I literally love this website.

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Aaron Richards
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I literally love this website.

Postby Aaron Richards » Mon Oct 10, 2016 5:55 am

https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/

It is getting bigger by the day and I'm having a field day going through it and seeing denierbud and pals get torn apart.
"...we had the duty towards our Volk (the German people) to kill this Volk (the Jewish people) that wanted to kill us." - Himmler in his 1943 Posen speech reminding any future holocaust denier how absurd their beliefs really are.
I compile rebuttals to popular holocaust denier canards here: http://imgur.com/a/725A7

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:15 am

I like it as well though I use HC more often.

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby BRoI » Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:34 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:It is getting bigger by the day and I'm having a field day going through it and seeing denierbud and pals get torn apart.


Good for you.

Make sure you share this info on the gassing engines of Treblinka far and wide:


How do we know that the engines used in the Operation Reinhard death camps of Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor were gasoline engines and not diesel engines?

Holocaust deniers claim:
The “exterminationists” [those who believe the Holocaust happen] have changed their story that diesel engines were used in the death camps of Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor, to gasoline engines because they are “desperate” in the face of the deniers’ proof that diesel engines could not have been used to murder Jews.

The facts are:
More recent research in newly-opened archives has shown that gasoline engines, and not diesel engines, were used in Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor


[...]

At Treblinka:
It appears possible that two diesel engines may have been used in Treblinka. Gustav Münzberger, an SS man who worked in the extermination area of the camp, testified after the war:

“When all the chambers were filled with about 3,000 Jews, the heavy wooden doors were fastened with iron bolts. Now I went through the corridor, opened the door to the engine room, and gave a sign to Schmitz or Zänker to start both diesel engines. The Russian T-34 tank engines were started by three Ukrainians and a Jew. They needed a lot of diesel. Schmidt brought the diesel from the garage in the lower camp in cans of 20 liters. The operation lasted twenty minutes . . . Then the Ukrainians opened the doors in the corridors and I went to the west side of the building. There I watched the emptying and cleaning of the chambers. At the same time the chambers were ventilated. All of that lasted about forty minutes.”[4]

[...]

Conclusion
From the testimony of the SS men who installed and used them and a Holocaust survivor and bystander who had access to the engines we may reasonably state the following:
At Sobibor a gasoline engine was used.
At Belzec a gasoline engine was used.
At Treblinka two diesel engines were used.
At least some of the gas vans had gasoline engines.

https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/ds6-engines-used/


Contradicting themselves on the same webpage. That's impressive stuff.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 10, 2016 2:56 pm

BRoI wrote:
Aaron Richards wrote:It is getting bigger by the day and I'm having a field day going through it and seeing denierbud and pals get torn apart.


Good for you.

Make sure you share this info on the gassing engines of Treblinka far and wide:


How do we know that the engines used in the Operation Reinhard death camps of Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor were gasoline engines and not diesel engines?

Holocaust deniers claim:
The “exterminationists” [those who believe the Holocaust happen] have changed their story that diesel engines were used in the death camps of Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor, to gasoline engines because they are “desperate” in the face of the deniers’ proof that diesel engines could not have been used to murder Jews.

The facts are:
More recent research in newly-opened archives has shown that gasoline engines, and not diesel engines, were used in Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor


[...]

At Treblinka:
It appears possible that two diesel engines may have been used in Treblinka. Gustav Münzberger, an SS man who worked in the extermination area of the camp, testified after the war:

“When all the chambers were filled with about 3,000 Jews, the heavy wooden doors were fastened with iron bolts. Now I went through the corridor, opened the door to the engine room, and gave a sign to Schmitz or Zänker to start both diesel engines. The Russian T-34 tank engines were started by three Ukrainians and a Jew. They needed a lot of diesel. Schmidt brought the diesel from the garage in the lower camp in cans of 20 liters. The operation lasted twenty minutes . . . Then the Ukrainians opened the doors in the corridors and I went to the west side of the building. There I watched the emptying and cleaning of the chambers. At the same time the chambers were ventilated. All of that lasted about forty minutes.”[4]

[...]

Conclusion
From the testimony of the SS men who installed and used them and a Holocaust survivor and bystander who had access to the engines we may reasonably state the following:
At Sobibor a gasoline engine was used.
At Belzec a gasoline engine was used.
At Treblinka two diesel engines were used.
At least some of the gas vans had gasoline engines.

https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/ds6-engines-used/


Contradicting themselves on the same webpage. That's impressive stuff.


Not nearly as impressive as claiming the ARC were transit camps.....but not having any evidence of where those Jews were transited to.
It's also a bummer about those mass graves.

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby BRoI » Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:04 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Not nearly as impressive as claiming the ARC were transit camps.....but not having any evidence of where those Jews were transited to.
It's also a bummer about those mass graves.


Which are just 2 of the reasons why the transit camps theory is pretty much dead in the water.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:11 pm

BRoI wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Not nearly as impressive as claiming the ARC were transit camps.....but not having any evidence of where those Jews were transited to.
It's also a bummer about those mass graves.


Which are just 2 of the reasons why the transit camps theory is pretty much dead in the water.


Maybe this is the wrong thread to discuss this but I'm curious.
What do you think the ARC were? Do you go with Cole on this? Or do think they were something else?

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby BRoI » Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:23 pm

I'm convinced by the Nazis' own documents that there must have been an extermination programme operating at the AR camps. So, I can pretty much accept there was something similar happening at Chelmno, even if it's not a place I've yet been to or know that much about. There's certainly a lot of unanswered questions for which we'll probably never get satisfactory answers, but there's really nothing to support the transit camps theory; aside from Karski of course.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:59 pm

BRoI wrote:I'm convinced by the Nazis' own documents that there must have been an extermination programme operating at the AR camps. So, I can pretty much accept there was something similar happening at Chelmno, even if it's not a place I've yet been to or know that much about. There's certainly a lot of unanswered questions for which we'll probably never get satisfactory answers, but there's really nothing to support the transit camps theory; aside from Karski of course.


A very good book on Chelmno is Patrick Montague's Chelmno and the Holocaust.

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 10, 2016 4:52 pm

And yet the legend of the transit camps persists among deniers ...
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 10, 2016 5:00 pm

BRoI wrote:I'm convinced by the Nazis' own documents that there must have been an extermination programme operating at the AR camps. So, I can pretty much accept there was something similar happening at Chelmno, even if it's not a place I've yet been to or know that much about. There's certainly a lot of unanswered questions for which we'll probably never get satisfactory answers, but there's really nothing to support the transit camps theory; aside from Karski of course.


OK.
So, what do you have issues with?
Is it Auschwitz gas chambers, the Einsatzgruppen, the IMT, witness statements? The controversy over how many nuts Hitler had?
I've read a lot of what you've written, on RODOH, FG's blog, HC. You seem to focus in a lot on witness statements.

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 10, 2016 5:23 pm

Hitler's nutsack would be more interesting than a side issue that apparently doesn't matter.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 10, 2016 5:45 pm

Anyone else get a dead link on the HDOT diesel page? I'm in a coffee shop and have bad Internet so maybe it's just me?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Denying-History » Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:21 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Anyone else get a dead link on the HDOT diesel page? I'm in a coffee shop and have bad Internet so maybe it's just me?


Any old link prior to the up date is a dead link to an extent. It should take you to an error page.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:57 pm

So the link is to the old site?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:38 pm

Aaron, I know for a fact people have been in touch with Emory about the diesel page and that the content errors are being dealt with. best, SM
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Denying-History » Mon Oct 10, 2016 8:17 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:So the link is to the old site?

From a guess. Maybe. I haven't really checked I just noticed that some of the "revisionist" on youtube has mentioned my links to the site in the past were broken... (I really only use it for the wood essay)
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 10, 2016 9:22 pm

BRoI wrote:I'm convinced by the Nazis' own documents that there must have been an extermination programme operating at the AR camps.


You, the ultimate denier? :befuddled:

So, I can pretty much accept there was something similar happening at Chelmno, even if it's not a place I've yet been to or know that much about.


Read Montauge's book, it's the definitive treatment of Chelmno.

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:52 pm

BRoI wrote:I'm convinced by the Nazis' own documents that there must have been an extermination programme operating at the AR camps.
Which Nazi documents convince you of this?

So, I can pretty much accept there was something similar happening at Chelmno, even if it's not a place I've yet been to or know that much about.
Would you also accept that there was something similar happening at Auschwitz?

There's certainly a lot of unanswered questions for which we'll probably never get satisfactory answers, but there's really nothing to support the transit camps theory; aside from Karski of course.
And Himmler referring to Sobibor as a transit camp. Even though we all know that's a euphemism for a death camp, he did use that word.
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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:08 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
BRoI wrote:I'm convinced by the Nazis' own documents that there must have been an extermination programme operating at the AR camps.
Which Nazi documents convince you of this?


The 3/27/42 Diary entry by Goebbles, the regimental diary from OK Ostrow, and the Stroop Report to name just a very few.

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:18 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:And Himmler referring to Sobibor as a transit camp. Even though we all know that's a euphemism for a death camp, he did use that word.

Link and/or quotation? Thank you.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby NathanC » Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:43 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:And Himmler referring to Sobibor as a transit camp. Even though we all know that's a euphemism for a death camp, he did use that word.

Link and/or quotation? Thank you.


There was a well known report wherein Himmler said that the "Transit Camp" at Sobibor would be converted into a concentration camp for the processing of ammunition.

At the same or earlier time, though. An SS man named Fischmann described an arrival at the Sobibor "Work Camp". The context however makes it clear that it was an extermination transport. It also mentions that the "laborers'" luggage was sent in a different direction to Lublin, where some Jews still fit for labor were also taken off the transport. Sobibor couldn't have been both a "labor" and "Transit camp" at the same time, and if it was a labor camp as Fischmann described it, Himmler's "conversion" order would not be necessary. This is why we know both terms were camouflage.

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:53 pm

NathanC wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:And Himmler referring to Sobibor as a transit camp. Even though we all know that's a euphemism for a death camp, he did use that word.

Link and/or quotation? Thank you.


There was a well known report wherein Himmler said that the "Transit Camp" at Sobibor would be converted into a concentration camp for the processing of ammunition.

Duh, brain fade, yes NO-482. Thanks!

NathanC wrote:At the same or earlier time, though. An SS man named Fischmann described an arrival at the Sobibor "Work Camp". The context however makes it clear that it was an extermination transport. It also mentions that the "laborers'" luggage was sent in a different direction to Lublin, where some Jews still fit for labor were also taken off the transport. Sobibor couldn't have been both a "labor" and "Transit camp" at the same time, and if it was a labor camp as Fischmann described it, Himmler's "conversion" order would not be necessary. This is why we know both terms were camouflage.

Time for me to look back through Schelvis etc.!
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby BRoI » Tue Oct 11, 2016 2:17 am

Jeff wrote:So, what do you have issues with?
Is it Auschwitz gas chambers, the Einsatzgruppen, the IMT, witness statements? The controversy over how many nuts Hitler had?
I've read a lot of what you've written, on RODOH, FG's blog, HC. You seem to focus in a lot on witness statements.

I do like a patently dishonest witness statement, especially when some historians will happily twist the the laws of physics to accommodate it and the others just refuse to acknowledge that witness ever existed. None of them like calling a spade a spade.

I answer some of you other points in my following response to MQ, which, sorry, I saw before yours.


Mary wrote:Which Nazi documents convince you of this?

Viktor Brack's letter 23 June 1942 to Himmler was a significant one [NO 205], advising that some of his T4 staff had been reassigned to Globocnik for his special task, and then suggesting that they sterilise several million Jews by means of X-ray. The British intercepted a message soon after which states X-ray experiments were to begin at Auschwitz [plus there's a bundle of testimony on that and the Auschwitz medical register that recorded the removal of testicles and ovaries after the X-ray experiments—which were eventually deemed a failure and halted].

Then there's Goebbels' Diary, 27 March 1942, mentioning that Globocnik would be running the eastward evacuation.

Then there's all the paperwork that proves a huge percentage of the the AR staff were veterans of the euthanasia programme. Very few people deny the T4 programme in its entirety, usually it's just the gas chambers. If for argument's sake they're right about "no GCs", why would the AR camps take so many of the staff from these institutions to work in transit camps?

Then there's a document I discovered; a decoded message sent from the Japanese ambassador following his meeting with Paul Karl Schmidt, the press spokesman of the German Foreign Ministry on May 19, 1944. "The question of the Jews, of course, called for treatment on a different footing they were the nations' internal parasites and as such she [Germany] would relentlessly eliminate them."


Would you also accept that there was something similar happening at Auschwitz?

Selective killings clearly went at all KL under the Action 14f13 and the subsequent similar programmes in which sick or unproductive prisoners were taken to former T4 institutes to be injected or "gassed". As for the generally accepted view of 5 cremas & 2 bunkers all with one or more GCs in which c.850K Jews were gassed, I not sure that's entirely true. But there's a considerable number of aerial photos that show the same 4 objects on the roofs of LK1 of both K2&3. John Ball etc. say they're drawn on by the CIA, but that's clearly BS as neither John Ball nor CIA knew of the copies and many additional photos in British archives that weren't cited by anyone until they were revealed a few years ago when the NCAP website went live. Then there's the huge number of prisoners who worked in the cremas Hans at HC documented, and the testimony of already-sentenced-to-death-for-stuff-at-Dachau Otto Moll in his joint interrogation with Hoess.

I've got over 100,000 photos that I took of files relating to the Holocaust at the British National Archives. I'll probably never get around to looking at them all, but I've look thru a lot of them. The oft heard claims that the British didn't know or believe that Jews were being killed in Auschwitz at other places is complete wrong. Sure, there's some famous early examples of them scoffing at electrocutions at Belzec and decompression chambers at Treblinka, but as the war progressed they were totally convinced that there was an extermination programme happening at camps in Poland. And of course they knew of regular and large scale shootings of Jews by the militarised police in the USSR through intercepted and decoded messages—until Churchill goofed in Aug 1941 and let the Germans know we were listening.


And Himmler referring to Sobibor as a transit camp. Even though we all know that's a euphemism for a death camp, he did use that word

There's another example of Sobibor being called a tranist camp, aside from those 3 letters between Himmler's office and Pohl, this intercept and decoded message: Oct 27, 1943, from HSSPF Central Russia
Image
https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=68733#p68733

They did use codes though. I mean; I was shocked when RM proved recently-ish that Fr. Desbois's seemingly crazy claim that the locations of mass graves were hidden in messages disguised as weather reports turned out to be true.
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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 11, 2016 2:32 am

Leaving aside resettlement/transit, open-air killings in occupied USSR - elaborating on your point on mass graves?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 2:58 am

despite my thorough, fundamental, and very much current dislike of your basic character, I cannot help but be, grudgingly, surprised at your totally unforeseen ability to (slightly) compromise your ideologically rooted misconceptions when confronted by facts.

That is unless you're {!#%@} with us. Which would not surprise me in the slightest I might add.
Last edited by Jeff_36 on Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:11 am

I.....honestly don't know what to say.......

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:17 am

Jeff_36 wrote:despite my thorough, fundamental, and very much current dislike of your basic character, I cannot help but be, grudgingly, surprised at your totally unforeseen ability to (slightly) compromise your ideologically rooted misconceptions when confronted by facts.

That is unless you're {!#%@} with us. Which would not surprise me in the slightest I might add.

Sharing your sentiment - including most of the last (if not those exact words, you still took the meaning right outta my thoughts, lol). It could very well be emBRoIdery, but considering that (or if) the new "R" in "Revisionism" is Rizoli, I'd also do everything in my power to distance myself from it. :lol:

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Aaron Richards » Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:13 am

As long as the Simon Toncman gif remains on the main page of BRoI's blog, he isnt fooling anyone.
"...we had the duty towards our Volk (the German people) to kill this Volk (the Jewish people) that wanted to kill us." - Himmler in his 1943 Posen speech reminding any future holocaust denier how absurd their beliefs really are.
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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:23 am

Aaron, I'll let you know, if I find out, when Emory has updated the HDOT page with content errors concerning diesel.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby BRoI » Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:17 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Leaving aside resettlement/transit, open-air killings in occupied USSR - elaborating on your point on mass graves?


I was referring to this:

The Prüfer-Sander mantra is followed by what can be considered Mattogno’s crowning achievement (at least in his "devastating" attack on Father Patrick Desbois) regarding Operation 1005, as he delights his audience by stomping his feet as follows:
Desbois, incredibly, adds:
Aktion 1005 was kept secret, the SS communicated with Berlin in code: the number of clouds indicated that of the re-opened graves, and the quantity of rain indicated the number of bodies that had been burned (p. 201).

Where did Desbois ever get this poppycock? From some senile "eyewitness"? What rubbish!

Mattogno is familiar with the work of a German researcher by the name of Jens Hoffmann, in whose book about Aktion 1005 the use of meteorological code words is mentioned on several occasions[12]. Even if he were not, a little googling would have been sufficient to overcome his ignorance. A search on http://www.google.de with the terms "Aktion 1005" and "Wolken" (German for clouds) turns up as first result a link to an article in Germany’s main weekly magazine[13] discussing trials against several former members of the SS or police who had been involved in Aktion 1005 and been charged with the murder of forced laborers involved in the cremation of the corpses: Max Krahner, Otto Goldapp, Otto Drews, Hans Sohns, Fritz Zietlow, Walter Ernst Helfsgott, Fritz Kirstein. Regarding Sohns, the article contains the following information:
Mit Pickeln und Schaufeln, aber auch mit Baggern ließ Sohns die Massengräber öffnen. ermittelte die Staatsanwaltschaft. Er selber kontrollierte gelegentlich den Fortgang der Arbeit an Ort und Stelle, er selber gab Befehl, die herbeigezwungenen Totengräber durch Genickschuß zu töten. Nur geschossen hat er selber nicht: jemals seine Versetzung oder Abberufung beantragt auch nicht.
Er war immer bei der Sache, meldete jeweils Vollzug unter Stichwort "Wolkenhöhe" aus den Niederungen der Menschenvernichtung.
Sohns had the mass graves opened with pickaxes and shovels, but also with excavators, according to the public prosecutor’s office’s investigations. He himself occasionally controlled the progress of the work on site, and he himself gave the order to kill the forced grave diggers by shots in the neck. He only didn’t shoot himself; he also never requested a transfer or relief from his post.
He always had things under control, and on each occasion reported accomplishment under the keyword "cloud height" from the hollows of human extermination.

(Emphases added.)

The trial against Sohns et al was held before the Stuttgart Court of Assizes (Landgericht Stuttgart) and ended with the court’s verdict on 13.03.1969, which is included as Verfahren Lfd.Nr.701 in the University of Amsterdam’s Justiz und NS-Verbrechen collection[14] and can be ordered from there. Regarding the use of the code word "Wolkenhöhe" ("cloud height"), the judgment contains the following findings:
Auf der gemeinsamen Grundsatzbesprechung teilte Blobel ferner mit, dass der Abteilung IV des RSHA täglich über die Zahl der beseitigten Leichen berichtet werden müsse. Er fragte die Anwesenden, ob jemand einen vernünftigen Vorschlag zur praktischen Handhabung der Berichtspflicht machen könne. Hierauf schlug Soh. vor, die täglichen Leistungsberichte als "Wettermeldung" zu tarnen. Als "Wolkenhöhe" verschlüsselt konnte die Leichenzahl über Funk oder von einer KdS-Dienststelle aus fernschriftlich unauffällig an den BdS gemeldet werden, der die bei ihm einlaufenden Berichte täglich an das RSHA weiterzuleiten hatte. In der Praxis oblag es später den Teilkommandoführem, also auch dem Angeklagten Zie., die täglichen "Wettermeldungen" abzugeben. Ob Soh. in der Praxis auch in das von ihm inspirierte Berichtswesen eingeschaltet war, ist ungeklärt. […]
Der Angeklagte hat ferner eingeräumt, schon vor Aufnahme der eigentlichen Arbeiten bei der gemeinsamen Grundsatzbesprechung auf entsprechende Frage Blobels vorgeschlagen zu haben, dass - wie das später dann in der Praxis tatsächlich weitgehend durchgeführt wurde - die vom RSHA geforderten täglichen Leistungsberichte als "Wettermeldung" verschlüsselt und die Zahl der verbrannten Leichen mit einer als "Wolkenhöhe" getarnten Zahl durchgegeben werden sollten.

At the joint principle meeting Blobel furthermore informed that Section IV of the RSHA had to be informed about the number of removed corpses on a daily basis. He asked those present if anyone could make a reasonable suggestion about the practical handling of this reporting duty. Thereupon Soh. suggested to mask the daily performance reports as "weather report". Coded as "cloud height", the number of corpses could inconspicuously be reported by radio or by a service of the Commander of Security Police and Security Service (Kommandeur der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD - KdS) per telex to the Head of the Security Police and Security Service (Befehlshaber der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD - BdS), who had to transmit the messages received to the RSHA on a daily basis. In practice the commanders of partial detachments, including the defendant Zie., later had the task of issuing the daily "weather reports". Whether Soh. was also involved in the practice of reporting he had inspired has not been clarified. […]
The defendant furthermore admitted that already before the works proper started he had at the joint principle meeting suggested, in response to a corresponding question by Blobel, that – as was later actually done in practice to a large extent – the daily performance reports required by the RSHA should be coded as "weather reports" and the number of burned corpses should be reported by a number masked as "cloud height".

So instead of the account of "some senile "eyewitness"" derisively suggested by Mattogno we have the deposition of a key participant in Operation 1005 at a trial before a West German court, held according to the defendant-friendly procedural rules of a democratic state, in which defendants were assisted by legal counsel and entitled to deny the charges brought against them and challenge the related evidence as they saw fit.

But it gets even better, for one of the documents quoted by Sergey[15] confirms Sohns’ deposition whereby meteorological code words were used to report the progress of Operation 1005, namely the sixth one[16]:

Einsatz der SK 1005 A und B, GrS-Auftrag RFSS an SS-Staf. Blobel im Raum BdS-Schwarzes Meer nicht möglich. Erfaßte Niederschlagsgebiete nur noch im Raum KdS-Krim. Einsatz dort bei Front- und Bandenlage zZt. untunlich. Transportraum für Gesamtkommando nicht vorhanden. Gerüchteweise verlautet, daß Räumung Krim bevorsteht. Schlage Auflösung beider Kommandos bzw. Einsatz in anderem Raume vor.
Source: excerpt from a secret 28.03.1944 radiogram from SS-Stubaf. Friedrich Hegenscheidt (KdS Schwarzes Meer) to Chef der Sipo und des SD and Einsatzgruppe C Lemberg, Abw. Stab; Barch, B 162/204 ARZ 419/62, Band 1, Bl. 146 as cited in ibid., S. 127. (Note that "Niederschläge" was a code word for buried bodies of the Nazi victims, cf. B 162/3537, Bl. 115.)


(Emphases added.)

"Niederschlag" translates as "rainfall", "Niederschlagsgebiete" translates as "rainfall areas", and the highlighted part of Sergey’s quote translates as "Recorded rainfall areas left only in the area of Commander of Security Police and Security Service Crimea", which in the context of Operation 1005 meant that only in this area there remained mass graves to removed. The report goes on to state that the operation could not be carried out at the time due to the situation at the front and partisan activity, that there were rumors whereby the Crimea was about to be evacuated, and that the dissolution of both detachments (SK 1005 A and B) or their use elsewhere was thus suggested.

The above-mentioned insider witness and documentary evidence makes Mattogno’s derisive remark about the source of Desbois’ reference to the coding of Operation 1005 reports look like the impertinent blather of a charlatan incapable or unwilling to do even the most basic research in the field of his "scholarly" activity, whereas Desbois comes across as someone who did his homework of consulting the available sources of evidence or at least the judgments and/or scholarly literature wherein such sources are mentioned.

But then, who in his right mind still believes that Mattogno’s "scholarship" amounts to anything other than poppycock?
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.uk/2016/07/mattogno-and-father-patrick-desbois-1.html

SR post this since:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/from-vocabulary-of-aktion-1005_11.html
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
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Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:23 pm

Thanks, right, I'd read the HC blog items - what I was wondering was whether your reference to this point means that you accept a large death toll of Jews murdered, mostly shot, in the occupied USSR - not picky about a precise number but over 1 million to 1.5 million.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby BRoI » Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:27 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:As long as the Simon Toncman gif remains on the main page of BRoI's blog, he isnt fooling anyone.

Why don't you be the first to provide some actual evidence that the Signal Corps Photo Lab in the Pentagon didn't doctor that photo by locating and publishing an uncropped print from the negative.
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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby BRoI » Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:40 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Thanks, right, I'd read the HC blog items - what I was wondering was whether your reference to this point means that you accept a large death toll of Jews murdered, mostly shot, in the occupied USSR - not picky about a precise number but over 1 million to 1.5 million.

Sure, although I don't think many revisionists asides from the deny everything brigade contests the authenticity of the nazis' own documents on shootings in the east. They might argue, as many of the defendants at the EG trial did, that some of the figures in the EG Reports were considerably exaggerated, but I don't believe any serious revisionist researcher has claimed that the reports or other docs mentioning the shootings are "fake".
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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Denying-History » Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:50 pm

BRoI wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Thanks, right, I'd read the HC blog items - what I was wondering was whether your reference to this point means that you accept a large death toll of Jews murdered, mostly shot, in the occupied USSR - not picky about a precise number but over 1 million to 1.5 million.

Sure, although I don't think many revisionists asides from the deny everything brigade contests the authenticity of the nazis' own documents on shootings in the east. They might argue, as many of the defendants at the EG trial did, that some of the figures in the EG Reports were considerably exaggerated, but I don't believe any serious revisionist researcher has claimed that the reports or other docs mentioning the shootings are "fake".


Do you think they were partisans? (Sorry this sparked a question. I see you have gotten quite a few.)
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:36 pm

BRoI wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Thanks, right, I'd read the HC blog items - what I was wondering was whether your reference to this point means that you accept a large death toll of Jews murdered, mostly shot, in the occupied USSR - not picky about a precise number but over 1 million to 1.5 million.

Sure, although I don't think many revisionists asides from the deny everything brigade contests the authenticity of the nazis' own documents on shootings in the east. They might argue, as many of the defendants at the EG trial did, that some of the figures in the EG Reports were considerably exaggerated, but I don't believe any serious revisionist researcher has claimed that the reports or other docs mentioning the shootings are "fake".

Well welcome to this forum - by this definition the revisionists posting here are unserious.

Where do so-called serious revisionist researchers lay out their thinking about the mass killings in the occupied USSR? On what points do they differ with say Nick Terry or other historians in the case they put forward (e.g., anti-partisan argument vs making territory Jew free)? I'm thinking of the polemics between Graf and Christian Lindtner on this question, for example???

If commanders of units in the east felt the need to give Berlin exaggerated numbers, that implies that Berlin wanted to see a very high Jewish death toll in the Soviet Union.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby BRoI » Tue Oct 11, 2016 2:24 pm

Denying-History wrote:Do you think they were partisans?

Well, it all depends on individual reports. If they says X amount of Jews were shot for partisan activities, then I've no automatic reason to reject that or think they lied about them being partisans. But if there's no mention of the Jews being or supporting partisans, then nor would I assume they were.

Some of the messages intercepted early in OB list partisans and Jews separately, so I see no reason to suspect these Jews were shot for partisan activities:
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=71383#p71383


SM wrote:Well welcome to this forum - by this definition the revisionists posting here are unserious.

Where do so-called serious revisionist researchers lay out their thinking about the mass killings in the occupied USSR? On what points do they differ with say Nick Terry or other historians in the case they put forward (e.g., anti-partisan argument vs making territory Jew free)? I'm thinking of Graf vs Christian Lindtner on this question, for example???

Thanks.

I was referring to numerous one-liners in MGK's response to HC where CM reiterates [paraphrased:] *we don't contest large scale shootings in the east*, and:
It is well-known that the Germans left undestroyed large quantities of documents relating to the shootings of Jews, particularly on the Eastern Front, documents written in blunt and open language. [p.84]

And clarifies:
we do not have any difficulty in admitting the reality of mass shootings and since – more importantly – such shootings do not themselves prove the existence of an order or a systematic plan to exterminate the Jews. [p.176]

Mattogno's study on the EG isn't expect until next year so we'll have to wait to see what he really thinks the purpose of the shootings were, but the bookies aren't taking bets that it'll be "security reasons". As for other revisionist writings on the shootings on the east; David Cole wrote last year about how Faurisson was shown not to know anything about them during the first Zuendel trial. I did read the Graf vs. Lindtner exchanges several years ago but presently can't recall anything too memorable from them. Graf has long been outspoken on Babi Yar being a fraud—he even repeats that in the 2013 response to HC—and suggested it might call the authenticity of the EG reports into question [I think NT pointed out Graf was confusing the EG reports and an earlier message that mentions the 33,771 Jews shot at Babi Yar]. Asides from these few, I don't really know what the German revisionists of the 70s etc. made of them.
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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 11, 2016 2:32 pm

I am on an iPhone today so I can't deal with posting a link to what Graf had to say about this with Lindtner. I will post it later in the day. It seems that there's no sustained piece on this topic from revisionists then?

I take Mattogno's comments to be grudging and a bit opaque, for example, the acknowledgement of some mass shootings coupled with denial of a systematic quality to them adds up to silence on questions like how many, were there systematic attempts to render the territory Jew free, were the operations "excesses" or aimed for by the authorities and so on.

Revisionists in this forum minimize or deny all together mass killings aimed against the Jews of the USSR; they argue that German documents related to the mass killings were forged by the Soviets; they argue that there is no evidence for large numbers of mass graves; and some routinely cite Mattogno to support their positions
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby BRoI » Tue Oct 11, 2016 2:38 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:It seems that there's no sustained piece on this topic from revisionist then?

Not to my knowledge.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Hans » Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:12 pm

I'm certainly looking forward to Mattogno to explain this. Good luck, he will need it.

Death toll of Einsatzgruppe B:
Image

Breakdown of Einsatzgruppe B victims for 1941:

Image
Last edited by Hans on Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I literally love this website.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:18 pm

Thanks Hans nice to see you among us lowlifes! That of course gets at some of my observations about Mattogno above and it matches fairly well with Jäger report, which deniers here describe as a forgery. Jäger report % of Jewish victims in operations of EK3 is actually in the high 90s.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927


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