Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
User avatar
Jeff_36
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3757
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:06 am

BRoI wrote:You avoided addressing how the image completely refuted your original points about [A] me allegedly being confused about the camps and [B] the "work camp" being nowhere near the "death camp".


You refuted yourself. Thank you for proving your stupidity.

There were many work camps, some of which were located a considerable distance from the village. Even the work camp located near the future death camp that you moan shriek about proves nothing - it was a separate institution, and at the time Karski visited it the death camp was not in existence.

Instead you waffle aimlessly about where he worked in 1942 and propose this would mean he wouldn't remember a place he visited a few years earlier. WTF!


I pointed out that he was based out of Warsaw in 1942, and was working in a different division of the Home Army than the one that revied the initial info about the Nazi mass murders. Thus he was basically flying blind upon his return to the Lublin district and would have easily confused the Izbica camp with the Belzec Death Camp - a camp that he had never laid eyes on so much as a single time.

He saw "The Jewish Camp Near Belzec” in December 1939 and "Belzec ... death camp" in c.September 1942. A different of 2.9 months not "three and a half years". Basic maths.


Flat wrong! He saw the Izbica transit camp upon his second visit to the district, and not having seen the newly constructed death camp near Belzec before, assumed that this was it. How is this hard for you to understand?

[edit]

And now you've added an extra paragraph.


I know you have trouble reading, but in case you haven't figured out, I really don't like you and I don't particularly care for your tender little feelings.

Complete stawman.


AKA "I give up".

User avatar
Jeff_36
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3757
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:16 am

I will break this down

1. Karski saw the Belzec Labor Camp in December of 1939. The Belzec Death Camp had yet to be constructed and would not be constructed for another two years.

2. At the time of his 1942 trip he was stationed in Warsaw. The Home Army in the Warsaw area did not have as much information on what was going on in the Lublin District. Franciszek Zabecki, a member of the AK, stated that each AK district was autonomous and there was no communication between them. Thus JK, not being a native of the Lublin District and not being part of the local AK, would not have known much about the death camp near Belzec was, and would have had only a very general idea of its location.

3. upon observing the Izbica camp, JK assumed that this was the camp near Belzec. As his book was not published until 1944, this assumption was in all likelihood retroactive.

If you can't get that through your head then I can't help you.

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1529
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Denying-History » Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:17 am

I really don't understand your position BRoI... Its odd considering he didn't wear any uniform provided to those from the Baltic. He wore a Ukrainian uniform, and Belzec didn't have to many Ukrainians as SM has pointed out.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

User avatar
Jeff_36
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3757
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:19 am

Additionally, as the OP pointed out, his description of the place bore no resemblance to the Belzec death camp as it existed, as it was seen on areal photos, as it was described by other witnesses, and as it was described by it's guards and personnel. That leaves us with two options a) he made it up (unlikely) or b) he observed a different camp and assumed that it was the death camp near Belzec that he had not seen before. Numerous historians have asserted as much.

User avatar
BRoI
Poster
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:42 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:20 am

Denying-History wrote:I really don't understand your position BRoI... Its odd considering he didn't wear any uniform provided to those from the Baltic. He wore a Ukrainian uniform, and Belzec didn't have to many Ukrainians as SM has pointed out.


Where does he point that out?
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1529
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Denying-History » Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:26 am

BRoI wrote:
Denying-History wrote:I really don't understand your position BRoI... Its odd considering he didn't wear any uniform provided to those from the Baltic. He wore a Ukrainian uniform, and Belzec didn't have to many Ukrainians as SM has pointed out.


Where does he point that out?


Correction (as you do know my failure when it comes to typing. I meant to say he wore a Estonian uniform, and that Belzec didn't have many Estonians.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

User avatar
Jeff_36
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3757
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:27 am

Denying-History wrote:
BRoI wrote:
Denying-History wrote:I really don't understand your position BRoI... Its odd considering he didn't wear any uniform provided to those from the Baltic. He wore a Ukrainian uniform, and Belzec didn't have to many Ukrainians as SM has pointed out.


Where does he point that out?


Correction (as you do know my failure when it comes to typing. I meant to say he wore a Estonian uniform, and that Belzec didn't have many Estonians.


True, the Hiwis were almost invariably Ukrainian. The guards on the tops of the trains were Lithuanian, not Estonian.

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1529
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Denying-History » Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:53 am

BRoI wrote:I'll find out this week whether it really did, but as this French edition is based on the 1999 Polish one, the only thing likely to have changed are the nationality of the guide and the uniform Karski wore.


I am sort of confused by this... Did he wear:

A) A Polish police Uniform (Mattogno, Belzec, p. 26-27.)

B) An Estonian Uniform (Jan Karski, Story of a Secret State, p. 369)

C) A Ukrainian Uniform (Haven't seen any first and accounts from him for this claim. Only a post form JeffK)
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3840
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:05 am

Here are the main issues I have with Karski visiting "Belzec:"

His description of the camp does not match other witnesses' descriptions.

He only visited this camp once so his description was suspect.

Why would the Warsaw Ghetto Jews direct him to Belzec? If they wanted him to see a death camp they could have sent him to Treblinka.

Also, Karski wrote about this in his memoirs in 1944 so his recollection could be mistaken.

I also think it's funny that Jansson is so willing to accept that Karski saw Belzec but glossed over the condition of the prisoners. The Germans packed starving, dehydrated Jews onto railway cars to ship them off....somewhere. Does Jansson believe that prisoners in that condition would have survived a trip to the USSR? Dumb#%!.

User avatar
Jeff_36
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3757
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:18 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Here are the main issues I have with Karski visiting "Belzec:"

His description of the camp does not match other witnesses' descriptions.

He only visited this camp once so his description was suspect.

Why would the Warsaw Ghetto Jews direct him to Belzec? If they wanted him to see a death camp they could have sent him to Treblinka.

Also, Karski wrote about this in his memoirs in 1944 so his recollection could be mistaken.


I am open to the possibility that Karski perhaps made the whole thing up, but that is less likely than his mistaking Izbica for the new Camp at Belzec.

I also think it's funny that Jansson is so willing to accept that Karski saw Belzec but glossed over the condition of the prisoners. The Germans packed starving, dehydrated Jews onto railway cars to ship them off....somewhere. Does Jansson believe that prisoners in that condition would have survived a trip to the USSR? Dumb#%!.


There is literally no chance that it was Belzec, I mean, look at his description, it bears no resemblance.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3840
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:25 am

BRoI wrote:
Denying-History wrote:I really don't understand your position BRoI... Its odd considering he didn't wear any uniform provided to those from the Baltic. He wore a Ukrainian uniform, and Belzec didn't have to many Ukrainians as SM has pointed out.


Where does he point that out?


Off topic, Rabbit, but:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27177

Our resident deniers have not distinguished themselves, what do you think?
I even quoted Germar Rudolf....

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1529
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Denying-History » Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:34 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Here are the main issues I have with Karski visiting "Belzec:"

His description of the camp does not match other witnesses' descriptions.

He only visited this camp once so his description was suspect.

Why would the Warsaw Ghetto Jews direct him to Belzec? If they wanted him to see a death camp they could have sent him to Treblinka.

Also, Karski wrote about this in his memoirs in 1944 so his recollection could be mistaken.

I also think it's funny that Jansson is so willing to accept that Karski saw Belzec but glossed over the condition of the prisoners. The Germans packed starving, dehydrated Jews onto railway cars to ship them off....somewhere. Does Jansson believe that prisoners in that condition would have survived a trip to the USSR? Dumb#%!.


Karski's memory is arguably not very good, and some of his recorded testimonies are inconsistent. These inconsistencies are very minor though, for example in his interview with Claude Lanzmann (Transcript) he changes the ethnicity of his companion twice. He says his companion was a Jew first (p. 31) and shortly after his companion was Estonian (p. 35). As I have said though this is a Minor issue and he most likely picked up the name Belzec from what ever area he went to.

From my understanding the argument goes that he couldn't have visited Izbica because there were no transits in October 1942.

If this were to be true, the first requirement would clearly be that there actually was a transport departing Izbica at around this date. Consultation of standard sources readily confirms that there was not. The lists of transports in Yitzhak Arad’s standard book on the Reinhardt camps contains no transports departing Izbica between May 15 and October 22, 1942.20 A more recent list of all transports to and from Izbica contains some transports missing from Arad’s book, but confirms that no transport departed Izbica at any time even approximating the date of Karski’s visit.


http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/2014/volume_6/number_4/jan_karskis_visit_to_belzec.php#_ednref21

And then later mentioning that his earliest report says he went to Belzec. A MAJOR issue for this thesis is that in his earliest report he is claimed to have entered in an Polish police Uniform, which is most likely the uniform he wore.

He wouldn't have gotten in with a Estonian Uniform and Alen Heath claims that Jan never wore a Estonian Uniform ether.

IT MUST be quite clear to anyone that in 1944 the war was still on and information in Jan Karski's book had to be changed for security reasons, it has been accepted that he did not wear an Estonian uniform for example.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Letters/History/Heath160700.html

On of Jeff's resources says he wore a Ukrainian uniform but I am having trouble finding evidence for this.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3840
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:41 am

Jeff_36 wrote:I am open to the possibility that Karski perhaps made the whole thing up, but that is less likely than his mistaking Izbica for the new Camp at Belzec.


I think he went to a camp, I just think he was mistaken.
There's no reason to make this up.

Jeff_36 wrote:There is literally no chance that it was Belzec, I mean, look at his description, it bears no resemblance.


Yes, I agree. Karski was in the military, trained to observe details. At the very least the guard towers would have stood out, those towers were a direct threat.

User avatar
BRoI
Poster
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:42 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:26 am

Jeff_36 wrote:There were many work camps, some of which were located a considerable distance from the village. Even the work camp located near the future death camp that you moan shriek about proves nothing - it was a separate institution, and at the time Karski visited it the death camp was not in existence.

It was a few dozen feet from where the later death camp would be built. If this Jewish work camp was the one opened in 1940 on the site of the Jewish interment camp Karski saw in December 1939, Karski would have literally been there before.

You're the one "moan shriek" [sic]; insisting it was a "separate institution" and "the death camp was not in existence". No one's claimed otherwise!


I pointed out that he was based out of Warsaw in 1942, and was working in a different division of the Home Army than the one that revied the initial info about the Nazi mass murders. Thus he was basically flying blind upon his return to the Lublin district and would have easily confused the Izbica camp with the Belzec Death Camp - a camp that he had never laid eyes on so much as a single time.

I shall never forget it. Never in my life have I beheld anything more frightening.

- Karski on “The Jewish Camp Near Belzec”, February 1940

The gimp master would have us believe Karski had forgotten the location of it by September 1942 and confused a place he'd never been before [Izbica] for the place where he had the most frightening experience of his life less than 3 years earlier. All because "he was based out of Warsaw in 1942, and was working in a different division of the Home Army" ! Jeff_36 has spent far too much time with dumb and submissive latex donned gimps if he thinks the average joe, let alone a man as intelligent and highly educated as Karski, could make such a mistake. Sure, you can argue he lied, but claiming he was confused is absurd.


BRoI wrote:He saw "The Jewish Camp Near Belzec” in December 1939 and "Belzec ... death camp" in c.September 1942. A different of 2.9 months not "three and a half years". Basic maths.


Flat wrong! He saw the Izbica transit camp upon his second visit to the district, and not having seen the newly constructed death camp near Belzec before, assumed that this was it. How is this hard for you to understand?

I used Karski's own words to describe the two different camps whilst I corrected your poor calculation of the time between his two visits. Did you not see the quotation marks, or do you not know what they mean?

It really was fantastically stupid of you to post that. OMFG, as I understand the kidz say.


I know you have trouble reading,

After your legendary incomprehension immediately above, claiming that *I* have trouble reading is particularly ironic.


I really don't like you and I don't particularly care for your tender little feelings.

Is that's what you tell all your gimps?


BRoI wrote:Complete stawman.


AKA "I give up"

So, "strawman" is your gimps' safeword! Okkkayy, but we didn't really need to know that.

I meant "strawman" as used in the common parlance: You claimed I was arguing something that I wasn't; you attacked your invented argument; you claim to have refuted me because you refuted your invented argument.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3840
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:26 am

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Here are the main issues I have with Karski visiting "Belzec:"

His description of the camp does not match other witnesses' descriptions.

He only visited this camp once so his description was suspect.

Why would the Warsaw Ghetto Jews direct him to Belzec? If they wanted him to see a death camp they could have sent him to Treblinka.

Also, Karski wrote about this in his memoirs in 1944 so his recollection could be mistaken.

I also think it's funny that Jansson is so willing to accept that Karski saw Belzec but glossed over the condition of the prisoners. The Germans packed starving, dehydrated Jews onto railway cars to ship them off....somewhere. Does Jansson believe that prisoners in that condition would have survived a trip to the USSR? Dumb#%!.


Karski's memory is arguably not very good, and some of his recorded testimonies are inconsistent. These inconsistencies are very minor though, for example in his interview with Claude Lanzmann (Transcript) he changes the ethnicity of his companion twice. He says his companion was a Jew first (p. 31) and shortly after his companion was Estonian (p. 35). As I have said though this is a Minor issue and he most likely picked up the name Belzec from what ever area he went to.

From my understanding the argument goes that he couldn't have visited Izbica because there were no transits in October 1942.

If this were to be true, the first requirement would clearly be that there actually was a transport departing Izbica at around this date. Consultation of standard sources readily confirms that there was not. The lists of transports in Yitzhak Arad’s standard book on the Reinhardt camps contains no transports departing Izbica between May 15 and October 22, 1942.20 A more recent list of all transports to and from Izbica contains some transports missing from Arad’s book, but confirms that no transport departed Izbica at any time even approximating the date of Karski’s visit.


http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/2014/volume_6/number_4/jan_karskis_visit_to_belzec.php#_ednref21

And then later mentioning that his earliest report says he went to Belzec. A MAJOR issue for this thesis is that in his earliest report he is claimed to have entered in an Polish police Uniform, which is most likely the uniform he wore.

He wouldn't have gotten in with a Estonian Uniform and Alen Heath claims that Jan never wore a Estonian Uniform ether.

IT MUST be quite clear to anyone that in 1944 the war was still on and information in Jan Karski's book had to be changed for security reasons, it has been accepted that he did not wear an Estonian uniform for example.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Letters/History/Heath160700.html

On of Jeff's resources says he wore a Ukrainian uniform but I am having trouble finding evidence for this.


From the transcript (thanks D-H), Lanzmann states that the Jewish Underground arranged for this visit in November of 1942.......????? See page 35. I thought it happened in October of 1942.
Page 41:
"....I only saw a fraction of the camp... What was deeper in the camp, I never went there. I saw some barracks, I saw a solid high fence."

We seem to get closer to an actual description of Belzec.

Belzec stopped receiving transports in December of 1942, is it possible that on the day due to some unforeseen reason Jews were shipped elsewhere to be gassed? Lanzmann and Karski talk about Sobibor.

Here is another problem:
The Lanzmann interview, the description of the camp differs from other links I provided. Karski described a flat plain surrounded by barbed wire in the earlier links I provided.

:?

It's entirely possible that by the time of the Lanzmann interview Karski's recollections were contaminated by outside sources, bringing us full circle.

:banghead:

User avatar
BRoI
Poster
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:42 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:54 am

Another source I tracked down and quoted earlier of FG's blog:

Here’s another reason why Murdock’s claim in 2000 that Karksi told him in 1985 that he went to Izbica is highly dubious:

An interview with Karski by the Polish journalist Maciej Kozlowski was published in the July 1987 edition of Dissent magazine.
https://search.opinionarchives.com/Summ ... P326-1.htm

“M.K. How did you get into the Belzec camp?

J.K. A guide contacted me. He appeared to be a Jew, but of course I cannot say for sure. We did not introduce ourselves and we did not talk. We went together to Lublin, changed trains, and arrived in Belzec. It was the middle of October. The guide took me to a hardware shop. Several hours later a man arrived. He spoke perfect Polish and was very matter-of-fact. He had an Estonian guard’s uniform for me. I knew that the Germans never used Poles in the death camps. The extermination was to be kept secret. The man gave me precise instructions: “You will follow me. You must not speak to anyone. You speak neither Polish nor German. I will take you into the camp, but once inside you will be on your own. As far as I know, you want to see the camp. After a while, I will give you a sign, and we will leave together.”

We entered the camp without any trouble. My guide was well known there, and after showing some documents, we were allowed in. The camp was enclosed, partly with barbed wire, partly by the wall. On the right side I saw a railway sidetrack. I was standing close to the main gate through which the Jews were being taken out. For many years I could not understand it. I thought that Belzec was a transit camp. It was after the war that I learned that it was a death camp. During the trials of the German war criminals in the late 1940’s, some Polish railwaymen who co-operated with the underground were cross-examined as witnesses. They explained the scene I saw.

By German standards, Belzec was run very inefficiently. In fact at that time its commander, SS Captain Gottlieb Hering, was on trial before an SS court. The extermination in Belzec was done by exhaust gases from engines salvaged from Soviet tanks. It was a very ineffective way of killing. The engines over-heated, and, and the whole process of killing lasted for a long time. Sometimes one transport had not been completed by the time a new one arrived. In such cases the new transport was directed to Sobibor, where the death machine was running much better. I witnessed such a scene. The Jews were being transported from Belzec to Sobibor. I could not see the gas chambers; they were, as I learned later, deeper inside the camp, on the other side of the mass of people being directed into the cars.

I would like now to mention some events that were taking place at the same time but were fully revealed only after the war. In August 1942 a certain German officer, Kurt Gerstein, arrived in Belzec. He was to put things in order, that is, to instruct the inefficient commander as to the virtues of Cyklon B gas compared with exhaust gas. He fulfilled his duty, but he must have had some conscience still alive within him. Returning, he met a Swedish diplomat on the train and told him the whole story. He told about the exhaust gases, the collapsing tank engines, the whole story about the extermination of Jews in the Belzec camp. The Swede made a report and sent it to Stockholm. But the Swedish authorities, in an effort not to antagonize the still powerful Germans, kept this report secret. An entire year passed before the report reached London. It didn’t mention Gerstein, of course. The Polish government learned about the report and made an uproar. But by now it was 1944. The ‘Jewish question’ in occupied Poland was solved. After the war Gerstein was caught by the French. He made a detailed report, and committed suicide.

M.K. That means that the information you transmitted to the West was not complete, but even so it was horrible enough the people could not believe you?

J.K. I saw terrible things in Belzec. I wrote about them in my book, Story of a Secret State, (Boston, 1944). I broke down right there. My guide noticed that I was not behaving normally and he shouted over the Jewish crowd, ‘Folge mir, folge mir!’ We both left by the same route. I spent less than an hour in the camp. I was sick, vomiting blood. I saw terrible things. Unbelievable. You would not believe what I saw either! Even today, although over forty years have passed, I cannot forget the scenes I witnessed there. [pp.330-331]”
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

User avatar
Jeff_36
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3757
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:10 am

No cigar. His description of the physical layout of the place in his original account bears no resemblance to the actual camp as it was. As I proved above, it is more likely that he either a) made it up or b) mistook his observation of the camp at Izbica for Belzec. His biographers, E. Thomas Wood and Stanislaw Jankowski, who have accessed far more information than you have, support the conclusion that he was present at Izbica.

Additionally, the physical description he gave of the town matched Izbica, not Belzec.
Last edited by Jeff_36 on Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
BRoI
Poster
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:42 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:26 am

Denying-History wrote:On of Jeff's resources says he wore a Ukrainian uniform but I am having trouble finding evidence for this.


You should read things a little more closely then.

From my first post on this thread:

Gervais-Francelle does ACTUALLY SAY that Karski originally said his Ukrainian guide was a "Latvian" [he's Estonian in my 1944 edition] and that Karski wore a "Latvian" uniform [an Estonian one in my copy] because the Polish government then hoped Lviv—with its mostly ethnically Ukrainian citizens—would remain part of Poland. In the 1999 Polish edition, Gervais-Francelle claims, the guide and the uniform are now described as Ukrainian so this French edition follows suit, which it does:

Nous avions choisi unjour où il devait y avoir des exécutions. Le renseignement avait été facile à obtenir, car un grand nombre d’Estoniens, de Lituaniens et d’Ukrainiens qui étaient employés comme gardiens de ce camp sous le contrôle de la Gestapo travaillaient aussi pour le compte des organisations juives, non pour des considérations humaines ou politiques mais pour gagner de l’argent. Je devais porter l’uniforme d’un de ces gardiens ukrainiens [154] le jour où il était de repos, et je me servirais de ses papiers. On m’assura que le désordre et la corruption régnaient à ce point dans ce camp qu’il y avait toutes les chances pour que mon déguisement passât inaperçu. De plus, l’expédition avait été minutieusement préparée. Je devais pénétrer dans le camp par une porte gardée uniquement par des Allemands car un Ukrainien aurait pu déceler plus facilement que je n’en étais pas un. L’uniforme ukrainien constituait un laissez-­passer en lui­même et l’on ne me demanderait probablement rien. Pour plus de sécurité encore, je devais être accompagné par un autre Ukrainien à notre solde. Je parlais allemand et pouvais donc, si cela devenait nécessaire, discuter avec les gardiens allemands et les acheter eux aussi.

[154. Nous rétablissons ici la vérité historique, comme l’a fait Jan Karski pour la première édition traduite en polonais de son livre en 1999 (cf. Tajne Państwo , op. cit .). En effet, il s’agit d’un gardien ukrainien (et non estonien), comme l’étaient tous ceux de Belżec et des camps annexes.]


roughly:

I would have to enter the camp through a door guarded by the Germans because Ukrainian guards would easily detect that I wasn't one of them. The Ukrainian uniform was itself a pass and it would be unlikely that the German guards would ask me anything. For additional camouflage I was to be accompanied by another Ukrainian who had been bribed. Since I knew German, if necessary I could talk to the German guards and also bribe them.

[154. We are restoring historical truth here, as Jan Karski did in 1999 for the first Polish translation of his book (see Tajne Państwo, op. Cit.). Indeed, it was a Ukrainian guard (not Estonian), as were those of Belzec and related camps.]
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

User avatar
Jeff_36
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3757
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:26 am

BRoI wrote:It was a few dozen feet from where the later death camp would be built. If this Jewish work camp was the one opened in 1940 on the site of the Jewish interment camp Karski saw in December 1939, Karski would have literally been there before.


I do not deny that he was in roughly the smae location at some point beforehand, I deny that he visited it a second time.



The gimp master would have us believe Karski had forgotten the location of it by September 1942 and confused a place he'd never been before [Izbica] for the place where he had the most frightening experience of his life less than 3 years earlier.


Pathetic speculation. Karski made no mention of the place he witnessed being the same location as the Belzec Internment/Labor camp he had seen three years beforehand. In all likelihood he was at Izbica.

All because "he was based out of Warsaw in 1942, and was working in a different division of the Home Army" !


The fact that you cannot fathom the relevance of this is a bit shocking. Karski was in Warsaw, the Warsaw Division of the Home Army had no contact with the Home Army in the District Lublin, Karski would have had no idea where the new camp was and could have easily confused the transit camp he saw with the recently established death camp. The fact that he had been to the site of where the actual death camp was set up three years previously means nothing. It's totally irrelevant.

Jeff_36 has spent far too much time with dumb and submissive latex donned gimps if he thinks the average joe, let alone a man as intelligent and highly educated as Karski, could make such a mistake. Sure, you can argue he lied, but claiming he was confused is absurd.


By his own account he was suffering a nervous breakdown and he was not native to the area. Additionally, his account was written some time later. I have not ruled out exaggeration on his part either.

I used Karski's own words to describe the two different camps whilst I corrected your poor calculation of the time between his two visits. Did you not see the quotation marks, or do you not know what they mean?

It really was fantastically stupid of you to post that. OMFG, as I understand the kidz say.


And the notion that Karski visited the actual Belzec Death Camp is so fantastically infantile that I cannot help but wonder if you are posting from a care home.


After your legendary incomprehension immediately above, claiming that *I* have trouble reading is particularly ironic.


The fact that my argument has sailed over you little head suggests otherwise.

Is that's what you tell all your gimps?


You are incredibly immature.

I meant "strawman" as used in the common parlance: You claimed I was arguing something that I wasn't; you attacked your invented argument; you claim to have refuted me because you refuted your invented argument.


Strawman or not, the notion that Karski would have instantly known the location of the Belzec Death Camp just because he had visited an internment camp near it's future site three years earlier is incredibly daft. Do you suggest that he experienced visions? That he was telepathic? I know you put a great deal of stick in his education, but this is a bit much.

I have to say, this is awfully easy.

User avatar
Jeff_36
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3757
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:31 am

Karski wrote:For many years I could not understand it. I thought that Belzec was a transit camp.


This is not at all unusual. "Resettlement" was the official story given out by the Germans and this was Karski's au priori assumption. Other contemporary observers prove that this was not the case, as do the fact that no trains ever left Belzec.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3840
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:32 am

Nice to see the two of you getting along.

:lol:

Careful, though. Pyrro is less likely to lock out topics than he was previously but still.....

User avatar
Jeff_36
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3757
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:41 am

Additional info: the statement TDR linked above contrasts Karski's account in 1944: in his original he stated that he took the train to Lublin and arrived in Belzec by dirt road on a hay cart. He describes the camp as being roughly two and a half kilometers away from the village, and located on flat ground, when the actual camp was located less than a kilometer away from Belzec and was situated on partially hilly terrain.

He made mention of Estonian and Lativan guards, and generally comes across as a somewhat unreliable witness. It should be noted however, that he fact checked and confirmed the biography of him by Wood and Jankowski, which is a clear acceptance on his part that he had been to Izbica.
Last edited by Jeff_36 on Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1529
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Denying-History » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:49 am

BRoI wrote:
Denying-History wrote:On of Jeff's resources says he wore a Ukrainian uniform but I am having trouble finding evidence for this.


You should read things a little more closely then.

From my first post on this thread:

Gervais-Francelle does ACTUALLY SAY that Karski originally said his Ukrainian guide was a "Latvian" [he's Estonian in my 1944 edition] and that Karski wore a "Latvian" uniform [an Estonian one in my copy] because the Polish government then hoped Lviv—with its mostly ethnically Ukrainian citizens—would remain part of Poland. In the 1999 Polish edition, Gervais-Francelle claims, the guide and the uniform are now described as Ukrainian so this French edition follows suit, which it does:

Nous avions choisi unjour où il devait y avoir des exécutions. Le renseignement avait été facile à obtenir, car un grand nombre d’Estoniens, de Lituaniens et d’Ukrainiens qui étaient employés comme gardiens de ce camp sous le contrôle de la Gestapo travaillaient aussi pour le compte des organisations juives, non pour des considérations humaines ou politiques mais pour gagner de l’argent. Je devais porter l’uniforme d’un de ces gardiens ukrainiens [154] le jour où il était de repos, et je me servirais de ses papiers. On m’assura que le désordre et la corruption régnaient à ce point dans ce camp qu’il y avait toutes les chances pour que mon déguisement passât inaperçu. De plus, l’expédition avait été minutieusement préparée. Je devais pénétrer dans le camp par une porte gardée uniquement par des Allemands car un Ukrainien aurait pu déceler plus facilement que je n’en étais pas un. L’uniforme ukrainien constituait un laissez-­passer en lui­même et l’on ne me demanderait probablement rien. Pour plus de sécurité encore, je devais être accompagné par un autre Ukrainien à notre solde. Je parlais allemand et pouvais donc, si cela devenait nécessaire, discuter avec les gardiens allemands et les acheter eux aussi.

[154. Nous rétablissons ici la vérité historique, comme l’a fait Jan Karski pour la première édition traduite en polonais de son livre en 1999 (cf. Tajne Państwo , op. cit .). En effet, il s’agit d’un gardien ukrainien (et non estonien), comme l’étaient tous ceux de Belżec et des camps annexes.]


roughly:

I would have to enter the camp through a door guarded by the Germans because Ukrainian guards would easily detect that I wasn't one of them. The Ukrainian uniform was itself a pass and it would be unlikely that the German guards would ask me anything. For additional camouflage I was to be accompanied by another Ukrainian who had been bribed. Since I knew German, if necessary I could talk to the German guards and also bribe them.

[154. We are restoring historical truth here, as Jan Karski did in 1999 for the first Polish translation of his book (see Tajne Państwo, op. Cit.). Indeed, it was a Ukrainian guard (not Estonian), as were those of Belzec and related camps.]


I mean via his first hand account... Aka something like a video testimonial, which from the testimony I have seen he seems stuck with the Estonian uniform... Not a translation as this obviously has lead to the conflicting messages of what he actually wore.

In his first report it was recorded that he was in a Polish Police uniform. And it seems safe to go with this.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

User avatar
Jeff_36
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3757
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 6:21 am

Does this Image Bear any resemblance with Karski's description? Hell no.

User avatar
Jeff_36
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3757
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 6:35 am

Karski made no mention of any kind of delousing - the critical plank of the denier Unicornville thesis. Additionally, he stated that there were multiple gates leading into the camp, whereas Belzec, to my knowledge, only had one.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3840
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 6:39 am

Jeff_36 wrote:Karski made no mention of any kind of delousing - the critical plank of the denier Unicornville thesis.


Karski also describes the Jews as starving and not having received water in a few days. Not exactly a warm welcome in a "transit camp."

User avatar
BRoI
Poster
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:42 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:41 am

Jeff 36 wrote:Pathetic speculation. Karski made no mention of the place he witnessed being the same location as the Belzec Internment/Labor camp he had seen three years beforehand. In all likelihood he was at Izbica.

Which bit is "pathetic speculation"? My claim that he'd never previously been to Izbica? Do you any proof that he had been to that predominantly Jewish, backwater town? No? So how is it "pathetic" exactly?

It was a interment camp for Jews trying to flee that nazis when Karski saw it; the labour camp wasn't created until 1940. Yet again your lack of knowledge of this topic is exposed.

Karski may not have mentioned the interment camp in his 1944 book but he did describe the masses of Jews trying to flee the Nazis he saw on his mission to Lviv. He said of the large group of Jews that he was smuggled across the border with: "It seemed as if they sensed what the future held in store for them, that soon the pitiless extermination of the Jews would start."


The fact that you cannot fathom the relevance of this is a bit shocking. Karski was in Warsaw, the Warsaw Division of the Home Army had no contact with the Home Army in the District Lublin, Karski would have had no idea where the new camp was and could have easily confused the transit camp he saw with the recently established death camp. The fact that he had been to the site of where the actual death camp was set up three years previously means nothing. It's totally irrelevant.

That fact that you think this absurd proposition has merit and Karski's memorable experience at the exact location 3 years earlier is "totally irrelevant" would be shocking, were it coming from anyone other than you. With you, seeing merit in the absurd and dismissing inconvenient facts is what's expected.

Feb 1940: Karski wrote about what he saw in Belzec [probably at the camp feet from the later death camp]: "I shall never forget it. Never in my life have I beheld anything more frightening."

Sept 1942: Karski had forgotten where he saw it because he went to a completely different place and confused it with the place he was so shaken at less than 3 years earlier [according to Jeff 36]


By his own account he was suffering a nervous breakdown and he was not native to the area. Additionally, his account was written some time later. I have not ruled out exaggeration on his part either.

No mention of a "nervous breakdown" in his 1944 book, but he clearly suffered shock and short bout of PTSD at/after his experience at the "death camp".

I'm not even Polish, but I recognised Belzec when I was driven through it on a coach travelling from Lviv to Lublin even in middle of the night. Like Karski, I had been to Belzec a few years earlier. Unlike Karski, I didn't [ allegedly ] confuse Belzec for Izbica, a town my coach also travelled through on our way up the Expressway S17 to Lublin.

Here' a little visual guide which shows how fallacious your argument is about him not being an immediate native and thereby unfamiliar with the region:
Image
Lodz: Karski's home town; Lviv: where Karski attended university; Volodymyr-Volynsky: where Karski went to military school


And the notion that Karski visited the actual Belzec Death Camp is so fantastically infantile that I cannot help but wonder if you are posting from a care home.

Awahh. Didn't even pretend to make a point, just went for the best sort of insult he could muster now he's deliberately avoiding the psychological projection ones he's renown for.

So if anyone takes him at his word—even with his additional 1987 explanation that he saw Jews being loaded to travel to Sobibor—they're just a loony who should be in a home! Nice ad hom. Jeffrey!


The fact that my argument has sailed over you little head suggests otherwise.

Image


You are incredibly immature.

Nope. I just figured out what your issue is sometime ago. You left many clues in the abuse you've posted about me over the last few years.


Strawman or not, the notion that Karski would have instantly known the location of the Belzec Death Camp just because he had visited an internment camp near it's future site three years earlier is incredibly daft. Do you suggest that he experienced visions? That he was telepathic? I know you put a great deal of stick in his education, but this is a bit much.

Life tip: Try not to muddle "its" and "it's" in the same sentence you accuse someone else of being "incredibly daft".

I won't bother with your reductio ad absurdum re. visions and telepathy; as if anyone needed such things to remember that they'd visited a place just 3 years earlier!


I have to say, this is awfully easy.

Emptying your bowels is easy. Next time flush the results; don't post it on here for us to look at again.
Last edited by BRoI on Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

User avatar
BRoI
Poster
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:42 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:05 am

Jeff_36 wrote:Does this
[...]
Bear any resemblance with Karski's description? Hell no.


In reality, that painting is a very good artistic representation of Karki's description. Sure, he didn't mention the single guard tower, but there's no other obvious discrepancies.

But that painting looks nothing like the plan based on [and presumably agreed to by] Belzec escapee Rudolf Reader's description of the camp.

Image
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

User avatar
BRoI
Poster
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:42 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:35 am

error.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 11195
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 09, 2016 11:18 am

Denying-History wrote:From my understanding the argument goes that he couldn't have visited Izbica because there were no transits in October 1942.
If this were to be true, the first requirement would clearly be that there actually was a transport departing Izbica at around this date. Consultation of standard sources readily confirms that there was not. The lists of transports in Yitzhak Arad’s standard book on the Reinhardt camps contains no transports departing Izbica between May 15 and October 22, 1942.20 A more recent list of all transports to and from Izbica contains some transports missing from Arad’s book, but confirms that no transport departed Izbica at any time even approximating the date of Karski’s visit.

http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/2014/volume_6/number_4/jan_karskis_visit_to_belzec.php#_ednref21

Remind me when Karski was in Bełżec/Izbica/somewhere else. The reason I ask is Jansson's statement about what "standard sources" say regarding transports from Izbica.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
BRoI
Poster
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:42 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:54 pm

D-H wrote:I mean via his first hand account... Aka something like a video testimonial, which from the testimony I have seen he seems stuck with the Estonian uniform... Not a translation as this obviously has lead to the conflicting messages of what he actually wore.

In his first report it was recorded that he was in a Polish Police uniform. And it seems safe to go with this.


I'm curious; what do you think "Aka" means?

What you call "his original" wasn't even written by him. The preface to “Eye-Witness Report of the Annihilation of the Jews of Poland” on p.2 of The Ghetto Speaks , March 1, 1943, states that the article is based on "stenographic notes" taken at a conference supposedly on 02.12.42; supposedly attended by Karski [he's referred to as "Mr. 'X'" in the article], the Polish Minister of the Interior and the Jews Szmul Zygelbojm and Ignacy Schwarzbart.

Karski was ordered by his superiors to change the Ukrainians to Estonians in an ultimately futile attempt not to provoke trouble between the minority communities in Poland [meaning: Jews and ethnic Ukrainians]. To think Karski and his superiors would have said he was wearing a Polish policeman's outfit, thereby inflaming Jewish attitudes worldwide against the Poles, is utterly inconceivable!

Clearly you've not read Michael Fleming's Auschwitz, the Allies and Censorship of the Holocaust [2014] , in which he details the great efforts the Exiled Polish Gov. made to try and win US/UK Jewish support for the post-war Polish cause against the mighty land-grabbing USSR. A cause they knew the British and American governments didn't give two hoots about.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1246
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:08 pm

Denying-History wrote:I really don't understand your position BRoI... Its odd considering he didn't wear any uniform provided to those from the Baltic. He wore a Ukrainian uniform, and Belzec didn't have to many Ukrainians as SM has pointed out.



No Ukrainians guards at Belzec? Can anyone confirm that? :?:

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1246
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:10 pm

Denying-History wrote:
BRoI wrote:
Denying-History wrote:I really don't understand your position BRoI... Its odd considering he didn't wear any uniform provided to those from the Baltic. He wore a Ukrainian uniform, and Belzec didn't have to many Ukrainians as SM has pointed out.


Where does he point that out?


Correction (as you do know my failure when it comes to typing. I meant to say he wore a Estonian uniform, and that Belzec didn't have many Estonians.



Oups...Sorry...

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1529
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Denying-History » Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:13 pm

BRoI wrote:
D-H wrote:I mean via his first hand account... Aka something like a video testimonial, which from the testimony I have seen he seems stuck with the Estonian uniform... Not a translation as this obviously has lead to the conflicting messages of what he actually wore.

In his first report it was recorded that he was in a Polish Police uniform. And it seems safe to go with this.


I'm curious; what do you think "Aka" means?


also known as. I am more then aware of its meaning. I am looking for video testimonial of him saying it.

BRoI wrote:What you call "his original" wasn't even written by him. The preface to “Eye-Witness Report of the Annihilation of the Jews of Poland” on p.2 of The Ghetto Speaks , March 1, 1943, states that the article is based on "stenographic notes" taken at a conference supposedly on 02.12.42; supposedly attended by Karski [he's referred to as "Mr. 'X'" in the article], the Polish Minister of the Interior and the Jews Szmul Zygelbojm and Ignacy Schwarzbart.


I don't remember saying he exactly wrote it, but its one of the earliest records that we have of his uniform.

BRoI wrote:Karski was ordered by his superiors to change the Ukrainians to Estonians in an ultimately futile attempt not to provoke trouble between the minority communities in Poland [meaning: Jews and ethnic Ukrainians]. To think Karski and his superiors would have said he was wearing a Polish policeman's outfit, thereby inflaming Jewish attitudes worldwide against the Poles, is utterly inconceivable!


I'm not denying that this was done... as Alan has pointed out it was "security reasons".

BRoI wrote:Clearly you've not read Michael Fleming's Auschwitz, the Allies and Censorship of the Holocaust [2014] , in which he details the great efforts the Exiled Polish Gov. made to try and win US/UK Jewish support for the post-war Polish cause against the mighty land-grabbing USSR. A cause they knew the British and American governments didn't give two hoots about.


Clearly cause this is a NEW ISSUE to me. Its quite clear he never went to belzec as his testimony doesn't fit in with others. I am looking for visual testimony form him for the time being. Or at least him recanting the uniform he wore. I guess one could call it being nit picky.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

User avatar
BRoI
Poster
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:42 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:25 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Additional info: the statement TDR linked above contrasts Karski's account in 1944: in his original he stated that he took the train to Lublin and arrived in Belzec by dirt road on a hay cart. He describes the camp as being roughly two and a half kilometers away from the village, and located on flat ground, when the actual camp was located less than a kilometer away from Belzec and was situated on partially hilly terrain.

Corrections of the "Additional info":

Lesser-Jeff is talking through his muir cap. He makes 2 false claims and repeats a Mattogno canard that Jansson's already refuted.

In the first account actually written by Karski, i.e. his 1944 book [I'm looking at you D-H]:

- there's no mention of a "train to Lublin and arriv[ing] in Belzec by dirt road on a hay cart" [p.340]
- he doesn't say camp was 2.5km from the village but 1.5m; yeah they're same-ish, but it's not what he wrote in his US-published book ['mericans don't do kilometres] [p.341]

The proof: photos of an original edition:

Image
Image

To be fair to; the first of the claims does appear in the revised 2012 Penguin edition, but Lesser-Jeff obviously didn't read the "Note on the text" forward, if he even has that book.

Jeff_36 wrote:He describes the camp as being [...] located on flat ground, when the actual camp [...] was situated on partially hilly terrain.

Jansson wrote:Carlo Mattogno observes that Karski locates Belzec “on a large, flat plain” while it was in fact on a hillside. But the slope of the hillside at Belzec is really quite insignificant.

Image
Figure 2: Belzec. Despite the slope, it is perfectly plausible that an observer would describe this location as a plain.

In her book Hitler’s Death Camps, Konnilyn Feig describes visiting Belzec, and states that the camp “was located on a barren, flat plain.” While this description may be imprecise, it is not grounds for doubting that she visited the camp. Likewise with Karski.

http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/2014/volume_6/number_4/jan_karskis_visit_to_belzec.php



Jeff_36 wrote:It should be noted however, that he fact checked and confirmed the biography of him by Wood and Jankowski, which is a clear acceptance on his part that he had been to Izbica.

It Is True Because Lesser-Jeff Said So!!!!

Where's the quotes and citations from their book to prove your assertions? Or are you just relying on the quote Jansson features?
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1246
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:30 pm

Ok, i admit that my knowledge on those things are quite weak...And i have not follow this discussion with much attention.
So forgive me, but i have just one question.

as far as i know, Izbica was not an camp but a ghetto used as a transfer center. How can a city be confused with a camp made of newly built barracks in the first place?
I mean you can confuse two camps, but not a camp with a Ghetto, can you?

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1529
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Denying-History » Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:45 pm

Balsamo wrote:Ok, i admit that my knowledge on those things are quite weak...And i have not follow this discussion with much attention.
So forgive me, but i have just one question.

as far as i know, Izbica was not an camp but a ghetto used as a transfer center. How can a city be confused with a camp made of newly built barracks in the first place?
I mean you can confuse two camps, but not a camp with a Ghetto, can you?


To my understanding the Transit center wasn't located within the city, it was probably outside the city center.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1246
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:46 pm

also known as. I am more then aware of its meaning. I am looking for video testimonial of him saying it.


You mean something like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aax3pgdLJ5E

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1529
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Denying-History » Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:47 pm

BRoI wrote:In the first account actually written by Karski, i.e. his 1944 book [I'm looking at you D-H]:

- there's no mention of a "train to Lublin and arriv[ing] in Belzec by dirt road on a hay cart" [p.340]
- he doesn't say camp was 2.5km from the village but 1.5m; yeah they're same-ish, but it's not what he wrote in his US-published book ['mericans don't do kilometres] [p.341]


1) I never claimed the following so I am confused as to they are causing you to look at me.

2) I have yet to make any claims about the distance from the camp.

3) My arguments are simple

3a) The first uniform described for him was a polish police officer, something which he wouldn't be able to enter belzec in.

3b) His description doesn't match any eyewitness description that I have read.

The camp was on a plain, surrounded by barbed wire. It was watched over by a large number of armed guards. Meanwhile, outside, one patrol followed another at a distance of fifty yards. There were cries, gunshots, and a terrible stench. The area between the buildings was covered by 'a dense, pulsating, throbbing, noisy human mass'-'insane human beings in constant. agitated motion', as Jan karski writes. To the left of the enterance. there was a railway track of rather a 'raised passage', as he specifies. An old freight train of about thirty wagons was stationary. 'Thats's the train they'll load them on,' said the guard.


(The Messenger, Yannick Haenel, Page )

The entire camp occupied a relatively small, almost square area. Three sides measured 275 m; the fourth, south side measured 265 m. The outer fence was camouflaged with tree branches. During the later reorganisation of the camp, the space between the two fences was filled with rolls of barbed wire. On the east side, another barrier was erected on a steep slope by the fixing of tree trunks to wooden planks. During the second phase of the camp's existence, a wooden fence was built along the side of the road at the foot of the steep eastern slope.

Four watchtowers were constructed: on the northeast and northwest sides, at the southwest corner and at the most westerly point of the camp. A fifth tower in the centre of the camp overlooked the entire length of "the Sluice" (also known as "the Tube"), the camouflaged barbed wire pathway to the gas chambers.

Belzec was divided into two sections:
Camp I, in the northern and western section, was the reception area and included the railway ramp, which could initially accommodate 10-15 wagons.

Camp II, the extermination area, included the gas chambers and large rectangular burial pits. The pits had an average size of 20 m x 30 m x 6 m deep. These mass graves were located at the northeast, east and southerly sections of the camp.


(JeffK, First post)

3c) He claims to have marched to the camp, which can be found under the IH link. This means he most likely didn't enter Belzec.

Edit: Fixing a few errors and adding Context.
Last edited by Denying-History on Sun Oct 09, 2016 6:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

User avatar
BRoI
Poster
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:42 pm

Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:51 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urA7XZVeg-I
Karski's filmed at Izbica in 1995 in this video @ 1:20
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.


Return to “Holocaust Denial”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest