Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"

Postby Denying-History » Fri Sep 16, 2016 6:34 pm

Here is a breakdown of the deaths of German POW's provided by Ambrose.

Image

I think it would be good to mention that Offical American Statistics were 3,053 dead.

The total of Registered deaths in total was 5,311 (4,537 in the 6 largest camps and 744 in all the other camps).

[Eisenhower and the German POWs page 149]

Also mind after they were done with the temporary enclosures they moved into camps which looked like this.

Image

Looks like the perfect place to starve people do death right?

The thing is that just to finish this off that I will say that Bacques writing would be an amazing historical work as if found a genocide which was completely hidden from the human race for 70 years. The issue is that he found no such genocide. He just got excited and tried his best to write a historical work. His methods have been ruled out as faulty and the reasoning he uses is not what I would argue to be rational, as it takes a large amount of faith to believe the allies to create a fake world wide food shortage.
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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 6:37 pm

Balsamo wrote:April in the Rheinland is not what one would call the summer. There is a European saying that could be roughly translated to "In April, keep your sweater on". Seriously, nights are cold, it is still rainy, and the inmates were exhausted soldiers who fought through the winter, in their dirty uniforms, full of lice, gather in tens of thousands stacks in open air fields. Most were sleeping in holes dig in the mud... There are videos available by the way. Muddy meadows in spring and eventually dusty deserts in summer..Oh and there were no real water installation within the camps...Water was distributed by tanks.


You are correct about the weather and I've changed that line appropriately.....naturally I gave you credit. :lol:
I've brought up the fact that one of the soldiers captured stated that they received no water for four days and no food for five.


Balsamo wrote:To sum up my views: Genocide? nope, but incompetence, indifference and a sentiment of vengeance turned the first years of the occupation into a form of criminal mess. Some measures were indeed criminal.
By 1945, no real decision had been taken about what to do with Germany. And as a matter of fact, criminal decisions were made based on the pernicious concept of "collective guilt".


I don't think you've considered some other facts. I agree, there was anger, incompetence, perhaps indifference. But there were other factors involved as well.

Some of those factors included the following:
1) All of Europe was experiencing a food shortage.
2) The allies split Germany in two, separating in the industrial West from the food producing East. The Soviets controlled the food in the East and refused to exchange the food from the East for the products in the West.
3) Food producing areas in Western Germany did not have the surplus to send to the other occupation zones.
4) The British and French had food shortages of their own, leaving them less to import into their occupation zones.

So, while I agree there were deliberate factors involved, there were also factors outside of the British, French and US control. This not only involved the POWs but the German people as a whole.
BTW, to cover some of the issues you've raised I've altered the name of this post.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"

Postby Balsamo » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:59 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balsamo wrote:This is maybe one occasion to leave the well known Nazi crimes aside.

Probably not. I was replying to Jeff_36's point with what you quoted. Also, I was hoping to pre-empt further use of false analogies, like those summarized in the links in the OP. By trying to think through what are the hallmarks of a genocidal (using the term a little loosely) policy towards POWs and what such a policy might look like in general. The features of the well-known crimes were something I wished to list out.

Besides we're just discussing a topic and its various links. No harm in exploring related issues, at least in my opinion, or bringing to the thread what can be learned from what's well known.

So I will just keep posting what I'd like, if anything catches my eye, I hope that's ok with you.


Sorry if i offended you...
But the OT being called Eisenhower's "death camp", i saw no reason to speak about the Criminals orders which have been already discussed in length, contrary to the first year occupation of Germany.
I meant that giving the absence of Deniers participating in this thread, one could maybe concentrate on the topic, as there is no need to remind me how badly Russian PoW's were treated and murdered.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:04 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balsamo wrote:This is maybe one occasion to leave the well known Nazi crimes aside.

Probably not. I was replying to Jeff_36's point with what you quoted. Also, I was hoping to pre-empt further use of false analogies, like those summarized in the links in the OP. By trying to think through what are the hallmarks of a genocidal (using the term a little loosely) policy towards POWs and what such a policy might look like in general. The features of the well-known crimes were something I wished to list out.

Besides we're just discussing a topic and its various links. No harm in exploring related issues, at least in my opinion, or bringing to the thread what can be learned from what's well known.

So I will just keep posting what I'd like, if anything catches my eye, I hope that's ok with you.


Sorry if i offended you...
But the OT being called Eisenhower's "death camp", i saw no reason to speak about the Criminals orders which have been already discussed in length, contrary to the first year occupation of Germany.
I meant that giving the absence of Deniers participatingad in this thread, one could maybe concentrate on the topic, as there is no need to remind me how badly Russian PoW's were treated and murdered.


I've adjusted the title of this post to address the issues you brought up.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"

Postby Balsamo » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:09 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:Found the commissar order:

Image



Note that this is not the Kommissarbefehl, but interesting instruction that the orders and detailed instructions are only to be distributed to the high level of command, and then transmitted only "orally" (by mouth) to the lower levels of command.

thanks for that.
;)

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:12 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balsamo wrote:This is maybe one occasion to leave the well known Nazi crimes aside.

Probably not. I was replying to Jeff_36's point with what you quoted. Also, I was hoping to pre-empt further use of false analogies, like those summarized in the links in the OP. By trying to think through what are the hallmarks of a genocidal (using the term a little loosely) policy towards POWs and what such a policy might look like in general. The features of the well-known crimes were something I wished to list out.

Besides we're just discussing a topic and its various links. No harm in exploring related issues, at least in my opinion, or bringing to the thread what can be learned from what's well known.

So I will just keep posting what I'd like, if anything catches my eye, I hope that's ok with you.


Sorry if i offended you...
But the OT being called Eisenhower's "death camp", i saw no reason to speak about the Criminals orders which have been already discussed in length, contrary to the first year occupation of Germany.
I meant that giving the absence of Deniers participating in this thread, one could maybe concentrate on the topic, as there is no need to remind me how badly Russian PoW's were treated and murdered.

You didn't offend me at all. You missed the point. And now again, after I explained it. Carry on.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/Treatment of German POWs

Postby Aaron Richards » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:41 pm

This great website might be of help:

http://www.1000dokumente.de/index.html? ... &nav=&l=de
"...we had the duty towards our Volk (the German people) to kill this Volk (the Jewish people) that wanted to kill us." - Himmler in his 1943 Posen speech reminding any future holocaust denier how absurd their beliefs really are.
I compile rebuttals to popular holocaust denier canards here: http://imgur.com/a/725A7

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"

Postby Balsamo » Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:14 pm

Denying-History wrote:Niall Ferguson said that 0.15% of the German POW's died. No where close to the numbers that Bacque claimed... Bacques argument relies mostly on the title "Other Losses" which he still believes to have been intentional. The Major issue in his logic Balsamo is he completely ignored Fact's against Falsehood. His number of 1 million Germans in camps is nothing compared to his claim of 9.3 million in Crimes and Mercies.

To Believe Bacques story you need to believe that the western allies had the power which the holocaust deniers say they had. They would have to some how be able to fabricated the worldwide food shortage in 1945-47. Bacque argues that the world food production was “97 per cent of normal”. (Bacque, 124)

He argues that the Morgenthau Plan “assured the prolonged starvation of Germans.” Even though Eisenhower wouldn't have the authority to authorize it. I think one should take into account that Eisenhower “had never been trained at West Point on what to do with such masses of prisoners.” (Ambrose and Bischof, 8) Any decision to starve these people would need to come from Roosevelt, Stalin, and Churchill.



I have written above that Bacque reasoning was not only hard to follow, but even more to believe. My opinion is that his conclusions are BS but the elements on which he based them are nevertheless disturbing enough to be clarified, and that is what most of the rebuttals DO NOT DO.

Bacque is clearly far away from being a qualified historian, he seems more like those journalists eager to make a scoop.

Regarding the 9.3 millions number proposed in "crimes and mercies", this is the global number of German loss of population in Germany between 1945 and 1950.
As i have explained above, he assumed that the 1.1 million pows who are still declared missing after the release of the PoW's in Russian hands (1953). That is the 1.4 million proposed by Chancellor Adenauer in 1950-51, minus those found in the Soviet CSSA archives, which explained the deadly fate of 350.000 of those 1.4 million. Hence, 1.1 million are still missing, and as he considers the CSSA files as reliable and exact, those 1.1 million must have disappeared while in Western allies hands.
Now i am not adhering to his thesis that those were deliberately killed by the US occupation forces.
But the question remains: Where did they go?
The question should sound familiar, and i hope you are not expecting an answer like "They are where Germans are, right?"

The second part of the 9.3 million figures are from those Germans expelled from all around central and eastern Europe, this is perhaps the most documented chapter of the tragedy. And i can only recommend the reading of R.M DOUGLAS " Orderly and Humane" about the expulsion of 15.000.000 Germans...Again, the death toll - considering the little interest outside Germany are difficult to make...the minimum starts at 500.000 and the reasonable maximum at 2.500.000, although some sources goes up to 6.000.000...

Then comes the third and last part of that 9.3 figure, which are those civilians who died from - according to Bacque - preventable starvation and health issues. He bases his estimation on the two census held in Germany in 1946 and 1950, and which clearly shows a "hole" in the population. A hole he defines as not reported. His estimates of the hole is around 5.7 millions.

By unreported, he means that the official statistic issued by the occupation administration, like the 12.1 %% (per thousands) death rate does not match the demographic data.

Now i have only like 40 pages left to read of this book, but so far i have not read a single reference to a genocide.

That being said,
the three pillars ( questions) of his book are - in my opinion worth looking into, i am not interested by Bacque almost impossible to understand answers.

I have already addressed some of his arguments regarding the strange things among the official documents regarding the pows.

So to conclude this thread, let's addressed the 12.1%% official death rate for the US zone. What kind of twilight zone was the American Zone in Germany? 12.1%% as noted by Bacque is barely above the pre-war situation, and is even under the level enjoyed by Germany in the 1960's.
Meanwhile not so far from this zone, in Vienna, General Clark was reporting for Vienna a death rate between 27%% and 35%% in 1946, while assuring the population with 1550 calories per day.
In an other part of the US zone, the village of Marktoberdorf (in the countryside of Augsburg), had a death rate of 27%% in 1946, 24%% in 1947
This is even more silly as Governor Clay admitted that the ration within his zone were between 1100 and 1500 cpd ( that was less than in Vienna)?

So the difference between 12.1%% and a hypothetical number at least twice that high, is what he means by "unreported"...

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"

Postby Balsamo » Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:27 pm

OUps this one has not been posted...sorry

Jeffk 1970 wrote:From "Excorcising Hitler"
Chapter 7 "The Price"
Frederick Taylor points out that the change of status for the German POWs from Prisoners of War to Disarmed Enemy Forces by the US and Surrendered Enemy Personnel by the British was, to a large extent, a pragmatic one. The Geneva Convention stipulated that POWs had to be fed to the same level as British and US troops...and paid for the work they did.
Before April 1945 German POWs were shipped back to the United States. The US fed and paid those prisoners to the level required by the Geneva Convention. The problem after April 1945 was the sheer number of POWs, over 5 million by the end of the month. The JCS, not Eisenhower, ordered the change in status of these POWs so that they could feed these POWs at a more realistic level due to the food supplies available in Europe at that time.
Taylor does make a point that these POWs were initially housed in horrible conditions and that the death toll ranges wildly, from 8,000 to hundreds of thousands (though Taylor points out that the political orientation of the estimator directly correlates to the estimated dead).

I'm of the opinion that the number is probably between 56,000-78,000, based upon official numbers. While the numbers of German POWs taken in the Spring of 1945 actually exceeded the number of Sovier POWs taken during the Summer of 1941 and the Spring of 1942, the death toll was much lower due to the fact that the US was not genocidal in its outlook and the war was very close to completion.

The POWs did not have an easy time. A German POW named Fritz Mann relayed his after his capture his captors stripped him of his blanket and his rucksack. His captors placed him with 300,000 other prisoners at Gummersbach. He slept out in the open without receiving any water for four days and food for five days. His guards also abused prisoners.

There were two underlying issues at work:
One-lack of food supplies,
Two-lack of guards

At one point there were 2,400 US soldiers guarding 300,000 POWs. As a consequence the US Army drafted Displaced Persons as guards, among them Jews and Poles that understandably behaved harshly towards the Germans (I'm not condoning this behavior, I'm simply saying I understand it).

After a few weeks at the camp Mann relayed how rations improved to the point that the US set up bread ovens. On May 23rd, 1945 Eisenhower actually ordered the release of certain categories of prisoners. Pressure by the French caused these releases to cease and the French took over certain of the Rhineland Camps....but the US agreed to keep supplying these camps with rations, this continued until 1946.


Sorry, i thought that post was from Statmec, my confusion . I had very little time to dedicate to this thread.
Well, i admit that Frederick Taylor is not really a favorite of mine. But it is funny to observe that even someone - i tend to think quite biased as him (referring to his work on Dresden - was attacked for being some kind of defender of Germans vs the US forces.

Actually, his description of Remagen-Sinzig is much harder that your summary.
here are some quotes:
" Many prisoners rapidly deteriorated into skeletal figures, not easily distinguishable from the concentration camp inmates liberated by the Americans and British earlier in the spring..."

He adds that 1247 inmates were officially recorded as dying in this camp. (actually, this number probably refers to Remagen, Sinzig opened one months later and closed one month later. The two camps held around 100.000.
He adds:
" many died of dysentry-related illnesses. Some were shot trying to escape. A few others died when "sleep holes" dug by prisoners collapsed in heavy rains, burying their occupants alive".


Now even if we take the "official numbers if recorded death, considering that this {!#%@} hole existed for only two months, we are already far away from the 0.15% death rate global. And this camps - one of the most famous - was only one of many. This one held 100.000 prisoners, but the other held an additional 900.000 at least (as i mentioned, there were no registration at that stage)...so there are almost no documented foundations of those estimates.

Now as far as his two factors are concerned, indeed, Taylor pointed out as you said:
- the lack of guards
- the lack of food.

The first is quite strange considering that the Anglo-American forces were around 4.500.000 soldiers in Germany in those times. There is no explanation of why so few guards were dedicated to this task, there is no lack of manpower excuses or reason why only 2400 GI's were given the responsibility of 300.000 PoW's.
And contrary to what Taylor seems to say, it was not this little regiment who had to build those enclosures, but the inmates.
The second seems to me as the usual excuse. That will be addressed in a response to Denying-History below.
But come on, Taylor quotes one inmates who say that AFTER A FEW WEEKS! he saw some bread in the ration! Saying that he did not see any before (that is a few weeks before)...
But the, and i quote:

" Admittedly, there was only a quarter of a loaf per ten men..."


Lol...But estimates between 0.15 and 5% must be right.

But i will address Niall Ferguson in my response to Denying-History. Taylor seems fine with those number even if they are contradicted by basically his own narrative.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"

Postby Denying-History » Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:48 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Niall Ferguson said that 0.15% of the German POW's died. No where close to the numbers that Bacque claimed... Bacques argument relies mostly on the title "Other Losses" which he still believes to have been intentional. The Major issue in his logic Balsamo is he completely ignored Fact's against Falsehood. His number of 1 million Germans in camps is nothing compared to his claim of 9.3 million in Crimes and Mercies.

To Believe Bacques story you need to believe that the western allies had the power which the holocaust deniers say they had. They would have to some how be able to fabricated the worldwide food shortage in 1945-47. Bacque argues that the world food production was “97 per cent of normal”. (Bacque, 124)

He argues that the Morgenthau Plan “assured the prolonged starvation of Germans.” Even though Eisenhower wouldn't have the authority to authorize it. I think one should take into account that Eisenhower “had never been trained at West Point on what to do with such masses of prisoners.” (Ambrose and Bischof, 8) Any decision to starve these people would need to come from Roosevelt, Stalin, and Churchill.



I have written above that Bacque reasoning was not only hard to follow, but even more to believe. My opinion is that his conclusions are BS but the elements on which he based them are nevertheless disturbing enough to be clarified, and that is what most of the rebuttals DO NOT DO.

Bacque is clearly far away from being a qualified historian, he seems more like those journalists eager to make a scoop.

Regarding the 9.3 millions number proposed in "crimes and mercies", this is the global number of German loss of population in Germany between 1945 and 1950.
As i have explained above, he assumed that the 1.1 million pows who are still declared missing after the release of the PoW's in Russian hands (1953). That is the 1.4 million proposed by Chancellor Adenauer in 1950-51, minus those found in the Soviet CSSA archives, which explained the deadly fate of 350.000 of those 1.4 million. Hence, 1.1 million are still missing, and as he considers the CSSA files as reliable and exact, those 1.1 million must have disappeared while in Western allies hands.
Now i am not adhering to his thesis that those were deliberately killed by the US occupation forces.
But the question remains: Where did they go?
The question should sound familiar, and i hope you are not expecting an answer like "They are where Germans are, right?"

The second part of the 9.3 million figures are from those Germans expelled from all around central and eastern Europe, this is perhaps the most documented chapter of the tragedy. And i can only recommend the reading of R.M DOUGLAS " Orderly and Humane" about the expulsion of 15.000.000 Germans...Again, the death toll - considering the little interest outside Germany are difficult to make...the minimum starts at 500.000 and the reasonable maximum at 2.500.000, although some sources goes up to 6.000.000...

Then comes the third and last part of that 9.3 figure, which are those civilians who died from - according to Bacque - preventable starvation and health issues. He bases his estimation on the two census held in Germany in 1946 and 1950, and which clearly shows a "hole" in the population. A hole he defines as not reported. His estimates of the hole is around 5.7 millions.

By unreported, he means that the official statistic issued by the occupation administration, like the 12.1 %% (per thousands) death rate does not match the demographic data.

Now i have only like 40 pages left to read of this book, but so far i have not read a single reference to a genocide.

That being said,
the three pillars ( questions) of his book are - in my opinion worth looking into, i am not interested by Bacque almost impossible to understand answers.

I have already addressed some of his arguments regarding the strange things among the official documents regarding the pows.

So to conclude this thread, let's addressed the 12.1%% official death rate for the US zone. What kind of twilight zone was the American Zone in Germany? 12.1%% as noted by Bacque is barely above the pre-war situation, and is even under the level enjoyed by Germany in the 1960's.
Meanwhile not so far from this zone, in Vienna, General Clark was reporting for Vienna a death rate between 27%% and 35%% in 1946, while assuring the population with 1550 calories per day.
In an other part of the US zone, the village of Marktoberdorf (in the countryside of Augsburg), had a death rate of 27%% in 1946, 24%% in 1947
This is even more silly as Governor Clay admitted that the ration within his zone were between 1100 and 1500 cpd ( that was less than in Vienna)?

So the difference between 12.1%% and a hypothetical number at least twice that high, is what he means by "unreported"...


Bacque reached this number by take his so called "shortage of 5,710,095” (Bacque, 75) people and then adding 2.1 million expellees which “were not included in the official death figures” (Bacque, 84) and then adds 1.5 million POWs. The method behind how he gets the 5,710,095 missing Germans though seems crude. He reaches the number with the October 1946 and September 1950 censuses and added 4,176,430 births. He then some how concludes that 5,710,095 Germans are missing. Bacque tries to argue that the deaths of these people were concealed, as some sort of world conspiracy against the German people. (Bacque, 122-23)

This aside I would argue the numbers between "the minimum" of 500,000 and "the reasonable maximum" 2,500,000 would be the likely number that were killed. The others were most likely just lost in the relocation but were still alive.

Also I feel I only need to quote the description of the book.
More than 9 million Germans died as a result of deliberate Allied starvation and expulsion policies after World War II—one quarter of the country was annexed, and about 15 million people expelled in the largest act of ethnic cleansing the world has ever known.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"

Postby Balsamo » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:17 am

Denying-History wrote:Here is a breakdown of the deaths of German POW's provided by Ambrose.

Image

I think it would be good to mention that Offical American Statistics were 3,053 dead.

The total of Registered deaths in total was 5,311 (4,537 in the 6 largest camps and 744 in all the other camps).

[Eisenhower and the German POWs page 149]

Also mind after they were done with the temporary enclosures they moved into camps which looked like this.

Image

Looks like the perfect place to starve people do death right?

The thing is that just to finish this off that I will say that Bacques writing would be an amazing historical work as if found a genocide which was completely hidden from the human race for 70 years. The issue is that he found no such genocide. He just got excited and tried his best to write a historical work. His methods have been ruled out as faulty and the reasoning he uses is not what I would argue to be rational, as it takes a large amount of faith to believe the allies to create a fake world wide food shortage.


Those numbers are close to absurdity. So let's just leave the crappy accusation of Genocide aside and concentrate on those numbers? On what sources are they based on as it seems no nominal registration were ever made for those hordes of DEF? Does it count the one who died in the camps hospitals hospital (for which by the way statistics seems to be available partly at least)? the french numbers are insane, by the way, any explanation of what "relache sur place" or "released on the spot" means? Nope.

So according to Taylor, 1230 inmates died in two months at Remagen out of 50 to 100.000, but only 3700 out to the remaining 900.000 (that is 0.37%), while the German civilians were dying like 8 times that fast, and that rings no bells?

the death rate in Vienna was like 2.8% with a 1.550 cpd ration, but we are to believed that those Def's with a 800 cpd ratio were so strong that there was no consequences on their health?????

Now on the former pages you mentioned the Appendix A which states:
that Germany had a self sufficiency of 60-70% which is only slightly down from what is to be found in Nazi documents of 1940...Germany never was self sufficient in food, nor was Belgium, the Netherlands, etc.

So you seem to consider normal what is written in the next parragraph:
"It has been the policy of the Supreme commander that NO IMPORTED RELIEF would be issued in Germany except in extreme emergencies prejudicial to military administration and occupation"

...and that 1550 cpd would be the max...which was rarely available in the US zone...It was they got in Vienna as shown, for a death rate three times the normal. The paragraphs explains the rest of the policy...the Displaced victims would get 2000 cpd, the population 1.5 and the Pow will be fed on the devastated country. And as by that time most able men were held in those Rhineland resorts, who was left to harvest? While hundreds of thousands were sent in the UK, France, Belgium, well across the world to do the harvest there...
And as you said somewhere, the remaining PoW's in Germany would be employed to rebuild the country, as well as the civilians by the way,
And to even consider that diet between 850 to 1200 (and sometimes 1550) cpd is enough to prevent starvation is just stupid.

Here is an extract of the report of the US Department of Agriculture issued in december 1946:

" the Total output of crops in 1946 is the greatest in the history of our country. High yields are primarily responsible although the harvested acreages is farily large"


here is the full report:
http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/usda/na ... 0-1946.pdf

here are some key data:
First column the average production between 1935 and 1944, then the year 1945, last the year 1946.:

CORN: 2.6 billion 2.88 billion 3.287 billion
WHEAT 0.8 billion 1.1 billion 1.15 billion
OATS 1.12 1.53 billion 1.5 billion

You can check the two pages of detailed productions...and indeed production of rye and popcorn were down...But the title of the report is quite right...It was a the highest production in history of the USA.
As pre-war germany production was only 80% self sufficient, the number given seems to be another crazy statistic considering that Germany just lost a quarter of its best lands...

I leave it there for today

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"

Postby Denying-History » Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:32 am

Balsamo wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Here is a breakdown of the deaths of German POW's provided by Ambrose.

Image

I think it would be good to mention that Offical American Statistics were 3,053 dead.

The total of Registered deaths in total was 5,311 (4,537 in the 6 largest camps and 744 in all the other camps).

[Eisenhower and the German POWs page 149]

Also mind after they were done with the temporary enclosures they moved into camps which looked like this.

Image

Looks like the perfect place to starve people do death right?

The thing is that just to finish this off that I will say that Bacques writing would be an amazing historical work as if found a genocide which was completely hidden from the human race for 70 years. The issue is that he found no such genocide. He just got excited and tried his best to write a historical work. His methods have been ruled out as faulty and the reasoning he uses is not what I would argue to be rational, as it takes a large amount of faith to believe the allies to create a fake world wide food shortage.


Those numbers are close to absurdity. So let's just leave the crappy accusation of Genocide aside and concentrate on those numbers? On what sources are they based on as it seems no nominal registration were ever made for those hordes of DEF? Does it count the one who died in the camps hospitals hospital (for which by the way statistics seems to be available partly at least)? the french numbers are insane, by the way, any explanation of what "relache sur place" or "released on the spot" means? Nope.


Seems like they sight Böhme (in amerikanischer Hand : Europa) as a source. They also give note on the same page that the highest number given by an eyewitness was 32,000 dead. They also note that the number could have been double the number that was registered, so don't take the numbers to seriously.

Also how exactly are the french number "Insane"? Perhaps you could expand more on this. They seem to have the figure correct based on the figures provided by Niall Ferguson whom estimated 2.58% under French control. They also agree with Bacques criticism of the Buisson report.

As for released on the spot? I think this is self explanatory...

Image
(Page 152)

Also one side note which I didn't mention on page 92 Ambrose mentions the 1.1% number of 56,285 would be the MAXIMUM that could have died under the Americans.

Balsamo wrote:So according to Taylor, 1230 inmates died in two months at Remagen out of 50 to 100.000, but only 3700 out to the remaining 900.000 (that is 0.37%), while the German civilians were dying like 8 times that fast, and that rings no bells?

the death rate in Vienna was like 2.8% with a 1.550 cpd ration, but we are to believed that those Def's with a 800 cpd ratio were so strong that there was no consequences on their health?????


That is interesting but this is what one should expect with a food shortage. 300,000 civilians died of this food shortage / Famine in the soviet union, does that mean these people were deliberately starved? Not exactly. Nor does it exactly remove my point of Bacques 5,710,095 missing Germans. One again needs to take into account the shortage of food that existed, that doesn't mean it was deliberate. The Germans being expelled could be argued as intentional but I see no reason to suspect the western powers of deliberately starving these people. SHAEF actually predicted this catastrophic food shortage stating “the plight of the 4,500,000 inhabitants of the three Western provinces [of Germany] will become absolutely catastrophic” (Ambrose and Bischof, 97). Have you also taken into account the destroyed shipping and transportation networks? I could also point out that the disappearance of essential coal reserves made fertilizer production impossible!

While I agree there was some issues with the system put together by the Americans, I would blame it mostly on underestimating the number of people they would have to hold. As Gunter Bischof and Brian Loring Villa stated: "there was NO AMERICAN POLICY to starve them to death...and NO COVER UP either after the war. No question about it, there were individual American camp guards who took revenge on German POWs based on their hatred of the Nazis." I would also apply this to German Civilians.


Balsamo wrote:Now on the former pages you mentioned the Appendix A which states:
that Germany had a self sufficiency of 60-70% which is only slightly down from what is to be found in Nazi documents of 1940...Germany never was self sufficient in food, nor was Belgium, the Netherlands, etc.

So you seem to consider normal what is written in the next parragraph:
"It has been the policy of the Supreme commander that NO IMPORTED RELIEF would be issued in Germany except in extreme emergencies prejudicial to military administration and occupation"


Mind this document was from 1945 It also says "Germany except in extreme emergencies". I also don't take it as a huge deal as #4 mentions the distribution of food. They were rationed 700 to 1190 calories per head per day. Its not perfect but it is rationing to an entire nation. As Stephen Ambrose put it "had badly underestimated the number of German soldiers surrendering to the Western Allies; more than five million, instead of the anticipated three million as German soldiers crossed the Elbe River to escape the Russians." Ambrose also pointed out that Eisenhower underestimated the number of "German civilians—about 13 million altogether crossing the Elbe to escape the Russians". This means he didn't estimate for 18 million people... It seems impossible that Eisenhower could foresee such a number.

And to even consider that diet between 850 to 1200 (and sometimes 1550) cpd is enough to prevent starvation is just stupid.


I never argued it could prevent starvation... It was a provisional measure from what I am aware.

Balsamo wrote:Here is an extract of the report of the US Department of Agriculture issued in december 1946:

" the Total output of crops in 1946 is the greatest in the history of our country. High yields are primarily responsible although the harvested acreages is farily large"


here is the full report:
http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/usda/na ... 0-1946.pdf

here are some key data:
First column the average production between 1935 and 1944, then the year 1945, last the year 1946.:

CORN: 2.6 billion 2.88 billion 3.287 billion
WHEAT 0.8 billion 1.1 billion 1.15 billion
OATS 1.12 1.53 billion 1.5 billion

You can check the two pages of detailed productions...and indeed production of rye and popcorn were down...But the title of the report is quite right...It was a the highest production in history of the USA.
As pre-war germany production was only 80% self sufficient, the number given seems to be another crazy statistic considering that Germany just lost a quarter of its best lands...

I leave it there for today


Dilapidated or destroyed farm equipment, inoperable production factories, a drastic reduction of manpower, a variety of other factors also would play a role in this reduction. (Ambrose and Bischof, 104)

It also would take two weeks to deliver food from the United states, and France and England didn't have food to spare.
Last edited by Denying-History on Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:58 am

Balsamo wrote:Sorry, i thought that post was from Statmec, my confusion . I had very little time to dedicate to this thread.
Well, i admit that Frederick Taylor is not really a favorite of mine. But it is funny to observe that even someone - i tend to think quite biased as him (referring to his work on Dresden - was attacked for being some kind of defender of Germans vs the US forces.

Actually, his description of Remagen-Sinzig is much harder that your summary.
here are some quotes:
Many prisoners rapidly deteriorated into skeletal figures, not easily distinguishable from the concentration camp inmates liberated by the Americans and British earlier in the spring..."
He adds that 1247 inmates were officially recorded as dying in this camp. (actually, this number probably refers to Remagen, Sinzig opened one months later and closed one month later. The two camps held around 100.000.
He adds:
many died of dysentry-related illnesses. Some were shot trying to escape. A few others died when "sleep holes" dug by prisoners collapsed in heavy rains, burying their occupants alive".


Sure. But why does that presuppose a drastically higher death toll? Instead of 1247, are we saying 2,000? 3,000? 10,000? I'm not saying the death toll wasn't higher. But how much higher?
Taylor says (and you repeat below) that the camp only existed for two months. Mann even said they started receiving food and water within five days.

Balsamo wrote:Now even if we take the "official numbers if recorded death, considering that this {!#%@} hole existed for only two months, we are already far away from the 0.15% death rate global. And this camps - one of the most famous - was only one of many. This one held 100.000 prisoners, but the other held an additional 900.000 at least (as i mentioned, there were no registration at that stage)...so there are almost no documented foundations of those estimates.

Now as far as his two factors are concerned, indeed, Taylor pointed out as you said:
- the lack of guards
- the lack of food.

The first is quite strange considering that the Anglo-American forces were around 4.500.000 soldiers in Germany in those times. There is no explanation of why so few guards were dedicated to this task, there is no lack of manpower excuses or reason why only 2400 GI's were given the responsibility of 300.000 PoW's.
And contrary to what Taylor seems to say, it was not this little regiment who had to build those enclosures, but the inmates.


You need to factor in demobilization and transfers of troops to the Pacific. From a high of 12,000,000 soldiers in 1945 the US reduced its forces to about 1.5 million in 1947 (this is for all branches). So, there was a shortage of manpower to guard these camps.


Balsamo wrote:The second seems to me as the usual excuse.


Are you saying that there wasn't a food shortage?
Why is this an excuse? It was true. Everyone in Europe experienced rationing, not just the German POWs or German people.

Balsamo wrote:That will be addressed in a response to Denying-History below.
But come on, Taylor quotes one inmates who say that AFTER A FEW WEEKS! he saw some bread in the ration! Saying that he did not see any before (that is a few weeks before)...


They started receiving "K" Rations within five days. Granted, not the greatest thing to eat but I'm willing to bet inmates starving in concentration camps or on death marches would have loved Spam.
Look, essentially I'm not going to disagree with the basic premise, German POWs had a hard time in the camps. A lot of them died.....I'm willing to entertain the idea of fairly high numbers. But, what are the numbers we are entertaining here? 100,000? 200,000? Sorry, seems way too high.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:50 pm

Savage Continent by Keith Lowe (highly recommended if you haven't read it yet)
Chapter 11, German Prisoners of War
Pgs. 113-116

Essentially Lowe and Taylor agree that the conditions were very bad in the 16 major POW camps in the Rhineland. Lowe describes how in many of the camps there was often no food or water for days....or, if it was available, inadequate. Lowe describes how in one camp, Bad Kreuznach,
"There was no bread for six weeks......Until then the daily ration consisted of three spoonfuls of vegetables, one spoon of fish, one or two prunes, one spoonful of marmalade and four to six biscuits."

The prisoners were forced to forage, making soups out of nettles and dandelions. They also ate raw turnips. This diet caused a massive outbreak of dysentery. This compounded the problem of a lack of toilet paper and proper latrines dug in the camps.

There was a lack of water, reducing the POWs to drinking their own urine. At Bad Kreuznach there was one tap for 56,000 men.

Lowe concedes that the mortality rate was high but it does not equal 1,000,000, 800,000 or even 500,000 men.

Lowe believes and I agree, that Bacque was correct in investigating this. His issue (and mine) is that Bacque inflated the numbers.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:06 pm

Balsamo wrote:First the Dutch were not the only one starving, and i never said that the vast majority of the population was not relieved that the war was finally over.


Well, they still send us flowers every May so I imagine it was more than just relief at the war being over. It was a liberation.

Just that behind those joyful scenes, nasty events were about to take place. (but i won't get into the epuration in this thread)
.

Are you referring to reprisals against treasonous collaborators? I would tell you what I feel about that but I suppose you could guess by now ;)

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Balsamo » Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:12 pm

Are you referring to reprisals against treasonous collaborators? I would tell you what I feel about that but I suppose you could guess by now ;)


No Jeff,
I was referring to extra legal vendettas that sometime ( most of times actually) hit hard innocent people.
I was referring to the Belgian government arresting almost 10% of its population in a surge of paranoia, placing them in Concentration camps, and through infamous trial ending up executing almost more Belgian citizens than the Nazis, depriving some of their civic rights, confiscating their assets...taking example of the barbarians...As a Canadian, you just don't know {!#%@} about the post-war period, sorry to say.
I don't feel any pity for those who were guilty. But some guilty were not reached while some innocent were killed.

Oh and by the way, my family was one of the most regarded after the war, having lost many of its members or in action, or in Nazi concentration camps. But even my uncle liberated from Dachau (2 years) and who has lost his wife at Ravensbruck (early 45), told me that after the Joy came disgraceful times...

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Nov 12, 2016 3:51 am

Balsamo wrote:As a Canadian, you just don't know {!#%@} about the post-war period, sorry to say.


All I know is what my Dutch Great-Aunt told me. And a few others as well. They were jubilant, by all accounts.

As for what you referred to, I agree that the action of the Belgian government was excessive. If anyone has the right to make comment it is your uncle, who can be called a hero. But I have no sympathy for the Remi Schjrillins and the Leon Dregelles. They are to me worse than evil. It is not for no reason that Dante reserved the innermost circle of Hell for Judas, Brutus, and Cassius, those who had turned on their friends.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Balsamo » Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:36 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Balsamo wrote:As a Canadian, you just don't know {!#%@} about the post-war period, sorry to say.


All I know is what my Dutch Great-Aunt told me. And a few others as well. They were jubilant, by all accounts.

As for what you referred to, I agree that the action of the Belgian government was excessive. If anyone has the right to make comment it is your uncle, who can be called a hero. But I have no sympathy for the Remi Schjrillins and the Leon Dregelles. They are to me worse than evil. It is not for no reason that Dante reserved the innermost circle of Hell for Judas, Brutus, and Cassius, those who had turned on their friends.


I guess you mean Remy Schrijnen?
Well he was a SS volunteer who spent most of the occupation at the front...Not really a "collaborateur" in my definition...He was arrested, tried, sentenced to death and liberated...after serving what 2 or 3 years? As for Degrelle, he was mocking the Belgian government all his live from his cosy villa in Spain.

My opposition is not against bringing traitors to Justice, but what is known as the "Epuration" is not just putting well known collaborationists on trial...It also covered "extra-legal" vendetta, most of the times motivated by greed or personal reasons. I have nothing against applying Justice, for high treason in this case, but the way it took place under the command of people who had spent the whole war in comfortable lodgings in Great Britain. It is a really sensitive and complex subjects. In the case of Belgium, it almost has been erased from the collective memories...Which is a mistake, in my opinion.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:22 am

Balsamo wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:[
Well he was a SS volunteer who spent most of the occupation at the front...Not really a "collaborateur" in my definition..


He was from an allied state and he fought for the axis. Open and shut.


As for Degrelle, he was mocking the Belgian government all his live from his cosy villa in Spain.


A disgusting character.

My opposition is not against bringing traitors to Justice, but what is known as the "Epuration" is not just putting well known collaborationists on trial...It also covered "extra-legal" vendetta, most of the times motivated by greed or personal reasons. I have nothing against applying Justice, for high treason in this case, but the way it took place under the command of people who had spent the whole war in comfortable lodgings in Great Britain. It is a really sensitive and complex subjects. In the case of Belgium, it almost has been erased from the collective memories...Which is a mistake, in my opinion.


My opinion is that If they are collaborators than anything goes as far as retaliation is concerned. There has to be some kind of reckoning. As for persons wrongfully accused, then I harshly condemn what was done to them.

However, I believe Dregelle should have been shot.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Balsamo » Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:26 pm


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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:58 pm


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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:05 pm

Hhhhhmmmm, is this the FG crowd?
Users browsing this forum: Jeffk 1970 and 5 guests

Don't be shy, whip up an account and join us.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"

Postby iwh » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:42 pm

Balsamo wrote:
As i have explained above, he assumed that the 1.1 million pows who are still declared missing after the release of the PoW's in Russian hands (1953). That is the 1.4 million proposed by Chancellor Adenauer in 1950-51, minus those found in the Soviet CSSA archives, which explained the deadly fate of 350.000 of those 1.4 million. Hence, 1.1 million are still missing, and as he considers the CSSA files as reliable and exact, those 1.1 million must have disappeared while in Western allies hands.
Now i am not adhering to his thesis that those were deliberately killed by the US occupation forces.
But the question remains: Where did they go?
The question should sound familiar, and i hope you are not expecting an answer like "They are where Germans are, right?"


I have been debating this issue over at Amazon UK and US for quite a while now..at least until they banned me for "spiteful " comments. The supporters of Bacque's theories have moved away from the original Ambrose/Bischof rebuttal of Bacque as found in "Eisenhower and the German POWs" and place their aspirations and hopes on Bacque's latest ground breaking discovery in the Soviet archives.

Bacque claims that the Soviets kept immaculate and extremely accurate documents on every single German soldier captured right up to the end of the war. These documents were accessed by Bacque and they show that the numbers back up his notion of 1 million missing German soldiers. If they were not in the USSR, then they must be under the banks of the Rhine or scattered all over France because every missing German soldier on the eastern front was accounted for.

So far so good. To prove his theories Bacque cites the works of Russian military historian G.F. Krivosheev. The key issue seems to be this one:

As for those missing in action and POWs, it is known that 1,939,000 German servicemen returned home after the war from the USSR alone, and that 450,600 died whilst in captivity...


Krivosheev, "Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the 20th Century" p 276.

So there we have it. The Soviets accounted for every German POW and MIA so the 1 million missing Germans could not be in the former USSR.

Except that Bacque only printed what he wants his audience to read. He missed out (in my opinion deliberately) Krivoshheev's comments about the OKW 1945 casualty figures being inaccurate due to the chaotic nature of events at the end of the war... and the fact that there will have been around 1 million missing German solders unaccounted for lying dead ON THE EASTERN FRONT. Krivosheev in his book makes it clear that he is only dealing with the casualty figures for the eastern front and not for any other theatre.

By the 1950s the Germans estimated that around 1.4 million soldiers were still MIA. Of these, 450,600 were later discovered to have died in the USSR as POWs. The rest were still under the ground on the former eastern front.

Bacque deliberately lies by omission. He does not provide us with the complete facts. Why? Because to do so would blow into tiny pieces his theory that the missing German soldiers are buried in western Germany and in France. Soviet historians like Krivosheev don't back up Bacque's theories, they destroy them.

Just for information, German POWs were not used to clear mines in France after the war; they were used to find them. The actual clearance was done by French specialists.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:56 pm

thanks Iwh, always good to hear from you, hope you're doing well . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby iwh » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:11 pm

Hi Stat...yep still around, but been fighting it out on Amazon with, among others, a guy called John Wear..the renowned "historian" and author of the "groundbreaking" book "Germany's War".

http://americanfreepress.net/new-book-f ... manys-war/

Now blocked from both the US and UK Amazon sites.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:20 pm

iwh wrote:Hi Stat...yep still around, but been fighting it out on Amazon with, among others, a guy called John Wear..the renowned "historian" and author of the "groundbreaking" book "Germany's War".

http://americanfreepress.net/new-book-f ... manys-war/

Now blocked from both the US and UK Amazon sites.


Read the description of his book, that's hysterical.

I'd ask you to invite him here....but those types no longer come around.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby iwh » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:58 pm

I can't...he posts on Amazon and I can't post there any more...

He does have the tendency to quote massive chunks from his book though. He rarely answers specific questions. If you want a peak at his modus operandi then take a look here:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R3VBMJK9YM6DVG/ref=cm_cd_pg_pg4?ie=UTF8&asin=1477231838&cdForum=Fx1E40WE8N8EQFQ&cdPage=4&cdThread=TxCC7M19X3YNLR&store=books#wasThisHelpful

try from page 3 onwards.

Beware...it makes tedious reading at times, but a variety of topics are covered.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:02 pm

kind of a greatest hits, or oldies but goodies, collection eh?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby iwh » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:08 pm

Stat...

You noticed that as well. It's what made debating with Mr wear so much fun...His stuff is so old hat...I mean...who the hell uses Leuchter, Butz, Faurisson etc etc these days...? The amusing thing was that Mattogno seemed to be too complex for him...it's why Mattogno as a source was hardly ever used.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:27 pm

My response: You seem to think that establishment historians such as Sir Richard J. Evans, Peter Longerich, Ian Kershaw and others are far more credible than historians such as Harry Elmer Barnes, David Hoggan, Wilhelm Staeglich and others. You also seem to think that Germany from the 1970s forward is some sort of free society.


Wow.

It's like time stopped.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby iwh » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:28 pm

Amazing isn't it...

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:37 pm

iwh wrote:I can't...he posts on Amazon and I can't post there any more...


I saw that a bunch of your posts were deleted.

Funny, deniers complain about "free speech" but your comments are the ones deleted.

I've had this problem, I tried debating a denier in a comment section. His posts got through, none of mine did.

This is why I invite them here, all of our deniers left us.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby iwh » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:42 pm

I've written to Amazon for an explanation...they are currently investigating my concerns...

We'll see what happens....

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby NathanC » Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:07 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Amazon Douchebag wrote:My response: You seem to think that establishment historians such as Sir Richard J. Evans, Peter Longerich, Ian Kershaw and others are far more credible than historians such as Harry Elmer Barnes, David Hoggan, Wilhelm Staeglich and others. You also seem to think that Germany from the 1970s forward is some sort of free society.


Wow.

It's like time stopped.


Lol. Staeglich was supposed to be a judge, wasn't he? Anyone who knows anything knows that the very law in Germany - the "base motives" requirement - was skewed in favor of the defendants. To get either slaps on the wrists or nothing at all, all the defendants had to do was swear, honest to god, that they didn't hate the Jews while killing them, or harbored secret doubts while doing so. The courts, the police and the defense (themselves heavily staffed by Ex Nazis) had absolutely no problem buying their stories and even paid some of the defendants for "wasting their time". A judge like Staeglich naturally had the gall to promote the idea of an evil plot to "frame" the poor Germans while all this was happening. Give me a break.

I've never read any of Staeglich's BS, and nor do I intend to any time soon, but I honestly hate the guy already. Being part of a rigged system (a former judge) and ignoring the well known rigging to promote BS is nothing less than a lie. Like I told dumbass EtienneSC before, Staeglich pretty much lied every time he opened his mouth or wrote something down. The Amazon Douchebag who touts him as some kind of divine gospel is a liar, too.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:18 pm

NathanC wrote:I've never read any of Staeglich's BS, and nor do I intend to any time soon, but I honestly hate the guy already.


I did, a while back. Jim Rizoli sent me the PDF "A Judge Looks at the Evidence." This was during my agreeable phase when I was willing to read denier garbage.

An utter waste of time. Staeglich made the same tired arguments deniers make, stuff was forged, the "exaggerated numbers," etc. It was by the numbers stuff you can get from any denier source. It was also about 400 pages.

I read one more Rizoli suggestion, "The Bad War" by M.S King. That ended my agreeable phase for good. After that I decided that life is too short to waste on crap I can read in much shorter form at places like CODOH or Inconvenient History. I really don't do that anymore unless someone like Monstrous links to it.

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Jeff_36
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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:29 pm

iwh wrote:Just for information, German POWs were not used to clear mines in France after the war; they were used to find them. The actual clearance was done by French specialists.


The Finns were known to use Russian POW's as mine stompers. It really was just an axis thing, mostly.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby iwh » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:50 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:

I read one more Rizoli suggestion, "The Bad War" by M.S King.


This has to be one of the worst denier books ever written! It is so bad even members at CODOH think its crap!! A truly awful book closely followed by Benton Bradberry's "Myth of German Villainy"... A pure Jew hate fest.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:08 pm

iwh wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:

I read one more Rizoli suggestion, "The Bad War" by M.S King.


This has to be one of the worst denier books ever written! It is so bad even members at CODOH think its crap!! A truly awful book closely followed by Benton Bradberry's "Myth of German Villainy"... A pure Jew hate fest.



A couple of things that stood out, strictly by memory:

1) Hitler wanted to send the Jews to the beautiful, tropical island of Madagascar.

Yeah, real beautiful for Northern European Jews unused to the climate. Even if this had come to pass it would have decimated any Jewish population sent there.

2) The Soviets used masses of US tanks.

The Soviets didn't like US tanks, they called them "coffins for seven brothers" and "Ronson lighters." They preferred their own tanks, they only used any tanks they received for training purposes. Frankly, their tanks were better.

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:47 pm

But they were Communist tanks . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Eisenhower's "Death Camps"/US Teatment of German POWs

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:10 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:But they were Communist tanks . . .


.......designed by degenerate Jews.

:lol:


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