Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

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Jeff_36
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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:45 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:2) The Soviets used masses of US tanks.

The Soviets didn't like US tanks, they called them "coffins for seven brothers" and "Ronson lighters." They preferred their own tanks, they only used any tanks they received for training purposes. Frankly, their tanks were better.


An old Canadian tanker I spoke to a few years ago told me that whoever designed the Sherman should have been hanged for treason. In hindsight it was a horrific vehicle and I'm amazed that the allies won at all despite being saddled with them.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:57 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:2) The Soviets used masses of US tanks.

The Soviets didn't like US tanks, they called them "coffins for seven brothers" and "Ronson lighters." They preferred their own tanks, they only used any tanks they received for training purposes. Frankly, their tanks were better.


An old Canadian tanker I spoke to a few years ago told me that whoever designed the Sherman should have been hanged for treason. In hindsight it was a horrific vehicle and I'm amazed that the allies won at all despite being saddled with them.


The Americans mass produced them, they were a reasonable match for anything the Germans produced up until about 1942, however, the Panther and Tiger tanks tore through them like paper.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Xcalibur » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:20 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:2) The Soviets used masses of US tanks.

The Soviets didn't like US tanks, they called them "coffins for seven brothers" and "Ronson lighters." They preferred their own tanks, they only used any tanks they received for training purposes. Frankly, their tanks were better.


An old Canadian tanker I spoke to a few years ago told me that whoever designed the Sherman should have been hanged for treason. In hindsight it was a horrific vehicle and I'm amazed that the allies won at all despite being saddled with them.


The Americans mass produced them, they were a reasonable match for anything the Germans produced up until about 1942, however, the Panther and Tiger tanks tore through them like paper.


yes, but. Never enough, too little, too late... horrible mechanical problems, quality control.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:29 am

Xcalibur wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:2) The Soviets used masses of US tanks.

The Soviets didn't like US tanks, they called them "coffins for seven brothers" and "Ronson lighters." They preferred their own tanks, they only used any tanks they received for training purposes. Frankly, their tanks were better.


An old Canadian tanker I spoke to a few years ago told me that whoever designed the Sherman should have been hanged for treason. In hindsight it was a horrific vehicle and I'm amazed that the allies won at all despite being saddled with them.


The Americans mass produced them, they were a reasonable match for anything the Germans produced up until about 1942, however, the Panther and Tiger tanks tore through them like paper.


yes, but. Never enough, too little, too late... horrible mechanical problems, quality control.


The Germans made some quality weapons in WW II. The problem was they lacked the ability to mass produce them due to terrible resource allocation and shortages. There was also Hitler's interference, the ME-262 was a real game changer but Hitler wanted it also used as a bomber, not just a fighter. The developers wasted time trying to make this a reality so when the jet was introduced in 1944 it was too late. Same thing with the "V" rockets.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:45 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:2) The Soviets used masses of US tanks.

The Soviets didn't like US tanks, they called them "coffins for seven brothers" and "Ronson lighters." They preferred their own tanks, they only used any tanks they received for training purposes. Frankly, their tanks were better.


An old Canadian tanker I spoke to a few years ago told me that whoever designed the Sherman should have been hanged for treason. In hindsight it was a horrific vehicle and I'm amazed that the allies won at all despite being saddled with them.


The Americans mass produced them, they were a reasonable match for anything the Germans produced up until about 1942, however, the Panther and Tiger tanks tore through them like paper.


he said that Tigers were rare and that he never once saw a Panther. According to him the formula for defeating Tigers was simple: blow off the tracks, and then wheel around behind it and put one up its arse while it couldn't move.

The real threat was the 88 millimeter artillery pieces - that was the real killer of Sherman's in the war, according to this guy.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:03 am

Xcalibur wrote: yes, but. Never enough, too little, too late... horrible mechanical problems, quality control.


From memory the USA produced 48,000 Shermans, during the war compared to 7,800 Panzer IVs, 5,000 Panther variants and 2000 Tiger E & B variants. Considering the Russians produced over 50,000 T-34 variants and the Germans had to spread their armour over many fronts, the Germans didn't stand a chance.

As for quality the English "got it right" just after the war with the Centurion and the USA just got it right with the M26 Pershing.

My understanding is that you can't make a perfect tank as it is always a four way trade off between armour, armament, mobility and cost. My gut feeling is that this is sort of the same problem as sea warfare with cruisers, destroyers, battleships and so on. It's weird because the logic seems to also exist in evolution where slight mutations or variations get a short term advantage before the other species comes up with its "mutation."

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:13 am

Jeff_36 wrote: he said that Tigers were rare and that he never once saw a Panther.
Generally Tigers were in special assignable work groups and only very late in the war were Panthers part of normal armoured divisions.

The Leibstandarte Movie
I bought it to look at the armour and it was terrible. It started by stealing the artistic bits of Terrence Malick's Thin Red Line with recited deep and meaningful poetry while the camera filmed trees. It then reduced to the same fifty or so hobby re creationists running around the same three settings. Basically the film didn't have any plot or story line.

I'm now not even sure if it was a real Panther in the film (the tracks were wrong) and although there was a Tiger it didn't seem to move.
:D

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:16 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:2) The Soviets used masses of US tanks.

The Soviets didn't like US tanks, they called them "coffins for seven brothers" and "Ronson lighters." They preferred their own tanks, they only used any tanks they received for training purposes. Frankly, their tanks were better.


An old Canadian tanker I spoke to a few years ago told me that whoever designed the Sherman should have been hanged for treason. In hindsight it was a horrific vehicle and I'm amazed that the allies won at all despite being saddled with them.


The Americans mass produced them, they were a reasonable match for anything the Germans produced up until about 1942, however, the Panther and Tiger tanks tore through them like paper.


he said that Tigers were rare and that he never once saw a Panther. According to him the formula for defeating Tigers was simple: blow off the tracks, and then wheel around behind it and put one up its arse while it couldn't move.

The real threat was the 88 millimeter artillery pieces - that was the real killer of Sherman's in the war, according to this guy.


Yes, easy to blow off a track....but miss and the Tiger would flatten anything the US or Brits put out.

The Tiger used a variant of the .88:




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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:31 am

Xcalibur wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:2) The Soviets used masses of US tanks.

The Soviets didn't like US tanks, they called them "coffins for seven brothers" and "Ronson lighters." They preferred their own tanks, they only used any tanks they received for training purposes. Frankly, their tanks were better.


An old Canadian tanker I spoke to a few years ago told me that whoever designed the Sherman should have been hanged for treason. In hindsight it was a horrific vehicle and I'm amazed that the allies won at all despite being saddled with them.


The Americans mass produced them, they were a reasonable match for anything the Germans produced up until about 1942, however, the Panther and Tiger tanks tore through them like paper.


yes, but. Never enough, too little, too late... horrible mechanical problems, quality control.

Especially this model. Easy handling, tho.

Spoiler:
Image

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:03 am

Sigh.

https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2017/04/26/eisenhowers-death-camp-for-german-soldiers/#comments

I dislike arguing with someone who went through a bad experience but this idea that Eisenhower ran "death camps" is ridiculous.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Xcalibur » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:37 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Sigh.

https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2017/04/26/eisenhowers-death-camp-for-german-soldiers/#comments

I dislike arguing with someone who went through a bad experience but this idea that Eisenhower ran "death camps" is ridiculous.


This is such an old saw there, as is the other as above. You can find debunking stuff at AHF going back 17 years. It's the online equivalent of having a toilet barf back at you.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby iwh » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:34 am

You'd be amazed the amount of people who subscribe to the bull {!#%@}....even though the original premise has been long busted.

I know a guy whose only means of defense against the Ambrose/Bischof rebuttal of Bacque is to attempt to destroy Ambrose's credibility by bringing up the plagiarism accusations of 2002 and the "he couldn't have interviewed Eisenhower on such and such a day because Eisenhower wasn't at home" accusations of 2010. When pointed out that the historians who included their works in "Eisenhower and the German POWs" did so after independent study, said man would state they were all in it together...a case of "guilt by association".

Iwh

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:30 pm

I've corresponded with Mr. Stolpmann on and off the last couple of years.

Here is his blog:

http://dachaukz.blogspot.com/2017/04/dachau-kz-satellite-camps-part-16.html?m=0

Carolyn Yeager loathes him because he is a German who doesn't deny the Holocaust. To the horror of the FG crowd we discussed his personal experiences with the deportation of German Jews. His uncles served on the Eastern Front. While on leave they talked about the rumors they heard of mass killings of foreign Jews.

Needless to say this didn't go over very well. They tread lightly around him because he is an honest-to-God real German but they don't like some of the things he has to say.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:42 pm

Xcalibur wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Sigh.

https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2017/04/26/eisenhowers-death-camp-for-german-soldiers/#comments

I dislike arguing with someone who went through a bad experience but this idea that Eisenhower ran "death camps" is ridiculous.


This is such an old saw there, as is the other as above. You can find debunking stuff at AHF going back 17 years. It's the online equivalent of having a toilet barf back at you.


I recall similar crap at AHF.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:44 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Needless to say this didn't go over very well. They tread lightly around him because he is an honest-to-God real German but they don't like some of the things he has to say.


Spot on. The same can easily be said for the source of the leak that inspired the Vendel report, or any others like them really.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:48 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Needless to say this didn't go over very well. They tread lightly around him because he is an honest-to-God real German but they don't like some of the things he has to say.


Spot on. The same can easily be said for the source of the leak that inspired the Vendel report, or any others like them really.


It's always funny when a German pops up and confirms that everything we discuss is true. It throws the denier crowd into a tizzy. The only thing they can say is that the German is brainwashed.


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