Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:52 pm

BRoI wrote:Which bit is "pathetic speculation"? My claim that he'd never previously been to Izbica? Do you any proof that he had been to that predominantly Jewish, backwater town? No? So how is it "pathetic" exactly?


No, dumbass, I am stating that it is pathetic, beyond pathetic actually, to suggest that Karski was at the Belzec Death camp just because he happned to have visited nearby a few years earlier.

It was a interment camp for Jews trying to flee that nazis when Karski saw it; the labour camp wasn't created until 1940. Yet again your lack of knowledge of this topic is exposed.


I assumed it was one of the Nisko labor camps erected in 1939-40. I have since read Karski's 1939 statement and am aware that it was an internment camp.

Karski may not have mentioned the interment camp in his 1944 book


Which is telling.


That fact that you think this absurd proposition has merit and Karski's memorable experience at the exact location 3 years earlier is "totally irrelevant" would be shocking, were it coming from anyone other than you. With you, seeing merit in the absurd and dismissing inconvenient facts is what's expected.


I'll dumb it down for you.

1. Karski visited an internment camp near the future site of the Detah camp in late 1939

2. upon his second visit in the area, he described observing a camp that was located a considerable distance away from the village and which bore no resemblance to the actual death camp.

3. If he had recived such a powerful shick in his first trip to Belzec in 1939, why did he make absolutley no mention of his earlier experience in his 1944 account? I have read it and I can attest that there was no Deja Vu moment of recognition of the place he had seen three years beforehand.


Feb 1940: Karski wrote about what he saw in Belzec [probably at the camp feet from the later death camp]: "I shall never forget it. Never in my life have I beheld anything more frightening."

Sept 1942: Karski had forgotten where he saw it because he went to a completely different place and confused it with the place he was so shaken at less than 3 years earlier [according to Jeff 36]


Thank you for proving my point :lol: He made no mention in his 1944 account of the place he had seen being identical or in the same location as the 1939 Internment camp. He described it as being in a secluded location, 2.5 kilometers away from the town, not a half kilometer away from the train station.


No mention of a "nervous breakdown" in his 1944 book, but he clearly suffered shock and short bout of PTSD at/after his experience at the "death camp".


Read it again, he described being barely able to move and sobbing uncontrollably. His guide reprimanded him for it, said he was drawing attention.



So if anyone takes him at his word—even with his additional 1987 explanation that he saw Jews being loaded to travel to Sobibor—they're just a loony who should be in a home! Nice ad hom. Jeffrey!


His 1987 explanation contrasted his 1944 explanation on several points. And yes, you would have to be apocalyptically thick to read his 1944 statement already having known the location and layout of the Belzec Death Camp, and then conclude, inexplicably, that he had visited that same camp! And yet you make that error, time and time again. I rest my case


Nope. I just figured out what your issue is sometime ago. You left many clues in the abuse you've posted about me over the last few years.


LOl ok why don't you keep telling yourself that. To be totally frank I think that is just another example of your documented, proven tendency for self-projection.


Emptying your bowels is easy. Next time flush the results; don't post it on here for us to look at again.


Says the sad case that has been posting hallucinatory {!#%@} acting like he's winning lol :lol: :lol:

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:00 pm

BRoI wrote:
Lesser-Jeff is talking through his muir cap. He makes 2 false claims and repeats a Mattogno canard that Jansson's already refuted.


The fact that you rely upon The Late Jansson is amusing. Everything I said is 100% true btw.

- there's no mention of a "train to Lublin and arriv[ing] in Belzec by dirt road on a hay cart" [p.340]
- he doesn't say camp was 2.5km from the village but 1.5m; yeah they're same-ish, but it's not what he wrote in his US-published book ['mericans don't do kilometres] [p.341]


I converted his description of the distance to the metric system, because that is the best means of comparing the distance between Belzec and Karski's Fairy Camp (2.5 KM) and the distance between the village and the actual death camp (0.5 km).

As for your other assertions, I have read teh book and I posted what was in it. Don't {!#%@} lie to us, we won't fall for it like your brain-dead lackeys at RODOH.

To be fair to; the first of the claims does appear in the revised 2012 Penguin edition, but Lesser-Jeff obviously didn't read the "Note on the text" forward, if he even has that book.


I read a 2011 edition. I do not know the details, but those claims were clearly and explicitly made.

Image
Figure 2: Belzec. Despite the slope, it is perfectly plausible that an observer would describe this location as a plain.


If you're blind perhaps, :lol:

It Is True Because Lesser-Jeff Said So!!!!


keep shrieking there little tadpole :lol: Karski collborated with Wood and Jankowski in their biography of him, and he assisted them in the writing. It's out there for anyone to see.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:02 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Balsamo wrote:Ok, i admit that my knowledge on those things are quite weak...And i have not follow this discussion with much attention.
So forgive me, but i have just one question.

as far as i know, Izbica was not an camp but a ghetto used as a transfer center. How can a city be confused with a camp made of newly built barracks in the first place?
I mean you can confuse two camps, but not a camp with a Ghetto, can you?


To my understanding the Transit center wasn't located within the city, it was probably outside the city center.


Never heard of that one, sorry, but as i said i know very little on Izbica - not the most written about Ghetto - but i still wonder why the nazis would have build a transit camp outside the Ghetto when the Ghetto had its own railway station.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Denying-History » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:03 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Balsamo wrote:Ok, i admit that my knowledge on those things are quite weak...And i have not follow this discussion with much attention.
So forgive me, but i have just one question.

as far as i know, Izbica was not an camp but a ghetto used as a transfer center. How can a city be confused with a camp made of newly built barracks in the first place?
I mean you can confuse two camps, but not a camp with a Ghetto, can you?


To my understanding the Transit center wasn't located within the city, it was probably outside the city center.


Never heard of that one, sorry, but as i said i know very little on Izbica - not the most written about Ghetto - but i still wonder why the nazis would have build a transit camp outside the Ghetto when the Ghetto had its own railway station.


You are not the only one. I am working off a very sketchy knowledge of the Ghetto and a few portions of Mattognos book.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:09 pm

additionally:

1. Karski only saw a couple buildings, whereas the entire Belzec camp facility had many.

Image

2. He made no mention of the reception yard, or the guard tower.

3. He described multiple gates

4. He made no mention of the concealment of the barbed wire with shrubs, an exceptionally prominent detail.

5. He made no mention of the covered pathway, or the narrow gauge railway.

6. He described the camp as being rather larger than it actually was.

7. Belzec was divided into multiple sections, he described a massive, open air pen that was a single entity. Ad DH stated, it bears more resemblance to the open air camps fro Soviet POW's in 1941.

I cannot help but conclude that he either

a) confused Izbica for Belzec

b) knowingly visited Izbica and portrayed it as Belzec for "artistic licence"

or

c) made it up entirely.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Denying-History » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:20 pm

Thought this might provided an idea of the area.

Photograph from inside the Ghetto.

Image

This is the area which he would have saw.

Image
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:21 pm

at the end of the day, witness testimonies of Belzec don't sound like Karski's account. End of story. No way to corroborate his account or locate it. I am increasingly leaning towards options B and C.
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:22 pm

Jeff wrote:

I cannot help but conclude that he either

a) confused Izbica for Belzec

b) knowingly visited Izbica and portrayed it as Belzec for "artistic licence"

or

c) made it up entirely.


I would add

d) he visited another camp that was not Belzec nor Izbica...

But i would exclude a) and b) again as Izbica was not a camp with barracks but a Ghetto with houses.
In the interview i posted, he says that no Polish Police were allowed inside the camps...but only German and what is to be understood as Trawnikis, now Trawnikis were used at Izbica, but so was Polish Police. Inside the Ghetto, as in other Ghetto, there was a Jewish Police...
JK does not describe a ghetto neither...or maybe i missed something.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Denying-History » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:27 pm

Balsamo wrote:Jeff wrote:

I cannot help but conclude that he either

a) confused Izbica for Belzec

b) knowingly visited Izbica and portrayed it as Belzec for "artistic licence"

or

c) made it up entirely.


I would add

d) he visited another camp that was not Belzec nor Izbica...

But i would exclude a) and b) again as Izbica was not a camp with barracks but a Ghetto with houses.
In the interview i posted, he says that no Polish Police were allowed inside the camps...but only German and what is to be understood as Trawnikis, now Trawnikis were used at Izbica, but so was Polish Police. Inside the Ghetto, as in other Ghetto, there was a Jewish Police...
JK does not describe a ghetto neither...or maybe i missed something.


SM has some testimonies from the Ghetto, so it shouldn't be left out as a possibility.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:29 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Balsamo wrote:Ok, i admit that my knowledge on those things are quite weak...And i have not follow this discussion with much attention.
So forgive me, but i have just one question.

as far as i know, Izbica was not an camp but a ghetto used as a transfer center. How can a city be confused with a camp made of newly built barracks in the first place?
I mean you can confuse two camps, but not a camp with a Ghetto, can you?


To my understanding the Transit center wasn't located within the city, it was probably outside the city center.

AS to Izbica, that's not my understanding, which is that the town, Jews making up nearly all the residents, was made into a Durchgangsghetto and that within the town Jews transported in lived in their own sections, and even administered them in different ways. I think Jansson's wrong about what the standard sources say concerning deportations from the town in October 1942 - but I'm not 100% sure. There are photos of Izbica at AHF and some other places IIRC. The town was bounded on one side by a river and hills on other sides, I think (Krombach described the town being in a valley). Jews were not allowed to leave Izbica.

From Krombach's "report": "The village itself is run, under SS supervision, by the so-called Judenrat with responsibilities such as law and order, sanitation, disinfection, burial, supplies, firewood, housing, soup kitchen, etc. The Judenrat is made up of leaders of the individual transports.” "Newcomers” were put on a “Working Committee.” If someone speaks out, “he is rendered harmless by the simple expedient of being shoved onto one of the evacuation transports that leave here from time to time.” “The legal code is simple to describe: the death penalty.” For “everything,” leaving the district before 7am or after 7pm, bartering or trading, “Sending letters or other messages,” owning money. (p. 190) Sardonically, Krombach observed that in following German orders re transports, "With exemplary inhumanity, the Czechs in the Judenrat put poor people on the next available transport.” (p. 191) "No week goes by without something happening: evacuation, roundups of people on the street for work in the vicinity, visits from outside SS, house searches, confiscation of particular items, etc., etc. Recently on one morning alone more than 20 Polish Jews were shot for baking bread. . . . There could be another evacuation tomorrow, even though the officials concerned say that there won’t be any more.” (p. 195)

Conditions: “’Hygiene’ is a joke. Everything filthy, lice (particularly clothes lice that spread typhus), fleas, bugs. There are few latrines. Sewage flows through unpaved streets (stench, illness). One illness is very common here: a high temperature with no other symptoms. . . . Diarrhea is equally common.” (p. 195)

For me, I didn't really know how to verify Karski's account when I poked into it years ago. It "sounds like" it might be here/not here might be one method, I guess, but lots of things sound like lots of other things.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:31 pm

Balsamo wrote:Jeff wrote:

I cannot help but conclude that he either

a) confused Izbica for Belzec

b) knowingly visited Izbica and portrayed it as Belzec for "artistic licence"

or

c) made it up entirely.


I would add

d) he visited another camp that was not Belzec nor Izbica...

But i would exclude a) and b) again as Izbica was not a camp with barracks but a Ghetto with houses.
In the interview i posted, he says that no Polish Police were allowed inside the camps...but only German and what is to be understood as Trawnikis, now Trawnikis were used at Izbica, but so was Polish Police. Inside the Ghetto, as in other Ghetto, there was a Jewish Police...
JK does not describe a ghetto neither...or maybe i missed something.

This matches Krombach's letter except for SS raids/forays into Izbica and for actions.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:34 pm

Well the only source i have for Izbica is the USHMM Encyclopedia of camps and ghettos...
indeed, Actions used Germans, Trawnikis and Polish (Blue) police...

PS: Glad you changed your avatar... ;)

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:37 pm

Which is one "standard" source that doesn't say what Jansson does on timing of deportations from Izbica.

(I miss the old guy but this will do for now. LOL)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:50 pm

this from his 1944 account

We stopped for a moment to collect ourselves. I noticed off to my left the railroad tracks which passed about a hundred yards from the camp. From the camp to the track a sort of raised passage had been built from old boards. On the track a dusty freight train waited, motionless.


This makes no sense. For the tracks to be to his left, JK would have had to been entering the camp from the eastern gate, i.e on the top right corner of the map I posted earlier. There would have been no Jews crowded into that part of the camp, and there would have been a guard tower looming right over his {!#%@} head. Additionally, there would have been almost a dozen buildings between him and the train tracks, thus obscuring the view. Additionally, the train tracks passed considerably less than 100 meters away from the camp. I am calling BS.

EDIT: there was also a fenced off camp within a camp that he would have clearly seen had he entered through that gate. He made no mention of it.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 6:05 pm

Here is a excerpt from a March 1943 account given by Karski

Not once during the journey are the doors of the cars opened with the result that many die before they reach the ‘sorting point’ which is located about fifty kilometers from the city of Belzec. [...]In the uniform of a Polish policeman I visited the sorting point near Belzec. It is a huge barrack only about half of which is covered with a roof.
When I was there about 5,000 men and women were in the camp.


Here he describes one massive facility, half of which is covered and half of which is not. And here he says that it is 50 kilometers from Belzec. None of this matches up with the layout of the Belzec Death Camp and it indeed contrasts his 1944 statement on many points.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 09, 2016 6:17 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Here is a excerpt from a March 1943 account given by Karski

Not once during the journey are the doors of the cars opened with the result that many die before they reach the ‘sorting point’ which is located about fifty kilometers from the city of Belzec. [...]In the uniform of a Polish policeman I visited the sorting point near Belzec. It is a huge barrack only about half of which is covered with a roof.
When I was there about 5,000 men and women were in the camp.


Here he describes one massive facility, half of which is covered and half of which is not. And here he says that it is 50 kilometers from Belzec. None of this matches up with the layout of the Belzec Death Camp and it indeed contrasts his 1944 statement on many points.



Any suggestion on where that could have been?

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 6:28 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:Here is a excerpt from a March 1943 account given by Karski

Not once during the journey are the doors of the cars opened with the result that many die before they reach the ‘sorting point’ which is located about fifty kilometers from the city of Belzec. [...]In the uniform of a Polish policeman I visited the sorting point near Belzec. It is a huge barrack only about half of which is covered with a roof.
When I was there about 5,000 men and women were in the camp.


Here he describes one massive facility, half of which is covered and half of which is not. And here he says that it is 50 kilometers from Belzec. None of this matches up with the layout of the Belzec Death Camp and it indeed contrasts his 1944 statement on many points.



Any suggestion on where that could have been?


I have no idea. At this point I am leaning towards him making it up or combining details of a number of places he had been to.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 6:32 pm

Walter Laquer, in The Terrible Secret spoke with Karski about his experiences. on page 230-233 Karski states that ha did not see the gas chambers because "these were walled in and could be approached only with a special permit." That does not match up with any description of Belzec I have read. The Gas chambers were visible from the platform of the train and were not "walled off".

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 6:40 pm

Balsamo: It appears that the 1943 report that I mentioned may not have been given by Karski, however, it is very similar to Karski's account - it describes a Pole who visited a sorting camp outside Belzec in disguise as a Polish policeman and was written in the first person. The similarity is striking. Either Karski wrote it or he used it as a blueprint for his later account. The original account cannot in any way be seen as describing the Belzec Death Camp itself, as it explicitly describes that very camp as the final destination from the sorting camp.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:00 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:No, dumbass, I am stating that it is pathetic, beyond pathetic actually, to suggest that Karski was at the Belzec Death camp just because he happned to have visited nearby a few years earlier.

The actual point you were supposed to be responding to here was whether Karski had ever been to Izbica prior to his alleged 1942 visit. Tawdry, even for you.


That fact that you think this absurd proposition has merit and Karski's memorable experience at the exact location 3 years earlier is "totally irrelevant" would be shocking, were it coming from anyone other than you. With you, seeing merit in the absurd and dismissing inconvenient facts is what's expected.


I'll dumb it down for you.

1. Karski visited an internment camp near the future site of the Detah camp in late 1939

2. upon his second visit in the area, he described observing a camp that was located a considerable distance away from the village and which bore no resemblance to the actual death camp.

3. If he had recived such a powerful shick in his first trip to Belzec in 1939, why did he make absolutley no mention of his earlier experience in his 1944 account? I have read it and I can attest that there was no Deja Vu moment of recognition of the place he had seen three years beforehand.

Aside, bozo, from the fact he consistently claimed to have visited Belzec from December 1942 until well into the 1990s, maybe even to his death. We're yet to see proof he did really concede he was at Izbica and not Belzec.


Thank you for proving my point :lol: He made no mention in his 1944 account of the place he had seen being identical or in the same location as the 1939 Internment camp. He described it as being in a secluded location, 2.5 kilometers away from the town, not a half kilometer away from the train station.

And he placed *Izbica* "about 100 miles east of Warsaw" when it's actually 140 odds miles south-east, yet you're bitching about an estimate of 2.5km [when it's only c.1km] being unrealistic!

He didn't give an estimated distance from the "death camp" to the station in his 1944 book.


No mention of a "nervous breakdown" in his 1944 book, but he clearly suffered shock and short bout of PTSD at/after his experience at the "death camp".

Read it again, he described being barely able to move and sobbing uncontrollably. His guide reprimanded him for it, said he was drawing attention.

I know full well what it says in Chapter 30 and I also know what he wrote about his suicide attempt whilst being held by the Gestapo. It sounds like he had a panic attack in the "death camp" and suffered from PTSD for the following two days exacerbated by the alcohol he consumed.

Nervous breakdown are the results of long-term issues. Read up on them. Start here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_br ... d_symptoms


His 1987 explanation contrasted his 1944 explanation on several points. And yes, you would have to be apocalyptically thick to read his 1944 statement already having known the location and layout of the Belzec Death Camp, and then conclude, inexplicably, that he had visited that same camp! And yet you make that error, time and time again. I rest my case

Had you started? :lol: When are you going to explain why he lied/was mistaken and why he stuck to his guns for over 50 years, maybe even to the end of his life?


Nope. I just figured out what your issue is sometime ago. You left many clues in the abuse you've posted about me over the last few years.

LOl ok why don't you keep telling yourself that. To be totally frank I think that is just another example of your documented, proven tendency for self-projection.

Here's the part of my post you opted not to response to:
Awahh. Didn't even pretend to make a point, just went for the best sort of insult he could muster now he's deliberately avoiding the psychological projection ones he's renown for.

So, you managed a monkey see monkey do response. Which you think is clever!
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- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:08 pm

Balsamo: It appears that the 1943 report that I mentioned may not have been given by Karski, however, it is very similar to Karski's account - it describes a Pole who visited a sorting camp outside Belzec in disguise as a Polish policeman and was written in the first person. The similarity is striking. Either Karski wrote it or he used it as a blueprint for his later account. The original account cannot in any way be seen as describing the Belzec Death Camp itself, as it explicitly describes that very camp as the final destination from the sorting camp.


You mean this article first published in TGS, which you haven't consulted.

Image

Of course it's based on Karski, but he didn't write it. I told D-H this earlier on the thread.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=539882#p539882
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Denying-History » Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:13 pm

BRoI wrote:Of course it's based on Karski, but he didn't write it. I told D-H this earlier on the thread.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=539882#p539882


Something which I never claimed... I said it was recorded that he wore a polish police uniform.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:18 pm

BROI wrote:I know full well what it says in Chapter 30 and I also know what he wrote about his suicide attempt whilst being held by the Gestapo. It sounds like he had a panic attack in the "death camp" and suffered from PTSD for the following two days exacerbated by the alcohol he consumed.


What you've said casts even more doubt on his account.

Karski was under a great deal of stress, he witnessed something traumatizing and was still dealing the fact that the Gestapo tortured him.

Also, going by the Lanzmann Transcript Karski placed the time of his visit in November, not October. So now we have a discrepancy in the time. Karski mentioned a wall in the transcript that is not in his original account.
I still don't see anywhere where he mentions a guard tower or towers which would stick out.

So, my conclusion is he didn't visit Belzec. I'm not even sure what he saw. At this point I fall back on statements given by the SS guards and Reder, men who actually spent more time than the few hours that Karski spent there.
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:18 pm

BRoI wrote:The actual point you were supposed to be responding to here was whether Karski had ever been to Izbica prior to his alleged 1942 visit. Tawdry, even for you.


At this point I am willing to consider that Karski may have been conflating separate events or perhaps even making things up. But you are rather slow witted and unable to follow the pace of the thread so the fact that you haven't clued into that is not surprising. You were likely busey adjusting your catheter.

He didn't give an estimated distance from the "death camp" to the station in his 1944 book.


Wrong again. You are unprecedented in your ability to get almost everything wrong, all the time. I have read the book, it is open on the table just a few inches away from me right now. Is this going to lead to another episode of "the book did it" ass covering on your part?


I know full well what it says in Chapter 30 and I also know what he wrote about his suicide attempt whilst being held by the Gestapo. It sounds like he had a panic attack in the "death camp" and suffered from PTSD for the following two days exacerbated by the alcohol he consumed.


Well if it isn't Doctor Dumbass! Thank you for your armature diagnoses and your spamming of Wikipedia (lol) , but Karski described nausea, vomiting, uncontrollable terror, and a complete sense of numbness among other symptoms. That is a lot more than a panic attack. I know somone who had a nervous breakdown and received treatment. The symptoms were similar to what Karski described.


Had you started? :lol: When are you going to explain why he lied/was mistaken and why he stuck to his guns for over 50 years, maybe even to the end of his life?


See below. I am now leaning more towards his conflating his 1939 experience in Belzec with a visit to another camp elsewhere deliberately, or perhaps making it up.


So, you managed a monkey see monkey do response. Which you think is clever!
[/quote]

I feel a bit guilty, arguing with you is like beating somone who has their hands tied.......exept I don't feel guilty at all :lol:

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:20 pm

BRoI wrote:
Of course it's based on Karski, but he didn't write it. I told D-H this earlier on the thread.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=539882#p539882


Hardly. Karski wrote his account a year after this was published and made no mention of a visit in his November 1942 report. It was clearly the other way around.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:24 pm

Denying-History wrote:Something which I never claimed... I said it was recorded that he wore a polish police uniform.


And I explained to you why Karski and his superiors would never-in-a-million-years have told representatives of Jewish groups that the Polish police were involved with the nazi's death camps.

The "Polish police uniform" was an invention of the person who wrote the article based on the "stenographic notes" supposedly taken at the meeting in London between the Poles [inc Karski] and Ignacy Schwarzbart.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:25 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Hardly. Karski wrote his account a year after this was published and made no mention of a visit in his November 1942 report. It was clearly the other way around.


You can't even comprehend the evidence when it's handed to you on a plate!

Image
http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/2014/volume_6/number_4/jan_karskis_visit_to_belzec.php
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:27 pm

what we have is a fine account of internal destruction of argument!

The Daft Rabbit wrote earlier in the thread
What you call "his original" wasn't even written by him. The preface to “Eye-Witness Report of the Annihilation of the Jews of Poland” on p.2 of The Ghetto Speaks , March 1, 1943, states that the article is based on "stenographic notes" taken at a conference supposedly on 02.12.42; supposedly attended by Karski [he's referred to as "Mr. 'X'" in the article], the Polish Minister of the Interior and the Jews Szmul Zygelbojm and Ignacy Schwarzbart.


He has provided proof that Karski attended the conference that resulted in the birth of the 1943 report, and therefore played a role in its creation. I must empathize that this account predated Karski's 1944 book and was obviously the inspiration for the chapter on his visit to the mysterious camp. The implication of this is clear: The 1944 account that TDR harps on was not the original and was derived from an account of a camp that could not have been Belzec.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Denying-History » Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:29 pm

BRoI wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Something which I never claimed... I said it was recorded that he wore a polish police uniform.


And I explained to you why Karski and his superiors would never-in-a-million-years have told representatives of Jewish groups that the Polish police were involved with the nazi's death camps.

The "Polish police uniform" was an invention of the person who wrote the article based on the "stenographic notes" supposedly taken at the meeting in London between the Poles [inc Karski] and Ignacy Schwarzbart.


I haven't made the following claim in bold... I never said that they would tell Jewish groups that he wore a Police uniform. I have really only said it was the earliest recorded uniform and might have been what he wore. It is a possibility.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:30 pm

BRoI wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:Hardly. Karski wrote his account a year after this was published and made no mention of a visit in his November 1942 report. It was clearly the other way around.


You can't even comprehend the evidence when it's handed to you on a plate!


Give it up, you have so lost this.

Karski's initial account, among other things, produced the except from TGS. This explicitly identifies the camp as not being the Death Camp of Belzec.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:39 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Also, going by the Lanzmann Transcript Karski placed the time of his visit in November, not October. So now we have a discrepancy in the time.


Jeff, I have photographs of all the files in the British National Archives on Karski, there's an abundance of proof that he was in England by late October 1942:

Weds...25th — Karski arrives in England and is detained, the Polish Embassy contacts the FO to ask for his release

Thurs..26th — Karski is taken to the Royal Patriotic School in London [this must been when he refused to answer questions]

Fri........27th — Karski is interrogated in the presence of reps. of the Polish Ministry of the Interior and Security Services

Sat.......28th — Karski is released at 15:00hrs

https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=78484#p78484



Jeffk 1970 wrote:So, my conclusion is he didn't visit Belzec. I'm not even sure what he saw. At this point I fall back on statements given by the SS guards and Reder, men who actually spent more time than the few hours that Karski spent there.


That's perfectly reasonable based on what we know. But the big question for me is why Karski always maintained he went to Belzec, and if he did finally admit he went to Izbica—as numerous people claim—why is it so hard to find some actual proof of it?
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:40 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Give it up, you have so lost this.

Karski's initial account, among other things, produced the except from TGS. This explicitly identifies the camp as not being the Death Camp of Belzec.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I love that you're shameless enough to tell me what a document you've never seen, but I have in my possession, says.

It say Belzec:

Image
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:30 pm

BRoI wrote:Jeff, I have photographs of all the files in the British National Archives on Karski, there's an abundance of proof that he was in England by late October 1942:


I believe you. According to the transcript, however, Karski did not correct Lanzmann on this.

So, we have documented proof that Karski was in Britain at the time that Lanzmann states the visit occurred (or close enough to prevent a visit in November). Karski does not correct this.

BROI wrote:That's perfectly reasonable based on what we know. But the big question for me is why Karski always maintained he went to Belzec, and if he did finally admit he went to Izbica—as numerous people claim—why is it so hard to find some actual proof of it?


I think it comes back to the fact he only made one visit, he was emotionally compromised, he got certain details wrong and there continues to be discrepancies about the visit. Because of this I go back to witnesses who actually spent real time there.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:37 pm

BRoI wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:Give it up, you have so lost this.

Karski's initial account, among other things, produced the except from TGS. This explicitly identifies the camp as not being the Death Camp of Belzec.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I love that you're shameless enough to tell me what a document you've never seen, but I have in my possession, says.

It say Belzec:

Image


The City of Belzec {!#%@}, not the Belzec Death Camp. You yourself stated that the report from March of 1943 was produced as a result of a conference that was attended by Karski and Szmul Zygielbojm among others. That report identified the camp as being a sorting camp, 50 kilomiters outside Belzec. You can't have this both ways.

In Facing a Holocaust, David Engel states that Karski's first report upon returning to London was to Władysław Sikorski and made no mention of the Jewish situation at all. That was what I referred to earlier and that is something that you, unsurprisingly, are unaware of. Score one for Jeff. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:50 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
BRoI wrote:Jeff, I have photographs of all the files in the British National Archives on Karski, there's an abundance of proof that he was in England by late October 1942:


I believe you. According to the transcript, however, Karski did not correct Lanzmann on this.

So, we have documented proof that Karski was in Britain at the time that Lanzmann states the visit occurred (or close enough to prevent a visit in November). Karski does not correct this.

BROI wrote:That's perfectly reasonable based on what we know. But the big question for me is why Karski always maintained he went to Belzec, and if he did finally admit he went to Izbica—as numerous people claim—why is it so hard to find some actual proof of it?


I think it comes back to the fact he only made one visit, he was emotionally compromised, he got certain details wrong and there continues to be discrepancies about the visit. Because of this I go back to witnesses who actually spent real time there.
\

Wood stated that he based his conclusion of Izbica off of numerous interviews with Karski himself, and visits to the site.

I myself am down to the following possibilities.

1. Karski did indeed visit Izbica, knowingly, and described it to Zygielbojm and Szwarcbart accurately as a sorting camp located 50 kilomiters away from Belzec. A year later he fudged the account by stating that he went to Belzec itself.

2. Karski visited Malkinia, but conflated Treblinka and Belzec, perhaps deliberately, in his conference with Zygielbojm and Szwarcbart. Later he stated that he went to Belzec himself.

3. Karski merely acted as a courier for the account on the "sorting camp" which was delivered to London. Later, when writing his own book, he used the account as a blueprint for a take of a trip to Belzec, a trip he never made.

It is a strong possibility, IMO, that he was an unreliable or even false witness, but there is no way he went to Belzec, his description of the camp is totally different from what the real life death camp looked like.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:56 pm

I must also empathize the fact that he did not make any mention of his visit in his initial report to Sikorski upon returning.

I also mock and ridicule the notion that his 1944 book is a more accurate indicator of his activities than the December 1942 conference with Szwarcbart, Zygielbojm, and others. The former was based on the latter, not the other way around. The child does not birth the mother, the nail does not strike the hammer, the rabbit does not eat the wolf and the tail does not wag the dog. To imply otherwise shreds ones credibility. Shreds.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:06 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
BRoI wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:Give it up, you have so lost this.

Karski's initial account, among other things, produced the except from TGS. This explicitly identifies the camp as not being the Death Camp of Belzec.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I love that you're shameless enough to tell me what a document you've never seen, but I have in my possession, says.

It say Belzec:

Image


The City of Belzec {!#%@}, not the Belzec Death Camp. You yourself stated that the report from March of 1943 was produced as a result of a conference that was attended by Karski and Szmul Zygielbojm among others. That report identified the camp as being a sorting camp, 50 kilomiters outside Belzec. You can't have this both ways.

In Facing a Holocaust, David Engel states that Karski's first report upon returning to London was to Władysław Sikorski and made no mention of the Jewish situation at all. That was what I referred to earlier and that is something that you, unsurprisingly, are unaware of. Score one for Jeff. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Agree, Jeff, but it does not explain how the city of Belzec became the Ghetto of Izbica, described by JK as a camps with mirradors and barbed wire while it was an open ghetto... i have Just read the link provided in the OP, and it makes no sense at all if the place is supposed to be Izbica...Why the Holocaust project website felt compelled to illustrate the article with pictures of Izbica is beyond me.
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:08 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
BRoI wrote:Jeff, I have photographs of all the files in the British National Archives on Karski, there's an abundance of proof that he was in England by late October 1942:


I believe you. According to the transcript, however, Karski did not correct Lanzmann on this.

So, we have documented proof that Karski was in Britain at the time that Lanzmann states the visit occurred (or close enough to prevent a visit in November). Karski does not correct this.

BROI wrote:That's perfectly reasonable based on what we know. But the big question for me is why Karski always maintained he went to Belzec, and if he did finally admit he went to Izbica—as numerous people claim—why is it so hard to find some actual proof of it?


I think it comes back to the fact he only made one visit, he was emotionally compromised, he got certain details wrong and there continues to be discrepancies about the visit. Because of this I go back to witnesses who actually spent real time there.
\

Wood stated that he based his conclusion of Izbica off of numerous interviews with Karski himself, and visits to the site.

I myself am down to the following possibilities.

1. Karski did indeed visit Izbica, knowingly, and described it to Zygielbojm and Szwarcbart accurately as a sorting camp located 50 kilomiters away from Belzec. A year later he fudged the account by stating that he went to Belzec itself.

2. Karski visited Malkinia, but conflated Treblinka and Belzec, perhaps deliberately, in his conference with Zygielbojm and Szwarcbart. Later he stated that he went to Belzec himself.

3. Karski merely acted as a courier for the account on the "sorting camp" which was delivered to London. Later, when writing his own book, he used the account as a blueprint for a take of a trip to Belzec, a trip he never made.

It is a strong possibility, IMO, that he was an unreliable or even false witness, but there is no way he went to Belzec, his description of the camp is totally different from what the real life death camp looked like.


My conclusions match yours, except I really do believe he visited a camp at some point and was mistaken about where he was.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:01 pm

Balsamo wrote:. . . how the city of Belzec became the Ghetto of Izbica, described by JK as a camps with . . . barbed wire while it was an open ghetto...

Barely following this, but I do know that Ernst Krombach wrote from Izbica in August 1942 that in Izbica "there's no barbed wire (thank God)!" Another small point against Izbica?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 10, 2016 2:04 am

Gentlemen, I am of the opinion that he either

A) visited Izbica or Malkinia, knowing that it was Izbica or Malkinia, and used his visit to contribute to the report of March 1943, excerpts of which were published in the Black Book of Polish Jewry, accurately describing these places as sorting camps. He then used the resulting account as a blueprint for his own account, and telescoped the setting, willingly, to Belzec.

B) He made the whole thing up and was only a courier. The 1943 article was the first version of his tale, and the 1944 book was a later version.

None of these reflect well on Karski, however he did not go to Belzec. Here is why.

1. He omitted any mention of the earth wall

2. He dramatically underestimated the number of buildings in the camp

3. He at no point specified the fact that the Belzec Death camp was not far from the internment camp he had visited in 1939, thus showing that wherever this was (if it was anywhere at all) was a place he was unfamiliar with. I would like to thank our little guest for providing us with this info.

4. there was a fence within a fence at Belzec, he omitted any mention of that.

5. He stated that upon arriving through the gate he was confronted by a mass of people - I have shown that this gate would have had to be in the eastern side of the camp, and located far, far away from the arrival platform. By December of 1942 this gate was no longer in existence.

6. He stated that there was a covered track leading about a hundred meters from the train tracks to the camp. This is not true, the railway led directly onto a platform right next to the camp, not a hundred meters away.

7. He omitted any mention of narrow gauge railway or mass graves.

8. he stated that the entire camp was filled with people, almost like an open air pen. In reality Belzec was walled off into several subsections.

9. He described it as chaotic when by October of 1942 it had become highly organized.


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