So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:08 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:. . . I've never seen any deniers conclusively prove any of the documents I've presented as forgeries. . . .

Yup. (also here)

Recall that our denier most enamored of forgeries, Monstrous, told us that he knew of just 10 forgeries aside from about 100 EG reports that the Soviets or Brits or someone, depending on his mood, messed with. Monstrous wanted to keep options open on this so, despite many requests, refused to name these 10 forgeries. By not pinning himself down, Monstrous believes he's free to claim forgery whenever his argument collapses, or he senses trouble, as he did recently with Höppner's letter in his Plausible Deniability thread.
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:43 pm

Yeah, if the conspiracy is propped up by 10 forgeries, how hard is it to produce them and produce proof of their forgeries?

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Oozy_Substance » Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:05 pm

Can you educate me about Höppner's letter? I don't know this one.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:17 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:Can you educate me about Höppner's letter? I don't know this one.


Hoppner expressed concern that there wouldn't be enough food to feed the Jews and perhaps it would better to give them a merciful death (my paraphrase).
This will work pretty well, I thought I had a German version with a translation but I don't:
https://books.google.com/books?id=d1-U17adWKIC&pg=PR52&lpg=PR52&dq=rolf+heinz+hoppner&source=bl&ots=8UNthE3Cfq&sig=-4p4G8pKQwaCSszVXlI4_lJWvNw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwikqeWRx_nRAhWpqlQKHUKFAe4Q6AEIczAW#v=onepage&q=rolf%20heinz%20hoppner&f=false

Maybe Stat Mech has a better copy.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:21 pm

From HC critique of Mattogno's view, with some basics: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ppner.html
From HC, discussion of the letter in context of summer 1941 policy evolution: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -1941.html
From HDOT, Evans' discussion of the letter in context: https://www.hdot.org/evans/
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Oozy_Substance » Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:39 pm

Thanks.
Is this an anti-denier document?
I can easily see how deniers may twist it around, claiming the food ran out because the allies bombed the supply lines, and there was no choice but to give the Jews a merciful death.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:04 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:Thanks.
Is this an anti-denier document?
I can easily see how deniers may twist it around, claiming the food ran out because the allies bombed the supply lines, and there was no choice but to give the Jews a merciful death.


Not in 1941.
Besides, deniers want to claim there was no policy to kill Jews for merciful or any other reasons.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:26 pm

Which is why Weckert IIRC and our own little Monstrous claim it is a forgery.

Höppner's letter is a key document in the evolution of Nazi policy to one of extermination of European Jews.
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:24 pm

I'm bumping this for dear Saggy.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:20 pm

I'm going to put this here:

https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017/08/19/why-the-holocaust-story-was-invented/

I have to say, I'm finding this person very amusing. He's a cut 'n ' paster of the first degree. It's very sloppy, it's Rizoli level quality. He's attracted a small following, including yours truly. However, I'm restricted to one post a week. I don't think he liked some of my answers.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:29 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I'm bumping this for dear Saggy.

Saggy: "A point of clarification for the non-hasbara readers - to prove that the holocaust is a hoax I don't have to prove that it never happened, all I have to do is prove that the 'evidence' presented for the hoax is false, and as is always the case, a deliberate lie."

Jesus wept. (I bothered to reply . . . )
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:33 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I'm bumping this for dear Saggy.

Saggy: "A point of clarification for the non-hasbara readers - to prove that the holocaust is a hoax I don't have to prove that it never happened, all I have to do is prove that the 'evidence' presented for the hoax is false, and as is always the case, a deliberate lie."

Jesus wept. (I bothered to reply . . . )


Me, too.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Balmoral95 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:39 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I'm bumping this for dear Saggy.

Saggy: "A point of clarification for the non-hasbara readers - to prove that the holocaust is a hoax I don't have to prove that it never happened, all I have to do is prove that the 'evidence' presented for the hoax is false, and as is always the case, a deliberate lie."

Jesus wept. (I bothered to reply . . . )


Is it willing to write up a definitive "reporr" on this? :lol:

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:21 am

Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:34 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:http://www.holohoax101.org


Apparently there is such a thing as advanced "Holohoax" studies:

http://www.holohoax101.org/201/

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Balmoral95 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:48 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:http://www.holohoax101.org


Thanks. Glad he resolved all that lying evidence in four pages. I can stop reading now. :roll: :lol: :lol:

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby iwh » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:15 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I'm going to put this here:

https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017/08/19/why-the-holocaust-story-was-invented/

I have to say, I'm finding this person very amusing. He's a cut 'n ' paster of the first degree. It's very sloppy, it's Rizoli level quality. He's attracted a small following, including yours truly. However, I'm restricted to one post a week. I don't think he liked some of my answers.


You're lucky...I have been banned completely. John Wear doesn't like me. We have been crossing swords on Amazon for a few years now. I try to bust every little thing he says there. He has now withdrawn into his own little bunker at wearswar.

Iwh
For a debunking of new boy on the block John Wear see:

https://wearswarts.wordpress.com

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:27 pm

iwh wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I'm going to put this here:

https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017/08/19/why-the-holocaust-story-was-invented/

I have to say, I'm finding this person very amusing. He's a cut 'n ' paster of the first degree. It's very sloppy, it's Rizoli level quality. He's attracted a small following, including yours truly. However, I'm restricted to one post a week. I don't think he liked some of my answers.


You're lucky...I have been banned completely. John Wear doesn't like me. We have been crossing swords on Amazon for a few years now. I try to bust every little thing he says there. He has now withdrawn into his own little bunker at wearswar.

Iwh


He whines about open discussion and debate but doesn't permit it on his own blog. I find that funny as hell.

I get updates from him, I keep meaning to reply but I've been busy lately.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby iwh » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:01 am

Jeff

Yep...he is the hypocrite supreme. John always used to wear the hat of the "independent researcher" devoid of all prejudices. Now he cannot do this. His Antisemitism shines out like a beacon. I doubt he'll return to Amazon...at least here in the UK as he has burnt too many bridges now.

As to his technique, he relies heavily on cherry picking of sources. Most of his stuff comes direct from the Internet and the usual websites...mainly IHR. He does, however take a trip out to his local library from time to time. He likes to show himself off as a real historian by sourcing in detail all his quotes. The problem is, he will quote directly from an IHR article and give the source that THEY cherry pick from. It then looks as if HE has read the original source...when indeed he hasn't.

Sloppy.

The last time I debated him directly he was commenting on the numbers of dead at Dresden stating that the German report from 2004 regarding the numbers was wrong (even though he hasn't actually read it!) and to prove that he cherry picks from a variety of historians from Taylor to Neitzel, De Bruhl to Overy. The problem for him, as I pointed out, was that none of the above agreed with his view that "death toll estimates in Dresden of 250,000 people are quite plausible..."

:roll:
For a debunking of new boy on the block John Wear see:

https://wearswarts.wordpress.com

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:45 pm

iwh will appreciate this:
https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017/10/06/a-blank-check-forked-tongues-how-britain-poland-started-wwii-blamed-hitler-germans-for-eternity/#comments

My first reaction was to laugh hysterically, the second was to hunt amongst his footnotes to see where he was getting his information.

Turns out he extensively quotes David L. Hoggan's book, The Forced War: Why Peaceful Revision Failed. This is David Hoggan:
http://www.revisionists.com/revisionists/hoggan.html

David Hoggan is also the person behind "The Myth of the Six Million," though apparently this was published without his permission.

So, yes, a load of crap. Hoggan was known for twisting words and misquoting sources.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby iwh » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:24 am

Just read the article. I noticed the mass quoting of Hoggan as well.

I noticed a lot of articles about Nuremberg. It's interesting how Nazi apologists like John Wear always quote US concerns about the legality of the trials and yet they post no concerns from German sources. I am currently reading the latest book on the Malmedy Trials controversy by Steven P Remy:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Malmedy-Massacre-Crimes-Trial-Controversy/dp/0674971957/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1507619255&sr=8-1&keywords=the+malmedy+trials

In the book Remy comments on how Germans viewed the war crimes trials that took place after the war as incredibly fair, much to their surprise and admiration. As Herbert Strong said:

The Courtroom (Malmedy trial) was filled with Germans most of the time, who during the trial, repeatedly expressed to me their admiration for the scrupulously fair way in which it was conducted...


By the way...have you noticed the article on the film "The Pianist"? John still prattles on about Elie Weisel wanting to leave Auschwitz with those nice German guards instead of staying behind to be liberated by those nasty Ruskies. I told him years ago the context of Weisel's decision to leave. It appears Johnny boy doesn't want to listen.

Tosser.
For a debunking of new boy on the block John Wear see:

https://wearswarts.wordpress.com

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby NathanC » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:03 am

Later on, the US gave clemency to the people convicted in the Malmedy trials, as part of the need to re integrate West Germany to use them against the USSR. All of the death and life sentences were commutted and the convicts were eventually released.

You'll never hear deniers talk about that though. They're happy to repeat the lie that the Malmedy defendants were "tortured".

(Edited to fix typo)
Last edited by NathanC on Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby iwh » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:05 am

NathanC wrote:
You'll never hear deniers talk about that though. They're happy to repeat the lie that the Malmedy defendants were "tortured".


Indeed...and it is amazing the number of reviews and investigations carried out by the US to investigate the claims. The US authorities bent over backwards to appease those claiming abuses. All the investigations totally disproved any accusations of physical torture by so called vengeance seeking "new Americans"

:roll:

I never realised how much antisemitism was a big factor in the reasoning behind the likes of chief defense lawyer Everett, not to mention German lawyers and clergy members who took on the cause years after the court case.
For a debunking of new boy on the block John Wear see:

https://wearswarts.wordpress.com

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby iwh » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:29 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I'm going to put this here:

https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017/08/19/why-the-holocaust-story-was-invented/

I have to say, I'm finding this person very amusing. He's a cut 'n ' paster of the first degree. It's very sloppy, it's Rizoli level quality. He's attracted a small following, including yours truly. However, I'm restricted to one post a week. I don't think he liked some of my answers.


Just a heads up really....In response to John Wear's website, myself and a few friends here in the UK have set up a blog that aims to challenge the bull {!#%@} that is posted by John Wear or in his name. It has just gone public and is in its infancy. Please excuse the simplicity of the site...still learning what I can and cannot do, but the important thing is the rebuttals.

https://wordpress.com/view/wearswarts.wordpress.com

Cheers

Iwh
For a debunking of new boy on the block John Wear see:

https://wearswarts.wordpress.com

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:32 pm

NathanC wrote:Later on, the US gave clemency to the people convicted in the Malmedy trials, as part of the need to re integrate West Germany to use them against the USSR. All of the death and life sentences were commutted and the convicts were eventually released.

You'll never hear deniers talk about that though. They're happy to repeat the lie that the Malmedy defendants were "tortured".

(Edited to fix typo)


An interesting sidenote: the defense attorney for the Malmedy butchers was none other than Joseph McCarthy, yes, that Joseph McCarthy.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:31 pm

you're sure? news to me . . . search: Senate Judiciary Committee + Malmedy + Baldwin or something like that . . .
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Balmoral95 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:40 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:you're sure? news to me . . . search: Senate Judiciary Committee + Malmedy + Baldwin or something like that . . .


https://aeon.co/ideas/the-malmedy-trial ... re-stories

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:46 pm

Thanks, that's even easier, and it's what Remy wrote in his book, too, nothing about "the defense attorney for the Malmedy butchers was none other than Joseph McCarthy, yes, that Joseph McCarthy." The defense attorney was Willis Everett AFAIK.
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby iwh » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:47 pm

SM

Yep...McCarthy was involved in the senate subcommittee investigation made later.

McCarthy was an ass...
For a debunking of new boy on the block John Wear see:

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby NathanC » Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:10 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
NathanC wrote:Later on, the US gave clemency to the people convicted in the Malmedy trials, as part of the need to re integrate West Germany to use them against the USSR. All of the death and life sentences were commutted and the convicts were eventually released.

You'll never hear deniers talk about that though. They're happy to repeat the lie that the Malmedy defendants were "tortured".

(Edited to fix typo)


An interesting sidenote: the defense attorney for the Malmedy butchers was none other than Joseph McCarthy, yes, that Joseph McCarthy.


An antisemite who abused the Jewish investigator (William Perl) later becoming a very influential senator. Of course the Jews "rule" the US. Yeah right.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:52 pm

iwh wrote:SM

Yep...McCarthy was involved in the senate subcommittee investigation made later.

McCarthy was an ass...

Right + right to the nth power. I was suggesting to Jeff_36 that he slow down and check his facts before posting - no, Tailgunner Joe was not the defense attorney - as all are saying, he was a member of the Senate investigating committee before IIRC resigning in a grandstand maneuver - and I provided some search terms to help Jeff_36 discover that . . . Balmoral cut to the chase.
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:30 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Thanks, that's even easier, and it's what Remy wrote in his book, too, nothing about "the defense attorney for the Malmedy butchers was none other than Joseph McCarthy, yes, that Joseph McCarthy." The defense attorney was Willis Everett AFAIK.


I read in an account of his career that McCarthy "defended" the Malmedy murderers. I interpreted that as his being a literal defense attorney, but I suppose that it was meant in a much more general sense of the term.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:33 pm

Yes, very much so I would guess. McCarthy's role in all this is detailed in Remy's book and IIRC David Oshinsky's McCarthy biography.
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby iwh » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:42 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
iwh wrote:SM

Yep...McCarthy was involved in the senate subcommittee investigation made later.

McCarthy was an ass...

Right + right to the nth power. I was suggesting to Jeff_36 that he slow down and check his facts before posting - no, Tailgunner Joe was not the defense attorney - as all are saying, he was a member of the Senate investigating committee before IIRC resigning in a grandstand maneuver - and I provided some search terms to help Jeff_36 discover that . . . Balmoral cut to the chase.


Yep... Sorry I realised that after I had posted that you were helping jeff. I was a bit like the pain in the ass in the classroom who shouts out the answer when someone else is asked the question.

Sorry...
For a debunking of new boy on the block John Wear see:

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:01 pm

Lol I was hoping he’d do his own work ;)
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:02 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Lol I was hoping he’d do his own work ;)


Again, I had taken a statement from a newspaper article to the effect that McCarthy had "defended" the Malmedy killers a little too literally. I apologize.


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