Denier BS Bingo

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Re: Denier BS Bingo

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:24 pm

BRoI wrote:No, we don't, but it's entirely irrelevant as to whether the Committee of Medical Experts, or someone else, found corpses with tell-tale signs of CO poisoning. So why bother posting it? Are you attempting to derail the discussion?

It's relevant to where the corpses you mentioned may have been found. I have no idea what derailing the "discussion" has to do with responding to what's been posted.

BRoI wrote:LOL. So, going forward, are we to see a new SM, one that disdainfully dismisses published literature and only posts information from primary sources he's personally consulted in archives around the globe?

A silly and illogical leap on your part - you made a claim ("But the medical committee said no such thing") which isn't apparent in the secondary literature, so I assumed that you had read the primary source. You didn't, no problem.

(I'm not knowledgeable about the medical issues involved with autopsies and CO; I have read at HC and elsewhere about autopsies of the exhumed corpses of gas van victims showing signs of CO poisoning, so the finding at Majdanek didn't strike me as unusual.)
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Re: Denier BS Bingo

Postby nickterry » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:32 pm

BRoI wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:So Mattogno contradicts himself, ok.

It's more likely just a mistake, he forgot to mention on p.93 that some of the corpses [or just skulls] were excavated in Majdanek.

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I believe that in the communique these 733 corpses are given as examples of shooting victims, some possibly shot in the Krepiecki Woods, nothing more.

Nope. The communique, quoting the Committee of Medical Experts, says of the 467 corpses and 266 skulls [total 733] they examined, 342 "revealed traces of firearm wounds ... indicating that it was a wide practice in the camp to shot [sic] prisoners, mainly in the back of the head, at close ranoge [sic], with weapons of 0.9 cm. calibre."

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I don't have the medical committee's reports - just the communique, which I quoted, and Holland's thesis, which comments on the committee's work. What does the medical committee say in its reports about autopsies?

I only know what's quoted in the communique or by Mattogno.

Considering you've argued repeatedly that gassings at Majdanek ceased in the autumn of 1943, what tell-tale signs of poisoning by CO would be found in corpses that had been buried at least 10-11 months before the PS-committee excavated them in August 1944?


The medical committee did indeed note that they found corpses - three - in the vicinity of the crematorium, which showed signs of CO poisoning.

Akt sudebno-meditsinskoi ekspertizy, 1944 goda, avgusta 24 dnia, gorod Liublin, GARF 7021-107-9,pp.301-305, here p.302:

"... znachitel'nogo kolichestva trupov bez priznakov smertel'nykh povrezhdenii i obnaruzhenie sredi nikh na territorii krematoriia trekh trupov s kharakternymi priznakami otravleniia skis'iu ugleroda /CO/..."

"a large number of corpses without signs of fatal injuries and detection [sic] among them on the territory of the crematorium of three corpses with characteristic signs of carbon monoxide poisoning"

Mattogno doesn't cite this document, although he cites other reports from the same file. The report also details the examination of corpses found near the camp which had been shot, as relayed in the communique and overall report.

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Re: Denier BS Bingo

Postby BRoI » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:59 pm

Well, that changes everything.

Is that transliterated Russian?
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: Denier BS Bingo

Postby nickterry » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:40 pm

BRoI wrote:Well, that changes everything.

Is that transliterated Russian?


Yes, transliterated and quickly translated by me from the Russian report. The gist is conveyed, I hope - given the communique's mention of the same thing, this shows this wasn't added in at the editing stage but was something noted in the medico-legal report, however briefly.

There isn't a file of autopsy protocols in the Majdanek opis 107 within ChGK fond 7021, unlike the complete run of autopsy protocols for the bodies found on-site at Auschwitz in the Auschwitz opis 108. However, Auschwitz seems to be the exception to the rule, as essentially every other medico-legal report in other ChGK files I've seen for the occupied USSR follows the same model of a summary of findings rather than presenting raw data, which likely indicates what was preserved as well as the usually blindingly obvious forensic results - open up part of a mass grave, find bodies that had obviously been shot or starved, write report.

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Re: Denier BS Bingo

Postby BRoI » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:26 am

nickterry wrote:
BRoI wrote:Well, that changes everything.

Is that transliterated Russian?

Yes, transliterated and quickly translated by me from the Russian report.

Did you transliterate it?

As I understand it, the Pol-Sov Report [which of course isn't the doc you are quoting from] was written in Russian Cyrillic and features some words in Polish [Latin script with Polish diacritics].

COMMUNIQUE pp.19-20 wrote:The Committee [of Technical Experts] established that for a long time, particularly during the past two years, the Germans, in addition to burning corpses in special furnaces, widely resorted to the practice of burning corpses on bonfires within the precincts of the camp as well as in the Krembecki Woods.

[...]

Within the precincts of the ''Extermination Camp"' and in the Krembecki Woods a large number of places was found where the burning of corpses had taken place. In one of the trenches within the camp the chassis of an automobile on which corpses had been burnt was discovered after excavation.

After the exposure of the atrocities perpetrated by the Germans in the Katyn Woods, the Hitlerites set to work with increased energy to disinter the corpses from the pits and trenches, and burn them. The Committee of Medical Experts opened twenty pits of this kind; eighteen within the precincts of the Majdanek Camp and two in the Krembecki Woods. In some of the pits a large number of corpses were found which the Germans had not managed to burn.

Thus, as the result of excavations made in pit No. 1 near the crematorium, forty-two corpses were discovered; in pit No. 19 in the Krembecki Woods three hundred and sixty-eight bodies of men, women and children were found. In other pits a large number of completely decayed corpses and skeletons were found. In a number of pits a vast quantity of bones was found.


Are these 20 pits mentioned in their 4 page report, with the contents of each listed separately?

Were "three corpses with characteristic signs of carbon monoxide poisoning" among the 42 found in pit No. 1, or does "on the territory of the crematorium" mean they weren't found in a pit at all, but amongst the corpses found in the remnants of the New Crematorium:

Image
Image
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: Denier BS Bingo

Postby nickterry » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:28 am

Yes, my transliteration - everything was in Cyrillic not Latin script in the part I quoted from.

Contents of 20 pits are not listed by pit.

The corpses were found around the crematorium. They counted 114 corpses there, which were counted separately to 266 sets of body parts/skeletons, it's unclear whether that refers to just the crematorium area or other sites as well.

One would have to review more Majdanek investigation photos, or the film, to see where they meant - the photos of half-cremated skeletons are more likely to be published/used as they're more shocking.

The most likely scenario would be that as the camp was closing down, corpses were accumulating for cremation which included some victims of the CO gas chamber, most probably Poles, with some of their corpses fully incinerated, some partially cremated and some found intact, which would explain why only 3 corpses were identifiable as victims of CO poisoning. Most likely, some of the other 111 corpses were also gassing victims but couldn't be distinguished from those who had died of "normal camp causes" like hunger, disease etc.

In terms of chronology, previous discussions have revolved more around the killings of Jews at Majdanek, which would not be a major issue after November 1943 and 'Erntefest'; any gassings of Jews could only have taken place between October 1942 and October 1943. The use of the gas chamber in the final phase would more resemble Sachsenhausen or Mauthausen to execute condemned prisoners or 14 f 13-style operations to kill off unfit ones.

The communique stated among other things
https://www.jewishgen.org/forgottencamp ... rt.html#13
"The witness Zelent quoted the case of the asphyxiation by means of gas of eighty-seven Poles on March 15, 1944."

There is also the possibility that the CO victims had been killed in gas vans.

"The Polish-Soviet Extraordinary Commission has established that in addition to the gas chambers, the Germans in Lublin utilized special automobiles known as "murder vans" for the purpose of putting people to death.
The witnesses-Stetdiener, an ex-soldier of the Polish army, and Atrokhov, a Soviet prisoner of war, gave a detailed description of the machine in which the German fiends asphyxiated their victims with the aid of the exhaust gas from the engine."

The presence of a gas van is explicable due to the retreat of Sonderkommandos and Einsatzkommandos into the Generalgouvernement and thus the Lublin district during the spring of 1944; this would parallel how a gas van with identifiable license plate number went from Einsatzgruppe B to Wilno to Auschwitz in 1944 (and was then spotted by the Auschwitz camp resistance). KdS Lublin seems to have acquired a gas van from somewhere by 1944, and one can imagine a scenario in which corpses of gas van victims were offloaded onto Majdanek for cremation rather than burial. This also might explain the sudden 'glut' of corpses over and above the number of registered Majdanek prisoners who might have died of 'camp conditions' or been killed in a belated gassing.

By retreat I mean the absorption of units from Ukraine via Galicia as the more likely option; SK 4b was operating as an intact unit in the GG during the summer of 1944, to give one example. Some units of Einsatzgruppe B also successfully retreated directly westwards and seem to have been operating in the GG as well through to the autumn of 1944, still mostly attached to the frontline armies. IIRC, there are some indicators in Kriegsgliederungen for Bach-Zelewski's force suppressing the Warsaw uprising.
Eventually, such Kommandos were mostly absorbed into other Sipo commands; this was already happening in the GG as well, since individuals as well as the entire Kaukasierkompanie that had served with Einsatzgruppe D ended up as part of BdS Ost or a subordinate KdS.

At least one trial of KdS Lublin discussed the gas van there, and the presence of another gas van around Chelm is noted in the investigation of Polizeibataillon 316, which provided the guards for a 1005 detachment operating around that area.

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Re: Denier BS Bingo

Postby BRoI » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:47 pm

Thanks for that.

nickterry wrote:The most likely scenario would be that as the camp was closing down, corpses were accumulating for cremation which included some victims of the CO gas chamber, most probably Poles, with some of their corpses fully incinerated, some partially cremated and some found intact, which would explain why only 3 corpses were identifiable as victims of CO poisoning. Most likely, some of the other 111 corpses were also gassing victims but couldn't be distinguished from those who had died of "normal camp causes" like hunger, disease etc.


We have, what HC would call, "a direct witness", who said nothing about any of these final victims of Majdanek being gassed. This is from the UNWCC's records of the Nov 1945 trial of crematorium supervisor Paul Hoffmann.

Google translation:

Copy.

Document No. ____________

Protocol of witness interview.
 
On June 14, 1945, in Lublin, Maksymilian Filiński, Attorney at the Special Criminal Court in Lublin, heard the following witness - without an oath. After informing the witness about criminal liability for false testimonies and about the content of art.107 k.p.k. - the witness testified as follows:

Full name: Mordko Brafman
Age: 40 years
Parents' names: Zelman and Perl
Place of residence: 3 Olejna St., Kraśnik
Occupation: Merchant
Religion: Jewish
Record: No previous convictions
Relation to defendants: None [not sure of this]

I stayed at Majdanek in Lublin from June 7, 1944 to July 22, 1944. While I was in the Majdanek camp, I worked in the crematorium on July 22, 1944, i.e. on the day that I was deported to other people for the Vistula. I heard about Hoffmann before and I met him on that day. He was the manager of the crematorium. On July 21, 1944, the Gestapo brought four hundred and fifty people directly to the crematorium. I worked then near the crematorium. These people were brought by car. Among them were Poles, Jews, men, women and children. Everyone in turn was driven inside, where they had to undress naked. From there, they were driven to ditches, dug next to the crematorium. In those ditches, some lay on each other. They were also shot there, and twenty Jews had to carry corpses to the crematorium where they were burned. This action lasted throughout the day and night from July 21 to 22. On July 22, I was taken to throw bodies into the ovens. At first, it seemed to me that I would go mad. I was also sure that they would kill me at any moment. The heat and terrible odor of burned bodies fell directly from the legs of a man. Hoffmann urged us and told us to curl up quickly, because only 230 bodies were burned in the previous day and night. I worked until 5 o'clock in the afternoon without any food, and I could not touch anything. I saw a certain "watchman" snatch gold teeth from the corpses. In my presence, Hoffmann did not beat anyone. At 5 o'clock the "lagerführer" came and told me to stop the job. 90 dead bodies left, some in the crematorium and some in the grave. Leaving the crematorium Hoffmann, he spilled them with gasoline and set them on fire, so that the wooden barrack surrounding the stove burned completely. What else was I do not know, because as I testified, along with others in the number of about 800 people, I was driven by the Vistula. I ran down the road. Odczytano / - / Mordko Brafam / - / M. Filiński.

I testify for compliance with the original
Chief clerk:


[original text follows:]

Odpis.

Nr. akt ____________

Protokół przesłuchania świadka.

Dnia 14 czerwca 1945 r. w Lublinie Maksymilian Filiński, Prokurator Specjalnego Sądu Karnego w Lublinie przesłuchał niżej wymienionego w charakterze świadka - bez przysięgi. Po uprzedzeniu świadka o odpowiedzialności karnej za fałszywe zeznania i o treści art.107 k.p.k. - świadek zeznał co następuje:

Imię i nazwisko Mordko Brafman
Wiek lat 40
Imiona rodziców Zelman i Perla
Miejsce zamieszkania Kraśnik, ul. Olejna Nr.3
Zajęcie kupiec
Wyznanie Mojżeszowe
Karalność nie karany
Stosunek do stron obcy.

Na Majdanku w Lublinie przebywałem od 7 czerwca 1944 r. do 22 lipca 1944 r. Będąc w obozie na Majdanku pracowałem w krematorium dnia 22 lipca 1944 r., t.j. w dniu, w którym wywieziono mnie i innych za Wisłę. Przed tem o Hoffmannie słyszałem, a poznałem go wspomnianego dnia. Był on kierownikiem krematorium. Dnia 21 lipca 1944 r. gestapo przyprowadziło wprost do krematorium czterysta pięćdziesiąt osób. Pracowałem wtedy nieopodal krematorium. Ludzi tych przywieziono samochodami. Byli wśród nich Polacy, Zydzi, mężcżyni, kobiety i dzieci. Wszystkich po kolei wpędzano do wewnątrz, gdzie musieli się rozebrać do naga. Stamtąd wypędzano do rowów, wykopanych obok krematorium. W rowach tych jedni leżeli na drugich. Tam też wszystkich zastrzelono, poczym dwudziestu Zydów musiało nosić trupy do krematorium, gdzie je palono. Akcja ta trwała przez cały dzien i noc z 21 na 22 lipca. Dnia 22 lipca wzięto mnie do wrzucania ciał do pieców. W pierwszej chwili zdawało mi się, że oszaleję. Byłem też pewny, że mnie lada chwila zabiją. Upał i straszny odór palonych ciał wprost z nóg człowieka zwalał. Hoffmann popędzał nas i kazał zwijać się szybko, gdyż w ciągu poprzedniego dnia i nocy spalono tylko 230 ciał. Pracowałem tak do godziny 5 po południu bez żadnego posiłku, zresztą nie mogłem niczego się tknąć. Widziałem, jak pewien "wachman" wyrywał obcęgami trupom złote zęby. W mojej obecnosci Hoffmann nikogo nie bił. O godzinie 5-ej przyjechał "lagerfuhrer" i kazał przerwać robotę. Nie spalonych trupów pozostało około 90, część w krematorium, a część w grobie. Wychodząc z krematorium Hoffmann oblał je benzyną i podpalił, tak że barak drewniany, otaczający piec, spalił się całkowicie. Co dalej było nie wiem, gdyż jak już zeznałem, wraz z innymi w liczbie około 800 osób, pędzony byłem za Wisłę. W drodze zbiegłem. Odczytano /-/ Mordko Brafam /-/ M. Filiński.

Za zgodność z oryginałem świadczę
Kierownik Sekretariatu:
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: Denier BS Bingo

Postby nickterry » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:47 pm

Yes, Mordko Brafman would be a direct witness.

The statement is interesting because it highlights the role of the Lublin Gestapo (ie KdS Lublin) in bringing prisoners to the camp for execution. Brafman did not mention a gas van, but other witnesses evidently did in 1944 and in subsequent cases; they would also clarify whether there had been any last-minute gassings in a gas chamber in addition to the shooting Brafman describes.

Should the weight of testimony go against either possibility, then the medico-legal report's mention of finding CO victims would be suspect. One would have to survey all the different investigations ('44, postwar Polish cases, the Duesseldorf Majdanek case and the KdS investigation) to figure everything out and establish what the collective weight of testimony was. As a crematorium worker, Brafman's account is weighty but not on its own decisive, so I'm suspending judgement for now.

I'm sure we can all think of half a dozen skeptical explanations for the medico-legal report's mention of CO gassing, and half a dozen 'denier mode' dismissals as well.

To give one skeptical explanation - one can accept the evidence of the use of a CO gas chamber at Majdanek in prior executions, yet still be skeptical of the forensic report 'embellishing' things and adding on this detail. Since the report isn't exactly exhaustive, nor does it reconstruct the crime scene properly (i.e identifying exactly where the corpses were, or working out when they were killed, using eyewitness testimonies via normal policework), then it doesn't carry as much weight in its own right as it ought to - what I transcribed and translated is pretty much all that was said in the report.

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Re: Denier BS Bingo

Postby BRoI » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:02 am

It appears that there are further medical reports, including a 12 page one on the bodies discovered in pits.

Holland wrote:The Commission collected evidence in order to determine the finest details about aspects of Majdanek such as daily regimes and nutrition, as well as the logistics of the gas chambers and means of extermination.[68] [Member of the Polish-Soviet Extraordinary Commission to Investigate German Crimes at Majdanek, Andrzej] Witos also ordered that the special forensic-medical commission already working since August 4th be incorporated into the greater Commission’s investigation. They would examine not only the survivors but the masses of corpses found at the camp – some of which were in mass graves, others of which were lying in various places around the camp, such as near the crematoria.

One example illustrating how the Commission operated by the logic of proof was evidenced in the medical team’s examinations of several tens of individual corpses. They recorded on average a paragraph of characterizations for each corpse, noting details such as age, height, clothing, estimated nutritional intake, position and size of bullets in the skull, and whether or not hair remained on the corpses. [69]

68. Presentation of evidence collected by the miscellaneous commissions, recorded by Piotr Sobolewski, protokol no. 2 of the Polish-Soviet Extraordinary Commission at Majdanek, “Soveshchanie sudebno-sledstvennoi kommissii,” pp. 2-12, Lublin, August 19, 1944, APMM, z. XXV, j.a. 4, l. 14-24.

69. Report of the Forensic-Medical Commission on the exhumation and investigation of corpses found in pits, written by Professor Szylling-Syngalewicz, protokol no. 3, “Eksgumatsii i issledovaniia trupov iamy,” pp. 1-12, Lublin, August 4-23 [specific date unclear], 1944, APMM, z. XXV, j.a. 5, l. 35-42.


Conclusion of the Forensic-Medical and Chemical-Technical Commissions, “Zakliucheniia,” p. 1, signed by Professor Szylling-Syngalewicz, August 18, 1944, Lublin, APMM, z. XXV, j.a. 4, l. 8
https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/87968/HOLLAND-THESIS-2015.pdf?sequence=1
"I believe that when the history of the [Great] war comes to be impartially written, the two greatest results will be the establishment of the national Jewish home and the creation of the League of Nations. The two are not really disconnected. They represent the two great ideas for which we fought and by which we conquered—the ideas of nationalism and internationalism."
- Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, March 1923.

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Re: Denier BS Bingo

Postby nickterry » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:50 am

Thanks, yes there are other medico-legal reports in GARF 7021-107-9, but not sure if all of the ones cited are included, and the paginations absolutely don't match with APMM z. XXV j.a. 4-5

The akt I cited earlier would therefore be the summary akt.

Protokol No-2 sudebno-meditsinskogo obsledovaniia komnaty - sklada trupov v krematorii, 4-23 avgusta 1944 goda , gor. Liublin, GARF 7021-107-9, pp.261-263 is the underlying report on the corpses around the crematorium. There is much more description of the vicinity of the crematorium, and one set of 5 corpses is singled out from 35 corpses lying in one area for paragraph-level description, with mentions of gunshot wounds/holes (ognestrel'noie otverstie), while another pile of 67 corpses had 32 with gunshot wounds and 35 without.

The three corpses singled out from this group are described as having skin/extremities that were light red (svetlokrasnego tsveta), red or crimson (malinovogo tsveta - tsveta is 'colour'). This protocol does not draw the inference that the three corpses had been poisoned by CO, it simply describes the corpses. There are other details but the skin colour issue is what leaps out at first glance. Which is deeply ironic given the endless witterings of F.P. Berg.

I didn't read through the whole file previously but read on from the technical report for the crematorium after looking up M&G's Majdanek, which is how I found what is now clearly the summary forensic report.

There is a whole series of such protocols for the graves inside the camp, one mentions finding 42 intact corpses in a much larger grave that also contained human remains and bones, each corpse was given its own individual paragraph just as Alana Holland mentions.

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Re: Denier BS Bingo

Postby nickterry » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:15 am

M&G actually cited Protokol No 1 (GARF 7021-107-9, p.258) and translated parts of this (p.114ff of the 2016 edition); it concerns the examination of the furnaces and ash/cremains.

They also cited from the concluding summary report (pp.311a-313a) which is copied elsewhere as well (I have: TsAMO 233-2374-25, 8.1944, there is a space left blank for the day, pp.459-488, this is from the files of 1st Belorussian Front, as well as GARF 7021-107-9, pp.306-321, dated 23.9.1944 with day pencilled in.)

In other words, they skipped over two reports regarding claims of CO gassing (protokol no 2 and the summary medico-legal report) that immediately followed and preceded two reports they did use.

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Re: Denier BS Bingo

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 09, 2018 1:18 am

Andy Mathis has a nice piece at HC on some of the standard gambits of Holocaust deniers: "Paul Craig Roberts Crosses the Line"
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Denier BS Bingo

Postby Darren Wilshak » Wed May 09, 2018 9:11 pm

He writes very clearly.


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