Baptist victims of the Nazis. Or the Ingush or the Tuvans or the Laks who suffered under the Nazis. Why would Jews be any different?
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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:51 pm

Glad to see you trying to help Monstrous understand this. That's big of you. The fact is that the Soviet authorities, for various reasons, didn't highlight or promote the Jewish dimension of the Nazi atrocities in the East. In not singling out Jewish suffering, and in fact suppressing it, the authorities certainly didn't fabricate evidence for the extermination of Jews, that which they didn't highlight or promote. So, yes, the situation is the opposite to what Monstrous has been trying to put across, as even a denier-troll like you can see.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:26 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
NathanC wrote:What Monstrous doesn't get is if it was some kind of "ploy", then the report would've been doctored to say "peaceful soviet citizens", just like the soviet extraordinary comission reports for the Babi Yar massacre were. It's really that simple: it doesn't fit into the pattern of actual soviet forgeries, and contradicts the narrative the Soviets wanted to sell, which makes it 100% genuine.

NathanC seems unaware of that the Soviet policy on Jews changed over time. Increasingly anti-Semitic during Stalin's last years, then less so. Regardless, even under Stalin, at no time did the Communists "deny" the claim that Jews genocided such as by objecting to the verdicts of the Nuremberg trial.

Irrelevant. I made a long post above showing suppression of the Jewish identity of the Nazis' victims in the USSR during and immediately after the war.

The "suppression" of Jewish identity needs to be looked at in the context of the universalist ideology of communism and official atheism of the Soviet Union. Jews were citizens of the Soviet Union with all the rights and responsibilities of all other citizens.. Judaism was definitely suppressed in the Soviet Union but that is because all religious affiliation was suppressed. Jewish ethnicity wasn't suppressed any more than Ukrainian or Chechen or Armenian or Ossetian or Mari or etc. ethnicity was suppressed. The Soviet Union was supposed to be a multicultural society where all ethnic groups were equally integrated within the body politic. To call out Jewish identity would suggest that the USSR considered the Jews to be a foreign nation existing within the national borders of the USSR--like the National Socialists in Germany did. All the freedoms for which the Jews had fought for centuries--the ability to live among the gentiles as equal citizens instead of being relegated to distinct enclaves or the right to marry outside of their own group--would be undermined, It would fuel the anti-Semitic canard about duel-loyalty. It would set back the great strides the Jewish people had made toward full integration with the surrounding communities--not only in the Soviet Union but all around the world. The USSR didn't call out the Catholic victims of the Nazis. Or the Baptist victims of the Nazis. Or the Ingush or the Tuvans or the Laks who suffered under the Nazis. Why would Jews be any different?


What made the Jews different is what SOVIET citizens did to them, Mary. Whatever the official policy regarding the Jews in the Soviet Union many Soviet citizens, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Georgians, whatever, remained anti-Semitic. Soviet citizens guarded death camps, shot Jews over pits, helped the Germans track down Jews, profited from Jewish deaths and so on. It was far safer for Stalin to say that all Soviet citizens suffered under the Germans rather than singling out Jews. Singling out Jews meant admitting that Soviet citizens collaborated with the Germans and even murdered Jews themselves.

Good grief, run on sentence. Edited to prevent making your eyes tired.

:lol:
Last edited by Jeffk 1970 on Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:42 pm

But Mary's right with regard to Monstrous's point - we can debate why, but it is clear that the Soviets didn't "divide the dead" and thus didn't fabricate evidence for the extermination of Jews. :)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby NathanC » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:46 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:But Mary's right with regard to Monstrous's point - we can debate why, but it is clear that the Soviets didn't "divide the dead" and thus didn't fabricate evidence for the extermination of Jews. :)


Yes. Mary said it itself: They didn't "Call out" the Jewish identity of the victims just as they didn't "call out" the identities of other victims. This is nothing less than an admission that the soviets didn't fabricate any of the captured German evidence, because most or all of it describes the Killings as being Anti Jewish in nature. Which is completely at odds with their not "calling out" the identities of the victims.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:35 am

NathanC wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:But Mary's right with regard to Monstrous's point - we can debate why, but it is clear that the Soviets didn't "divide the dead" and thus didn't fabricate evidence for the extermination of Jews. :)


Yes. Mary said it itself: They didn't "Call out" the Jewish identity of the victims just as they didn't "call out" the identities of other victims. This is nothing less than an admission that the soviets didn't fabricate any of the captured German evidence, because most or all of it describes the Killings as being Anti Jewish in nature. Which is completely at odds with their not "calling out" the identities of the victims.

Frankly, I was surprised to see Mary come around to the obvious point on this issue.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:36 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:But Mary's right with regard to Monstrous's point - we can debate why, but it is clear that the Soviets didn't "divide the dead" and thus didn't fabricate evidence for the extermination of Jews. :)

I'm not sure how the fact that the Soviet Union considered it's Jewish citizens to be members of the human race means that the Soviet Union minimized Jewish suffering or how you can insist that we can trust Soviet sources regarding the Holocaust because the Soviets lied about the Holocaust. I think it's time to move beyond vague generalities and get into some specifics. Let's see a few examples of this widespread practice of the Soviets suppressing evidence of the Holocaust.
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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:10 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:But Mary's right with regard to Monstrous's point - we can debate why, but it is clear that the Soviets didn't "divide the dead" and thus didn't fabricate evidence for the extermination of Jews. :)

I'm not sure how the fact that the Soviet Union considered it's Jewish citizens to be members of the human race

Silly. It would not be deeming Jews to be apart from the human race to acknowledge that they were among the humans singled out for elimination by the Germans. Logic isn't your strong point, Mary.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:means that the Soviet Union minimized Jewish suffering

Actually, it does mean that the Soviets minimized the Jewish aspect of German atrocities. They did so by failing to acknowledge the scope, reality, and anti-Jewish aims of German actions - and suppressing information about the identities of large numbers of Jewish victims.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:how you can insist that we can trust Soviet sources

Stop lying about what I've posted.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:I think it's time to move beyond vague generalities and get into some specifics.

Lord knows I've tried. You guys don't want to discuss sources having to do with many topics. Not my fault you're chickens.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Let's see a few examples of this widespread practice of the Soviets suppressing evidence of the Holocaust.

But I already posted a number of examples. You guys ignored them. As is your wont for most everything that challenges your beliefs.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:19 pm

nickterry wrote:Maryzilla hasn't read any Soviet sources.

Mary, are you just going to let this go? It's like, crikey, it's a slap in your face. A real insult. Here's someone saying, in essence, that you don't know what you're talking about in this thread. Defend yourself, for crissake. Tell us about all your work in Soviet archives and also about all the literature you've read on the topic. You can't allow a bit of smashmouth posting like this just to hang out there!
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:30 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
NathanC wrote:What Monstrous doesn't get is if it was some kind of "ploy", then the report would've been doctored to say "peaceful soviet citizens", just like the soviet extraordinary comission reports for the Babi Yar massacre were. It's really that simple: it doesn't fit into the pattern of actual soviet forgeries, and contradicts the narrative the Soviets wanted to sell, which makes it 100% genuine.

NathanC seems unaware of that the Soviet policy on Jews changed over time. Increasingly anti-Semitic during Stalin's last years, then less so. Regardless, even under Stalin, at no time did the Communists "deny" the claim that Jews genocided such as by objecting to the verdicts of the Nuremberg trial.

Irrelevant. I made a long post above showing suppression of the Jewish identity of the Nazis' victims in the USSR during and immediately after the war.

The "suppression" of Jewish identity needs to be looked at in the context of the universalist ideology of communism and official atheism of the Soviet Union. Jews were citizens of the Soviet Union with all the rights and responsibilities of all other citizens.. Judaism was definitely suppressed in the Soviet Union but that is because all religious affiliation was suppressed. Jewish ethnicity wasn't suppressed any more than Ukrainian or Chechen or Armenian or Ossetian or Mari or etc. ethnicity was suppressed. The Soviet Union was supposed to be a multicultural society where all ethnic groups were equally integrated within the body politic. To call out Jewish identity would suggest that the USSR considered the Jews to be a foreign nation existing within the national borders of the USSR--like the National Socialists in Germany did. All the freedoms for which the Jews had fought for centuries--the ability to live among the gentiles as equal citizens instead of being relegated to distinct enclaves or the right to marry outside of their own group--would be undermined, It would fuel the anti-Semitic canard about duel-loyalty. It would set back the great strides the Jewish people had made toward full integration with the surrounding communities--not only in the Soviet Union but all around the world. The USSR didn't call out the Catholic victims of the Nazis. Or the Baptist victims of the Nazis. Or the Ingush or the Tuvans or the Laks who suffered under the Nazis. Why would Jews be any different?


What made the Jews different is what SOVIET citizens did to them, Mary. Whatever the official policy regarding the Jews in the Soviet Union many Soviet citizens, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Georgians, whatever, remained anti-Semitic.

And Ukrainians remained anti-Georgian and Georgians remained anti-Russian and Russians remained anti-Chechen and so on and so on and so on. There was a whole lot of distrust and hate going on in that part of the world (and still is). When everybody hates everybody else, the fact that everybody hates the Jews doesn't mean the Jews are being singled out.

Soviet citizens guarded death camps, shot Jews over pits, helped the Germans track down Jews, profited from Jewish deaths and so on.

Which Soviet citizens guarded which death camps? Which Soviet citizens shot which Jews over which pits? Which Soviet citizens helped which Germans track down which Jews? Which Soviet citizens profited from which Jewish deaths? Again, the fact that some people collaborated with the Germans when the Germans were fighting a rival ethnic group doesn't mean that Jewish suffering was minimized.

You need to look at the circumstances under which non-Jewish soviet citizens collaborated with anti-Jewish actions. How much free will was involved? Because what made the Jews different is not what non-Jewish Soviet citizens did to the Jews during the Holocaust but what the Jews did to the Jews. Ukrainians didn't take Ukrainian luggage off of trains before herding Ukrainians to the gas chamber. Georgians didn't remove the gold filings from the teeth of other Georgians after they were gassed. Belorussians didn't cut the hair off naked teenage Belorussian girls before they were gassed. Uzbeks didn't hold sumptuous wedding banquets for five thousand guests in a death camp that was financed by the confiscated wealth of hundreds of thousands of other Uzbeks who had been exterminated in the camp. Everybody gives these Jewish collaborators with the Holocaust with a pass because the Jews allegedly had no choice. Maybe that's true. But it's also true that only the Jews collaborated with the Germans to kill their own.

It was far safer for Stalin to say that all Soviet citizens suffered under the Germans rather than singling out Jews. Singling out Jews meant admitting that Soviet citizens collaborated with the Germans and even murdered Jews themselves.

Maybe. But the Soviets didn't single out other ethnic groups to any great degree either. That would fit with the Socialist philosophy of univeralism. That doesn't mean that the Soviets intentionally downplayed Jewish suffering to minimize the Holocaust or that because the Soviets lied about the Holocaust we can trust what the Soviets say about the holocaust.
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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:02 pm

Mary Q Rizoli wrote:And Ukrainians remained anti-Georgian and Georgians remained anti-Russian and Russians remained anti-Chechen and so on and so on and so on. There was a whole lot of distrust and hate going on in that part of the world (and still is). When everybody hates everybody else, the fact that everybody hates the Jews doesn't mean the Jews are being singled out.


They are if the invading force hates them and the inhabitants realize they can benefit by collaborating.
Also, collaboration meant wiping the Communist slate clean. So, if I'm some minor Communist functionary caught in my native village when the Germans show up, I can show my new loyalty by giving up Jews.

Mary Q Rizoli wrote:Which Soviet citizens guarded which death camps? Which Soviet citizens shot which Jews over which pits? Which Soviet citizens helped which Germans track down which Jews? Which Soviet citizens profited from which Jewish deaths?


The Germans called them "Hiwis," Mary. They were also known as "Trawnikis."
Here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trawniki_men

I didn't think you could handle anything too difficult so we'll start you with Wikipedia. After that I suggest Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning and Black Earth by Timothy Snyder. Browning discusses these men in depth. Snyder discusses collaboration in the Soviet Union.
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Mary Q Rizoli wrote:Everybody gives these Jewish collaborators with the Holocaust with a pass because the Jews allegedly had no choice. Maybe that's true. But it's also true that only the Jews collaborated with the Germans to kill their own.


I guess you feel entitled to pass moral judgements on people the Germans incarcerated and murdered for the sole reason that they were Jews. You are certainly entitled to your vile little opinion.

I do wonder how you would react, you and the other deniers, if you were placed in that position. I guess the noble decision would be to die...and some of them took that option. Suicides were rampant among the Sonderkommando in the ARC and Birkenau, men who did it for a few hours or days or weeks and then decided they couldn't take it. Others let the guards kill them because they couldn't do it themselves.

But others simply couldn't, because life is precious. The SK's said that. Others simply wanted revenge or to live to let the world know what happened. I respect all of that because, frankly, I don't know what I would do if I was placed in that position.

In a way I even understand why the Hiwis did what they did. Starving to death in a POW camp is a really appalling way to die...there's no dignity in it. Getting out of the hell holes the Germans called "POW camps," getting enough to eat and clothes to wear, plus a bed. Those that served in the ARC helped themselves to what the Jews left behind so they even profited from it.

I'm simply not interested in answering the rest of your comment. Others already have.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Monstrous » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:05 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Let's see a few examples of this widespread practice of the Soviets suppressing evidence of the Holocaust.

But I already posted a number of examples. You guys ignored them. As is your wont for most everything that challenges your beliefs.

What a bizarre logic! So the Soviet Union at first may have ignored some rumors of Einsatzgruppen killings which even revisionists acknowledge occurred? Well, so did the Western Allies!

That the Communists rewrote and falsified such rumors is not evidence for the trustworthiness of the Communists! It is evidence for the unreliability of Communist claims!

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Monstrous » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:16 pm

Fascinating that the Believers have stopped talking about Auschwitz and the other camps. Too much contradictory evidence?

Now it is all about what supposedly occurred in Russia which conveniently do not have any large material remains which may contradict the Believer version and where all documents have passed through Communist censorship.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:19 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Let's see a few examples of this widespread practice of the Soviets suppressing evidence of the Holocaust.

But I already posted a number of examples. You guys ignored them. As is your wont for most everything that challenges your beliefs.

What a bizarre logic! So the Soviet Union at first may have ignored some rumors of Einsatzgruppen killings which even revisionists acknowledge occurred? Well, so did the Western Allies!

No, that's not what I wrote. I said that the Soviets were aware of the dimensions and anti-Jewish character of the massacres but generally described the Jewish victims in accordance with what I termed the "internationalist line." Downplaying or suppressing the Jewish aspect, not ignoring (or falsifying) the massacres.

Your analogy to the western Allies is nonsensical. The obvious difference between the Soviets and the western Allies, nitwit, is that with the Soviets the killings were taking place right under their noses, in their country, amongst their people, whilst the western Allies could only learn about these things indirectly, at a distance, and did not live through them. Just the same, we know from decodes (Breitman) that some information on the massacres was available in the west, too..

Monstrous wrote:That the Communists rewrote and falsified such rumors

You clearly know little of how state organizations operate. Reports are always edited, refined, positioned by states. But the word "falsified" is not correct for much of what I've read on this topic: the victims were indeed "peaceful Soviet citizens," to take one phrase used. They were also Jews. But it is not false to refer to them as citizens. The authorities chose to highlight some aspects, and suppress others, in describing the victims. Hardly a Commie innovation, that sort of thing. But . . . the mass murders were not in this manner falsified - rather, they were described in line with the internationalist narrative.

That the files contain the record of the editing and positioning process - including raw reports detailing murders of Jews as Jews - really doesn't help your case.

Monstrous wrote:is not evidence for the trustworthiness of the Communists!

Strawman. One more time: no one's advanced an argument about the trustworthiness of the Stalinists.

Monstrous wrote:It is evidence for the unreliability of Communist claims!

The trouble for you is that the "slanting" and "positioning" - as can be seen in the documents in the archives - has nothing to do with fabrication of incidents and everything to do with how to present the real incidents/massacres to the Soviet people and a wider audience, stressing national unity instead of divisions and ethnic considerations.

I honestly cannot decide whether you're too dumb to debate this - or too dishonest. Which is it?
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:19 am, edited 3 times in total.
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- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:25 pm

Monstrous wrote:Fascinating that the Believers have stopped talking about Auschwitz and the other camps. Too much contradictory evidence?

Hunh? Your thread here is supposedly on the Bormann circular and evidence for resettlement of the Jews further to the east. I doubt that I opened this thread on Auschwitz because there's "too much contradictory evidence" for me to want to talk about the camp. Dream on.

What's fascinating is how many mistakes you make and how many stupid posts you drop into the forum.

Monstrous wrote:Now it is all about what supposedly occurred in Russia which conveniently do not have any large material remains which may contradict the Believer version and where all documents have passed through Communist censorship.

Since you claimed that the Jews were deported further east, it's your OP that kind of brings us smack into, er, Russian matters. Dummkopf.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby nickterry » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:42 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:But it's also true that only the Jews collaborated with the Germans to kill their own.


That's utterly false three times over:

1. 'the Jews' did not collectively collaborate with the Germans to do anything any more than 'the French' or 'the Russians' collectively collaborated or resisted

2. nor did any sub-group of Jews "collaborate" to kill other Jews,

3. whereas all kinds of groups on the European continent was busy killing their own kind at the behest of the Nazis, one way or another, with Italians fighting Italians, Estonians executing other Estonians, Russians killing Russians, Greeks killing Greeks, and so on. Or they were killing their neighbours, e.g. Poles vs Ukrainians and Ukrainians vs Poles.

Notice how I didn't have to use the Trumpian 'the', as in 'the blacks' or 'the Latinos' or 'the gays', to get my point across. Maybe Maryzilla should learn how to communicate in a manner that doesn't scream of racism at every turn.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby NathanC » Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:04 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Let's see a few examples of this widespread practice of the Soviets suppressing evidence of the Holocaust.

But I already posted a number of examples. You guys ignored them. As is your wont for most everything that challenges your beliefs.


For {!#%@} sake, so have I.

Upthread, Mary already admitted that the Soviets supressed evidence for the Holocaust. It's trolling us again.

Good old Maryzilla. Some things never change.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby NathanC » Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:08 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mary Q Rizoli wrote:And Ukrainians remained anti-Georgian and Georgians remained anti-Russian and Russians remained anti-Chechen and so on and so on and so on. There was a whole lot of distrust and hate going on in that part of the world (and still is). When everybody hates everybody else, the fact that everybody hates the Jews doesn't mean the Jews are being singled out.


They are if the invading force hates them and the inhabitants realize they can benefit by collaborating.
Also, collaboration meant wiping the Communist slate clean. So, if I'm some minor Communist functionary caught in my native village when the Germans show up, I can show my new loyalty by giving up Jews.

Mary Q Rizoli wrote:Which Soviet citizens guarded which death camps? Which Soviet citizens shot which Jews over which pits? Which Soviet citizens helped which Germans track down which Jews? Which Soviet citizens profited from which Jewish deaths?


The Germans called them "Hiwis," Mary. They were also known as "Trawnikis."
Here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trawniki_men

I didn't think you could handle anything too difficult so we'll start you with Wikipedia. After that I suggest Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning and Black Earth by Timothy Snyder. Browning discusses these men in depth. Snyder discusses collaboration in the Soviet Union.
Why am I not going into more detail with you?
Because it is a waste of my time.
Why is it a waste of my time?
Because you said this:

Mary Q Rizoli wrote:Everybody gives these Jewish collaborators with the Holocaust with a pass because the Jews allegedly had no choice. Maybe that's true. But it's also true that only the Jews collaborated with the Germans to kill their own.


I guess you feel entitled to pass moral judgements on people the Germans incarcerated and murdered for the sole reason that they were Jews. You are certainly entitled to your vile little opinion.

I do wonder how you would react, you and the other deniers, if you were placed in that position. I guess the noble decision would be to die...and some of them took that option. Suicides were rampant among the Sonderkommando in the ARC and Birkenau, men who did it for a few hours or days or weeks and then decided they couldn't take it. Others let the guards kill them because they couldn't do it themselves.

But others simply couldn't, because life is precious. The SK's said that. Others simply wanted revenge or to live to let the world know what happened. I respect all of that because, frankly, I don't know what I would do if I was placed in that position.

In a way I even understand why the Hiwis did what they did. Starving to death in a POW camp is a really appalling way to die...there's no dignity in it. Getting out of the hell holes the Germans called "POW camps," getting enough to eat and clothes to wear, plus a bed. Those that served in the ARC helped themselves to what the Jews left behind so they even profited from it.

I'm simply not interested in answering the rest of your comment. Others already have.


Mary posted these same "arguments" under the name "Dogzilla" in 2010-2012, when the ISF used to be called JREF. They've been called out before. Maryzilla is probably regressing to these old "arguments" because its crap is so easily debunked, and is just trying to troll people now.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:18 am

NathanC wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mary Q Rizoli wrote:And Ukrainians remained anti-Georgian and Georgians remained anti-Russian and Russians remained anti-Chechen and so on and so on and so on. There was a whole lot of distrust and hate going on in that part of the world (and still is). When everybody hates everybody else, the fact that everybody hates the Jews doesn't mean the Jews are being singled out.


They are if the invading force hates them and the inhabitants realize they can benefit by collaborating.
Also, collaboration meant wiping the Communist slate clean. So, if I'm some minor Communist functionary caught in my native village when the Germans show up, I can show my new loyalty by giving up Jews.

Mary Q Rizoli wrote:Which Soviet citizens guarded which death camps? Which Soviet citizens shot which Jews over which pits? Which Soviet citizens helped which Germans track down which Jews? Which Soviet citizens profited from which Jewish deaths?


The Germans called them "Hiwis," Mary. They were also known as "Trawnikis."
Here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trawniki_men

I didn't think you could handle anything too difficult so we'll start you with Wikipedia. After that I suggest Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning and Black Earth by Timothy Snyder. Browning discusses these men in depth. Snyder discusses collaboration in the Soviet Union.
Why am I not going into more detail with you?
Because it is a waste of my time.
Why is it a waste of my time?
Because you said this:

Mary Q Rizoli wrote:Everybody gives these Jewish collaborators with the Holocaust with a pass because the Jews allegedly had no choice. Maybe that's true. But it's also true that only the Jews collaborated with the Germans to kill their own.


I guess you feel entitled to pass moral judgements on people the Germans incarcerated and murdered for the sole reason that they were Jews. You are certainly entitled to your vile little opinion.

I do wonder how you would react, you and the other deniers, if you were placed in that position. I guess the noble decision would be to die...and some of them took that option. Suicides were rampant among the Sonderkommando in the ARC and Birkenau, men who did it for a few hours or days or weeks and then decided they couldn't take it. Others let the guards kill them because they couldn't do it themselves.

But others simply couldn't, because life is precious. The SK's said that. Others simply wanted revenge or to live to let the world know what happened. I respect all of that because, frankly, I don't know what I would do if I was placed in that position.

In a way I even understand why the Hiwis did what they did. Starving to death in a POW camp is a really appalling way to die...there's no dignity in it. Getting out of the hell holes the Germans called "POW camps," getting enough to eat and clothes to wear, plus a bed. Those that served in the ARC helped themselves to what the Jews left behind so they even profited from it.

I'm simply not interested in answering the rest of your comment. Others already have.


Mary posted these same "arguments" under the name "Dogzilla" in 2010-2012, when the ISF used to be called JREF. They've been called out before. Maryzilla is probably regressing to these old "arguments" because its crap is so easily debunked, and is just trying to troll people now.


Yeah, same old shite, different day.

It's why she is now "Mary Rizoli" to me.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:12 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
nickterry wrote:Maryzilla hasn't read any Soviet sources.

Mary, are you just going to let this go? It's like, crikey, it's a slap in your face. A real insult. Here's someone saying, in essence, that you don't know what you're talking about in this thread. Defend yourself, for crissake. Tell us about all your work in Soviet archives and also about all the literature you've read on the topic. You can't allow a bit of smashmouth posting like this just to hang out there!

Mary must have missed this post. And Nick's post when it was made.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:54 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:But Mary's right with regard to Monstrous's point - we can debate why, but it is clear that the Soviets didn't "divide the dead" and thus didn't fabricate evidence for the extermination of Jews. :)

I'm not sure how the fact that the Soviet Union considered it's Jewish citizens to be members of the human race

Silly. It would not be deeming Jews to be apart from the human race to acknowledge that they were among the humans singled out for elimination by the Germans. Logic isn't your strong point, Mary.

It would be if Jews were the only ethnic group among other ethnic groups singled out for elimination that were identified as such.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:how you can insist that we can trust Soviet sources

Stop lying about what I've posted.

Perhaps you are slightly more nuanced but others on this thread have declared Soviet sources for the Holocaust to be 100% genuine

Mary Q Contrary wrote:I think it's time to move beyond vague generalities and get into some specifics.

Lord knows I've tried. You guys don't want to discuss sources having to do with many topics. Not my fault you're chickens.

Those links are a stream of consciousness list of Holocaust resources that are not specific to this topic.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Let's see a few examples of this widespread practice of the Soviets suppressing evidence of the Holocaust.

But I already posted a number of examples. You guys ignored them. As is your wont for most everything that challenges your beliefs.

That link addresses more specifically the Soviet attempt to hide the Jewish aspect of what was going on. However, alot of it is simply the Soviets putting Jewish deaths in the universalist context. You also seem to take issue with the Soviets mentioning other ethic groups while also mentioning the Jews as being among the victims. These are not examples of the Soviets suppressing the scale of the Jewish tragedy.

Something you need to remember is what the Soviets knew about the Holocaust at the time that this "suppression" was happening. I know perfectly well that the Germans did not intend to physically exterminate the Jews at any time. But lets pretend they did. According to the standard Holocaust story, the extermination of the Jews was a state secret that nobody discussed except in coded language. The fact that Jewish civilians were being killed was obviously known from day one. You can't stage a massive military action in the former Pale of Settlement where hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians are being killed without massive Jewish casualties. But when do you believe Stalin and his pals became aware that the Jewish deaths were not merely collateral damage but were part of a far more insidious plot? Did Stalin know in 1940? In mid 1941? By the end of 1941? Mid 1942?

There was obviously a time at which the Soviets were unaware of the Holocaust and a time at which the Soviets were aware of the Holocaust. The Soviets cannot be accused of suppressing the Holocaust if they were unaware of the Holocaust. So when do you believe the Soviets had enough solid evidence that Jews were specifically being targeted?
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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:27 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:But Mary's right with regard to Monstrous's point - we can debate why, but it is clear that the Soviets didn't "divide the dead" and thus didn't fabricate evidence for the extermination of Jews. :)

I'm not sure how the fact that the Soviet Union considered it's Jewish citizens to be members of the human race

Silly. It would not be deeming Jews to be apart from the human race to acknowledge that they were among the humans singled out for elimination by the Germans. Logic isn't your strong point, Mary.

It would be if Jews were the only ethnic group among other ethnic groups singled out for elimination that were identified as such.

Pure babble. I doubt you know what you're trying to say.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Perhaps you are slightly more nuanced but others on this thread have declared Soviet sources for the Holocaust to be 100% genuine

We've been begging you guys - list out for us the documents/pieces of evidence that you say are not "genuine" or that you say were fabricated by the Soviets. Are you chicken to take a stand? Or is it the you don't know?

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Those links are a stream of consciousness list of Holocaust resources that are not specific to this topic.

Idiot. They are mostly gathered from other discussions during which Monstrous or his fellow morons refused to talk about sources that cause your claims difficulty, to put it mildly. Actually many of the links are highly relevant in that they either refute "resettlement" or prove extermination. But you guys would rather post about why you won't consider them - even as you claim no one posts evidence! LOL

I've discussed relevant evidence in this thread as well - PS-3244 - and linked to posts about another relevant document, the Katzmann report.

it is (mildly) amusing to watch y'all claim no one here deals with evidence, then come up with excuse after excuse not to discuss the evidence presented.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Let's see a few examples of this widespread practice of the Soviets suppressing evidence of the Holocaust.

But I already posted a number of examples. You guys ignored them. As is your wont for most everything that challenges your beliefs.

That link addresses more specifically the Soviet attempt to hide the Jewish aspect of what was going on. However, alot of it is simply the Soviets putting Jewish deaths in the universalist context.

Which is the point, doofus.

Anyway at least you now see that "a few examples" had long been posted in this thread.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:You also seem to take issue with the Soviets mentioning other ethic groups while also mentioning the Jews as being among the victims. These are not examples of the Soviets suppressing the scale of the Jewish tragedy.

Re-read what I posted. I don't "take issue" with anything, I explain, using examples, how the Soviets approached and managed the information about the extermination. The point is simple, but maybe over your head: generally, as they reported to a wide Soviet and international audience, Soviet officials downplayed, erased, suppressed the Jewish aspect, which is found in the raw reports they were receiving, of the mass murders carried out by German units in the occupied Soviet Union. The raw reports, which often detail the anti-Jewish character of German atrocities, are not fabricated, manipulated, or un-genuine. In those reports we see what information reached the authorities; in the edited and disseminated public statements we see how that raw information was re-packaged to align with the Soviet line.

The existence of the raw reports is such a problem for you that I don't wonder why you refuse to get the point of my post and try here obfuscating it. {!#%@} you.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Something you need to remember is what the Soviets knew about the Holocaust at the time that this "suppression" was happening. I know perfectly well that the Germans did not intend to physically exterminate the Jews at any time.

Show us how you know this and tell us what time you're talking about. Please don't make us go through the Jäger Report again, which proves you wrong.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:But lets pretend they did.

No need to. Jäger explained the goal as extermination and so too do many EG reports when they explain how territory of the USSR was rendered "Jew free." But do keep trying this idiocy.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:According to the standard Holocaust story, the extermination of the Jews was a state secret that nobody discussed except in coded language. The fact that Jewish civilians were being killed was obviously known from day one.

Of course, it was. And reported in various reports, such as those made by the EGs.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:You can't stage a massive military action in the former Pale of Settlement where hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians are being killed without massive Jewish casualties.

So your argument is that when the Germans occupied areas of the Soviet Union with great numbers of Jews living in them, they killed large numbers of Jews there . . . but didn't kill 100s of 1000s of Jews in areas of the Soviet Union that they didn't occupy where there were not large numbers of Jews? That's just brilliant, Mary.

You know, I know, and everybody reading this subforum knows that all this has been discussed at length - in the EG thread and elsewhere - and it's been shown time and again that the Germans intended to kill the Jews, targeted them for execution, and executed them in mass murder actions.

In the first place, the bulk of the Jews murdered by the Germans were killed in rear areas, by security units, not as you try implying in the heat of a raging battle at the front. Also, in the occupied areas of the USSR where the mass killings were greatest, the % of Jews in the population was not even 10%. Yet in their killing operations, for example, the German units made sure that the % of victims who were Jews was close 90% - more in some areas (e.g., Lithuania, where EK3's victims were around 98% Jews). That is, Jews as a people, in communities across the occupied territory, were targeted for execution and shot in mass-murder operations. There's nothing collateral or about the "horror of war" in this at all. It is genocide. A graphic posted by Hans in an other thread makes your problem obvious:

Image

Mary Q Contrary wrote:But when do you believe Stalin and his pals became aware that the Jewish deaths were not merely collateral damage but were part of a far more insidious plot? Did Stalin know in 1940? In mid 1941? By the end of 1941? Mid 1942?

This is irrelevant to the question of evidence for the Holocaust. And your dates are tendentious - 1940 LOL, mid-1941 LOL. But do read the posts you reply to more carefully.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:There was obviously a time at which the Soviets were unaware of the Holocaust and a time at which the Soviets were aware of the Holocaust. The Soviets cannot be accused of suppressing the Holocaust if they were unaware of the Holocaust. So when do you believe the Soviets had enough solid evidence that Jews were specifically being targeted?

Silly semantic games. I won't play. I wrote about suppression of the Jewish aspect of the German atrocities.

Still waiting for you to tell us about your work in Soviet archives . . .
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- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:45 pm

"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:13 am

I've got a lot of catching up to do.......... Hold on......

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:23 am

Monstrous wrote:So why cannot you quote any such massive amount supposedly buried in the archives? The Jaeger report is obviously an anti-Lithuanian ploy.


Jaeger himself attested to compiling statistics in his trial testimony. That matches up strongly with what we can deduce from the report.

As for your spurrious claims about "documents uncovered in archives":

1. I cannot think of a single document utilized by Mattogno that was not already known about beforehand (The Reuter note for example).

2. a deportation of the magnitude that you suggest occurred would have been literally impossible to hide and would have been immediately known about in the west at the moment of its occurrence. Such information leaked out on deportations of Tartars in the Crimea and Pontic Greeks ion Southern Ukraine - both of which were substantially smaller scale events than the imaginary one that you are spewing lamely about.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:25 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:All righty then, everyone uses documents that are in former Soviet archives - but Monstrous doesn't like some of these documents. He won't identify which ones he thinks are fabricated, although he's been asked many times to do so.


Recall that he earlier stated that there were "maybe ten" "forgeries" not linked to the EG's? He has blown past that number by at least an order of magnitude. Call it self contradiction of you want, but he is full of {!#%@}.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:28 am

Balsamo wrote:or Korherr SAID he believed the Jews were settled in Dublin... not the same...
Anyway, i leave the creature to you...


Irrelevant, as if there had been a real resettlement operation that would have given him the location, not the clearly false destination that he repeated in 1977.

I cannot believe that Klutzaka put this in her denier screed, it refutes the resettlement thesis more than anything else basically. I am of the opinion that that was the greatest denier own-goal of all time.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:31 am

Monstrous wrote:
Dodging!


It'c called a TKO blow dumbass. And you are the one on the floor.

No Believer reply to why Bormann is a denier, when considering that the Believer believe that Hitler had already confessed the Holocaust to the whole world in his public speeches!


Do you propose that Bormann would have admitted to German soldiers and bureaucrats outside of the loop what was going on? Of course not. This if anything proves our point. As I stated so presciently earlier Stalin would count as a Holodomar denier by this absurd, refuted, shattered standard.

Next! :lol:

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:37 am

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous does not think so. They were settled here and there. Including in Russia.


Then why were the AR camps listed as Final destinations in all relevant documents? Why were the Jews explicitly stated as "not in Ghettos or Concentration camps" in the Koherr report? Why did population statistics form the Eastern RK's reflect a decreasing number of Jews in those areas during the period when the population would have been exploding had your ever-so-fluffy "resettlement" been underway?

Show me the name of just on place they were sent to, just one. It cannot be in RK Ostland, or RK Ukraine, as those areas had no increase in Jewish population during that time. It cannot be in any ghetto or KL as those possibilities were ruled out by the Koherr report. Where? Curacao? Mongolia? Skokie Illinois?

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:40 am

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous already linked to a map showing some of the 40,000+ camps/ghettos.


........ none of which were destinations. See the Koherr report. I forbid you from making any comment until you address this or attempt to. If you fail to respond to my satisfaction I will put you on ignore.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:45 am

Monstrous wrote:Various statements on Jews being sent to Russia


None of which make sense, all of which contradict each other, and none of which are backed up by a shred of evidence. They are refuted more than anything else by the contents of the Koherr report and all relevent docs on the AR camps.

See the Holocaust Handbooks on the AR camps by MGK.


These have been refuted at length and are now somewhat less valuable and credible than wet toilet paper.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:48 am

Monstrous wrote:
SM has in fact not explained why Bormann is contradicting Hitler's public confession.


Pathetic, desperate strawman.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:57 am

Monstrous wrote:Fascinating that the Believers have stopped talking about Auschwitz and the other camps.


Wrong. Berger's book on T4 and AR came out three years ago. I can name more tomorrow.

Too much contradictory evidence?


Hardly. You have yet to make a non-ridiculous point about either Auschwitz or AR that we have not been able to bat away.

Now it is all about what supposedly occurred in Russia which conveniently do not have any large material remains which may contradict the Believer version and where all documents have passed through Communist censorship.


I can't name a single doc that was censored or edited by the Soviets. And they were so pathetic at this kind thing that it would have been noticed by historians by now. The interrogation of Pavel Leleko for example was basically shoved down the memory hole and not accessed until decades after the fact. Same goes for the recently unearthed parts of Himmler's appointment book. Do you propose that the appointment book was forged and that the ewiw wussians waited 70 years and one regime change to release it as part of some multi-generational plot? You never cease to amaze me in your ability to construct absurd fantasy after absurd fantasy.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:02 am

Monstrous wrote:
Again, this is what the Communists forced Höss to write. No Communist Holocaust denial!


Hoess wrote that in his own, without influence of any kind. He had no real grasp of statistics and his command of the numbers was foggy by his own admission.

It amuses me that you state that he was forced to write that when in that very same autobiography he bitched endlessly about the actual torture he had experienced after his arrest, and the mistreatment he had experienced in prison in Poland. It was an angry, unrepentant book and does not bear any resemblance to a false confession.

Have you looked at actual false confessions from Soviet Show Trials? I suggest you star with the "confessions" of Iona Yakir, Nikolai Bukharin, and Karl Radek. They were over the top, hyperbolic, full of Marxist jargon, and gave fawning praise to the USSR and Stalin. You see none of that in Hoess's memoir. His words are his and they stand for themselves.

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:38 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:. . . The Jaeger report is obviously an anti-Lithuanian ploy.

Jaeger himself attested to compiling statistics in his trial testimony.

Actually, Jäger never testified in court, as he committed suicide before his trial. He was interrogated whilst in custody, however, and ironically his interrogation statements, not the details of his Report, were "obviously an anti-Lithuanian ploy." Jäger's interrogation replies also included the standard defenses (e.g., superior orders, inner feelings) used by the perpetrators in the NMT EG trial - and Jäger added in the novel "things happened all by themselves" defense:
When I arrived in Kauen (Kaunas) the shootings of Jews were already under way, i.e. Jews had already been shot and were being shot. These shootings were supposed to have been carried out by the Lithuanian auxiliary police. Who told me so I don't know; I hardly think that I received a service report about this from Hamann or Wolf. On whose instructions these shootings were carried out is not known to me. Neither can I say whether Ehrlinger or Wolf with their people took an active part. Tolerate it they certainly did, for otherwise the shootings by the Lithuanians would not have continued. I myself also didn't interdict these shootings, because through Heydrich's address on occasion of the meeting in Berlin it had been established that the Jews in the East must be shot. Besides this address by Heydrich I had until then received no more detailed oral or written order from the RSHA or from another entity.

I saw this statement of Heydrich's as a binding order that upon taking up my activity in the East the Jews were to be shot. Therefore I did nothing against these shootings. Inside however I rejected them and considered it cruel and terrible that people were being killed or were to be killed only because of their faith and their race. I wish to point out, however, that I never issued an order to any member of my office to shoot a certain number of Jews or to shoot Jews at all. I also didn’t have to do this, because things happened all by themselves.

How many Jews had already been shot until my arrival or during the first days I cannot say, but there may have been several thousand. As I remember these shootings were carried out in the old Forts 7 and 9 in Kauen. Whether at the time of my arrival or shortly thereafter Jews were also shot in Wilna, I no longer know. I consider it quite possible, however.

When I arrived at Kauen there was a Lithuanian police there authorized by the Germans. The commander of the security police was the Lithuanian Cenkus. Furthermore there was a so-called shooting detachment, about 50 to 100 Lithuanians strong, under the Lithuanian lieutenant Norkus.

Norkus and his detachment were later subordinated to Hamann and carried out the shootings of Jews together with him. Hamann acted in complete independence. I never gave him shooting orders. I only received reports about the number of those shot from case to case. These were then reported via Stahlecker to the RSHA in the Action Reports (Ereignismeldungen) together with other situation reports that bore my signature. The Action Reports were put together from the various sections' individual reports by my office - "topkick" Porst – and submitted to me for signature.

This exculpatory narrative, given when the authorities were not yet aware of Jäger's report, flies directly in the face of his 1941 statement that the executions of Jews in Lithuanian were "carried out by Lithuanian partisans on my instructions and under my command."
from interrogation protocol, quoted in HC series on Jäger report
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- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:41 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:All righty then, everyone uses documents that are in former Soviet archives - but Monstrous doesn't like some of these documents. He won't identify which ones he thinks are fabricated, although he's been asked many times to do so.


Recall that he earlier stated that there were "maybe ten" "forgeries" not linked to the EG's? He has blown past that number by at least an order of magnitude. Call it self contradiction of you want, but he is full of {!#%@}.

Which is why neither he nor Clown Mary will set down for us their list of claimed fabricated documents. It's pure bullcrap - they pull "forgeries" from a dark place whenever one is "needed."
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:42 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Balsamo wrote:or Korherr SAID he believed the Jews were settled in Dublin... not the same...
Anyway, i leave the creature to you...


Irrelevant, as if there had been a real resettlement operation that would have given him the location, not the clearly false destination that he repeated in 1977.

I cannot believe that Klutzaka put this in her denier screed, it refutes the resettlement thesis more than anything else basically. I am of the opinion that that was the greatest denier own-goal of all time.

In Dublin the stout would have been appealing, but the Irish have the gift of gab and surely someone would have mentioned 3 million Jews descending on the city.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:46 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Dodging!


It'c called a TKO blow dumbass. And you are the one on the floor.

No Believer reply to why Bormann is a denier, when considering that the Believer believe that Hitler had already confessed the Holocaust to the whole world in his public speeches!


Do you propose that Bormann would have admitted to German soldiers and bureaucrats outside of the loop what was going on? Of course not. This if anything proves our point. As I stated so presciently earlier Stalin would count as a Holodomar denier by this absurd, refuted, shattered standard.

Next! :lol:

Remember: Monstrous doesn't know, or he intentionally conceals, the purpose of the Bormann circular. Bormann issued the circular to provide propaganda talking points to counteract rumors of German mass killings of Jews in the east, which he noted had been circulating inside Germany. The first paragraph of the circular specifically explains this purpose.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Balsamo » Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:36 pm

oups :nownow:

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Re: Bormann, monstrous Holocaust denier

Postby Monstrous » Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:12 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:But the Believers state that Hitler had confessed the Holocaust in his public speeches!

Why then would Bormann deny this?


Bormann's memo was a change of tone and resort to absolute secrecy. The German public was becoming increasingly aware of what was going on, soldiers would write to their families about it, Hans-Joachim Marsaille, the famed Luftwaffe pilot, overheard SS officers discussing it at a party in Berlin and informed his squadron mates. It was apparently common knowledge among Reichsbahn workers. Bormann's circular was an effort to clamp down on the rumor mill.

Thus did not prevent Hitler from acknowledging it in private to Horthy in 1943.

Dodging!

No Believer reply to why Bormann is a denier, when considering that the Believer believe that Hitler had already confessed the Holocaust to the whole world in his public speeches!

False. I've linked you to posts explaining the Bormann circular, in the light of other evidence about the east (from Katzmann) - and, speaking of dodges, requested you tell us where in the east Bormann meant and provide evidence for Jews being sent there.

Monstrous checked.

SM has in fact not explained why Bormann is contradicting Hitler's public confession.

You can type whatever you wish. But you're a dishonest {!#%@}. I told you that Bormann's circular was "the propaganda explanation" for party members and the rationale they were to use, "transported still farther to the East," was not possible in reality. {!#%@} deal with it but do not lie about it.

Cannot dodge the Monstrous!

Monstrous can really sense that the Believers really want to confess that Hitler did not confess the Holocaust in his public speeches and that "Vernichtung" does not necessarily mean "extermination!!! But what would happen then!?

Blasphemy!!! Will the Believers be merely imprisoned for Holocaust denial? Or maybe turned to a pillar of salt and placed for public scorn and admonition in a Holocaust temple portico?

Keep on dodging.... You cannot escape the Monstrous!


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