Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:10 pm

BRoI wrote:I've also proven that Jean-Louis Panné cites no source for his claims about Karski's "1993" visits to Izbica and Belzec and Karski's alleged "formally identification" of Izbica.


So do you propose he pulled it out of thin air? The video of Karski's visit to Izbica published earlier in the thread shows him clearly discussing the location and his experiences in it in a way consistent with his claiming that he had in fact visited Izbica. I will obtain a translation, hopefully at some point later this week.


Okay, if that's how *you read* Waldemar Piasecki's chapter, which is in Polish, and in a book you've never seen!


No, but you have allegedly seen it lol, and the quotation you provided clearly was in reference to his experiences at the time, not in reference to Karski's state of mind in 1999.

Care to explain [without your usual insults about child abuse] why didn't Karski change Belzec to Izbica, considering that Karski wrote in September 1999 that this edition includes his own "additions and corrections"
[/quote]

Its quite irrelevant because he had already stated multiple times by that point that he had visited Izbica. The Wood & Jankowski book (which has Karki visiting Izbica) was complied as a result of extensive interviews with Karski, in the authors own words. I highly doubt that Panne would cite the 1995 interview if it did not show what he said it showed, and the video posted earlier in the thread is fairly conclusive even before translation.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:41 pm

I don't put any stock in electrocution, steaming, drowning in a dark liquid, blah blah blah.

Any discrepancy in execution methods was understandable. The really important thing was that we have Jews deported to these camps and no Jews leaving them (except, perhaps, a few isolated cases). We also have the subsequent investigations into these camps by the Poles after the war and what they found.

So, while I find what we are talking about very interesting whether or not Karski was there is irrelevant.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:34 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
BRoI wrote:I've also proven that Jean-Louis Panné cites no source for his claims about Karski's "1993" visits to Izbica and Belzec and Karski's alleged "formally identification" of Izbica.

So do you propose he pulled it out of thin air? The video of Karski's visit to Izbica published earlier in the thread shows him clearly discussing the location and his experiences in it in a way consistent with his claiming that he had in fact visited Izbica. I will obtain a translation, hopefully at some point later this week.

That video was found and posted on this thread by myself. I had to post it TWICE [1st - 2nd] before its potential significance finally dawned on you!

I see you also haven't noticed that SM gave us the gist of what his Polish-speaking friend said Karski was saying in that video.


Okay, if that's how *you read* Waldemar Piasecki's chapter, which is in Polish, and in a book you've never seen!

No, but you have allegedly seen it lol,

Is that an "alleged" photo of pages 256-7 I posted, in your *expert* opinion :roll:


and the quotation you provided clearly was in reference to his experiences at the time, not in reference to Karski's state of mind in 1999.

Piasecki is here discussing the amendments that were made to this edition from Karski's original text. It is from the same paragraph as the 8-word-quote features that the only mentions of Izbica are found in the entire book. If Piasecki was *only* referring to Karski's "experiences at the time" and Karsku had since had a changed his mind [according to you], why didn't Piasecki mention it either? Karski states in his forward that it was Piasecki who translated his original 1944 text and developed it based on Karski's own amendments and corrections.

Image

Its quite irrelevant because he had already stated multiple times by that point that he had visited Izbica. The Wood & Jankowski book (which has Karki visiting Izbica) was complied as a result of extensive interviews with Karski, in the authors own words. I highly doubt that Panne would cite the 1995 interview if it did not show what he said it showed, and the video posted earlier in the thread is fairly conclusive even before translation.

It's *so* irrelevant that Rémy Besson lied/erred/jeffed and claimed in the 1999 book Karski *had* changed Izbica for Belzec! That probably doesn't bother Lesser Jeff, even though he plagiarised Besson's sources earlier in the thread.

This is the the polar opposite of "quite irrelevant". This book is very best source available on where Karski was claiming to have visited during his final years.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:42 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I don't put any stock in electrocution, steaming, drowning in a dark liquid, blah blah blah.

Any discrepancy in execution methods was understandable. The really important thing was that we have Jews deported to these camps and no Jews leaving them (except, perhaps, a few isolated cases). We also have the subsequent investigations into these camps by the Poles after the war and what they found.

So, while I find what we are talking about very interesting whether or not Karski was there is irrelevant.

Yeah, with so many reports of Polish government officials, departments or organizations, newspapers, and informants mentioning gassing, and some also guessing about electricity or air or just saying the method of death was unknown, this is all so meh.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Balsamo » Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:20 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I don't put any stock in electrocution, steaming, drowning in a dark liquid, blah blah blah.

Any discrepancy in execution methods was understandable. The really important thing was that we have Jews deported to these camps and no Jews leaving them (except, perhaps, a few isolated cases). We also have the subsequent investigations into these camps by the Poles after the war and what they found.

So, while I find what we are talking about very interesting whether or not Karski was there is irrelevant.

Yeah, with so many reports of Polish government officials, departments or organizations, newspapers, and informants mentioning gassing, and some also guessing about electricity or air or just saying the method of death was unknown, this is all so meh.


Agree,

You are a man of few words in this thread... :lol:

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:27 pm

LOL (I wrote a post in this that was a mile long and killed it!)
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:28 pm

I have had a good look at the relevant chapter of the 1999 edition. The exact wording of the relevant sentence, as our little guest has noted, was "Karski był przekonany, że przywieziono go do Bełżec". But here's the thing - the term "Byl Przekonanay is very clearly a function of the past tense in Polish, and must be seen as an indication of previously held beliefs by Karski. We must recall that Karski was still alive in 1999, and were Piasecki referring to an opinion by Karski that was contemporary to his writing, he would have used the term "jest przekonany" instead. Our little guest would have a point if the edition was published in 2001, but alas, it is the Daft Rabbit we are talking about and it is his destiny to have his errors, often egregious, pointed out by us more educated folks.

For this post I shunned Google Translate and looked instead for a Polish-English Dictionary contemporary to publishing of the 1999 edition of Karski's book. The closest I could find was once by Iwo Pognowski published in 1993.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Balsamo » Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:05 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:I have had a good look at the relevant chapter of the 1999 edition. The exact wording of the relevant sentence, as our little guest has noted, was "Karski był przekonany, że przywieziono go do Bełżec". But here's the thing - the term "Byl Przekonanay is very clearly a function of the past tense in Polish, and must be seen as an indication of previously held beliefs by Karski. We must recall that Karski was still alive in 1999, and were Piasecki referring to an opinion by Karski that was contemporary to his writing, he would have used the term "jest przekonany" instead. Our little guest would have a point if the edition was published in 2001, but alas, it is the Daft Rabbit we are talking about and it is his destiny to have his errors, often egregious, pointed out by us more educated folks.

For this post I shunned Google Translate and looked instead for a Polish-English Dictionary contemporary to publishing of the 1999 edition of Karski's book. The closest I could find was once by Iwo Pognowski published in 1993.



Yes, but how would it really matter if he "realized" his mistake in 1990 or 1999? Normally, it goes the other way round, older people getting confused about their most ancient memories. Here we have the opposite, an old men realizing he was wrong when he was younger...well up to his meeting with Lanzamnn...that is 1985...
Where are we supposed to go with it anyway?

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:44 am

Balsamo wrote:Where are we supposed to go with it anyway?


Karski was dishonest. Had he actually been to Belzec he would have not changed his story at all, he would have doubled down on it! The fact that he did the opposite casts doubt on the original telling.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:07 am

Jeff_36 wrote:I have had a good look at the relevant chapter of the 1999 edition.

Would you please quote the first and last sentences from the relevant chapter.

I'm sure a learned man such as yourself wouldn't have gone to the trouble of tracking down this book without having made some photocopies or taken a few photos of the chapter for future reference.

Jeff_36 wrote:The exact wording of the relevant sentence, as our little guest has noted, was "Karski był przekonany, że przywieziono go do Bełżec". But here's the thing - the term "Byl Przekonanay is very clearly a function of the past tense in Polish, and must be seen as an indication of previously held beliefs by Karski. We must recall that Karski was still alive in 1999, and were Piasecki referring to an opinion by Karski that was contemporary to his writing, he would have used the term "jest przekonany" instead. Our little guest would have a point if the edition was published in 2001, but alas, it is the Daft Rabbit we are talking about and it is his destiny to have his errors, often egregious, pointed out by us more educated folks.

For this post I shunned Google Translate and looked instead for a Polish-English Dictionary contemporary to publishing of the 1999 edition of Karski's book. The closest I could find was once by Iwo Pognowski published in 1993.

Iwo Pognowski! A great friend of Jan Karski so I've heard [read on the internet].

Why do you think Piasecki didn't substitute Belzec for Izbica in Chapter 30 if he was aware that Karski then believed that was the place he had visited in 1942?
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:06 pm

dum dum dum dum dum

*looks at watch*
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:42 am

Iwo Pognowski! A great friend of Jan Karski so I've heard [read on the internet].

A pathetic attempt at misdirection :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .

I can see you have nothing little man. And it amuses me.

Why do you think Piasecki didn't substitute Belzec for Izbica in Chapter 30 if he was aware that Karski then believed that was the place he had visited in 1942?


Irrelevant - his description of Karski's sentiment was in past tense when the man was still alive. That is more than enough for me and for most of us more educated members. The fact that he changed his story (and I have proven this irrefutably) flies in the face of any "visit" to Belzec, the conjuring of which has been definitively established as being less than honest.

You remind me of those sad, delusional Japs they were finding in the Philippine jungle into the sixties and seventies.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:29 am

BRoI wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:I have had a good look at the relevant chapter of the 1999 edition.

Would you please quote the first and last sentences from the relevant chapter.

I'm sure a learned man such as yourself wouldn't have gone to the trouble of tracking down this book without having made some photocopies or taken a few photos of the chapter for future reference.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:24 pm

awwwwwwww, he's repeating himself! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:06 am

Jeff_36 wrote:I have had a good look at the relevant chapter of the 1999 edition.


You're unable to post the first and last sentences of the chapter because all you've seen of the book is the photos and quotes I posted earlier on the thread.

You lied. Everyone can see that Jeff, everyone.
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:04 am

BRoI wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:I have had a good look at the relevant chapter of the 1999 edition.


You're unable to post the first and last sentences of the chapter because all you've seen of the book is the photos and quotes I posted earlier on the thread.

You lied. Everyone can see that Jeff, everyone.


And you have no proof except your own {!#%@} delusions. Get over yourself. You sound so pathetic right now, I almost feel guilty :neener:

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:24 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:I have had a good look at the relevant chapter of the 1999 edition.

As it's been established that you lied to this forum about having consulted a copy of Jan Karski et al., Tajne Państwo [Warsaw: Twój Styl, 1999], let's now see if there's any truth to your other claim:

Jeff_36 wrote:For this post I shunned Google Translate and looked instead for a Polish-English Dictionary contemporary to publishing of the 1999 edition of Karski's book. The closest I could find was once by Iwo Pognowski published in 1993.

Was it the 'Practical' [c.700 pages] or 'Concise' [c.240 pages] edition you consulted?

Would you please quote the entry for "był".
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:23 pm

What's lying Jeff up to, is he trying his damndest to obtain a book and a dictionary he claimed to have consulted a week ago?

I hope he ends up paying for a Polish book he'll never be able to read :lol: and it won't affect the fact that he lied about seeing it before 21 October 2016.
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:05 am

well {!#%@} me I've been having work and family issues to sort out. Tell ya what {!#%@}, I'll go back to the library and snap a photo or two, post it here.

(It was the Practical edition btw)

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:20 pm

LJ wrote:well {!#%@} me I've been having work and family issues to sort out.

Hog got loose from the barn again!


Tell ya what {!#%@}, I'll go back to the library and snap a photo or two, post it here.

So you didn't take any photos! Only a dickbutt doesn't take photos/scans/photocopies of books/docs that take considerable efforts to consult! New to research are you, lying Jeff?

Sure, drive your pick-up to a library you've never visited before to get some photos of a book you've never seen; it won't change the fact that you lied about consulting this book weeks ago.

Here; this'll help you find a library which has a copy:
http://www.worldcat.org/title/tajne-panstwo-opowiesc-o-polskim-podziemiu/oclc/214455508


(It was the Practical edition btw)

I knew you were going to claim that due to "był" not featuring in the "Concise" edition; part of which is viewable on Amazon's "Freeview", but you know this already:

Image
Image

Be sure to also post a photo of the "był" entry from the Practical edition, lying Jeff.
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:50 pm

Be sure to also post a photo of the "był" entry from the Practical edition, lying Jeff.


{!#%@} you my life doesn't revolve around this. I will do so within the next few days. I have to re-order the dammed thing and the public library gophers over here do take their time.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:52 pm

So you didn't take any photos! Only a dickbutt doesn't take photos/scans/photocopies of books/docs that take considerable efforts to consult! New to research are you, lying Jeff?


Only a vain, narcissistic, delusional {!#%@} like yourself does that actually. It comes, IMO, from a deep-rooted felling of inadequacy that has its origins in poor education and petty resentment at the more erudite.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:06 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
So you didn't take any photos! Only a dickbutt doesn't take photos/scans/photocopies of books/docs that take considerable efforts to consult! New to research are you, lying Jeff?


Only a vain, narcissistic, delusional {!#%@} like yourself does that actually. It comes, IMO, from a deep-rooted felling of inadequacy that has its origins in poor education and petty resentment at the more erudite.


lol, you've never been to an actual archive or academic library then!

You'll see dozens upon dozens of readers taking photos of docs/books if you ever do go to one.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/docu ... policy.pdf
https://www.bl.uk/reshelp/inrrooms/stp/ ... ancras.pdf

As always, I'll let your insults go. It is all you have, lying Jeff. :D
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:35 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
So you didn't take any photos! Only a dickbutt doesn't take photos/scans/photocopies of books/docs that take considerable efforts to consult! New to research are you, lying Jeff?


Only a vain, narcissistic, delusional {!#%@} like yourself does that actually. It comes, IMO, from a deep-rooted felling of inadequacy that has its origins in poor education and petty resentment at the more erudite.


Image
http://www.enginehistory.org/References/UKNA/NatArchKew.shtml

See all those camera stands on the tables in the right of the photo, lying Jeff? There's actually EIGHTY of them in the room.

I'm the only person who's ever used one according to you. :lol:
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:45 pm

Seeing as you're still lying to everyone by still insisting that you've already seen a copy of Jan Karski et al., Tajne Państwo [Warsaw: Twój Styl, 1999]....

Tell everyone about the items in the back of the book. There are so many they'll surely not have escaped your notice, especially as a number are in English.

Go ahead, tell us about them.
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:30 pm

I thought you'd let it go - as always. :-P
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:50 pm

BRoI wrote:Seeing as you're still lying to everyone by still insisting that you've already seen a copy of Jan Karski et al., Tajne Państwo [Warsaw: Twój Styl, 1999]....

Tell everyone about the items in the back of the book. There are so many they'll surely not have escaped your notice, especially as a number are in English.

Go ahead, tell us about them.


The ones in English, in the edition I purchased, were a credit for the copyright of the translation, and a description of the edition as being put out by "Robert Laffont SA" in Paris, 2010. The first item was "tytul oryginalu: Story of a Secret State: My report to the world". I can quote any sentence you want me to from any part of the book.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:53 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
BRoI wrote:Seeing as you're still lying to everyone by still insisting that you've already seen a copy of Jan Karski et al., Tajne Państwo [Warsaw: Twój Styl, 1999]....

Tell everyone about the items in the back of the book. There are so many they'll surely not have escaped your notice, especially as a number are in English.

Go ahead, tell us about them.


The ones in English, in the edition I purchased, were a credit for the copyright of the translation, and a description of the edition as being put out by "Robert Laffont SA" in Paris, 2010. The first item was "tytul oryginalu: Story of a Secret State: My report to the world". I can quote any sentence you want me to from any part of the book.


It sounds very much like you've brought this 2014 edition:
https://www.amazon.com/Tajne-panstwo-Ja ... %C5%84stwo

Robert Laffont SA [Société Anonyme] is the French publishing house that published the 2010 French translation that I've discussed several times on this thread. So, clearly, it's not a book from 1999 you've brought.

I don't have this 2014 Polish edition and I don't feel like paying £4.37 for the Google Books version when I can so easily check a tangible copy next week [it's easy for me living where I do]. But it appears—from what I can learn from the internet—that Waldemar Piasecki's chapter from the 1999 edition doesn't even appear in the 2014 version, which was translated by a different person and published by a different publisher to the 1999 edition.

Acrimony aside, Jeff, our argument re. Karski boils down to the following:

- I'm yet to be convinced that Karski ever admitted that he'd actually been to Izbica, or anywhere other than Belzec

- You think Karski, in his later years, conceded that he must have been to Izbica

It's slightly more in-depth—as both of us suspect Karski may have invented the story, but that's not relevant to the issue of whether Karski claimed he went to Belzec or Izbica during his final years.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:23 pm

BRoI wrote:Acrimony aside, Jeff, our argument re. Karski boils down to the following:

- I'm yet to be convinced that Karski ever admitted that he'd actually been to Izbica, or anywhere other than Belzec

- You think Karski, in his later years, conceded that he must have been to Izbica

It's slightly more in-depth—as both of us suspect Karski may have invented the story, but that's not relevant to the issue of whether Karski claimed he went to Belzec or Izbica during his final years.


All of this is irrelevant really as all indications show that Karski did not go to Belzec for the reasons stipulated above. He changed his account a number of times, and had no acknowledgment of deja vu in his account that would be expected from someone who had gone to Belzec in 1940.

For now, I choose to trust the video posted earlier where Karski walked through Izbica and acted like he had been there, and the interview from 1995. The fact that those admissions exist at all is proof that he did not go to Belzec - had he really gone he would have doubled down on his account upon it being questioned.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:13 pm

BRoI wrote:Acrimony aside, Jeff, our argument . . .

I never noticed but anyway: :clap:
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:00 am

Karski's Dec. '42 London report:

http://szukajwarchiwach.pl/800/42/0/-/7 ... CgjAaXisyA

In it the distribution camp is not identified as Belzec. Belzec is mentioned separately, as having huge gas chambers. The connection between the paragraphs could be the word "takie" (such), which could mean that Karski was comparing the Belzec GCs to the train quicklime gassing he has just described, but it's too ambiguous, it could also be a turn of phrase.

Side note: usage of some sort of chemical to maintain cleanliness in wagons is mentioned by several witnesses, must have been a standard procedure. Some just drew wrong conclusions from it (and that the quicklime gassing is wholly based on assumptions rather direct witnessing follows from the logic of the report).

Codzienny kontyngent zydow zapakowywany jest do pociagow towarowych i wiezony do obozow rozdzielczych, umieszczonych przy torach kolejowych; kazdemu zydowi wolno zabrac 15 kg zywnosci i caly majatek ruchomy w pieniadzach, kosztownosciach itp.
Jeden z takich obozow rozdzielczych widzialem, "wysylano" z niego zydow na wschod. Kilkadziesiat tysiecy zydow dzien i noc pod otwartym niebem, glodzonych, oszalalych, przerazonych, rozhisteryzowanych. Dzieci umieraja, kobiety szaleja, nieznosny zapach na setike metrow, noca krzyki i wycia nie pozwalaja spac okolicznej ludnosci w promieniui paru kilometrow. Tu zaczyna sie wlasciwe mordowanie zydow. Przy pomoci batow, kolb, przy gestych strzalach w tlum, pakuje sie zydow z tych obozow do wagonow kolejowych. Do wagonu towarowego, ktory normalnie miesci okolo 40 osob, musi sie wepchnac 120 do 130 osob. Poniewaz stojac moze zmiescic sie w takim wagonie okolo 90 do 100 osob, zatym okolo 30 osob musi wdrapywac sie na glowy stojacych. Gdy w ten sposob wagon zapelni sie, zamyka sie go szczelnie i "napelnia" nastepny. "Napelnianie" takiego wagonu /widzialem to osobiscie/, i sceny, jakie przytym sie dzieja, pokazuja, ze Dante opisujac swoje pieklo, bynajmniej najstraszliwszych scen nie wymyslil.

Napelniony w ten sposob, drgajacy jekami, wyciem, konwulsyjnym szamotaniem sie cial, pociag, przejezdia kilka kilometrow i jest odstawiany na boczny tor. Na bocznym torze stoi 3-5 dni. Przez piec do osmiu dni nie otwiera sie wagonow. Kazdy zalatwia sie przez caly czas w wagonie. Jednak podloga kazdego wagonu wysypane jest nielasowanym wapnem "dla zachowania czystosci". Zalatwiania sie na to wapno, powoduje jego lasowanie i zaduszanie wszystkich obecnych. Juz po jednej dobie wszyscy normalnie umieraja, po 3-ch, 5-ciu dniach nowe partie zydow oczyszczaja wagony i przygotowuja na nastepne transporty. W ten sposob wysiedla sie zydow na wschod.

Kolo Belzca sa takie olbrzymie komory gazowe, gdzie dusi sie zydow partiami po kilkaset osob. Ciala ich sa nastepnie palone - otrzymywany material podobno uzywany jest na nawoz sztuczny. W ten sposob doslownie realizuja Niemcy slowa Führera, ze zydzi sa "gnojem ludzkosci"...

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:15 am

Thanks, Sergey. I will translate this when I get home.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:30 am

Just for future reference, the Belzec part of Karski's 1940 report: http://szukajwarchiwach.pl/800/22/0/-/3 ... QcBkzlFPIw

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:08 am

Sergey_Romanov wrote:Karski's Dec. '42 London report:

http://szukajwarchiwach.pl/800/42/0/-/7 ... CgjAaXisyA


How do you know Karski wrote that?

btw, it's also available [with a lot of other docs] on pdf page 232f:
http://polishinstitute.com/prm/prm76a.pdf

The first part of that report is about Auschwitz, yet Fleming [2014:135] wrote:

Jan Karski, almost certainly had knowledge of the camp and it is likely that he carried information about the camp. However, there is no documentary record of Karski speaking of the mass slaughter of Jews at Auschwitz when he reached London (26 November 1942).
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:09 am

BRoI wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:Karski's Dec. '42 London report:

http://szukajwarchiwach.pl/800/42/0/-/7 ... CgjAaXisyA


How do you know Karski wrote that?


Occam's razor: it is entitled "Short notes of an eyewitness" and written from a 1st person perspective. Why should I assume, absent any other evidence, that he did not write it?

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Balsamo » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:04 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Thanks, Sergey. I will translate this when I get home.

You speak Polish??? :o

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:23 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Thanks, Sergey. I will translate this when I get home.

You speak Polish??? :o



:lol:

No, that's what translation programs are for!!!

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:48 am

The echo of Karski's account can be found at http://www.msz.gov.pl/resource/e7497fea ... 9d697a:JCR pp.8-9

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:23 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:Karski's Dec. '42 London report:

http://szukajwarchiwach.pl/800/42/0/-/7 ... CgjAaXisyA

In it the distribution camp is not identified as Belzec. Belzec is mentioned separately, as having huge gas chambers. The connection between the paragraphs could be the word "takie" (such), which could mean that Karski was comparing the Belzec GCs to the train quicklime gassing he has just described, but it's too ambiguous, it could also be a turn of phrase.

Side note: usage of some sort of chemical to maintain cleanliness in wagons is mentioned by several witnesses, must have been a standard procedure. Some just drew wrong conclusions from it (and that the quicklime gassing is wholly based on assumptions rather direct witnessing follows from the logic of the report).

Codzienny kontyngent zydow zapakowywany jest do pociagow towarowych i wiezony do obozow rozdzielczych, umieszczonych przy torach kolejowych; kazdemu zydowi wolno zabrac 15 kg zywnosci i caly majatek ruchomy w pieniadzach, kosztownosciach itp.
Jeden z takich obozow rozdzielczych widzialem, "wysylano" z niego zydow na wschod. Kilkadziesiat tysiecy zydow dzien i noc pod otwartym niebem, glodzonych, oszalalych, przerazonych, rozhisteryzowanych. Dzieci umieraja, kobiety szaleja, nieznosny zapach na setike metrow, noca krzyki i wycia nie pozwalaja spac okolicznej ludnosci w promieniui paru kilometrow. Tu zaczyna sie wlasciwe mordowanie zydow. Przy pomoci batow, kolb, przy gestych strzalach w tlum, pakuje sie zydow z tych obozow do wagonow kolejowych. Do wagonu towarowego, ktory normalnie miesci okolo 40 osob, musi sie wepchnac 120 do 130 osob. Poniewaz stojac moze zmiescic sie w takim wagonie okolo 90 do 100 osob, zatym okolo 30 osob musi wdrapywac sie na glowy stojacych. Gdy w ten sposob wagon zapelni sie, zamyka sie go szczelnie i "napelnia" nastepny. "Napelnianie" takiego wagonu /widzialem to osobiscie/, i sceny, jakie przytym sie dzieja, pokazuja, ze Dante opisujac swoje pieklo, bynajmniej najstraszliwszych scen nie wymyslil.

Napelniony w ten sposob, drgajacy jekami, wyciem, konwulsyjnym szamotaniem sie cial, pociag, przejezdia kilka kilometrow i jest odstawiany na boczny tor. Na bocznym torze stoi 3-5 dni. Przez piec do osmiu dni nie otwiera sie wagonow. Kazdy zalatwia sie przez caly czas w wagonie. Jednak podloga kazdego wagonu wysypane jest nielasowanym wapnem "dla zachowania czystosci". Zalatwiania sie na to wapno, powoduje jego lasowanie i zaduszanie wszystkich obecnych. Juz po jednej dobie wszyscy normalnie umieraja, po 3-ch, 5-ciu dniach nowe partie zydow oczyszczaja wagony i przygotowuja na nastepne transporty. W ten sposob wysiedla sie zydow na wschod.

Kolo Belzca sa takie olbrzymie komory gazowe, gdzie dusi sie zydow partiami po kilkaset osob. Ciala ich sa nastepnie palone - otrzymywany material podobno uzywany jest na nawoz sztuczny. W ten sposob doslownie realizuja Niemcy slowa Führera, ze zydzi sa "gnojem ludzkosci"...


Translation:

The daily quota of Jews is packed into cargo trains and sent to distribution camps located at railway tracks; Every Jew is allowed to take 15 kg of food and all movable property in money, valuables, etc.
One of these distribution camps saw "sending" Jews from east to east. A dozen or so thousand Jews day and night under open skies, starved, mad, scary, hysterical. The children are dying, the women are crazy, the smell is not up to a meter high, the night screams and screams do not allow the spacial population within a few kilometers. This is where the proper killing of Jews begins. With the help of the whips, the flasks, with gestures in the crowds, the Jews from these camps are packed into railway wagons. For a freight wagon, which normally holds about 40 people, it must propel 120 to 130 people. Because standing can be in such a car about 90 to 100 people, with about 30 people must climb on the head of the stand. When the wagon fills up, it closes it tightly and "fills" the next one. The "filling" of such a wagon / I saw it personally, and the scenes that followed it, show that Dante describing his hell, not the most horrible scenes he did not invent.
Filled in this way, jerking, jerking, convulsive body whirling, the train passes several kilometers and is set aside for a side track. On the side track stands 3-5 days. There are no wagons open for the eight days. Everyone carries on in the car all the time. However, the floor of each wagon is sprinkled with unlabelled lime "for the preservation of cleanliness". Taking care of this lime, it causes it to roam and suffocate all present. After one day everyone will die normally, after 3 days, 5 days the new parties clean the wagons and prepare for the next transports. In this way Jews were resettled in the east.
Kolo Belzca are such huge gas chambers, where they strangle Jews with hundreds of people. Their bodies are then burned - the material obtained is reportedly used for artificial fertilizer. In this way Germans make the word Führer literally meaning that the Jews are the "flesh of mankind" ...

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:15 am

In this document Karski explains (internally) his aims in writing the book (basically, propaganda for the Polish underground state) and some of the context surrounding the writing (e.g. Emery Reves' conditions to write from the 1st person perspective because Americans like eyewitness reports, not to criticize the Soviet policy and if not to praise the communist part of the underground, then to omit their mentions entirely).

http://www.szukajwarchiwach.pl/800/22/0 ... g-ecpr_hrQ
http://www.jankarski.org/uploads/tx_yum ... e_1945.pdf

A couple of comments are interesting:

Piszac ksiazke, staralem sie pisac przedewszystkiem prawde: zarowno s mojej dzialalnosci osobistej, jak i prawde o rzeczywistosci Polski. Oczywiscie, musialem nieco zmienic ze wzgledow technicznych rozne przez siebie opisywane incydenty, nigdy jednak nie przeistaczalem istotnej rzeczywistosci.
(Underlining in the original.)

In the next paragraph he says that the book was written specifically for foreigners not aware of Polish issues, not for the Poles, therefore:
Dlatego bardzo czesto jest swiadomie naiwna, prostacka, nie przeciazona datami i faktami, kameralna, a nie podrecznikowa. Nie ma na to rady. Chcialem zeby ta ksiazka rozeszla sie wsrod mas, a nie wsrod paru tysiecy czytelnikow.
He then emphasizes again that the book is not for the Poles and he was against publishing it in Polish.

Later he characterizes the book as "undoubtedly pure propaganda (though presented in the American way)".

It is possible, therefore, that in his book Karski melded two separate accounts (his visit to an unnamed camp and a mention of Belzec) into one simply for the purpose of dumbing it down. It is also possible that he used this device earlier, from time to time.


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