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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Denying-History » Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:36 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Thanks Hans nice to see you among us lowlifes! That of course gets at some of my observations about Mattogno above and it matches fairly well with Jäger report, which deniers here describe as a forgery. Jäger report % of Jewish victims in operations of EK3 is actually in the high 90s.


It also clearly reads that their job was to make Lithuania free of Jews. Which they achieved other then work Jews. Believe this is all said on page 7.

Edit: expanded on.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:25 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Thanks Hans nice to see you among us lowlifes! That of course gets at some of my observations about Mattogno above and it matches fairly well with Jäger report, which deniers here describe as a forgery. Jäger report % of Jewish victims in operations of EK3 is actually in the high 90s.


It also clearly reads that their job was to make Lithuania free of Jews. Which they achieved other then work Jews. Believe this is all said on page 7.

Edit: expanded on.

Reviewed in depth in the Einsatzgruppen Reports Forgery thread, starting here, - a thread initiated by an apparently unserious revisionist. I always thought so actually. Discussion here of Jäger's statement of the goal of "making Lithuania free of Jews." More throughout the thread.

Data from Jäger here - 98 percent of victims Jewish.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:42 pm

I dunno about all the serious revisionists we've heard about in this thread.

Another apparently unserious revisionist is J. Graf who wrote, in typically revisionist sneering prose, the following against Christian Lindtner (and much more worth reading here):
As proof for the alleged huge slaughter in the occupied Eastern territories, first and foremost are cited the so-called "Ereignismeldungen” (event reports) of the four Einsatzgruppen. These documents cover the period from June 1941 to May 1942 and mention numerous massacres, with victims occasionally numbering in five-digit figures. The "Ereignismeldungen” were supposedly found by the Allies in the Berlin RSHA. That the Germans let this sort of incriminating material fall into the hands of their enemies is strikingly odd.

Graf then gives his compromised version of Babi Yar and concludes, contrary to what we’ve been told so far,
So the report from 7 October 1941, which mentions an imaginary slaughter, is a fraud. This means that all other Einsatzgruppen reports are equally suspect from the beginning.

Graf further dismisses Aktion 1005 saying that
the whole tale is exclusively based on "eyewitness evidence”, "confessions” and post-war trials where such "eyewitness evidence” and "confessions” formed the sole basis of the accusation.

Sergey Romanov at HC and I in the Einstagruppen Forgery thread have shown Graf to be mistaken or lying about the absence of German documentation for SK-1005. And of course Graf discusses the supposed lack of forensic evidence.

Graf's laughable "dissection" of the Jäger report is here; Graf cites some surviving young and old people in Lithuania after EK3's depredations, and throws in some transfers that took place in 1944!, and writes that all this
definiteley refutes the Jäger report and raises doubts about its authenticity (unless Jäger deliberatedly lied, which is not impossible, but rather unlikely).

Lindtner dealing with Graf is here.

I'm beginning to think that some revisionists who think themselves serious researchers make a number of claims about the open-air killings that differ to what we have been assured in this thread is their view.

(I added the boldface above.)
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:55 pm

A book on Treblinka by Mattogno and Graf delves into the shootings in the East, arguing
. . . we will now turn to the question of whether this systematic extermination of Jews in the eastern territories actually occurred. In clarifying this question, the examination of the Einsatzgruppen and their missions will play a central role.

Soon after the German invasion into the USSR, four Einsatzgruppen altogether numbering 3,000 men - including non-combat troops such as vehicle drivers, interpreters, and radiomen[576] - became operational in the conquered regions. One of their missions indisputably consisted of securing the rear, i.e., fighting against partisans. According to the official historiography, however, other, more sinister tasks were assigned to the Einsatzgruppen beyond this. By referring to a post-war affidavit by Otto Ohlendorf,[577] leader of Einsatzgruppe D, Raul Hilberg summarizes as follows:[578]

"According to Ohlendorf, the commanders of the Einsatzgruppen were briefed by Himmler personally. They were informed that an important part of their task was the elimination (Beseitigung) of Jews - women, men, and children - and of Communist functionaries."

According to Hilberg, the Einsatzgruppen killed over 900,000 Soviet Jews, which corresponded to approximately "two-thirds" of the Jewish victims in the territories conquered by the Germans; the rest were killed by Wehrmacht, SS, police units, as well as Rumanians allied with the Germans, or died in camps and ghettos.[579]

As proof for the several hundred thousand murders committed by the Einsatzgruppen, first and foremost are cited the so-called "Ereignismeldungen" (Event Reports), which fall in the period from June 1941 to May 1942 and mention numerous massacres with victims occasionally numbering in five digit figures. The documents are supposed to have been found by the Allies in the offices of the Berlin Reichssicherheitshauptamt. That the Germans let this sort of incriminating material fall into the hands of their enemies, although they could have easily burned the few stacks of papers in time, is strikingly odd. In fact, some revisionist researchers have expressed doubt in the authenticity of the incident reports and are of the opinion that at least in a portion of them we are dealing with manipulated documents. The main argument for this thesis lies in the absence of evidence for mass killings of the scope claimed; we shall return to this question. Further grounds are advanced by Arthur Butz:[580]

"They [the documents] were mimeographed, and signatures are most rare and, when they occur, appear on non-incriminating pages. Document NO-3159, for example, has a signature of a R. R. Strauch, but only on a covering page giving the locations of various units of the Einsatzgruppen. There is also NO-1128, allegedly from Himmler to Hitler reporting, among other things, the execution of 363,211 Russian Jews in August-November 1942. This claim occurs on page 4 of NO-1128, while initials said to be Himmler 's occur on the irrelevant page 1. Moreover, Himmler's initials were easy to forge: three vertical lines with a horizontal line drawn through them."

Udo Walendy adds:[581]

"As the American military court in the OKW Trial [Oberkommando der Wehrmacht, General Headquarters] already stated, even this court was surprised at how conspicuously vague the existing 'USSR Event Reports' were with respect to location, point in time, units, and other details such as troop strength, armaments, auxiliary forces, logistics etc. Merely the number on a piece of paper, which was written or is supposed to have been written in Berlin, is too little a proof for an historian, even if the report itself is possibly authentic and only the number legible today on this piece of paper may have been manipulated, which at a closer examination of the documents seems to be the case."

A still more weighty argument is that a policy of mass extermination in the occupied Soviet territories would have stood in glaring contrast not only to the National-Socialist policy of resettlement of the Jews to the east (cf. Chapters VI and VIII), but also to several reports of the Einsatzgruppen themselves. We have already determined that the "reports from the occupied eastern territories" no. 9 from June 26, 1942, following a description of the ghettoization measures taken by the Security Police and the steps toward exploitation of the work force of the Ruthenian Jews, conclude as follows:[582]

"With these measures, the foundations for the later intended final solution of the European Jewish question have been created for the White Russian territory as well."

Event Report no. 52 from August 14, 1941, proposed employing the great mass of the Jews in the following project:[583]

"Cultivation of the Pripyet marshes and the marshes on the northern Dnieper as well as the Volga."

In the following, we restrain ourselves from taking any position regarding the authenticity of the Event Reports and merely examine the question of whether the content of the documents, independent of their authenticity, reflects historical facts.

No less a "serious revisionist researcher" than Mattogno, with Graf, then is under the mistaken impression that other serious revisionist researchers have written against the authenticity of the EG reports, some of them (which ones? those inconvenient to revisionist histories?) likely having been manipulated. Mattogno and Graf, for their part, include some of the same sneering formulations that found their way into Graf's debate with Lindtner and, having kicked up enough dirt and dust, "restrain" themselves to showing, they say, why the reports cannot have described actual events.

It's a bonus that M&G think the refutation of the EG reports (the "still more weighty argument") is the duo's presumption of a resettlement program that BRoI tells us didn't exist.

(boldface above also added)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:35 pm

In fact...at least in a portion of them we are dealing with manipulated documents. The main argument for this thesis lies in the absence of evidence for mass killings of the scope claimed...Further grounds are advanced by Arthur Butz:[580]

"They [the documents] were mimeographed, and signatures are most rare and, when they occur, appear on non-incriminating pages...

:doh:
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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby BRoI » Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:45 pm

I'm beginning to think that some revisionists who think themselves serious researchers make a number of claims about the open-air killings that differ to what we have been assured in this thread is their view.


I told you earlier Graf questions the Babi Yar killings and thereby the EG Reports in his relatively minuscule contribution to MGK's 2013 HC response.
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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:07 pm

Yes, you did; and I went ahead and added about Graf that, in his back and forth with Lindtner, he went beyond that. Then I wanted to add that Mattogno & Graf try raising doubt as to the documents' authenticity, say that the reports don't describe actual events, and have the view that some revisionists have expressed doubt in the authenticity of the reports. It's just that, as we chat about this, we learn that leading revisionists actually do contest quite a bit to do with the mass shootings in the East. I think your original post on this plays down the revisionist obfuscations on the operations of the Einstazgruppen and other units - after all, you'd said you didn't think "any serious revisionist researcher" has claimed that key documents are falsified.

But to cut to the chase, perhaps what I should have asked: do you generally agree with revisionists like Graf and Mattogno on the mass shootings in the East? Conversely, you say that there's no sustained revisionist treatment of these operations - is there a sustained treatment that, generally, does a good job describing the killing operations in the East and accounting for the high Jewish death toll? Something like Angrick & Klein's book on Riga or Kay's on Filbert? Do you contest their major findings?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Aaron Richards » Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:09 pm

Regarding Jürgen Graf, one point he does raze that (to his credit) I can't dismiss with a casual handwave is his observation in "Giant with Feet of Clay", on page 41 where he claims that Einsatzgruppe A had 990 members, then subtracts all truck drivers and women from the equation because they apparently cannot operate a gun according to him, and then says it is impossible for the remainder to have killed some 125,000 Jews over the period of 2 months.

I think each soldier tasked with killing some 130 people over this period of time should have no problem, given that the victims were unarmed and marched to their deaths in an orderly fashion. Jürgen Graf, in his infinite wisdom, of course also assumes no local militia assisted the Einsatzgruppen whatsoever in rounding up and killing Jews.
"...we had the duty towards our Volk (the German people) to kill this Volk (the Jewish people) that wanted to kill us." - Himmler in his 1943 Posen speech reminding any future holocaust denier how absurd their beliefs really are.
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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:14 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:Regarding Jürgen Graf, one point he does raze that (to his credit) I can't dismiss with a casual handwave is his observation in "Giant with Feet of Clay", on page 41 where he claims that Einsatzgruppe A had 990 members, then subtracts all truck drivers and women from the equation because they apparently cannot operate a gun according to him, and then says it is impossible for the remainder to have killed some 125,000 Jews over the period of 2 months.

I think each soldier tasked with killing some 130 people over this period of time should have no problem, given that the victims were unarmed and marched to their deaths in an orderly fashion. Jürgen Graf, in his infinite wisdom, of course also assumes no local militia assisted the Einsatzgruppen whatsoever in rounding up and killing Jews.

Not sure why this is a good point, because as you say, in many, many cases the shooters were the local auxiliaries. He is ignoring Baltic auxiliaries like the so-called Lithuanian Shaulists or in Latvia Arajs Kommando.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:16 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:Regarding Jürgen Graf, one point he does raze that (to his credit) I can't dismiss with a casual handwave is his observation in "Giant with Feet of Clay", on page 41 where he claims that Einsatzgruppe A had 990 members, then subtracts all truck drivers and women from the equation because they apparently cannot operate a gun according to him, and then says it is impossible for the remainder to have killed some 125,000 Jews over the period of 2 months.

I think each soldier tasked with killing some 130 people over this period of time should have no problem, given that the victims were unarmed and marched to their deaths in an orderly fashion. Jürgen Graf, in his infinite wisdom, of course also assumes no local militia assisted the Einsatzgruppen whatsoever in rounding up and killing Jews.


Keep in mind that Himmler reinforced the Einsatzgruppen with SS Cavalry and Order Police, about 30,000 men.

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:07 am

Aaron Richards wrote:Regarding Jürgen Graf, one point he does raze that (to his credit) I can't dismiss with a casual handwave is his observation in "Giant with Feet of Clay", on page 41 where he claims that Einsatzgruppe A had 990 members, then subtracts all truck drivers and women from the equation because they apparently cannot operate a gun according to him, and then says it is impossible for the remainder to have killed some 125,000 Jews over the period of 2 months.

I think each soldier tasked with killing some 130 people over this period of time should have no problem, given that the victims were unarmed and marched to their deaths in an orderly fashion. Jürgen Graf, in his infinite wisdom, of course also assumes no local militia assisted the Einsatzgruppen whatsoever in rounding up and killing Jews.


Steered you wrong on this one:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... altic.html

Looking at it again the Einzatgruppen utilized locals in the Baltics.

Sorry about that, I'm batting 0.00 today.

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:09 am

No, your point is correct for Belorussia and Ukraine. But, yes, the Germans augmented Einsatzgruppen A in the Baltics with local so-called partisans. To give an idea of this, relative to EK-3, we have this, from a post I made in the Einsatzgruppen thread:
Einsatzgruppen report no. 17 refers to “250 men of the Lithuanian partisans . . . being employed for future executions” in Lithuania; these men were just those from Kaunas in early July. EG no. 21 mentions members of “the Lithuanian Ordnungdienst” in Vilnius placed under the EK there to assist in “liquidation of the Jews,” putting at 150 the number of men involved (EK3 didn’t take over operations in this area until 9 August but co-opted the locals who’d been supporting German operations - EK9 - until then). Hamann’s Rollkommando was not tightly organized and could IIRC call on and make use of Lithuanian as needed. Hamann had a core of at minimum about 60 mechanized Lithuanian troops, but he certainly had 100s of men at his disposal. Arad (Ghetto in Flames) writes of “a force of several hundred soldiers” (p 172) available as needed to the German EGs operating across Lithuania
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:11 am

Aaron Richards wrote:Regarding Jürgen Graf, one point he does raze that (to his credit) I can't dismiss with a casual handwave is his observation in "Giant with Feet of Clay", on page 41 where he claims that Einsatzgruppe A had 990 members, then subtracts all truck drivers and women from the equation because they apparently cannot operate a gun according to him, and then says it is impossible for the remainder to have killed some 125,000 Jews over the period of 2 months.

I think each soldier tasked with killing some 130 people over this period of time should have no problem, given that the victims were unarmed and marched to their deaths in an orderly fashion. Jürgen Graf, in his infinite wisdom, of course also assumes no local militia assisted the Einsatzgruppen whatsoever in rounding up and killing Jews.


I recommend Ordinary Men if you haven't read it.

I do not recommend Hitler's Willing Executioners.

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Denying-History » Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:17 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Aaron Richards wrote:Regarding Jürgen Graf, one point he does raze that (to his credit) I can't dismiss with a casual handwave is his observation in "Giant with Feet of Clay", on page 41 where he claims that Einsatzgruppe A had 990 members, then subtracts all truck drivers and women from the equation because they apparently cannot operate a gun according to him, and then says it is impossible for the remainder to have killed some 125,000 Jews over the period of 2 months.

I think each soldier tasked with killing some 130 people over this period of time should have no problem, given that the victims were unarmed and marched to their deaths in an orderly fashion. Jürgen Graf, in his infinite wisdom, of course also assumes no local militia assisted the Einsatzgruppen whatsoever in rounding up and killing Jews.


I recommend Ordinary Men if you haven't read it.

I do not recommend Hitler's Willing Executioners.


His 2nd book is coming out in 2017. You can actually pre-order it on iBook for $10, so I'm thinking about doing so. Christopher's first book was pretty good, though, I am not sure I would ever pay the price for a hard copy.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:23 am

Browning? Whose 2nd book?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby BRoI » Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:26 am

Yes, you did; and I went ahead and added about Graf that, in his back and forth with Lindtner, he went beyond that. Then I wanted to add that Mattogno & Graf try raising doubt as to the documents' authenticity, say that the reports don't describe actual events, and have the view that some revisionists have expressed doubt in the authenticity of the reports. It's just that, as we chat about this, we learn that leading revisionists actually do contest quite a bit to do with the mass shootings in the East. I think your original post on this plays down the revisionist obfuscations on the operations of the Einstazgruppen and other units - after all, you'd said you didn't think "any serious revisionist researcher" has claimed that key documents are falsified.

I didn't remember that part of their 2004 Treblinka book. The Walendy assertion looks worth checking.

That particular chapter [no. 5] was written by Mattogno, and, okay, sure; you can stretch it to he "expressed doubt in the authenticity of the reports", but c'mon, he hardly dwells on the matter. In his far more recent work [2013 book on HC] he accepts their authenticity without question. Graf is clearly far more extreme on the EG Reports; claiming in 2013, as I've mentioned, that the *hoax* of Babi Yar "casts doubts on the authenticity, or veracity, of the Einsatzgruppen reports as a whole." In my speedily-composed-post I didn't intentionally "[play] down the revisionist obfuscations on the operations of the Einstazgruppen and other units", although clearly I didn't cover absolutely everything. But I still think Graf's 2013 strong doubts are more relevant than Mattogno's 2004 briefly mentioned mild ones.


But to cut to the chase, perhaps what I should have asked: do you generally agree with revisionists like Graf and Mattogno on the mass shootings in the East?

No, I don't agree with Graf's views, which, I now remember, he expands on greatly in his book on Hilberg. I don't know, or can't remember, what Mattogno's written on these matters upto now.


Conversely, you say that there's no sustained revisionist treatment of these operations - is there a sustained treatment that, generally, does a good job describing the killing operations in the East and accounting for the high Jewish death toll? Something like Angrick & Klein's book on Riga or Kay's on Filbert? Do you contest their major findings?

I've not read either of those studies. ‎I've read some of Wendy Lower's stuff, but, TBH, I was more interested in the details she provided on the trials that the Soviet conducted after the war.
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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Denying-History » Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:29 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Browning? Whose 2nd book?


Yeah Christopher Browning is releasing another book. I think it comes out on Fed 28th 2017.

Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland

It's just a revised edition but it's expanded something like 50 pages.
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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:47 am

BRoI wrote:
Yes, you did; and I went ahead and added about Graf that, in his back and forth with Lindtner, he went beyond that. Then I wanted to add that Mattogno & Graf try raising doubt as to the documents' authenticity, say that the reports don't describe actual events, and have the view that some revisionists have expressed doubt in the authenticity of the reports. It's just that, as we chat about this, we learn that leading revisionists actually do contest quite a bit to do with the mass shootings in the East. I think your original post on this plays down the revisionist obfuscations on the operations of the Einstazgruppen and other units - after all, you'd said you didn't think "any serious revisionist researcher" has claimed that key documents are falsified.

I didn't remember that part of their 2004 Treblinka book. The Walendy assertion looks worth checking.

That particular chapter [no. 5] was written by Mattogno, and, okay, sure; you can stretch it to he "expressed doubt in the authenticity of the reports", but c'mon, he hardly dwells on the matter.

I agree he doesn't dwell on it - but his tone and non-dwelling on it are dismissive of the evidence and issues. That's part of what I see as a problem - these glancing bits of dismissive snakiness without really dealing with the problem. We will disagree with this - but I think that serious deniers are more tangled up in obfuscation of the topic than you do. I take that passage as an example. I was more, or at least equally, interested in his view that "some revisionist researchers have expressed doubt in the authenticity of the incident reports and are of the opinion that at least in a portion of them we are dealing with manipulated documents."

BRoI wrote:In his far more recent work [2013 book on HC] he accepts their authenticity without question.

I forget and don't feel like looking tonight - does he retain the argument that even if authentic the reports don't "reflect[] historical facts."

BRoI wrote:In my speedily-composed-post I didn't intentionally "[play] down the revisionist obfuscations on the operations of the Einstazgruppen and other units", although clearly I didn't cover absolutely everything.

Fair enough. That is what I am probing for. You have, and we have, a history, right? So I am trying to get clear on your thoughts.

BRoI wrote:
But to cut to the chase, perhaps what I should have asked: do you generally agree with revisionists like Graf and Mattogno on the mass shootings in the East?

No, I don't agree with Graf's views, which, I now remember, he expands on greatly in his book on Hilberg. I don't know, or can't remember, what Mattogno's written on these matters upto now.

Thanks, that does answer that part of what I was asking.

BRoI wrote:
Conversely, you say that there's no sustained revisionist treatment of these operations - is there a sustained treatment that, generally, does a good job describing the killing operations in the East and accounting for the high Jewish death toll? Something like Angrick & Klein's book on Riga or Kay's on Filbert? Do you contest their major findings?

I've not read either of those studies. ‎I've read some of Wendy Lower's stuff, but, TBH, I was more interested in the details she provided on the trials that the Soviet conducted after the war.

FWIW, they're both very worthwhile, Kay's being a bit of a wild ride written in almost boring prose. He has very interesting material on Filbert's postwar career.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:49 am

NathanC wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:And Himmler referring to Sobibor as a transit camp. Even though we all know that's a euphemism for a death camp, he did use that word.

Link and/or quotation? Thank you.


There was a well known report wherein Himmler said that the "Transit Camp" at Sobibor would be converted into a concentration camp for the processing of ammunition.

At the same or earlier time, though. An SS man named Fischmann described an arrival at the Sobibor "Work Camp". The context however makes it clear that it was an extermination transport.

How does the context make it clear that it was an extermination camp?

It also mentions that the "laborers'" luggage was sent in a different direction to Lublin, where some Jews still fit for labor were also taken off the transport.

I don't understand why the laborers luggage being sent to a camp where laborers were sent is evidence of evil intent.

Sobibor couldn't have been both a "labor" and "Transit camp" at the same time,

Why not?

and if it was a labor camp as Fischmann described it, Himmler's "conversion" order would not be necessary.

Why not? Were work camps and concentration camps operated the same jurisdiction?

This is why we know both terms were camouflage.

We know both terms were camouflage because any word used to describe a death camp is camouflage for death camp......obviously. So every time Himmler says 'transit camp' he really means death camp? What did he say when he meant "transit camp"? Meanwhile Fischmann uses the term "work camp" as camouflage for death camp? Did everybody in the SS get to choose their own camouflage word for death camp? If either of these guys didn't want anybody to know they were talking about a death camp, why didn't they just call it Sobibor and be done with it?
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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:11 pm

Leaving aside for the moment the broader context and a great deal of other evidence (about mass murder, confiscated property, camp installations, etc), even you may realize that this
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Sobibor couldn't have been both a "labor" and "Transit camp" at the same time,

Why not?

can cut another way. Why can't some number - small or large - of people be transited through a camp where others ("selected") are murdered? Kind of like Auschwitz or Majdanek.

For those interested in a fuller discussion of this, here's Roberto Muehlenkamp's HC blog piece on NO-482, the analysis of which begins with these three points:
• The camp held about 700 inmates at the time of the revolt on 14 October 1943;

• There’s no reason why a mere transit camp, a place where people were deloused and bathed and then put back on the train to their final destinations, should have required such a large labor force, which was not much smaller than that of Treblinka Labor Camp; and

• The fact that Globocnik, Pohl and eventually also Himmler considered Sobibór suitable for installing an ammunition-processing station without any transformation, obviously due to the size of its inmate population, shows that Sobibór was not what it was being called in the correspondence between Himmler and Pohl, i.e. not a transit camp.

Muehlenkamp goes on to discuss other parts of the context, focusing on the incongruity of property confiscation at Sobibór with a resettlement thesis, at great length.

Mary, you forgot to ask our newest member his thoughts about a number of German documents he mentioned (Brack's letter NO 205, British intercepts, Goebbels' diary entry for 27 March 1942, personnel paperwork connecting T4 and Einsatz Reinhard, T4 gas chambers, the Paul Karl Schmidt message - decoded) and some of his other points (e.g., aerial photographs of Auschwitz, Moll’s testimony). Anyway, I am interested in the new member's thoughts on the points he mentioned.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby NathanC » Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:38 pm

How does the context make it clear that it was an extermination camp?

I didn't say the context made it clear it was an extermination camp. I said it made it clear it was an extermination transport -i.e. a death train. Learn to read. Fischmann talked about the horrible conditions on the train, and their policy of shooting anyone who tried to escape.
It also mentions that the "laborers'" luggage was sent in a different direction to Lublin, where some Jews still fit for labor were also taken off the transport.


I don't understand why the laborers luggage being sent to a camp where laborers were sent is evidence of evil intent.


Out of the entire transport, only 51 were selected for labor at Lublin. Everyone else was sent ahead to Sobibor. However, everyone's belongings were sent to Lublin. Even the ones belonging to those sent to Sobibor. Again, learn to read.


why not?

If it was a transit camp, as Himmler called it, why did Fischmann describe it as a "labor camp"? And vice versa. If it was already a "labor camp", why did Himmler need to order a "conversion"? Both of them are BS, just like you.

Maryzilla's time would be better spent on Jeff's "hoax" thread, instead of here. Or maybe not, since he ran away from it in the first place because he had nothing.
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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:45 pm

Recall also that in 1944 correspondence IIRC Sobibór (from I believe Benda) the camp is described as "Sonderlager Sobibór"; one document only with Mary it seems.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:19 pm

Black Rabbit,

So, if you will be sticking around, I have another question. You wrote
Selective killings clearly went at all KL under the Action 14f13 and the subsequent similar programmes in which sick or unproductive prisoners were taken to former T4 institutes to be injected or "gassed". As for the generally accepted view of 5 cremas & 2 bunkers all with one or more GCs in which c.850K Jews were gassed, I not sure that's entirely true.

I am curious about the not entirely true part, again generally speaking, big stuff in the Auschwitz 5-vol history or Piper or Hans' suff that you're not convinced by. Main points of contention or main open issues, in your mind.

If there's interest, I will open a thread on Auschwitz, which might be good because we haven't had one in quite awhile.

Thanks, SM
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:09 pm

NathanC wrote:
How does the context make it clear that it was an extermination camp?

I didn't say the context made it clear it was an extermination camp. I said it made it clear it was an extermination transport -i.e. a death train. Learn to read. Fischmann talked about the horrible conditions on the train, and their policy of shooting anyone who tried to escape.

You're right. My bad. I misread what you wrote. But wouldn't every transport to an extermination camp be an "extermination transport"? Or are you saying that the ride on the train was the extermination process? "Horrible conditions" on train doesn't mean much without any detail. "Horrible conditions" can develop on a cruise ship if it loses its power and the plumbing fails. "Horrible conditions" can develop when a hurricane forces thousands of people into a flooded stadium. And shooting prisoners trying to escape is pretty standard procedure
It also mentions that the "laborers'" luggage was sent in a different direction to Lublin, where some Jews still fit for labor were also taken off the transport.


I don't understand why the laborers luggage being sent to a camp where laborers were sent is evidence of evil intent.


Out of the entire transport, only 51 were selected for labor at Lublin. Everyone else was sent ahead to Sobibor. However, everyone's belongings were sent to Lublin. Even the ones belonging to those sent to Sobibor. Again, learn to read.

You didn't explain that the first time around. Learn to write. But now you're saying that an entire transport was brought to Lublin. 51 people were selected for labor at Lublin. The remainder were sent ahead to Sobibor. But all their luggage was sent to Lublin. Was the luggage sent in a different transport? What are you trying to say here?


why not?

If it was a transit camp, as Himmler called it, why did Fischmann describe it as a "labor camp"? And vice versa. If it was already a "labor camp", why did Himmler need to order a "conversion"? Both of them are BS, just like you.

If two people use different words to describe the type of camp, it means one or both of them are using the wrong word. That doesn't make it a "death camp" Himmler didnt call it a "labor" camp. He called it a transit camp that was to be converted into a concentration camp. You conveniently ignored my question about nomenclature. Did everybody in the SS use a different camouflage term when describing a death camp?

Maryzilla's time would be better spent on Jeff's "hoax" thread, instead of here. Or maybe not, since he ran away from it in the first place because he had nothing.[/quote]
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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby NathanC » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:37 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
NathanC wrote:
How does the context make it clear that it was an extermination camp?

I didn't say the context made it clear it was an extermination camp. I said it made it clear it was an extermination transport -i.e. a death train. Learn to read. Fischmann talked about the horrible conditions on the train, and their policy of shooting anyone who tried to escape.

You're right. My bad. I misread what you wrote. But wouldn't every transport to an extermination camp be an "extermination transport"? Or are you saying that the ride on the train was the extermination process? "Horrible conditions" on train doesn't mean much without any detail. "Horrible conditions" can develop on a cruise ship if it loses its power and the plumbing fails. "Horrible conditions" can develop when a hurricane forces thousands of people into a flooded stadium


Horrible conditions were deliberately produced with the intent of maximizing casualties.

It also mentions that the "laborers'" luggage was sent in a different direction to Lublin, where some Jews still fit for labor were also taken off the transport.


I don't understand why the laborers luggage being sent to a camp where laborers were sent is evidence of evil intent.


Out of the entire transport, only 51 were selected for labor at Lublin. Everyone else was sent ahead to Sobibor. However, everyone's belongings were sent to Lublin. Even the ones belonging to those sent to Sobibor. Again, learn to read.

You didn't explain that the first time around. Learn to write.

I did explain it quite clearly the first time. Read the bolded and underlined part. You're BS.


why not?

If it was a transit camp, as Himmler called it, why did Fischmann describe it as a "labor camp"? And vice versa. If it was already a "labor camp", why did Himmler need to order a "conversion"? Both of them are BS, just like you.

If two people use different words to describe the type of camp, it means one or both of them are using the wrong word. That doesn't make it a "death camp"

It's called "convergence of evidence", shithead. Look it up. The usage of two different terms for the same place in two official reports prove that both terms are intended to be camouflage. Nowhere did I say that this document or fact alone proves that Sobibor was an extermination camp, as your pathetic trolling implies. This taken with Fischmann's report shows that both terms were camouflage. Fischmann's description of the death train gives details as to what the actual purpose of the camp was. So does the information from Roberto Muehlenkamp. Like StatMech said earlier, there's a great deal of other evidence that proves what that camp was, your pathetic attempts at nitpicking notwithstanding.


Maryzilla's time would be better spent on Jeff's "hoax" thread, instead of here. Or maybe not, since he ran away from it in the first place because he had nothing.


Got it? Now {!#%@} off.

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby NathanC » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:48 pm

NathanC wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:And Himmler referring to Sobibor as a transit camp. Even though we all know that's a euphemism for a death camp, he did use that word.

Link and/or quotation? Thank you.


There was a well known report wherein Himmler said that the "Transit Camp" at Sobibor would be converted into a concentration camp for the processing of ammunition.

At the same or earlier time, though. An SS man named Fischmann described an arrival at the Sobibor "Work Camp". The context however makes it clear that it was an extermination transport. It also mentions that the "laborers'" luggage was sent in a different direction to Lublin, where some Jews still fit for labor were also taken off the transport. Sobibor couldn't have been both a "labor" and "Transit camp" at the same time, and if it was a labor camp as Fischmann described it, Himmler's "conversion" order would not be necessary. This is why we know both terms were camouflage.


God, I even said in my explanation to Statistical Mechanic that the point was that two pieces taken together prove that the terms were camouflage. Maryzilla's a piece of {!#%@} troll, as usual.

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:37 pm

NathanC wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
NathanC wrote:
How does the context make it clear that it was an extermination camp?

I didn't say the context made it clear it was an extermination camp. I said it made it clear it was an extermination transport -i.e. a death train. Learn to read. Fischmann talked about the horrible conditions on the train, and their policy of shooting anyone who tried to escape.

You're right. My bad. I misread what you wrote. But wouldn't every transport to an extermination camp be an "extermination transport"? Or are you saying that the ride on the train was the extermination process? "Horrible conditions" on train doesn't mean much without any detail. "Horrible conditions" can develop on a cruise ship if it loses its power and the plumbing fails. "Horrible conditions" can develop when a hurricane forces thousands of people into a flooded stadium


Horrible conditions were deliberately produced with the intent of maximizing casualties.

Comparing conditions on German transports - and pretending not to know about those conditions - to those on a cruise gone wrong is obscene. Pretending that unnatural disasters are the same as natural disasters is preposterous.

NathanC wrote:I did explain it quite clearly the first time. Read the bolded and underlined part. You're BS.

Yes you did. Mary is just negating every point you make to try to wind up with something. She's failing.

NathanC wrote:Got it? Now {!#%@} off.

I wonder if Mary will try pretending that this statement is also unclear.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby blastikus » Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:31 am

Aaron Richards wrote:https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/

It is getting bigger by the day and I'm having a field day going through it and seeing denierbud and pals get torn apart.


Interestingly a major predicate of Nazism and Neo-Nazism is refuted in the following article on a denialist site, in this article "German Nationalist Jews During the Weimar and Early Third Reich Eras": http://inconvenienthistory.com/5/3/3215

...but anyway, it should be noted that leading Holocaust revisionists have redacted their position: Christian Lindtner apparently helped organize the 2006 Tehran Holocaust conference. But see his interview with Alexander Jacob is here, rejecting holocaust denial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uEHXkaT80A - this seems to be based on the Eichmann items translated by Jacob here: https://www.blackhousepublishing.com/national-socialism

Also, here are some relevant excerpts from Francis Parker Yockey's Chicago FBI file here:
these two pages: https://archive.org/stream/foia_Yockey_ ... 7/mode/2up
this page (on the left): https://archive.org/stream/foia_Yockey_ ... 3/mode/2up -they establish his relevance as regards Nazi intelligence, and also create difficulties for those desiring to put forth a narrative of complete negationism. Moreover, even Irving himself notes some difficulties as established by the Höfle message in the files of decoded German SS and Police messages: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Hoe ... c_No2.html, this is another document establishing that definite transgressions took place. Also, I have seen this from a secondary source, but apparently the Hitler admirer Charles Augustus Lindbergh also, from personal witnessing of postwar conditions, would qualify his position - he noted that "What the German has done to the Jew in Europe, we have done to the Jap in the Pacific. As Germans defiled themselves by dumping the ashes of human beings into these pits, we have defiled ourselves bulldozing bodies into shallow, unmarked tropical graves. What is barbaric on one side of the Earth is barbaric on the other... It is not the Germans alone, or the Japs, but men of all nations to whom this war has brought shame and degradation." ("The wartime journals of Charles A. Lindbergh", Harcourt, Brace, Jovanovich, 1970, p. 997: http://tinyurl.com/jqbzpv3)

Peter Myers also published articles by Charles D. Provan, a Denier turned Believer. There are 3 versions: the text is the same in each, but the quality of the photos increases with the bigger versions.

Photos ok, size 1.8 MB: http://mailstar.net/Provan-LO.pdf

Photos better, size 5.7 MB: http://mailstar.net/Provan-MID.pdf

Photos best, size 16.7 MB: http://mailstar.net/Provan-HI.pdf

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:22 pm

blastikus wrote:
Aaron Richards wrote:https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/

It is getting bigger by the day and I'm having a field day going through it and seeing denierbud and pals get torn apart.


Interestingly a major predicate of Nazism and Neo-Nazism is refuted in the following article on a denialist site, in this article "German Nationalist Jews During the Weimar and Early Third Reich Eras": http://inconvenienthistory.com/5/3/3215

...but anyway, it should be noted that leading Holocaust revisionists have redacted their position: Christian Lindtner apparently helped organize the 2006 Tehran Holocaust conference. But see his interview with Alexander Jacob is here, rejecting holocaust denial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uEHXkaT80A - this seems to be based on the Eichmann items translated by Jacob here: https://www.blackhousepublishing.com/national-socialism

Also, here are some relevant excerpts from Francis Parker Yockey's Chicago FBI file here:
these two pages: https://archive.org/stream/foia_Yockey_ ... 7/mode/2up
this page (on the left): https://archive.org/stream/foia_Yockey_ ... 3/mode/2up -they establish his relevance as regards Nazi intelligence, and also create difficulties for those desiring to put forth a narrative of complete negationism. Moreover, even Irving himself notes some difficulties as established by the Höfle message in the files of decoded German SS and Police messages: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Hoe ... c_No2.html, this is another document establishing that definite transgressions took place. Also, I have seen this from a secondary source, but apparently the Hitler admirer Charles Augustus Lindbergh also, from personal witnessing of postwar conditions, would qualify his position - he noted that "What the German has done to the Jew in Europe, we have done to the Jap in the Pacific. As Germans defiled themselves by dumping the ashes of human beings into these pits, we have defiled ourselves bulldozing bodies into shallow, unmarked tropical graves. What is barbaric on one side of the Earth is barbaric on the other... It is not the Germans alone, or the Japs, but men of all nations to whom this war has brought shame and degradation." ("The wartime journals of Charles A. Lindbergh", Harcourt, Brace, Jovanovich, 1970, p. 997: http://tinyurl.com/jqbzpv3)

Peter Myers also published articles by Charles D. Provan, a Denier turned Believer. There are 3 versions: the text is the same in each, but the quality of the photos increases with the bigger versions.

Photos ok, size 1.8 MB: http://mailstar.net/Provan-LO.pdf

Photos better, size 5.7 MB: http://mailstar.net/Provan-MID.pdf

Photos best, size 16.7 MB: http://mailstar.net/Provan-HI.pdf


Welcome to the forum.

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:38 pm

As to the IH article, Rigg's book is flawed and actually fairly well known thanks in part to deniers latching onto it but known to scholars because an essay with his conclusions appeared in Petropoulos's Gray Zones book in 2005 and because Berenbaum wrote the preface to Rigg's book itself IIRC.

Rigg's counts of Jews in wartime Germany are far too high because he treats all Mischlinge as Jews to make his rather dubious point. One review put the problem succinctly: "The subjects of Rigg’s study were not Jewish. With but a few exceptions, they were Jewish neither by their own identity, by Jewish religious law, nor Nazi laws. That is, the very existence of the legal category 'Mischling' means that even the Nazis recognized that Jewish ancestry was not always the dominant factor in defining Jewishness. The curiosity of Jews fighting for Nazi Germany, a teaser implied by the book’s title, is therefore misleading. "

Also, that many Jews were proud and ardent German nationalists refutes revisionists, not any predicate for Nazism, many of whom argue that German Jews formed a bloc in opposition German national interests.

OTOH Lindtner's back and forth with Graf is well worth reading and has very sharp arguments against Graf and revisionism.

Welcome.
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- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:21 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Also, that many Jews were proud and ardent German nationalists refutes revisionists, not any predicate for Nazism, many of whom argue that German Jews formed a bloc in opposition German national interests.


Seconded. I'm surprised that Incoherent Hysteria allowed it to be published.


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