Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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BRoI
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:21 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
BRoI wrote:Yet references to homosexual men! What is your issue with homosexual men? I remember you having comments deleted on HC which included references to homosexual men, and you were told by HC not to post homophobic things on their blog.

I call it as I see it. Your myriad insecurities and comically thin skin point to some kind of repressed personal strife. :lol:

Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against their own unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others

Keep your homophobic insults coming, Jeff, keep 'em coming. ;)

Like I said, I will try to get in touch with friend of mine who is the son of Polish immigrants and speaks the language fluently. It may take a few days or a week as I have not spoken to him in some time and will have to break the ice first.

I'll see if I can find a longer version of it, I'm sure I saw additional footage in some Polish video. If I can I'll post it on here 7 or 8 times; maybe you'll notice it, probably you won't.

Jeff_36 wrote:What will your reaction be if it turns out that the video shows exactly what Panne stated?

I'll be unsurprised. He's gesticulating in the footage as if he's pointing to where he saw things, plus several people have claimed he did eventually admit he was there, but none of them bothered documenting it properly.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:28 am

BRoI wrote:Keep your homophobic insults coming, Jeff, keep 'em coming. ;)


I can't help it, It was the fault of my keyboard :lol:

I'll be unsurprised. He's gesticulating in the footage as if he's pointing to where he saw things, plus several people have claimed he did eventually admit he was there, but none of them bothered documenting it properly.


So all this masturbatory nonsense on your part is essentially your documentation fetish at work? What exactly are you trying to prove about Karski anyway?

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Denying-History » Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:33 am

I don't think he is really trying to prove anything about Karski. I think rabbit is viewing your arguments as a distortion.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:36 am

I have to say, what you think makes you look clever in all actuality makes you look infantile at best and deceptive at worst. You sat on information that you knew contrasted your thesis.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:36 am

Denying-History wrote:I don't think he is really trying to prove anything about Karski. I think rabbit is viewing your arguments as a distortion.


Well I think his arguments are selective, dishonest, and misleading, as well as inaccurate.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:48 am

This has been a very good thread for me. I used to argue with David, the holocaust denier, on these issues, but only lightly. It is good and most interesting to see in depth research.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:59 am

I just checked in - I do hope (ahem Jeff, as you know I do) that we can lose the stuff about masturbation/sexuality/etc. It's wrong, and also it might bring Pyrrho into things.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:40 am

Tis rather obvious to me that the conditions described in Karski's 1940 report on the Internment camp in Belzec match his 1944 report in more ways than one.

In the both reports Karski hitched a ride on a peasant cart to Belzec from another village.

In both reports Karski made mention of being shown around by a guide

In both reports Karski made mention of Jews suffering from exposure

In both reports Karski made mention of being scarred and shocked by what he had seen, with similar sentiments of "never will I forget..."

In both reports Karski described the crowd as agitated and in constant motion.

It is a possibility that Karski's 1944 account was essentially a redux of his 1940 one, transplanted into a different situation.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Darren Wilshak » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:20 pm

For what it is worth, I decided to have a crack at a transcription of the Karski 1993 radio broadcast. Because some people just prefer text. First some observations. At no point in the interview did Prof Karski mention, Reinhard, Belzec, or the Izbica transit camp issue. So that makes it pretty useless in this debate. IMHO the second witness issue fails the Karski submission. It would be interesting to examine the professor’s papers however. In my opinion he was certainly somewhere connected to the “deportations.”

I have transcribed the interview as I have heard it. The flavour overall is that of an Eastern European speaker. I found only two examples that were impossible for me to transcribe. You will find them in italics and brackets and with question marks. I would welcome the inevitable correction that must surely follow. The 1993 interview is of its time.

Know what? Already we are nearly seventeen years into the next century!

Source:

Downloadable .mp3.

Available on

http://www.jankarski.net/en/about-jan-k ... arski.html

………………………………………………………..

Interview conducted by Phillip Adams. (PA:). Interviewing Professor Jan Karski. (JK:).

PA: How to introduce my next guest, well I’m going to spend a little bit of time on the introduction because he’s such an extraordinary man. He grew up in the relatively Anti-Semitic atmosphere of Poland in the twenties and thirties. The child of a devout and necessarily large Catholic family. He became friendly with the Jewish kids he met at school. Pre to the Second World War, he gained a double Masters Degree in Law and Diplomacy, joining the Polish Diplomatic Corps just prior to the outbreak of War. 1939 was of course the time of the Nazi-Soviet pact. When the Russians invaded Poland, he was captured but escaped via Warsaw to the Polish Government in exile and the Polish Underground in Paris. Over the next two years he worked as a courier for the Underground, passing back and forth across occupied Europe. In 1940 captured in Slovakia by the Gestapo, very nearly tortured to death, he survived. Just. But then on information gathering in Poland in ’42 it was suggested by Polish Jewish Underground members that he see first hand what was happening in the Warsaw ghett- (falters) ghetto and in Belzec deathcamp. And even following his experiences with the Gestapo in an act of foolish heroism, he agreed and was successfully smuggled in and out then travelling to the West, with the awful first-hand experiences, to tell to the Brits and the Americans.

Ladies and Gentlemen, let me introduce you to Emeritus Professor, Jan Karski. The County of Georgetown University in Washington D.C. and the author of,

“Story of a Secret State and the great powers and Poland.”

PA: Ah Professor Karski, you are now a man of what, 78, 80 years of age?

JK: I’m 79.

PA: 79, well! For almost forty years you remained silent on your war-time experiences. For forty years you did not talk about it. What silenced you?

JK: Well as very many other people, thousands and thousands of Jews, survivors, we wanted to forget it, the past and to have a decent normal life. To build up new lives. In whatever environment the fate placed us. To forget it. Dirt, misery. Humiliation. We became respected by our neighbours, we found a home. And we wanted to stay.

PA: Mmm. Now after all that time you’ve returned to retell the story, we’ve had a lot of programmes this year on memory on the nature of memory and how we re-invent things and change the past in our minds. To what extent do your memories of that time differ, from the accounts you wrote at the time?

JK: You mean my memory?

PA: Mmm.

JK: Very many things of course I forget. Some, probably important events, conversations, individuals… I remember as if they occurred yesterday.

PA: So time doesn’t exist for key memories?

JK: Time doesn’t exist. But I don’t come back willingly. But sometime, people invite me to speak. They always use the argument which is very difficult for me to.. er, refute, mainly I am an educator.

PA: Mmm.

JK: They are using continuously this argument,

“You are an educator.” “It is your duty to speak…to make people understand this.”

So I go.

PA: The first people you had to make understand what you had witnessed in Warsaw were in fact Anthony Eden and Franklin Roosevelt. You had to tell Anthony Eden and Franklin Roosevelt what was happening in Europe.

JK: Yes. Well as far as Mr. Eden was concerned, first. I was his admirer. Before the war as you remember he was against Chamberlain’s policy of appeasement and together with Churchill, (?sounds like Nicolson?) and other leaders. He was for more aggressive policy against Hitler and Hitlerite expansion. I told him so. He was very kind to me. When I made my initial opening, describing the structure of the Polish Underground Movement. Underground Press, military organization, Nazi methods of operations. Self defence. Then I came to the Jewish part, mainly, two Jewish leaders of the Jewish Underground. Acting both outside of ghetto and as a matter of fact, in the ghetto itself. They gave me messages. Messages to convey to those allied leaders whom I would be able to reach of course in Warsaw which they didn’t know. This happened in at by the end of September, beginning of October, 1942. Those messages were to, make it understandable…to western leaders.

“The Jews are totally helpless. They have no country of their own, they have no army. They cannot rely on the Polish nation, the Polish Underground. Because they are oppressed themselves, they can save some individuals but they cannot stop the destruction of the Jews, only powerful allied Government, governments can be of help.”

Now, I, they asked me to convey several demands. I did do it. Are you interested what the demands, they were?

PA: Mmm.

JK: The first one it seemed to me at that time the most important.

"Let the Allied leaders announce publicly that stopping destruction of the Jews became a part of the Allied war strategy."

PA: Mmm.

JK: The answer was that this is impossible. Why? It might antagonise other nations. Why only the Jews? What the French would say? The Belgians? The Dutch? What the Poles would say? Or the Russians?

PA: So it was a message that nobody wanted to hear.

JK: Yes. (?Particularly?) The Russians, what would be the reaction of the Russians? Secondly, the Allied war strategy has already been decided at that time. Military defeat of Germany. Destruction of German war potential. Unconditional surrender. Terminating the war as fast as possible. Close collaboration with the Russians. With the Soviet Union. Any other issue was not supposed to interfere in those, that basic strategy. The tragedy of the Jews was that the Jewish strategy, Gehenna, it was known to the Allied leaders. It was embarrassing, it was painful.

PA: Already known?

JK: I am sure of it, already known but it still…it was never more than a side issue.

PA: I wonder, this is a very important thing for us to understand. When do you believe, when do you believe that the Americans knew for example?

JK: This, I cannot tell you, you know…with sense of reality, I don’t know.

PA: But you have, you must suspect.

JK: I can only tell this, at that time, well the Jewish Congress tried its best to inform the leaders in London and in Washington. D.C. The head was a certain (?a whom Gorgman?) Secondly, allied countries. Great Britain and the United States had their own agents. All over Europe. From the United States. Allen Dulles by the way said at that time in Switzerland, certainly. He knew what was happening.

PA: And yet when you came to the West with your story, with your appalling account of what was going on, you were still greeted in some quarters with disbelief. Was this a determined disbelief or simply …In other words, was this a refusal to believe something that was politically embarrassing?

JK: I understand your question and my answer is, for sure, I don’t know. With "some" individuals, I think that they were unable, really unable to conceive that this kind of things could happen. They were educated people, most of them from good families. Good normal environment. In Great Britain, several of them from the highest aristocracy. What I was telling them, I suspected it at that time, that some of them received it as a sort of an exaggerated, anti-Nazi, propaganda.

PA: Mmm.

JK: But perhaps I was wrong.

(Approx ten minutes into the interview)

PA: I want to go back to your own story, I find it extraordinary as anyone must that not two years after you were captured and tortured by the Gestapo, you were willing to turn around and go back.

JK: Yes it was my duty, I saw too many things during the war. I decided to serve as a courier, I was well qualified for that job, I knew languages at that time. French, German, English, fluently. I knew Europe, I visited for longer period of times, Germany, Rumania, Switzerland, France, Great Britain. And I had very good memory. I had qualifications and I wanted to use my qualifications.

PA: I find one of the most interesting things you’ve said is your description of what happened in Germany in the thirties and forties as, quote:

“A collective nervous breakdown.”

We see a lot of collective nervous breakdowns now. How can these be prevented?

JK: How can we prevent it? I don’t know. The only comment I would like to offer. We shouldn’t compare it. Madness of entire societies today like Bosnia-Herzegovina. Or Ethiopia, or Cambodia. Atrocities, we shouldn’t compare it with what became known as a, "Holocaust." Holocaust is something unique.

PA: (interrupting) In other words, the system. The systematic destruction of people.

JK: Of the entire nation.

PA: Yeah.

JK: The entire group. Scientifically planned by government.

PA: I couldn’t agree more. It’s a fundamental difference.

JK: Yes. This is the…It cannot be compared. So now, my impression is humanity did not change so much. Probably humanity did improve, after all, we are improving in time. Education, proper systems of government does help. But, essentially it takes, a long, long time. Humanity still, is still ready to commit atrocities like those countries we mentioned. However, Holocaust, here I am (you can call it optimistic,) Holocaust will not happen again. "Holocaust," by Holocaust I understand what happened to the Jews. Now this kind of event will not take place. Not because humanity did change. Because today Jews are not helpless. Today they have Israel. For me this is the most important event in two thousand years of the Jewish history.

PA: Its important to have broken your, your forty year silence because we now live in a time when a new generation, perhaps a couple, can start denying the reality of Holocaust. It is my sad duty to often receive material from the so-called, "Historical Revisionists" who deny the legitimacy of Holocaust. What is… How do you cope with this pornographic nonsense when people say it didn’t happen?

JK: It makes me, nervous. Heh.. Various quarters I am asked:

“Karski, what would you do? “

My answer is, I don’t know what one should do. This kind of people, first, it is possible that they are in simple medical term, crazy. Well I don’t know how to argue with crazy people. Secondly, they are ill, they maybe ill-willed. Well I will not help. The arguments will not help them.

PA: Mmm.

JK: They are fanatical. Well we have many groups today, who maintained that,

“The Earth is the centre of Universe!”

Well how can you argue with this kind of thing?

PA: (Interrupting) Those of Flat Earth. Or it was created 6,000 years ago. Sure. Yeah.

JK: Yes, how can you argue with this kind of thing?

PA: It is difficult, isn’t it? Yeah.

JK: My reaction is. These kind of people, should be rather ignored. And the answer is not arguing with them. We will not convince them, we will not change them. But, more books, more evidence, more documents, more museums. Describing what actually happened. There is so much material already that not to believe it? To my mind is, er, craziness.

PA: I remember when um, (well I don’t remember but I remember looking at films about the era,) that when the Nuremburg trials were about to open, the various Nazis who were charged with war crimes had been given psychiatric tests and they were found to be not insane but sane. That is another part of the quantitative and qualitative difference, is it not, between Holocaust and other sad moments of human history?

JK: Yes.

PA: (Continuing) That people who were, ostensibly rational, went about the destruction of another race of human beings rationally. I raise this because you were talking about the Holocaust (correcting himself) the Historical Revisionists, being insane perhaps. (Gently) I’m not sure that that necessarily follows…

JK: They are either insane, or ill-will. Such phenomenon as anti-Semitism is still existent. Naturally, it exists in many societies. What motivates it? Probably, you know in some cases, racism. The Arab world and we know of course what is happening over there. In some cases, pure jealousy. One of the point of anti-Semitism, (I know it from my own observations,) is not even racism. Is not even anti Semitism, per se. It is pure jealousy. So many Jews achieve prominence. Jews value so much family bonds. They educate children, they pay so much attention to…

PA: (Interrupting). Yes, Education is central to the culture.

JK: …To, learning. They have so many Nobel prizes…

PA: A disproportionate contribution to World culture from one or two percent of the population.

JK: Yes, they have so much, throughout all history, in sciences, Medicine, Drama, Music, Literature, painting, composition and to me…It seems to me that for me for many people it is pure realisation of their own inferiority. They are not on the same level. So they resent it.

PA: (Interrupting) What an interesting sort of analysis. You were of course raised a Roman Catholic, the Roman Catholic church did not cover itself in glory on the issue of Holocaust, did it?

JK: Well Sir. It is not my role to denounce my church. What I can say as far as I know it. Church hierachies, not only the Catholic church, of almost all Christian churches did abandon the Jews. However…

PA: Not just the Vatican, everybody?

JK: But however, there were thousands and thousands of simple priests, nuns, who were helping. We have evidence. They are honoured by Yad Vashem.

PA: Sure and some went to the gas chamber.

JK: Yes. The same with other segments of society. Governments. They abandoned the Jews but again there were thousands upon thousands of individuals. Again in France, Belgium, Holland, Poland, Greece who were helping the Jews. In Jerusalem you have over ten thousand so-called, Righteous Gentiles. I have no slightest doubt there are many, many, more thousands. The point is, as I see it. The Jews were abandoned by governments, organisations, church hierarchies, societal structures. They were not abandoned by all Humanity. And this to my mind the Jews should remember.

PA: I find it, moving that you can actually use the term, “humanity” with warmth, given the scale of horror that we have witnessed in the century.

JK: Yes you can use the word “humanity” because humanity is the most proper in the context of our conversation.

PA: Hmmm. Do you still feel. I mean we could, we’re running out of time but I have just been trooping around Europe from what was the Soviet Union and into France and everywhere I went I saw Anti-semitism on the rise again. As though none of the lessons of Holocaust had been learned.

JK: No, I don’t think that Anti-Semitism is becoming a very serious issue. However, it will continue, for the reasons I indicated. Take under consideration, most of the governments, all of Christian churches, condemned the Anti-Semitism as sin. Catholic church, officially. Second Vatican Council:

“Anti-Semitism is a sin.”

Protestant churches, Lutheran churches rejected Luther’s anti-Semitic outbursts. So other churches, over all the majority of the world public opinion. Mass media, condemned Anti-Semitism. I think that Anti-Semitism as of now, is rather a marginal issue, however it will continue for those people who are jealous, who are inferior. They will still continue to live and speak.

PA: I should point out that Professor Karski’s Australian tour was supported by both the Jewish and the Polish communities. I thank you very much for joining us. Professor Karski is Emeritus Professor of the Georgetown University in Washington D.C.

End of transcription

........................................................................

Interviewed first broadcast December 21st. 1993. on the Australian ABC Radio National.
Last edited by Darren Wilshak on Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:24 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:For what it is worth, I decided to have a crack at a transcription of the Karski 1993 radio broadcast. Because some people just prefer text.

LOL I know one of those folks.

Nice to see you back here, Darren.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Darren Wilshak » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:50 pm

Thank you, SM.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:17 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:For what it is worth, I decided to have a crack at a transcription of the Karski 1993 radio broadcast. Because some people just prefer text. First some observations. At no point in the interview did Prof Karski mention, Reinhard, Belzec, or the Izbica transit camp issue. So that makes it pretty useless in this debate. IMHO the second witness issue fails the Karski submission. It would be interesting to examine the professor’s papers however. In my opinion he was certainly somewhere connected to the “deportations.”

I have transcribed the interview as I have heard it. The flavour overall is that of an Eastern European speaker. I found only two examples that were impossible for me to transcribe. You will find them in italics and brackets and with question marks. I would welcome the inevitable correction that must surely follow. The 1993 interview is of its time.

Know what? Already we are nearly seventeen years into the next century!

Source:

Downloadable .mp3.

Available on

http://www.jankarski.net/en/about-jan-k ... arski.html

………………………………………………………..

Interview conducted by Phillip Adams. (PA:). Interviewing Professor Jan Karski. (JK:).

PA: How to introduce my next guest, well I’m going to spend a little bit of time on the introduction because he’s such an extraordinary man. He grew up in the relatively Anti-Semitic atmosphere of Poland in the twenties and thirties. The child of a devout and necessarily large Catholic family. He became friendly with the Jewish kids he met at school. Pre to the Second World War, he gained a double Masters Degree in Law and Diplomacy, joining the Polish Diplomatic Corps just prior to the outbreak of War. 1939 was of course the time of the Nazi-Soviet pact. When the Russians invaded Poland, he was captured but escaped via Warsaw to the Polish Government in exile and the Polish Underground in Paris. Over the next two years he worked as a courier for the Underground, passing back and forth across occupied Europe. In 1940 captured in Slovakia by the Gestapo, very nearly tortured to death, he survived. Just. But then on information gathering in Poland in ’42 it was suggested by Polish Jewish Underground members that he see first hand what was happening in the Warsaw ghett- (falters) ghetto and in Belzec deathcamp. And even following his experiences with the Gestapo in an act of foolish heroism, he agreed and was successfully smuggled in and out then travelling to the West, with the awful first-hand experiences, to tell to the Brits and the Americans.

Ladies and Gentlemen, let me introduce you to Emeritus Professor, Jan Karski. The County of Georgetown University in Washington D.C. and the author of,

“Story of a Secret State and the great powers and Poland.”

PA: Ah Professor Karski, you are now a man of what, 78, 80 years of age?

JK: I’m 79.

PA: 79, well! For almost forty years you remained silent on your war-time experiences. For forty years you did not talk about it. What silenced you?

JK: Well as very many other people, thousands and thousands of Jews, survivors, we wanted to forget it, the past and to have a decent normal life. To build up new lives. In whatever environment the fate placed us. To forget it. Dirt, misery. Humiliation. We became respected by our neighbours, we found a home. And we wanted to stay.

PA: Mmm. Now after all that time you’ve returned to retell the story, we’ve had a lot of programmes this year on memory on the nature of memory and how we re-invent things and change the past in our minds. To what extent do your memories of that time differ, from the accounts you wrote at the time?

JK: You mean my memory?

PA: Mmm.

JK: Very many things of course I forget. Some, probably important events, conversations, individuals… I remember as if they occurred yesterday.

PA: So time doesn’t exist for key memories?

JK: Time doesn’t exist. But I don’t come back willingly. But sometime, people invite me to speak. They always use the argument which is very difficult for me to.. er, refute, mainly I am an educator.

PA: Mmm.

JK: They are using continuously this argument,

“You are an educator.” “It is your duty to speak…to make people understand this.”

So I go.

PA: The first people you had to make understand what you had witnessed in Warsaw were in fact Anthony Eden and Franklin Roosevelt. You had to tell Anthony Eden and Franklin Roosevelt what was happening in Europe.

JK: Yes. Well as far as Mr. Eden was concerned, first. I was his admirer. Before the war as you remember he was against Chamberlain’s policy of appeasement and together with Churchill, (?sounds like Nicolson?) and other leaders. He was for more aggressive policy against Hitler and Hitlerite expansion. I told him so. He was very kind to me. When I made my initial opening, describing the structure of the Polish Underground Movement. Underground Press, military organization, Nazi methods of operations. Self defence. Then I came to the Jewish part, mainly, two Jewish leaders of the Jewish Underground. Acting both outside of ghetto and as a matter of fact, in the ghetto itself. They gave me messages. Messages to convey to those allied leaders whom I would be able to reach of course in Warsaw which they didn’t know. This happened in at by the end of September, beginning of October, 1942. Those messages were to, make it understandable…to western leaders.

“The Jews are totally helpless. They have no country of their own, they have no army. They cannot rely on the Polish nation, the Polish Underground. Because they are oppressed themselves, they can save some individuals but they cannot stop the destruction of the Jews, only powerful allied Government, governments can be of help.”

Now, I, they asked me to convey several demands. I did do it. Are you interested what the demands, they were?

PA: Mmm.

JK: The first one it seemed to me at that time the most important.

"Let the Allied leaders announce publicly that stopping destruction of the Jews became a part of the Allied war strategy."

PA: Mmm.

JK: The answer was that this is impossible. Why? It might antagonise other nations. Why only the Jews? What the French would say? The Belgians? The Dutch? What the Poles would say? Or the Russians?

PA: So it was a message that nobody wanted to hear.

JK: Yes. (?Particularly?) The Russians, what would be the reaction of the Russians? Secondly, the Allied war strategy has already been decided at that time. Military defeat of Germany. Destruction of German war potential. Unconditional surrender. Terminating the war as fast as possible. Close collaboration with the Russians. With the Soviet Union. Any other issue was not supposed to interfere in those, that basic strategy. The tragedy of the Jews was that the Jewish strategy, Gehenna, it was known to the Allied leaders. It was embarrassing, it was painful.

PA: Already known?

JK: I am sure of it, already known but it still…it was never more than a side issue.

PA: I wonder, this is a very important thing for us to understand. When do you believe, when do you believe that the Americans knew for example?

JK: This, I cannot tell you, you know…with sense of reality, I don’t know.

PA: But you have, you must suspect.

JK: I can only tell this, at that time, well the Jewish Congress tried its best to inform the leaders in London and in Washington. D.C. The head was a certain (?a whom Gorgman?) Secondly, allied countries. Great Britain and the United States had their own agents. All over Europe. From the United States. Allen Dulles by the way said at that time in Switzerland, certainly. He knew what was happening.

PA: And yet when you came to the West with your story, with your appalling account of what was going on, you were still greeted in some quarters with disbelief. Was this a determined disbelief or simply …In other words, was this a refusal to believe something that was politically embarrassing?

JK: I understand your question and my answer is, for sure, I don’t know. With "some" individuals, I think that they were unable, really unable to conceive that this kind of things could happen. They were educated people, most of them from good families. Good normal environment. In Great Britain, several of them from the highest aristocracy. What I was telling them, I suspected it at that time, that some of them received it as a sort of an exaggerated, anti-Nazi, propaganda.

PA: Mmm.

JK: But perhaps I was wrong.

(Approx ten minutes into the interview)

PA: I want to go back to your own story, I find it extraordinary as anyone must that not two years after you were captured and tortured by the Gestapo, you were willing to turn around and go back.

JK: Yes it was my duty, I saw too many things during the war. I decided to serve as a courier, I was well qualified for that job, I knew languages at that time. French, German, English, fluently. I knew Europe, I visited for longer period of times, Germany, Rumania, Switzerland, France, Great Britain. And I had very good memory. I had qualifications and I wanted to use my qualifications.

PA: I find one of the most interesting things you’ve said is your description of what happened in Germany in the thirties and forties as, quote:

“A collective nervous breakdown.”

We see a lot of collective nervous breakdowns now. How can these be prevented?

JK: How can we prevent it? I don’t know. The only comment I would like to offer. We shouldn’t compare it. Madness of entire societies today like Bosnia-Herzegovina. Or Ethiopia, or Cambodia. Atrocities, we shouldn’t compare it with what became known as a, "Holocaust." Holocaust is something unique.

PA: (interrupting) In other words, the system. The systematic destruction of people.

JK: Of the entire nation.

PA: Yeah.

JK: The entire group. Scientifically planned by government.

PA: I couldn’t agree more. It’s a fundamental difference.

JK: Yes. This is the…It cannot be compared. So now, my impression is humanity did not change so much. Probably humanity did improve, after all, we are improving in time. Education, proper systems of government does help. But, essentially it takes, a long, long time. Humanity still, is still ready to commit atrocities like those countries we mentioned. However, Holocaust, here I am (you can call it optimistic,) Holocaust will not happen again. "Holocaust," by Holocaust I understand what happened to the Jews. Now this kind of event will not take place. Not because humanity did change. Because today Jews are not helpless. Today they have Israel. For me this is the most important event in two thousand years of the Jewish history.

PA: Its important to have broken your, your forty year silence because we now live in a time when a new generation, perhaps a couple, can start denying the reality of Holocaust. It is my sad duty to often receive material from the so-called, "Historical Revisionists" who deny the legitimacy of Holocaust. What is… How do you cope with this pornographic nonsense when people say it didn’t happen?

JK: It makes me, nervous. Heh.. Various quarters I am asked:

“Karski, what would you do? “

My answer is, I don’t know what one should do. This kind of people, first, it is possible that they are in simple medical term, crazy. Well I don’t know how to argue with crazy people. Secondly, they are ill, they maybe ill-willed. Well I will not help. The arguments will not help them.

PA: Mmm.

JK: They are fanatical. Well we have many groups today, who maintained that,

“The Earth is the centre of Universe!”

Well how can you argue with this kind of thing?

PA: (Interrupting) Those of Flat Earth. Or it was created 6,000 years ago. Sure. Yeah.

JK: Yes, how can you argue with this kind of thing?

PA: It is difficult, isn’t it? Yeah.

JK: My reaction is. These kind of people, should be rather ignored. And the answer is not arguing with them. We will not convince them, we will not change them. But, more books, more evidence, more documents, more museums. Describing what actually happened. There is so much material already that not to believe it? To my mind is, er, craziness.

PA: I remember when um, (well I don’t remember but I remember looking at films about the era,) that when the Nuremburg trials were about to open, the various Nazis who were charged with war crimes had been given psychiatric tests and they were found to be not insane but sane. That is another part of the quantitative and qualitative difference, is it not, between Holocaust and other sad moments of human history?

JK: Yes.

PA: (Continuing) That people who were, ostensibly rational, went about the destruction of another race of human beings rationally. I raise this because you were talking about the Holocaust (correcting himself) the Historical Revisionists, being insane perhaps. (Gently) I’m not sure that that necessarily follows…

JK: They are either insane, or ill-will. Such phenomenon as anti-Semitism is still existent. Naturally, it exists in many societies. What motivates it? Probably, you know in some cases, racism. The Arab world and we know of course what is happening over there. In some cases, pure jealousy. One of the point of anti-Semitism, (I know it from my own observations,) is not even racism. Is not even anti Semitism, per se. It is pure jealousy. So many Jews achieve prominence. Jews value so much family bonds. They educate children, they pay so much attention to…

PA: (Interrupting). Yes, Education is central to the culture.

JK: …To, learning. They have so many Nobel prizes…

PA: A disproportionate contribution to World culture from one or two percent of the population.

JK: Yes, they have so much, throughout all history, in sciences, Medicine, Drama, Music, Literature, painting, composition and to me…It seems to me that for me for many people it is pure realisation of their own inferiority. They are not on the same level. So they resent it.

PA: (Interrupting) What an interesting sort of analysis. You were of course raised a Roman Catholic, the Roman Catholic church did not cover itself in glory on the issue of Holocaust, did it?

JK: Well Sir. It is not my role to denounce my church. What I can say as far as I know it. Church hierachies, not only the Catholic church, of almost all Christian churches did abandon the Jews. However…

PA: Not just the Vatican, everybody?

JK: But however, there were thousands and thousands of simple priests, nuns, who were helping. We have evidence. They are honoured by Yad Vashem.

PA: Sure and some went to the gas chamber.

JK: Yes. The same with other segments of society. Governments. They abandoned the Jews but again there were thousands upon thousands of individuals. Again in France, Belgium, Holland, Poland, Greece who were helping the Jews. In Jerusalem you have over ten thousand so-called, Righteous Gentiles. I have no slightest doubt there are many, many, more thousands. The point is, as I see it. The Jews were abandoned by governments, organisations, church hierarchies, societal structures. They were not abandoned by all Humanity. And this to my mind the Jews should remember.

PA: I find it, moving that you can actually use the term, “humanity” with warmth, given the scale of horror that we have witnessed in the century.

JK: Yes you can use the word “humanity” because humanity is the most proper in the context of our conversation.

PA: Hmmm. Do you still feel. I mean we could, we’re running out of time but I have just been trooping around Europe from what was the Soviet Union and into France and everywhere I went I saw Anti-semitism on the rise again. As though none of the lessons of Holocaust had been learned.

JK: No, I don’t think that Anti-Semitism is becoming a very serious issue. However, it will continue, for the reasons I indicated. Take under consideration, most of the governments, all of Christian churches, condemned the Anti-Semitism as sin. Catholic church, officially. Second Vatican Council:

“Anti-Semitism is a sin.”

Protestant churches, Lutheran churches rejected Luther’s anti-Semitic outbursts. So other churches, over all the majority of the world public opinion. Mass media, condemned Anti-Semitism. I think that Anti-Semitism as of now, is rather a marginal issue, however it will continue for those people who are jealous, who are inferior. They will still continue to live and speak.

PA: I should point out that Professor Karski’s Australian tour was supported by both the Jewish and the Polish communities. I thank you very much for joining us. Professor Karski is Emeritus Professor of the Georgetown University in Washington D.C.

End of transcription

........................................................................

Interviewed first broadcast December 21st. 1993. on the Australian ABC Radio National.


Thanks, Darren.
I was going to listen this morning on my way to work but you did the heavy lifting.


I've been trying to translate the YouTube video, there's a way to do it, but I can't get it to work. Hopefully Jeff can get the Polish speaker to give him a hand.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Darren Wilshak » Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:27 pm

No problem, intriguing to think that this had never been transcribed. I mean you could get a computer to do it but there is no bar code or SKU...

:lol:

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:33 pm

As to the YouTube, I am told by a person who has Polish language but is not perfect in Polish, that Karski does not seem specifically to mention Izbica. What I understood from my colleague is that Karski, standing at the railway collection spot at Izbica, says that he went into a "camp" and gives a brief description of it. So Karski seems to point to physical places while at the Izbica station and to describe things from the "camp" (e.g. armed guards) as he points.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Oct 12, 2016 2:18 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:As to the YouTube, I am told by a person who has Polish language but is not perfect in Polish, that Karski does not seem specifically to mention Izbica. What I understood from my colleague is that Karski, standing at the railway collection spot at Izbica, says that he went into a "camp" and gives a brief description of it. So Karski seems to point to physical places while at the Izbica station and to describe things from the "camp" (e.g. armed guards) as he points.


Well, that seals it for me. If he was at Izbica and pointed out details there then that ends the debate, for me at least.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Denying-History » Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:33 pm

Eh, I think I would need more reading on the site before I conclude anything. I don't exactly agree with Jeffs methods here but I agree that the first report could be accurate as an original statement.

I think yad vashem may be skeptical of the idea about Karski going to Izbica, as they only clarify he went to a camp in the Lublin area.

With great risk to his life, he was smuggled into the Warsaw ghetto and into a camp in the Lublin area. The horrors he witnessed marked him deeply and propelled him to become not only the messenger of the Polish underground, but to concentrate on giving voice to the suffering of the dying Jews.
Last edited by Denying-History on Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:37 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:As to the YouTube, I am told by a person who has Polish language but is not perfect in Polish, that Karski does not seem specifically to mention Izbica. What I understood from my colleague is that Karski, standing at the railway collection spot at Izbica, says that he went into a "camp" and gives a brief description of it. So Karski seems to point to physical places while at the Izbica station and to describe things from the "camp" (e.g. armed guards) as he points.


That is good enough in all honesty. He identifies his current location as the location he was present in in 1942, not explicitly, but his pointing to spots and giving the layout of the camp is more than sufficient to reach a conclusion. The claim that Karski described Belzec as the location until his death, "from his first interview to his last" is now crushed by the Twatting Hammer, along with its claimant.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:01 pm

Denying-History wrote:Eh, I think I would need more reading on the site before I conclude anything. I don't exactly agree with Jeffs methods here but I agree that the first report could be accurate as an original statement.

This I think yad vashem may be skeptical of the idea about Karski going to Izbica, as they only clarify he went to a camp in the Lublin area.

With great risk to his life, he was smuggled into the Warsaw ghetto and into a camp in the Lublin area. The horrors he witnessed marked him deeply and propelled him to become not only the messenger of the Polish underground, but to concentrate on giving voice to the suffering of the dying Jews.



I'm not sure what else can be found on this. I tried to track BROI's footnote (and mine) about the Diane Glazer program in 1995, I can't find it so if anyone else has any luck post it on this thread.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Balsamo » Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:57 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:No problem, intriguing to think that this had never been transcribed. I mean you could get a computer to do it but there is no bar code or SKU...

:lol:



It seems to be a shortened version of the interview he gave here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39iTbL2idhQ

Unless i fell asleep at some point, there is also no mention of a visit to a "death camp".
Note that at minute 41.00 he gives another explanation for the Allies refusal to act concretely to rescue the Jews. It is really a good one. :roll:

Nevertheless, the interview you posted is presented like this:
In 1942 and 43, Jan Karski, a Polish WW2 resistance fighter, fled Poland to report to the government-in-exile and the western allies on the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto and the secretive Nazi extermination camps.


Even president Obama, during the medal of freedom ceremony awarded to Karski, said:
"Before he crossed the enemy lines , resistance fighters told him that Jews were being murdered on a massive scale and smuggled him into the Warsaw Ghetto AND a polish death camp to see for himself..."


Guess that as time goes by, what camp it was is not that important anymore...

Jeffk 1970:
Well, that seals it for me. If he was at Izbica and pointed out details there then that ends the debate, for me at least.


How so?

Denying-History:
With great risk to his life, he was smuggled into the Warsaw ghetto and into a camp in the Lublin area. The horrors he witnessed marked him deeply and propelled him to become not only the messenger of the Polish underground, but to concentrate on giving voice to the suffering of the dying Jews.


Sounds like the Obama way...who cares about the camp? Why not just say somewhere in Poland...Not worth to take any risk...

Jeff:
That is good enough in all honesty. He identifies his current location as the location he was present in in 1942, not explicitly, but his pointing to spots and giving the layout of the camp is more than sufficient to reach a conclusion. The claim that Karski described Belzec as the location until his death, "from his first interview to his last" is now crushed by the Twatting Hammer, along with its claimant


Same as with the other Jeff, HOW SO?
It does not answer any question at all.
This is becoming a Joke here. The fact that Karski testified in 1942, wrote in 1944, and declared in the late 70's that he visited Belzec is not erased only because in his later interviews he does not even mention having visited a camp, or am i missing something,here?
A couple of question remains: how did Belzec become Izbica? and how did Izbica become an unknown camp or a camp in the Lublin area?

I personally think we are confronted with one of those grotesque example of the limits of "memorialization"...and basically who cares of what he really saw and where he really went. Let's make a hero out of him - not that i deny his courage, as he was indeed a carrier - he saw, he knew and try to warn the world...God bless him, just let's not dig too much into what he saw...
I do not doubt that he actually saw the Ghetto, but in the interview above he can't remember if that was in August or in September 1942, and he also recalled that he was guided by Leon FEINER who was indeed a Bundist leader,
but if i may add, by that time what was going on in the Ghetto was already known, starvation, people dying in the streets, despair...

But at the same time. and i know i am repeating myself, there is no way that his description could have been on the Izbica transit ghetto...
The issue of the uniform is quite secondary, a Polish one could have allowed him to visit Izbica, but would have been useless in any other cases. A Latvian, Estonian or Ukrainians uniform would have been useless in the case of Izbica, and more relevant for RC...But then again, how are we supposed to know?

Stupid idea. but could we consider the possibility that he saw his 1944 story - as he wrote it - as a help to get a visa to the USA? Do we have a quote from him of 1942 stating he actually visited Belzec personally?

The Rabbit showed that the information he was carrying arrived sooner than he did. He also said that he was carrying messages of political nature form the head of the political parties still in Poland, as well as messages from the delegates of the Polish Government. He then says he met some Jews who give him additional messages - propositions to end the persecutions toward the Jews ( making it a war aim, as well as threatening to bomb historical monuments!). That means that as a carrier he was carrying a load of messages from various parties. A postman so to speak. He was not the only one to do that. I mean that he was carrying information about Belzec is one thing, that he personally visited the camp / or even pretend to have visited the camp in 1942 is another one.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:13 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Darren Wilshak wrote:No problem, intriguing to think that this had never been transcribed. I mean you could get a computer to do it but there is no bar code or SKU...

:lol:



It seems to be a shortened version of the interview he gave here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39iTbL2idhQ

Unless i fell asleep at some point, there is also no mention of a visit to a "death camp".
Note that at minute 41.00 he gives another explanation for the Allies refusal to act concretely to rescue the Jews. It is really a good one. :roll:

Nevertheless, the interview you posted is presented like this:
In 1942 and 43, Jan Karski, a Polish WW2 resistance fighter, fled Poland to report to the government-in-exile and the western allies on the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto and the secretive Nazi extermination camps.


Even president Obama, during the medal of freedom ceremony awarded to Karski, said:
"Before he crossed the enemy lines , resistance fighters told him that Jews were being murdered on a massive scale and smuggled him into the Warsaw Ghetto AND a polish death camp to see for himself..."


Guess that as time goes by, what camp it was is not that important anymore...

Jeffk 1970:
Well, that seals it for me. If he was at Izbica and pointed out details there then that ends the debate, for me at least.


How so?

Denying-History:
With great risk to his life, he was smuggled into the Warsaw ghetto and into a camp in the Lublin area. The horrors he witnessed marked him deeply and propelled him to become not only the messenger of the Polish underground, but to concentrate on giving voice to the suffering of the dying Jews.


Sounds like the Obama way...who cares about the camp? Why not just say somewhere in Poland...Not worth to take any risk...

Jeff:
That is good enough in all honesty. He identifies his current location as the location he was present in in 1942, not explicitly, but his pointing to spots and giving the layout of the camp is more than sufficient to reach a conclusion. The claim that Karski described Belzec as the location until his death, "from his first interview to his last" is now crushed by the Twatting Hammer, along with its claimant


Same as with the other Jeff, HOW SO?
It does not answer any question at all.
This is becoming a Joke here. The fact that Karski testified in 1942, wrote in 1944, and declared in the late 70's that he visited Belzec is not erased only because in his later interviews he does not even mention having visited a camp, or am i missing something,here?
A couple of question remains: how did Belzec become Izbica? and how did Izbica become an unknown camp or a camp in the Lublin area?

I personally think we are confronted with one of those grotesque example of the limits of "memorialization"...and basically who cares of what he really saw and where he really went. Let's make a hero out of him - not that i deny his courage, as he was indeed a carrier - he saw, he knew and try to warn the world...God bless him, just let's not dig too much into what he saw...
I do not doubt that he actually saw the Ghetto, but in the interview above he can't remember if that was in August or in September 1942, and he also recalled that he was guided by Leon FEINER who was indeed a Bundist leader,
but if i may add, by that time what was going on in the Ghetto was already known, starvation, people dying in the streets, despair...

But at the same time. and i know i am repeating myself, there is no way that his description could have been on the Izbica transit ghetto...
The issue of the uniform is quite secondary, a Polish one could have allowed him to visit Izbica, but would have been useless in any other cases. A Latvian, Estonian or Ukrainians uniform would have been useless in the case of Izbica, and more relevant for RC...But then again, how are we supposed to know?

Stupid idea. but could we consider the possibility that he saw his 1944 story - as he wrote it - as a help to get a visa to the USA? Do we have a quote from him of 1942 stating he actually visited Belzec personally?

The Rabbit showed that the information he was carrying arrived sooner than he did. He also said that he was carrying messages of political nature form the head of the political parties still in Poland, as well as messages from the delegates of the Polish Government. He then says he met some Jews who give him additional messages - propositions to end the persecutions toward the Jews ( making it a war aim, as well as threatening to bomb historical monuments!). That means that as a carrier he was carrying a load of messages from various parties. A postman so to speak. He was not the only one to do that. I mean that he was carrying information about Belzec is one thing, that he personally visited the camp / or even pretend to have visited the camp in 1942 is another one.


Good points.
The problem I'm having is some of this is all over the map, so much so I'm reduced to trying to figure out if what he said in 1995 conflicts with what he said in 1942. Or 1944. Or 1978. Or 1985.

Get my drift?

I've gone back to what I've said originally:

Nothing he described matches what Belzec actually looked like. I can't take the word of a man who spent hours in a location over the word of the SS men who worked there or a prisoner who was there for three months.
Here's something else:
Why would Warsaw Jews send him to Belzec or Izbica? A closer camp to send him to would be Treblinka.


So, in the end I'm willing to believe he saw a camp but it was not Belzec.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:57 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
BRoI wrote:Jeff, I have photographs of all the files in the British National Archives on Karski, there's an abundance of proof that he was in England by late October 1942:


I believe you. According to the transcript, however, Karski did not correct Lanzmann on this.

So, we have documented proof that Karski was in Britain at the time that Lanzmann states the visit occurred (or close enough to prevent a visit in November). Karski does not correct this.

BROI wrote:That's perfectly reasonable based on what we know. But the big question for me is why Karski always maintained he went to Belzec, and if he did finally admit he went to Izbica—as numerous people claim—why is it so hard to find some actual proof of it?


I think it comes back to the fact he only made one visit, he was emotionally compromised, he got certain details wrong and there continues to be discrepancies about the visit. Because of this I go back to witnesses who actually spent real time there.

A bit late and maybe already treated and missed by me, have you read what else is on that page quoted and linked to earlier?

Apparently for the 2010 broadcast some changes were made by Lanzmann, pointing to Karski's later epiphany? (I linked footnote "32" to footnote "3" - since that's where they ask one to go anyway. :-P Jeffk 1970 already posted it upthread.)

The Karski Report: The Unadorned Truth?

...is its content identical to the filmed material of 1978?

The transcript of the dialogue and the sound and image tracks of the original interview in the Holocaust Memorial Museum, offer an answer to this question. Although the recording of the interview is now available in digital form, with sound/image synchronization, the two tracks were in fact recorded separately in 1978, the sound with a Nagra tape recorder and the image with a 16 mm camera. In 1961, in an article on method for historians, Georges Sadoul wrote, ‘Editing is used for the images, but also for the soundtrack, whose words, music and miscellaneous noise are most often recorded separately before being merged in an operation called mixing. There is a relationship between sound and image editing, but the two are not directly connected.’22 A comparison of Karski’s words as spoken, recorded, and preserved in the archives with the version presented in The Karski Report reveals obvious differences that challenge the director’s assertions and the impression of realness produced by the editing.


First, the entire interview has not been included, and the section relating to Karski’s visit to the extermination camp at Belzec has not yet been shown...


Finally, two words spoken by Lanz­mann have been changed in a way that alters the original soundtrack. In the excerpt from the original transcript and the ‘text of the film’ published in Les Temps Modernes, two sentences differ from those in The Karski Report. In 1978, Lanzmann – whose face, but not lips, can be seen on the left-hand edge of the screen, asked: ‘Did you remember Belzec ...’. In the 2010 film the question has become, ‘Did you remember Warsaw?’. The second instance of words being changed also relates to the extermination camp at Belzec: the question put by Lanzmann – not on-screen at the time – in 1978, ‘Is it possible to grasp Belzec?’ becomes, after editing for The Karski Report, ‘Is it possible to grasp the destruction of the Jews ...’31. Very probably, Lanzmann did not want The Karski Report to reveal that during their meeting he believed Karski had visited the Belzec extermination camp.32
https://etudesphotographiques.revues.org/3467



Edited to add more text to the quote.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:40 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
BRoI wrote:Jeff, I have photographs of all the files in the British National Archives on Karski, there's an abundance of proof that he was in England by late October 1942:


I believe you. According to the transcript, however, Karski did not correct Lanzmann on this.

So, we have documented proof that Karski was in Britain at the time that Lanzmann states the visit occurred (or close enough to prevent a visit in November). Karski does not correct this.

BROI wrote:That's perfectly reasonable based on what we know. But the big question for me is why Karski always maintained he went to Belzec, and if he did finally admit he went to Izbica—as numerous people claim—why is it so hard to find some actual proof of it?


I think it comes back to the fact he only made one visit, he was emotionally compromised, he got certain details wrong and there continues to be discrepancies about the visit. Because of this I go back to witnesses who actually spent real time there.

A bit late and maybe already treated and missed by me, have you read what else is on that page quoted and linked to earlier?

Apparently for the 2010 broadcast some changes were made by Lanzmann, pointing to Karski's later epiphany? (I linked footnote "32" to footnote "3" - since that's where they ask one to go anyway. :-P Jeffk 1970 already posted it upthread.)

The Karski Report: The Unadorned Truth?

...is its content identical to the filmed material of 1978?

The transcript of the dialogue and the sound and image tracks of the original interview in the Holocaust Memorial Museum, offer an answer to this question. Although the recording of the interview is now available in digital form, with sound/image synchronization, the two tracks were in fact recorded separately in 1978, the sound with a Nagra tape recorder and the image with a 16 mm camera. In 1961, in an article on method for historians, Georges Sadoul wrote, ‘Editing is used for the images, but also for the soundtrack, whose words, music and miscellaneous noise are most often recorded separately before being merged in an operation called mixing. There is a relationship between sound and image editing, but the two are not directly connected.’22 A comparison of Karski’s words as spoken, recorded, and preserved in the archives with the version presented in The Karski Report reveals obvious differences that challenge the director’s assertions and the impression of realness produced by the editing.


First, the entire interview has not been included, and the section relating to Karski’s visit to the extermination camp at Belzec has not yet been shown...


Finally, two words spoken by Lanz­mann have been changed in a way that alters the original soundtrack. In the excerpt from the original transcript and the ‘text of the film’ published in Les Temps Modernes, two sentences differ from those in The Karski Report. In 1978, Lanzmann – whose face, but not lips, can be seen on the left-hand edge of the screen, asked: ‘Did you remember Belzec ...’. In the 2010 film the question has become, ‘Did you remember Warsaw?’. The second instance of words being changed also relates to the extermination camp at Belzec: the question put by Lanzmann – not on-screen at the time – in 1978, ‘Is it possible to grasp Belzec?’ becomes, after editing for The Karski Report, ‘Is it possible to grasp the destruction of the Jews ...’31. Very probably, Lanzmann did not want The Karski Report to reveal that during their meeting he believed Karski had visited the Belzec extermination camp.32
https://etudesphotographiques.revues.org/3467



Edited to add more text to the quote.


Yes, I read it.

The transcript posted by D-H also contained discrepancies, for example it said the visit took place in November.

So, I go back to what I've said before.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:09 am

Balsamo

A couple of question remains: how did Belzec become Izbica? and how did Izbica become an unknown camp or a camp in the Lublin area?


It plainly was not Belzec, just read his statement, that is all you need. As for why he stated it in the beginning, I think he was a bit of an Elie Wiesel if you know what I mean, maybe bordering on Irene Zisblatt. I think he visited either Maklinia or Izbica knowingly, and then told it off as a visit to Belzec when he spoke to Zygilelbjom and Schwatzbart, adding details either made up or acquired in his visit to Belzec in 1940. The fact that he made no mention of it in his initial report to Sikorski and his initial interrogation is telling, regardless of the painfully weak speculation of our fluffy interlocutor. It is also telling that he displayed no deja vu in his 1944 "account" despite his visiting the future site of the place that he (did not) allegedly visited not long before.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Xcalibur » Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:28 am

Rabbit, I still think you're a {!#%@}. I don't give a damn what you say. And a nitpicking liar as well. {!#%@} off.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 4:30 am

Xcalibur wrote:Rabbit, I still think you're a {!#%@}. I don't give a damn what you say. And a nitpicking liar as well. {!#%@} off.


I happen to agree. Denier of not a douchebag is a douchebag (still infinitely preferable to K0nsl, but only after his reversal).

I find it amusing that he was unable to reply to my ridicule of his nonsense on the TGS article, notably his lame, half-hearted attempts to swipe it under his rug while ignoring
A) its similarity to the 1944 account, and

B), the fact that it is a product of Karski, Zygielbojm, and Schwartzbart, irrespective of the circumstances under which it was produced.

Our little west-end friend shoots himself in the foot by casting the article as propagandistic. Yes, that's exactly what it was and that's exactly why his nitpicking on the references for its original edition mean less than nothing. Karski was a propagandist, that was his role and occupation within the AK. It is no surprise that he was involved in that kind of work on both sides of the channel and that this article can be seen more accurately as a partial result of such work. But don't bother reasoning with the Daft Wabbit, you might as well be dealing with an orange peel floating down the Thames.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 16, 2016 12:39 am

Jeff_36 wrote:Balsamo

A couple of question remains: how did Belzec become Izbica? and how did Izbica become an unknown camp or a camp in the Lublin area?


It plainly was not Belzec, just read his statement, that is all you need. As for why he stated it in the beginning, I think he was a bit of an Elie Wiesel if you know what I mean, maybe bordering on Irene Zisblatt. I think he visited either Maklinia or Izbica knowingly, and then told it off as a visit to Belzec when he spoke to Zygilelbjom and Schwatzbart, adding details either made up or acquired in his visit to Belzec in 1940. The fact that he made no mention of it in his initial report to Sikorski and his initial interrogation is telling, regardless of the painfully weak speculation of our fluffy interlocutor. It is also telling that he displayed no deja vu in his 1944 "account" despite his visiting the future site of the place that he (did not) allegedly visited not long before.


There are two different points here:

I agree with you that he did not visit the Belzec death camp.
But the question is why did he make up that story and when. The Zisblatt syndrom is not a satisfaying answer. But i guess that we can only speculate on that. As i said, maybe - as he was carrying information on Belzec - he felt obliged to say he saw the whole thing in order to give more strength to the information. A lie in good faith he could not escaped from.

My concern is more about the attitude of some historians confronted with this obvious lie which has become an embarrassing one for them as no one seems to want to reach the only possible conclusion which is Karski never saw the Belzec death camp, and has never been to Izbica neither. Nevertheless, a TV show thinks it smarts to bring him there.

Starting with you who from the start imagined that he could have seen some "other camps", Malkinia or Izbica*****. I think you said that there was 80% chances he visited Izbica but was somehow quite dizzy and confused.
If i may, here is a couple of your quotes:
Jeff:
Thus he was basically flying blind upon his return to the Lublin district and would have easily confused the Izbica camp with the Belzec Death Camp


Flat wrong! He saw the Izbica transit camp upon his second visit to the district




PS: **** ( me too as my first reaction. But then there were just no death camp fitting his description, so i dropped this first reaction)

This is pure speculation, and if i may add, even less plausible than a hypothetical visit of Belzec. If there was a small transit camp in Malkinia, it would not fit with Karski description as there is just no way it ever held 6.000 prisoners.

The choice of Izbica is even more stupid, as there is just nothing to support that it was a "camp" in the first place. Izbica was a Polish city with an open ghetto in it, hence the presence of Polish Blue Policemen. Like other ghettos, order inside was managed by a Jewish police force. Trawnikis were only used for Actions. At this stage, it is not clear what kind of uniform would have been the best to enter and exit the ghetto...

And this the disturbing part - and i understood the Rabbit right - it is also what disturbs him: Why the hell didn't the historians and biographers just concluded that some parts of his testimonies is not credible instead of trying to "find" a camp that would suit his testimony? Not only is this attempt absolutely unscientific, but the results - the proposals - are terrible!

Again, after having read your posts, you kind of summarized this attitude:
- he did not visit Belzec (which is right and not disputed)
- He visited Izbica instead (which is absurd)
- he was dizzy, confused, did not know the region, etc. Even more absurd as 1. Karski is still described (and described himslef) with a photographic memory (his talent for being a carrier), and was obviously had knowledge of the concerned region. Again ridicule argument.
- Or blame the lack of memory on some trauma and torture.

Well none of this does save the day. Jan Karski was carrying his "news" (his visit to Belzec) when he first arrived to London, and stayed with this story for the next 40 years or more.
But again, that is not the issue that worries me. What's worries me is that in 2016, we still associate Karki with a visit of the Izbica ghetto like on the Holocaustresearchproject website, in various books and monographies on Karski, included the latest eddition of his "memoirs", or just to a visit to some unknown, unlocated death camp, like in Obama's speech, in Yad Vashem (camp near Lublin (for whatever that means).

When the most obvious conclusion would be that he did visit the Warsaw Ghetto, but never came close to any death camp at all.

Still in 2016 it seems we are still stuck in the insane logic explained above, or as Wiki has it :
Also, disguised as an Estonian camp guard, he visited what he thought was Bełżec death camp. In actuality, it seems that Karski only managed to get close enough to witness a Durchgangslager (transit camp) for Bełżec in the town of Izbica Lubelska, located midway between Lublin and Bełżec.[7] Many historians have accepted this theory, as did Karski himself.[8]


This is not what can be called a theory at all!!! It is a pure nonsensical suppositions/speculation that is not supported by any tiny little element.

So yes, we have a not so good HEROE after all and most probably did not deserve his medal of freedom the way we thought. I guess we'll never know his reasons or his motivation, a i see it as a Lanzmann collateral damage.
he made that visit up is the first thing that comes to mind, but i feel it just took 6 pages of discussion to agree with it.

As for the Rabbit, he told you from the start:
Sure, you can argue he lied, but claiming he was confused is absurd.


So i agree with your last sentence:
Karski was a propagandist, that was his role and occupation within the AK. It is no surprise that he was involved in that kind of work on both sides of the channel and that this article can be seen more accurately as a partial result of such work.


But it is not obvious to me that it was what you were defending page 1 of this thead.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 16, 2016 4:47 am

Balsamo: In short, If I can express my thesis on this matter it would be that Karski visited either Izbica or Malkinia, was not confused, and knew full well that they were what they were and where.He likely fabricated the visit to Belzec in an effort to bring attention to his information on other matters (such as the state of the Warsaw ghetto, something that he talked about exclusively in his first interview upon returning to the UK, but made no mention of the "visit") or perhaps to construct a good PR piece. He was involved in propaganda after all. His account changed a number of times on critical matters before developing into the 1944 book. His 1944 account is very similar in its structure and tropes to his 1940 account, and there is no way he would describe the camp the way he did if it actually was Belzec as he had been to the area beforehand. There was no moment of Deja Vu in the 1944 account, which would have been expectable as he had been there before and observed something he described as shocking. His account of the Warsaw ghetto is anachronistic and brings ti the table questions as to whether or not he was relying on second hand information from his two interlocutors (the meeting happened outside the ghetto).

I would like to point out that Dumbass Von Shitface does in fact dispute that Karski never went to Belzec, and in fact claims that Karki's absurd account is proof that Belzec was a transit camp. This is a ludicrous thesis that I have painstakingly and emphatically refuted in my prior posts. Anyone who reads the 1944 account can tell immediately that it is not the Belzec Death Camp. Funnily enough, it was information that DVS posted here that clearly shows this to be the case, by mentioning Karki's 1940 account he basically cast himself gleefully into the dustbin of history as it clearly shows Karski's 1944 account to be based heavily on the one made four years earlier, abet with none of the descriptive features one would expect from someone who had been to the town of Belzec before. It is ironic that someone so critical of witnesses chooses to take at face value the account of an obvious exaggerator and inventor of events.

As for your comparisons to my earlier posts, yes, my thesis has evolved considerably since the beginning of the thread. But it is still in sharp conflict with the thesis of DVS.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:04 am

Balsamo wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:Balsamo

A couple of question remains: how did Belzec become Izbica? and how did Izbica become an unknown camp or a camp in the Lublin area?


It plainly was not Belzec, just read his statement, that is all you need. As for why he stated it in the beginning, I think he was a bit of an Elie Wiesel if you know what I mean, maybe bordering on Irene Zisblatt. I think he visited either Maklinia or Izbica knowingly, and then told it off as a visit to Belzec when he spoke to Zygilelbjom and Schwatzbart, adding details either made up or acquired in his visit to Belzec in 1940. The fact that he made no mention of it in his initial report to Sikorski and his initial interrogation is telling, regardless of the painfully weak speculation of our fluffy interlocutor. It is also telling that he displayed no deja vu in his 1944 "account" despite his visiting the future site of the place that he (did not) allegedly visited not long before.


There are two different points here:

I agree with you that he did not visit the Belzec death camp.
But the question is why did he make up that story and when. The Zisblatt syndrom is not a satisfaying answer. But i guess that we can only speculate on that. As i said, maybe - as he was carrying information on Belzec - he felt obliged to say he saw the whole thing in order to give more strength to the information. A lie in good faith he could not escaped from.

My concern is more about the attitude of some historians confronted with this obvious lie which has become an embarrassing one for them as no one seems to want to reach the only possible conclusion which is Karski never saw the Belzec death camp, and has never been to Izbica neither. Nevertheless, a TV show thinks it smarts to bring him there.

Starting with you who from the start imagined that he could have seen some "other camps", Malkinia or Izbica*****. I think you said that there was 80% chances he visited Izbica but was somehow quite dizzy and confused.
If i may, here is a couple of your quotes:
Jeff:
Thus he was basically flying blind upon his return to the Lublin district and would have easily confused the Izbica camp with the Belzec Death Camp


Flat wrong! He saw the Izbica transit camp upon his second visit to the district




PS: **** ( me too as my first reaction. But then there were just no death camp fitting his description, so i dropped this first reaction)

This is pure speculation, and if i may add, even less plausible than a hypothetical visit of Belzec. If there was a small transit camp in Malkinia, it would not fit with Karski description as there is just no way it ever held 6.000 prisoners.

The choice of Izbica is even more stupid, as there is just nothing to support that it was a "camp" in the first place. Izbica was a Polish city with an open ghetto in it, hence the presence of Polish Blue Policemen. Like other ghettos, order inside was managed by a Jewish police force. Trawnikis were only used for Actions. At this stage, it is not clear what kind of uniform would have been the best to enter and exit the ghetto...

And this the disturbing part - and i understood the Rabbit right - it is also what disturbs him: Why the hell didn't the historians and biographers just concluded that some parts of his testimonies is not credible instead of trying to "find" a camp that would suit his testimony? Not only is this attempt absolutely unscientific, but the results - the proposals - are terrible!

Again, after having read your posts, you kind of summarized this attitude:
- he did not visit Belzec (which is right and not disputed)
- He visited Izbica instead (which is absurd)
- he was dizzy, confused, did not know the region, etc. Even more absurd as 1. Karski is still described (and described himslef) with a photographic memory (his talent for being a carrier), and was obviously had knowledge of the concerned region. Again ridicule argument.
- Or blame the lack of memory on some trauma and torture.

Well none of this does save the day. Jan Karski was carrying his "news" (his visit to Belzec) when he first arrived to London, and stayed with this story for the next 40 years or more.
But again, that is not the issue that worries me. What's worries me is that in 2016, we still associate Karki with a visit of the Izbica ghetto like on the Holocaustresearchproject website, in various books and monographies on Karski, included the latest eddition of his "memoirs", or just to a visit to some unknown, unlocated death camp, like in Obama's speech, in Yad Vashem (camp near Lublin (for whatever that means).

When the most obvious conclusion would be that he did visit the Warsaw Ghetto, but never came close to any death camp at all.

Still in 2016 it seems we are still stuck in the insane logic explained above, or as Wiki has it :
Also, disguised as an Estonian camp guard, he visited what he thought was Bełżec death camp. In actuality, it seems that Karski only managed to get close enough to witness a Durchgangslager (transit camp) for Bełżec in the town of Izbica Lubelska, located midway between Lublin and Bełżec.[7] Many historians have accepted this theory, as did Karski himself.[8]


This is not what can be called a theory at all!!! It is a pure nonsensical suppositions/speculation that is not supported by any tiny little element.

So yes, we have a not so good HEROE after all and most probably did not deserve his medal of freedom the way we thought. I guess we'll never know his reasons or his motivation, a i see it as a Lanzmann collateral damage.
he made that visit up is the first thing that comes to mind, but i feel it just took 6 pages of discussion to agree with it.

As for the Rabbit, he told you from the start:
Sure, you can argue he lied, but claiming he was confused is absurd.


So i agree with your last sentence:
Karski was a propagandist, that was his role and occupation within the AK. It is no surprise that he was involved in that kind of work on both sides of the channel and that this article can be seen more accurately as a partial result of such work.


But it is not obvious to me that it was what you were defending page 1 of this thead.


I'm inclined (slowly but surely) to come around to considering your point of view that Karski never visited any camps, only the Warsaw Ghetto. His description does smack of propaganda (Jews melted in trains????) and perhaps he doesn't and didn't deserve the accolades he received.
However, at this point without further evidence the most I can say clearly is that he didn't visit Belzec. Is it possible that he visited another camp in 1942 that he mistook as Belzec and that belief stayed with him for all of those years? This is also a possibility. I simply don't know. However, I'm willing to examine anything else anyone has on the subject. I'm also going if there is anything else I can find. I'm not particularly hopeful at this point.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:26 pm

Jeff:
If I can express my thesis on this matter it would be that Karski visited either Izbica or Malkinia, was not confused, and knew full well that they were what they were and where.


Again, sorry but this is not even a thesis...especially when it comes to Karski visit the two camps. You can make things up when you are pretty sure that you cannot be discovered. But describing a Ghetto as a death camp would be stupid. Even a propagandist would not dare, and there is no element supporting the idea Karski did.

I would like to point out that Dumbass Von Shitface does in fact dispute that Karski never went to Belzec, and in fact claims that Karki's absurd account is proof that Belzec was a transit camp.


First, let me say that this forum would be a better place with no repetitive insults and Ad Homs.

Secondly, i really fail to see where BRoI is defending the idea that Belzec was a transit camp because Karski saw Jews leaving the camp. And if i may add, it seems you were influenced by this perception all along.
The OP launched by Jeffk was maybe misleading as well, but after having checked the discussion on the other forum when he presented the issue as
The Rabbit maintains that Karski visited Belzec.


Well i personally have not read that,
From the start, his target is the "Izbica theory"

I quote the Rabbit:
The *Karski confused Izbica for Belzec* theory is a short and tidy explanation for those who want to believe it, but it’s thoroughly unconvincing. Karski always maintained—from his first report to his final interview—that he had visited Belzec. It was an area the Pole knew, unlike the legion of Americans and West Europeans who claim he was confused about where he went.


This is 100% true.
And i understand it as the start of this discussion, that is that the Izbica theory is even more absurd that Karski story of him visiting Belzec.
I personally doubt the Rabbit gives any credit to Karski's testimony, especially since his admission of the AR camps were death camps. Well of course, he is welcome to contradict me on that.

What he actually showed through the documents he provided was that Karski always maintained that he had visited Belzec until very late in the 80's or 90's, and denounced those who tried to save the day by building this silly theory that their hero confused a camp and a ghetto.

I am pretty sure that the discussion would not have lasted that long had you reached the conclusion that Karski was just a propagandist who made that up sooner as you actually did.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:17 pm

Balsamo wrote:First, let me say that this forum would be a better place with no repetitive insults and Ad Homs.


I agree. I leave that stuff for Furtherglory's Blog, primarily because I have no respect for most of the people that post there.
That being said I've stopped posting there because I now find this forum much more intellectually stimulating and I enjoy this much more.

Balsamo wrote:Secondly, i really fail to see where BRoI is defending the idea that Belzec was a transit camp because Karski saw Jews leaving the camp. And if i may add, it seems you were influenced by this perception all along.


This may be my mistake as well. I thought BROI was saying Karski visited Belzec.
However, BROI also no longer believes that the ARC were transit camps, with Karski possibly being an outlier.

Balsamo wrote:The OP launched by Jeffk was maybe misleading as well, but after having checked the discussion on the other forum when he presented the issue as
The Rabbit maintains that Karski visited Belzec.


My intention was not to be misleading, I simply misunderstood what BROI was saying. Keep in mind BROI's rather surprising revelations surprised me as much as it did anyone.
I'm going to skip ahead a bit at this point:

Balsamo wrote:I am pretty sure that the discussion would not have lasted that long had you reached the conclusion that Karski was just a propagandist who made that up sooner as you actually did.


I'm not sure Karski actually made anything up. It is, of course, a possibility. But Karski maintained that he visited a camp for a very long time, longer than necessary for any type of propagandandist reason. Maybe he did this for personal reasons or, what I believe is more likely, he simply mistook Belzec for another camp.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Balsamo » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:20 pm

Jeffk:
My intention was not to be misleading, I simply misunderstood what BROI was saying. Keep in mind BROI's rather surprising revelations surprised me as much as it did anyone.


No problem, it happens.

I'm not sure Karski actually made anything up. It is, of course, a possibility. But Karski maintained that he visited a camp for a very long time, longer than necessary for any type of propagandandist reason. Maybe he did this for personal reasons or, what I believe is more likely, he simply mistook Belzec for another camp.


It is nevertheless the most obvious conclusion.
First because he did not only maintain that he visited A camp, but that he visited Belzec death camp which is an allegation everyone reading the transcript of the hour long and prepared interview with Lanzmann should dismiss first hand. What he is saying just defies the most indulgent readers.
Secondly, once one publishes a book reaffirming the whole story for the posterity, one is just stuck with the lie, and that does not only concern "propagandist" - which is a qualification maybe a bit harsh, by the way.
From day one, that is upon his arrival in the USA, he became a kind of symbol, being the first "eyewitness to tell about the Holocaust to the president of the USA! and starting a conference tour afterward. Even if only part of his listeners believed them at that time, the discovered truth made him an icon. His book was the most successful memoir of the period, selling 400.000 copies (according to Wiki). He was granted a visa, could study and get a PhD, became a professor...Quite a nice new life for a former Polish officer.

I guess that a public retraction saying: " You know, there was just no way to access a Death camp without being a victim or a murderer, so i invented the story so that people would be aware of what was going on..." would have disappointed a whole lot of people, even putting his career at risk.

And then a new fame arose in the 1980's, celebrated by Wiesel, in 1982 he was raised to Righteous among the Nation, he was chosen as one of the witness of Lanzman "Shoah", and basically the road to fame and recognition never stopped all the way to his reward post-mortem of the Medal of Freedom.

Hence, once Karski became a myth, it was too late, and the only way out was to "adapt" his story in order to save the appearance, otherwise, it would have been an embarrassment for quite a lot of people.

But i am not judging him too harshly - i became more indulgent - and his case reminds me a excellent movie from 1992, called "Hero" by Stephen Frears (starring Dustin Hoffman and Andy Garcia), where the media pick up the wrong survivors of a plane crash who saved tens of lives and turning him into a public hero- actually they chose the handsome Andy Garcia while the real hero is some kind of looser (Hoffman).

Well maybe he became an "accidental hero" without really realizing it, and even without having wanted it. Who knows? I am pretty sure he had the best intentions, and really want to raise awareness of what was going on in Poland. By the way, he was by far not the only "carrier" bringing news from Poland. News were flooding as soon as early 1942! But somehow, he was offered a position and opportunities that had been denied to others, and for that reason got stuck with his original lie, most certainly believing that it was for a good cause - and it was.

That all being said, on a pure historical perspective, there is just nothing to do with his testimony, and sadly he became yet another example of the dangers of excessive "memorialization" - which has nothing to do with historical research - and i can't personally approve all those attempts to adapt a silly story in order to make it acceptable. And i am sorry this attempt involves Historians who chose to pervert the historical method in order to achieve that - without succeeding though with people who have some knowledge about the Holocaust.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:09 am

Last Friday I finally looked at a copy of the very first Polish edition of Karski's book, published in Warsaw in 1999.

Image

The book features an introduction which was written by Kaski on 1 September 1999 [10 months before his death] in which he states that this Polish translation is "opartych także na moich uzupełnieniach i korektach" [roughly: "also based on my additions and corrections", p.7]. But in Chapter 30, the text states that he still visited the camp in Belzec ["do obozu w Bełżcu"; p.256]—about two kilometres ["około dwóch kilometrów"; p.257] from the town—which was the last stop for thousands of Jews transported there to die ["ostatni etap dla tysięcy Żydów zwożonych tam na śmierć"; p.256].

Waldemar Piasecki, "the closest friend, co-worker and organiser of public activities during the last ten years of Jan Karski’s life", contributes a chapter to this book. He claims that Karski actually went to Izbica but states of the hay cart Karski got on at Lublin: "Karski was convinced that brought him to Belzec" ["Karski był przekonany, że przywieziono go do Bełżec." p.14].

So, a very good friend of Karski who made a documentary about him in 1997 and was involved in the definitive edition of his book, states that Karski was "convinced" he went to Belzec even during the final months of his life.

Image

I already proved that the French historian Rémy Besson made spurious claims about Céline Gervais-Francelle's forward to the 2010 French edition, but this post shows that he was categorical wrong in his assertion: "In the Polish version of his memoirs, published in 1999, Karski has had Belzec replaced by Izbica".

Besson's say-so that Karski admitted in 1995 to having visited Izbica on a Californian Jewish TV show looks shakier now than ever, especially considering Besson neglected to even quote what Karski said.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:51 am

BRoI wrote:Last Friday I finally looked at a copy of the very first Polish edition of Karski's book, published in Warsaw in 1999.

Image

The book features an introduction which was written by Kaski on 1 September 1999 [10 months before his death] in which he states that this Polish translation is "opartych także na moich uzupełnieniach i korektach" [roughly: "also based on my additions and corrections", p.7]. But in Chapter 30, the text states that he still visited the camp in Belzec ["do obozu w Bełżcu"; p.256]—about two kilometres ["około dwóch kilometrów"; p.257] from the town—which was the last stop for thousands of Jews transported there to die ["ostatni etap dla tysięcy Żydów zwożonych tam na śmierć"; p.256].

Waldemar Piasecki, "the closest friend, co-worker and organiser of public activities during the last ten years of Jan Karski’s life", contributes a chapter to this book. He claims that Karski actually went to Izbica but states of the hay cart Karski got on at Lublin: "Karski was convinced that brought him to Belzec" ["Karski był przekonany, że przywieziono go do Bełżec." p.14].

So, a very good friend of Karski who made a documentary about him in 1997 and was involved in the definitive edition of his book, states that Karski was "convinced" he went to Belzec even during the final months of his life.

Image

I already proved that the French historian Rémy Besson made spurious claims about Céline Gervais-Francelle's forward to the 2010 French edition, but this post shows that he was categorical wrong in his assertion: "In the Polish version of his memoirs, published in 1999, Karski has had Belzec replaced by Izbica".

Besson's say-so that Karski admitted in 1995 to having visited Izbica on a Californian Jewish TV show looks shakier now than ever, especially considering Besson neglected to even quote what Karski said.


OK, so bottom line, what do you think?

Do you think Karski went to Belzec and what he described is actually what Belzec was?

Do you think Karski lied about the whole thing and never went to a camp at all (as far as I can tell this is Balsamo's opinion and perhaps Jeff_36's as well)?

Something else, perhaps?

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:08 am

Karski stated in the 1993 interview and in 1995 that he had been to Izbica. Period. This is not disputable. I think he was a distorter and a misshaper, but to say that he was in any way consistent on this is to tell a whopper.

So, a very good friend of Karski who made a documentary about him in 1997 and was involved in the definitive edition of his book, states that Karski was "convinced" he went to Belzec even during the final months of his life.


Show me where he says that Karski's opinion (on his visiting Belzec) was still present in the last months of his life? I read it as a telling of what Karski thought at the time of the "visit" in 1942. How anyone can see otherwise, well, I assume that there is lack of medication at play there. :lol:

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Xcalibur » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:30 am

i never thought Karski relevant to anything.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:25 am

Xcalibur wrote:i never thought Karski relevant to anything.


honestly I think he was full of hot air. Decent man, but full of hot air.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:56 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:OK, so bottom line, what do you think?

Do you think Karski went to Belzec and what he described is actually what Belzec was?

Do you think Karski lied about the whole thing and never went to a camp at all (as far as I can tell this is Balsamo's opinion and perhaps Jeff_36's as well)?

Something else, perhaps?

I'd not committed to any theory as of yet, and am still trying to track down a few sources.

I lean towards the entire trip being an invention based on the fact there was a death camp in Belzec which was a town he had visited a few years earlier and submitted a report on the Jewish internment camp he witnessed there. Although the strange execution method he said to have witnessed was at certainly at odds with the electrocution method his government was claiming at this time; I have previously posted evidence showing that the London Poles stuck with the electrocution story even after they received information from Karski. I don't see any reason why Karski would concoct the entire story if he was not ordered to do so by his government for propaganda purposes, but it's equally implausible that his government would permit him to propagate an execution method contra to the one they were pushing at that time. So, I also recognise there's decent arguments against the *invention* theory.

Here's a taster of the articles and adverts that pushed Karski's book in the U.S.

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Image
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"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:07 pm

BRoI wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:OK, so bottom line, what do you think?

Do you think Karski went to Belzec and what he described is actually what Belzec was?

Do you think Karski lied about the whole thing and never went to a camp at all (as far as I can tell this is Balsamo's opinion and perhaps Jeff_36's as well)?

Something else, perhaps?

I'd not committed to any theory as of yet, and am still trying to track down a few sources.

I lean towards the entire trip being an invention based on the fact there was a death camp in Belzec which was a town he had visited a few years earlier and submitted a report on the Jewish internment camp he witnessed there. Although the strange execution method he said to have witnessed was at certainly at odds with the electrocution method his government was claiming at this time; I have previously posted evidence showing that the London Poles stuck with the electrocution story even after they received information from Karski. I don't see any reason why Karski would concoct the entire story if he was not ordered to do so by his government for propaganda purposes, but it's equally implausible that his government would permit him to propagate an execution method contra to the one they were pushing at that time. So, I also recognise there's decent arguments against the *invention* theory.

Here's a taster of the articles and adverts that pushed Karski's book in the U.S.

Image
Image
Image


I'm keeping an open mind.
At this point I lean a little towards invention, primarily due to the fact there are too many discrepancies in his story. Or, I also believe there is a case for embellishment.

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:54 pm

I am also in favor of invention. I think he visited Maklinia or Izbica, knew full well that they were what they were, and used elements of what he saw there mixed in with elements of his 1940 account to create the account featured in "Story of a Secret State".

I do not think that his initial messages to Lisbon carried any mention of an execution method at all, and DVS's insistence that there was mention, but the Poles rejected it is rather amusing speculation in my opinion. The fact that he made no mention at all of his visit to Belzec in his initial interview (although he did discuss the Warsaw Ghetto) and in his report to Sikorski is telling. I think the story was conjured up by him after his return to London as a way to insert himself into events and give himself a role much bigger than that of a courier. An early version of the story was clearly the inspiration for the article published in "The Ghetto Speaks".

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Re: Jan Karski's visit to Belzec/Izbica

Postby BRoI » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:02 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Karski stated in the 1993 interview and in 1995 that he had been to Izbica. Period. This is not disputable.

I've already proven Besson lied/erred/jeffed with his claims:

1. In the 1999 Polish version Karski had Belzec replaced with Izbica
2. In the 2010 French edition Céline C-F states the 1999 Polish edition replaces Belzec with Izbica

I've also proven that Jean-Louis Panné cites no source for his claims about Karski's "1993" visits to Izbica and Belzec and Karski's alleged "formally identification" of Izbica.

Besson cites four sources for his claim that Karski admitting he went to Izbica.:
- 2 turn out to say the exact opposite of what Besson claimed
- Another provides no proof for its assertion
- Yet the fourth one, which is ridiculously hard to check and Besson suspiciously didn't provide a quote from, is supposedly "not disputable" according to Jeff.

These are the items I've obtained to check Besson's claims:

- Two French Books
- One Polish Book

What have you done to check Besson's claims, Jeff, aside from responding to my posts with contemptible remarks about child abuse, nuffin?


So, a very good friend of Karski who made a documentary about him in 1997 and was involved in the definitive edition of his book, states that Karski was "convinced" he went to Belzec even during the final months of his life.

Show me where he says that Karski's opinion (on his visiting Belzec) was still present in the last months of his life? I read it as a telling of what Karski thought at the time of the "visit" in 1942. How anyone can see otherwise, well, I assume that there is lack of medication at play there. :lol:

Okay, if that's how *you read* Waldemar Piasecki's chapter, which is in Polish, and in a book you've never seen! Care to explain [without your usual insults about child abuse] why didn't Karski change Belzec to Izbica, considering that Karski wrote in September 1999 that this edition includes his own "additions and corrections" [uzupełnieniach i korektach]?
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.


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