So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:20 pm

Lol
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:08 pm

Did Maryzilla ever explain how "the parchment, the shrunken heads" figure in her explanation of the how the "Hoax" works?
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:17 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Did Maryzilla ever explain how "the parchment, the shrunken heads" figure in her explanation of the how the "Hoax" works?


No, I've been keeping an eye out. I've got this set up on an E-Mail alert but, so far, neither Monstrous or Mary has come back.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:52 pm

Those two are pretty darned confusing in this context.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:20 pm

Maryzilla, Monstrous - your forgeries list? You've been asked politely. Many times. C'mon, don't run off just when it gets interesting! - best, SM
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby David » Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:25 pm

[quote="Jeffk 1970"]So, after another fruitless attempt to have a Holocaust denier prove the Holocaust was in fact, a hoax, I started thinking about how you could pull something like this off.

The magnitude of trying something like this surprised me.

You see, most Holocaust deniers look at bits and pieces, not at the whole. They basically disregard any other victims and focus solely on Jews. Our favorite Holocaust denier, Jim Rizoli, does not know anything about the T-4 Program, Operation Tannenberg, the deliberate neglect of the Soviet POWs that led to 2 million Soviet POWs dying between June 1941 to the Spring of 1942 (I'd like to make a small qualification, some of the POWs were murdered in concentration camps like Mauthaussen) or Action 14f13. Now I think Jim is an outlier, people like David Irving or Mattogono and Graf will know what those things were, they simply do not discuss them to any large degree.
To quote Bradley Smith “Although it is standard practice to defame Revisionists as “anti-Semites who claim the Holocaust is just Jewish propaganda,” that is not what we at CODOH argue. Briefly, we believe that much of that history that we are taught today has been influenced by Soviet, British and American wartime propaganda which exaggerated and exploited real tragedies for propaganda purposes. This concerns not just Jews but Slavs, Roma, Jehovah’s Witnesses and, in some versions, Gays. It can be argued that there is considerable research that supports this point of view.”

So, what I've found is a rather narrow focus on Jews plus the very specific targeting of certain aspects of the Holocaust.
You miss the extent of Revisionist research. You also miss that the tales of mass murders of Jewish victims were/are
just a part of a propaganda image.
Here is a quote from Peter Cassells, recently appointed the new Chairperson of HETI.
"The attempt by the Nazis to exterminate the Jews of Europe and to annihilate other groups because of their nationality, ethnicity, disability, sexual orientation, religious or political beliefs was not an accident of history. It was a conscious policy, carefully planned and administered by an educated elite with the active co-operation of tens of thousands and the complicity of millions.” Cassells is ignorant of recent research but expresses the
Nuremberg View. For example, Majdanek was "proven" to be the murder site for Slavs. In the original propaganda figure of 2,000,000, most were supposed to be Slavs.
In fact, it was the scholars Mattagno and Graf who showed that Jewish victims were 83% of the dead...and that the total deaths were
well below 100,000.

For example, gas chambers are particularly targeted. Over the decades deniers took swipes at the Kremas at Birkenau and the gas chambers of Action Reinhard.
What do you mean, took swipes? The original tale was that Treblinka had "steam chambers of death. You don't believe that, do you?

Then, the Believers claimed there was an old submarine diesel. We now all know (thanks to Fritz Berg) that unloaded diesel exhaust is not
lethal.

Recent attempts also include the gas vans. The key to all of this is to muddy the waters sufficiently so that they themselves don't actually have to prove anything, it is enough to cast doubt on the existence of the gas chambers. Our Monstrous took a swipe at the Einsatzgruppen, this failed but, again, the key is to muddy the waters without having to prove anything. It's easy to cry "forgery" and overstate the fact that much of the documentation came from the Soviets (never mind the fact that these documents are corroborated by Western/German sources and that the one major attempt the Soviets made to fake Katyn ended in abject failure).
The Soviet attempt didn't end in failure. The Soviet fakes were admitted into evidence. The evidence offered by the Poles was rejected. Then the matter was swept under the rug and the indictment forgotten. It was totally disgraceful on the part of the Tribunal.
But lots of other fakes slipped into the Show.

Soviet evidence of 1,400,000 dead at Majdanek was accepted. A US film using the bodies of people killed in the bombing of the Nordhausen
hospital as props was used. A shrunken head was paraded around the Tribunal. A disgusting mixture of fatty material from a
legitimate defleshing tank was shown as "human soap." The defendants were not allowed to introduce the "secret" appendix to the
German-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact (as a defense against the charge of waging aggressive war.)

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:52 pm

David wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:So, after another fruitless attempt to have a Holocaust denier prove the Holocaust was in fact, a hoax, I started thinking about how you could pull something like this off.

The magnitude of trying something like this surprised me.

You see, most Holocaust deniers look at bits and pieces, not at the whole. They basically disregard any other victims and focus solely on Jews. Our favorite Holocaust denier, Jim Rizoli, does not know anything about the T-4 Program, Operation Tannenberg, the deliberate neglect of the Soviet POWs that led to 2 million Soviet POWs dying between June 1941 to the Spring of 1942 (I'd like to make a small qualification, some of the POWs were murdered in concentration camps like Mauthaussen) or Action 14f13. Now I think Jim is an outlier, people like David Irving or Mattogono and Graf will know what those things were, they simply do not discuss them to any large degree.
To quote Bradley Smith “Although it is standard practice to defame Revisionists as “anti-Semites who claim the Holocaust is just Jewish propaganda,” that is not what we at CODOH argue. Briefly, we believe that much of that history that we are taught today has been influenced by Soviet, British and American wartime propaganda which exaggerated and exploited real tragedies for propaganda purposes. This concerns not just Jews but Slavs, Roma, Jehovah’s Witnesses and, in some versions, Gays. It can be argued that there is considerable research that supports this point of view.”

So, what I've found is a rather narrow focus on Jews plus the very specific targeting of certain aspects of the Holocaust.
You miss the extent of Revisionist research. You also miss that the tales of mass murders of Jewish victims were/are
just a part of a propaganda image.
Here is a quote from Peter Cassells, recently appointed the new Chairperson of HETI.
"The attempt by the Nazis to exterminate the Jews of Europe and to annihilate other groups because of their nationality, ethnicity, disability, sexual orientation, religious or political beliefs was not an accident of history. It was a conscious policy, carefully planned and administered by an educated elite with the active co-operation of tens of thousands and the complicity of millions.” Cassells is ignorant of recent research but expresses the
Nuremberg View. For example, Majdanek was "proven" to be the murder site for Slavs. In the original propaganda figure of 2,000,000, most were supposed to be Slavs.
In fact, it was the scholars Mattagno and Graf who showed that Jewish victims were 83% of the dead...and that the total deaths were
well below 100,000.

For example, gas chambers are particularly targeted. Over the decades deniers took swipes at the Kremas at Birkenau and the gas chambers of Action Reinhard.
What do you mean, took swipes? The original tale was that Treblinka had "steam chambers of death. You don't believe that, do you?

Then, the Believers claimed there was an old submarine diesel. We now all know (thanks to Fritz Berg) that unloaded diesel exhaust is not
lethal.

Recent attempts also include the gas vans. The key to all of this is to muddy the waters sufficiently so that they themselves don't actually have to prove anything, it is enough to cast doubt on the existence of the gas chambers. Our Monstrous took a swipe at the Einsatzgruppen, this failed but, again, the key is to muddy the waters without having to prove anything. It's easy to cry "forgery" and overstate the fact that much of the documentation came from the Soviets (never mind the fact that these documents are corroborated by Western/German sources and that the one major attempt the Soviets made to fake Katyn ended in abject failure).
The Soviet attempt didn't end in failure. The Soviet fakes were admitted into evidence. The evidence offered by the Poles was rejected. Then the matter was swept under the rug and the indictment forgotten. It was totally disgraceful on the part of the Tribunal.
But lots of other fakes slipped into the Show.

Soviet evidence of 1,400,000 dead at Majdanek was accepted. A US film using the bodies of people killed in the bombing of the Nordhausen
hospital as props was used. A shrunken head was paraded around the Tribunal. A disgusting mixture of fatty material from a
legitimate defleshing tank was shown as "human soap." The defendants were not allowed to introduce the "secret" appendix to the
German-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact (as a defense against the charge of waging aggressive war.)



That's the spirit, David. Thank you. I opened this thread for someone like you.
I'll reply in more detail in a bit, perhaps tomorrow.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:01 pm

As a general matter, we are well aware of your views on the IMT. You seem to be unaware of the research and analysis done since 1945-1946 concerning Germany's wartime actions. To help guide this a bit, please tell us what are the major lies, errors, fabrications, and false claims in the following relatively recent works:

Friedlander, Years of Persecution
Cesarani, Final Solution
Gerlach, The Extermination of the European Jews
Browning, Origins of the Final Solution
Mailander, Female SS Guards and Workaday Violence
Angrick/Klein, The “Final Solution” in Riga
Montague, Chelmno and the Holocaust
Silberklang, Gates of Tears
Wachsmann, KL
Długoborski & Piper, Auschwitz 1940-1945

These works do not rely on the IMT's findings to reach their conclusions. So I am asking you to explain how they are part of a "hoax" and what basic flaws they have. There are many other relevant works, but let's hear your views on these 10 important works. Start wherever you'd like. Let's go in-depth on some key issues you think are telling.

Let me explain a little further why it's important that you do this. For people like me, whose understanding of the Holocaust was not shaped in the 1940s or by the views of the prosecution at Nuremberg. You see, what you call the "hoax" is widely researched and has been for over half a century.

David wrote: original tale was that Treblinka had "steam chambers of death.

Nonsense. You keep repeating this silliness about "original tales" and "steam," but we all see that you take care to ignore this and this, where the cheap tricks you try peddling here have been dealt with in depth.

David wrote:Then, the Believers claimed there was an old submarine diesel.

Who did? Please be specific.

David wrote:We now all know (thanks to Fritz Berg) that unloaded diesel exhaust is not lethal.

No, we don't all "know" any such thing.

David wrote:. . . lots of other fakes slipped into the Show.

Please list all forged documents "slipped into" the IMT and NMT proceedings and record, those related to the mass murder of the European Jews. Then, continue on and tell us what documents used to explain the Holocaust today are faked - only those relative to the mass murder of the Jews, please. And let us know how you know these documents were falsified, with specifics.

David wrote:A shrunken head was paraded around the Tribunal.

Details, please. Also, how do these details relate to the Holocaust? To be clear, and so that your reply is relevant to this thread, what was presented relative to a shrunken head or shrunken heads at the IMT, how did the presentation there relate to the mass murder of the Jews, what are the problems in what was presented, what did the tribunal find relative to shrunken heads, and how do the shrunken heads presentation and findings prove a Holocaust "hoax" that continues to this day?
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:32 pm

David wrote:You miss the extent of Revisionist research.

Well, we got into this a bit with Mary Q Contrary - it didn't go so well for her and she abandoned the discussion. Now's your chance. Please help us by telling us the best "Revisionist research" on the creation, development, and maintenance of the so-called Holocaust "hoax."
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:49 am

David wrote: You miss the extent of Revisionist research. You also miss that the tales of mass murders of Jewish victims were/are
just a part of a propaganda image...


Please tell us all about that. And also about the amazing psychic abilities of all the "resettled ones" who hid during the war (and still are hiding) and lied (and still are lying) so that in a distant and unknown future their brethren could claim reparations (and more) that were in the making because of an as of yet unfathomable outcome (with several nations involved) to actually happen much, much later.

Oh wait, that's part of the one and true conspiracy almost the entire world was and is part of, but no one, except a few select hiding in their mothers' basements know about it... :heh:
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:26 am

Wow, finally, at least one hoaxster now sees the light: scrmbldgss finally understands the great hoax crime perpetuated by the Jews. That is exactly it!
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:34 am

:gum:
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:01 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:As a general matter, we are well aware of your views on the IMT. You seem to be unaware of the research and analysis done since 1945-1946 concerning Germany's wartime actions. To help guide this a bit, please tell us what are the major lies, errors, fabrications, and false claims in the following relatively recent works:

Friedlander, Years of Persecution
Cesarani, Final Solution
Gerlach, The Extermination of the European Jews
Browning, Origins of the Final Solution
Mailander, Female SS Guards and Workaday Violence
Angrick/Klein, The “Final Solution” in Riga
Montague, Chelmno and the Holocaust
Silberklang, Gates of Tears
Wachsmann, KL
Długoborski & Piper, Auschwitz 1940-1945

These works do not rely on the IMT's findings to reach their conclusions. So I am asking you to explain how they are part of a "hoax" and what basic flaws they have. There are many other relevant works, but let's hear your views on these 10 important works. Start wherever you'd like. Let's go in-depth on some key issues you think are telling.

Let me explain a little further why it's important that you do this. For people like me, whose understanding of the Holocaust was not shaped in the 1940s or by the views of the prosecution at Nuremberg. You see, what you call the "hoax" is widely researched and has been for over half a century.

David wrote: original tale was that Treblinka had "steam chambers of death.

Nonsense. You keep repeating this silliness about "original tales" and "steam," but we all see that you take care to ignore this and this, where the cheap tricks you try peddling here have been dealt with in depth.

David wrote:Then, the Believers claimed there was an old submarine diesel.

Who did? Please be specific.

David wrote:We now all know (thanks to Fritz Berg) that unloaded diesel exhaust is not lethal.

No, we don't all "know" any such thing.

David wrote:. . . lots of other fakes slipped into the Show.

Please list all forged documents "slipped into" the IMT and NMT proceedings and record, those related to the mass murder of the European Jews. Then, continue on and tell us what documents used to explain the Holocaust today are faked - only those relative to the mass murder of the Jews, please. And let us know how you know these documents were falsified, with specifics.

David wrote:A shrunken head was paraded around the Tribunal.

Details, please. Also, how do these details relate to the Holocaust? To be clear, and so that your reply is relevant to this thread, what was presented relative to a shrunken head or shrunken heads at the IMT, how did the presentation there relate to the mass murder of the Jews, what are the problems in what was presented, what did the tribunal find relative to shrunken heads, and how do the shrunken heads presentation and findings prove a Holocaust "hoax" that continues to this day?


Jeffk 1970's OP criticized revisionists for focusing exclusively on the Jews to the exclusion of all other victims. Why are you fixated on the Jews?
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:13 am

David wrote:So, after another fruitless attempt to have a Holocaust denier prove the Holocaust was in fact, a hoax, I started thinking about how you could pull something like this off.

The magnitude of trying something like this surprised me.

You see, most Holocaust deniers look at bits and pieces, not at the whole. They basically disregard any other victims and focus solely on Jews. Our favorite Holocaust denier, Jim Rizoli, does not know anything about the T-4 Program, Operation Tannenberg, the deliberate neglect of the Soviet POWs that led to 2 million Soviet POWs dying between June 1941 to the Spring of 1942 (I'd like to make a small qualification, some of the POWs were murdered in concentration camps like Mauthaussen) or Action 14f13. Now I think Jim is an outlier, people like David Irving or Mattogono and Graf will know what those things were, they simply do not discuss them to any large degree.
To quote Bradley Smith “Although it is standard practice to defame Revisionists as “anti-Semites who claim the Holocaust is just Jewish propaganda,” that is not what we at CODOH argue. Briefly, we believe that much of that history that we are taught today has been influenced by Soviet, British and American wartime propaganda which exaggerated and exploited real tragedies for propaganda purposes. This concerns not just Jews but Slavs, Roma, Jehovah’s Witnesses and, in some versions, Gays. It can be argued that there is considerable research that supports this point of view.”



What research?
David, I will say this again. Every denier I've dealt with, EVERY ONE, shows anti-Semitic tendencies. Now, I will give Bradley Smith some credit, he never displayed the pathological anti-Semetism of those deniers I've dealt with on-line for almost two years(RIP). I'll give him his due on that.


David wrote:So, what I've found is a rather narrow focus on Jews plus the very specific targeting of certain aspects of the Holocaust.
You miss the extent of Revisionist research. You also miss that the tales of mass murders of Jewish victims were/are
just a part of a propaganda image.
Here is a quote from Peter Cassells, recently appointed the new Chairperson of HETI.
"The attempt by the Nazis to exterminate the Jews of Europe and to annihilate other groups because of their nationality, ethnicity, disability, sexual orientation, religious or political beliefs was not an accident of history. It was a conscious policy, carefully planned and administered by an educated elite with the active co-operation of tens of thousands and the complicity of millions.” Cassells is ignorant of recent research but expresses the
Nuremberg View.


Nuremberg view?
What recent research?
I'm not sure I really agree with Cassells viewpoint. I'm much more functionalist in view. The original goal of Nazi policy was immigration with Austrian and German Jews, this changed due to circumstances.
I will agree to a much more intentionalist view on Euthanasia. War made a convenient cover for what Hitler wanted to do all along.

David wrote:For example, Majdanek was "proven" to be the murder site for Slavs. In the original propaganda figure of 2,000,000, most were supposed to be Slavs.


That is incorrect, the number given at Nuremberg was 1.5 million.

David wrote: In fact, it was the scholars Mattagno and Graf who showed that Jewish victims were 83% of the dead...and that the total deaths were
well below 100,000.


Raul Hilberg put the number of Jews that perished at Majdanek at 50,000. He wrote that in 1961. So, no, the "scholars" Mattagono and Graf did not come up with that number.

David wrote:
For example, gas chambers are particularly targeted. Over the decades deniers took swipes at the Kremas at Birkenau and the gas chambers of Action Reinhard.
What do you mean, took swipes? The original tale was that Treblinka had "steam chambers of death. You don't believe that, do you?


To be honest, I don't think it makes any real difference. The original misidentification of "steam" was a mistake, nothing more.
Let me put it to you this way:
Let's say I witness person A shoot person B with a pistol. Let's say I misidentify the pistol, the murder weapon was a black Glock and it was actually a black Beretta.
Does that invalidate the fact that I witnessed a murder? No, I misidentified the pistol, not the fact of murder.


David wrote:Then, the Believers claimed there was an old submarine diesel.


Huh? This was heresay from Eichmann, not established fact.

David wrote:We now all know (thanks to Fritz Berg) that unloaded diesel exhaust is not
lethal.



Charles Provan proved that you can modify a diesel to make the exhaust deadly.
Besides, the fact is we now know that the engines used were petrol, not diesel (though, frankly, blasting diesel exhaust into a closed, airtight room would undoubtedly create a toxic atmosphere of sulfur and carbon dioxide, not to mention black soot).

David wrote: Recent attempts also include the gas vans. The key to all of this is to muddy the waters sufficiently so that they themselves don't actually have to prove anything, it is enough to cast doubt on the existence of the gas chambers. Our Monstrous took a swipe at the Einsatzgruppen, this failed but, again, the key is to muddy the waters without having to prove anything. It's easy to cry "forgery" and overstate the fact that much of the documentation came from the Soviets (never mind the fact that these documents are corroborated by Western/German sources and that the one major attempt the Soviets made to fake Katyn ended in abject failure).
[color=#0000FF]The Soviet attempt didn't end in failure. The Soviet fakes were admitted into evidence. The evidence offered by the Poles was rejected. Then the matter was swept under the rug and the indictment forgotten. It was totally disgraceful on the part of the Tribunal.
But lots of other fakes slipped into the Show.


What fakes? We all keep asking.

David wrote:Soviet evidence of 1,400,000 dead at Majdanek was accepted.


That's what I said (though I said 1.5 million).
Where did you get 2 million?

David wrote: A US film using the bodies of people killed in the bombing of the Nordhausen
hospital as props was used.


?

David wrote:A shrunken head was paraded around the Tribunal. A disgusting mixture of fatty material from a
legitimate defleshing tank was shown as "human soap."


A shrunken head, even if true, is only evidence of depravity and sadism. Soap was manufactured on an experimental basis, never on an industrial level.

David wrote:The defendants were not allowed to introduce the "secret" appendix to the
German-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact (as a defense against the charge of waging aggressive war.)


And?

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby NathanC » Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:29 am

David wrote:Briefly, we believe that much of that history that we are taught today has been influenced by Soviet, British and American wartime propaganda which exaggerated and exploited real tragedies for propaganda purposes.


What David fails to realize is that there was no "wartime" propaganda, at least not pertaining to the Genocide against the Jews. Antisemitism was also rampant in the USA and Great Britain, and the former explicitly avoided citing the ongoing genocide against the Jews because they wanted to avoid giving the American public the impression that they were fighting "for the Jews". Both nations severely restricted Jewish refugee traffic- the US used the same quota for normal immigration for Refugees, and as David was told before, Britain severely restricted Jewish immigration to mandate Palestine in order to placate the Arab population. Neither the US nor Britain were acting on behalf of "the Jews"- in fact, they sabotaged an attempt by the Jewish agency to rescue Hungarian Jews, because any and all negotiation with the Nazis was at odds with the Allies' policy of "unconditional surrender"

There was no "wartime propaganda" about the Genocide of the Jews from the Soviets either. Absolutely none, becauase the Soviet Policy was to hide the Genocide against the Jews. David complains about the Majdanek death toll, and yet misses the point that it was never intended to refer to Jews, and that the official Soviet report on Majdanek hid the statements of witnesses who described the killings as being anti Jewish in nature.

David's an idiot, and his BS is seriously getting old.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 24, 2016 10:54 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Jeffk 1970's OP criticized revisionists for focusing exclusively on the Jews to the exclusion of all other victims. Why are you fixated on the Jews?

I'm not fixated on the mass murder of the Jews. However, my understanding of the Holocaust is that it involves the mass murder of the European Jews by the Nazis and their allies. The Holocaust is not Germany's waging an aggressive war, it is not Germany's murder of 3+ million Soviet POWs, it is not Nacht und Nebel, it is not Operation Tannenberg, it is not the AB Aktion, it is not atrocities against political prisoners or priests in the KLs.

So, just now, I am curious how David - and you - connect some of your slogans, gish-galloping, and allegations and claims to the mass murder of the Jews.

Now I have a question for you: you've been asked for your list of forgeries, you've been asked about your sloganeering about parchment and shrunken heads, you've been asked to explain and defend statements you made about Majdanek, you've been asked how material you brought up about Auschwitz is relevant to postwar claims about the camp, you've been asked to explain evidence about atrocities in the KLs which you brought into the discussion, you were asked to tell us how Dachau gas chambers, steam chambers, shrunken heads, etc, explain the "hoax", you have been asked to address the evidence for mass murder of Jews at Chełmno and to provide evidence for how the hoax was developed with regard to Chełmno - and much more.

You ignored every question I asked in the post you quoted, to boot.

Instead of answering these and other direct questions, you disappear and then return only to ask questions. Basically, you answer questions with either silence or questions. Tell us: is this your version of dodging and diverting? Can't you answer what you've been asked? Or are you just a coward?
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 24, 2016 11:24 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I'm not sure I really agree with Cassells viewpoint. I'm much more functionalist in view. The original goal of Nazi policy was immigration with Austrian and German Jews, this changed due to circumstances.
I will agree to a much more intentionalist view on Euthanasia. War made a convenient cover for what Hitler wanted to do all along.

Drat, I meant to comment on this, too. I agree with your reaction to this view. Cassells' brief 2013 statement, if it accurately conveys his thinking on the Holocaust, is also at odds with much current research. For those interested, here is Cassells' full message. Btw, David Merlin wrote one of his goofy letters "welcoming" Cassells to his position.

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
David wrote: In fact, it was the scholars Mattagno and Graf who showed that Jewish victims were 83% of the dead...and that the total deaths were
well below 100,000.

Raul Hilberg put the number of Jews that perished at Majdanek at 50,000. He wrote that in 1961. So, no, the "scholars" Mattagono and Graf did not come up with that number.

Instead of continuing to chant vacuous slogans about Majdanek and the IMT, David needs to get his ass back to the Majdanek thread where we discuss these issues in depth.

Jeffk 1970 wrote:To be honest, I don't think it makes any real difference. The original misidentification of "steam" was a mistake, nothing more.
Let me put it to you this way:
Let's say I witness person A shoot person B with a pistol. Let's say I misidentify the pistol, the murder weapon was a black Glock and it was actually a black Beretta.
Does that invalidate the fact that I witnessed a murder? No, I misidentified the pistol, not the fact of murder.

Except the "steam" claim is a lot emptier than even that. Most of the original accounts mentioned gas, not steam. It would be as though out of 43 witnesses to your murder, 36 identified the weapon as the Beretta, 2 said a Beretta and a Glock were used, 1 said a Glock, 3 said a Beretta, a Walther, and a lead pipe, and 1 was confused.

Rather than continuing to chant vacuous slogans about "original tales" and Treblinka "steam," David needs to get his ass into the Treblinka steam thread where we discuss this issue in depth.

Jeffk 1970 wrote:What fakes? We all keep asking.

We now have three deniers dodging this simple, direct question: Monstrous, Mary, David. They are all chicken. Afraid to commit because they want to keep their options open. They don't have a source-based, analytical view - only the ad hoc need to cry forgery when they are in deep {!#%@}.

Note to Mary, Monstrous, David: you come across as abject cowards the way you're dodging this question.

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
David wrote:Soviet evidence of 1,400,000 dead at Majdanek was accepted.

That's what I said (though I said 1.5 million).
Where did you get 2 million?

We also need David to explain what he means by evidence being "accepted" - does he mean entered into the proceedings or found to be true? He's been asked about this and asked about this and asked about this - and like Mary, he evades the rebuttals and questions but keeps trotting out the empty slogan. (If the tribunal found incorrectly on this score, for argument's sake, the incorrect finding can so easily be dealt with that it's to make a somersault into a void to claim that a "hoax" was built on the finding.)

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
David wrote: A US film using the bodies of people killed in the bombing of the Nordhausen
hospital as props was used.

?

Another Hunt "movie" and topic of one of David's drive-by threads.

Jeffk 1970 wrote:A shrunken head, even if true, is only evidence of depravity and sadism.

Since Mary and David have both cited shrunken heads as a key moment in the "hoax," I think they owe us the consideration to spell out what they are getting at, as I requested of both of them above.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sat Sep 24, 2016 12:53 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 24, 2016 11:36 am

NathanC wrote:
David wrote:Briefly, we believe that much of that history that we are taught today has been influenced by Soviet, British and American wartime propaganda which exaggerated and exploited real tragedies for propaganda purposes.


What David fails to realize is that there was no "wartime" propaganda, at least not pertaining to the Genocide against the Jews. Antisemitism was also rampant in the USA and Great Britain, and the former explicitly avoided citing the ongoing genocide against the Jews because they wanted to avoid giving the American public the impression that they were fighting "for the Jews". Both nations severely restricted Jewish refugee traffic- the US used the same quota for normal immigration for Refugees, and as David was told before, Britain severely restricted Jewish immigration to mandate Palestine in order to placate the Arab population. Neither the US nor Britain were acting on behalf of "the Jews"- in fact, they sabotaged an attempt by the Jewish agency to rescue Hungarian Jews, because any and all negotiation with the Nazis was at odds with the Allies' policy of "unconditional surrender"

There was no "wartime propaganda" about the Genocide of the Jews from the Soviets either. Absolutely none, becauase the Soviet Policy was to hide the Genocide against the Jews. David complains about the Majdanek death toll, and yet misses the point that it was never intended to refer to Jews, and that the official Soviet report on Majdanek hid the statements of witnesses who described the killings as being anti Jewish in nature.

David's an idiot, and his BS is seriously getting old.

A good book on this score is Michael Fleming, Auschwitz, the Allies and Censorship of the Holocaust.

What Fleming shows, taking issue with some other writers, is that the Allies received a great quantity of information from the Polish underground itself, among other sources, on the evolving genocide - but chose in great part to suppress what was being communicated, rather than to publicize it. This assessment is fatal to David's and Mary's claim of wartime propaganda of a "hoax."

David will need to explain where Fleming is mistaken and also to account for the sources that Fleming discusses, in which information about the mass murder of Jews was reported during the war through various channels.

(thanks for this post, I should have put Fleming's important book on my list above)
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby NathanC » Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:06 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
NathanC wrote:
David wrote:Briefly, we believe that much of that history that we are taught today has been influenced by Soviet, British and American wartime propaganda which exaggerated and exploited real tragedies for propaganda purposes.


What David fails to realize is that there was no "wartime" propaganda, at least not pertaining to the Genocide against the Jews. Antisemitism was also rampant in the USA and Great Britain, and the former explicitly avoided citing the ongoing genocide against the Jews because they wanted to avoid giving the American public the impression that they were fighting "for the Jews". Both nations severely restricted Jewish refugee traffic- the US used the same quota for normal immigration for Refugees, and as David was told before, Britain severely restricted Jewish immigration to mandate Palestine in order to placate the Arab population. Neither the US nor Britain were acting on behalf of "the Jews"- in fact, they sabotaged an attempt by the Jewish agency to rescue Hungarian Jews, because any and all negotiation with the Nazis was at odds with the Allies' policy of "unconditional surrender"

There was no "wartime propaganda" about the Genocide of the Jews from the Soviets either. Absolutely none, becauase the Soviet Policy was to hide the Genocide against the Jews. David complains about the Majdanek death toll, and yet misses the point that it was never intended to refer to Jews, and that the official Soviet report on Majdanek hid the statements of witnesses who described the killings as being anti Jewish in nature.

David's an idiot, and his BS is seriously getting old.

A good book on this score is Michael Fleming, Auschwitz, the Allies and Censorship of the Holocaust.

What Fleming shows, taking issue with some other writers, is that the Allies received a great quantity of information from the Polish underground itself, among other sources, on the evolving genocide - but chose in great part to suppress what was being communicated, rather than to publicize it. This assessment is fatal to David's and Mary's claim of wartime propaganda of a "hoax."

David will need to explain where Fleming is mistaken and also to account for the sources that Fleming discusses, in which information about the mass murder of Jews was reported during the war through various channels.

(thanks for this post, I should have put Fleming's important book on my list above)


No, thank you for sharing the information about the official Soviet report on Majdanek, and how they ignored and altered statements pointing out the fact that people were killed for being Jewish. That also undermines David and Maryzilla's fantasies about any "hoax".

I'm gonna try to find the book you mentioned as well. Thank you for bringing it up. :)

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:28 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Jeffk 1970's OP criticized revisionists for focusing exclusively on the Jews to the exclusion of all other victims. Why are you fixated on the Jews?

I'm not fixated on the mass murder of the Jews. However, my understanding of the Holocaust is that it involves the mass murder of the European Jews by the Nazis and their allies. The Holocaust is not Germany's waging an aggressive war, it is not Germany's murder of 3+ million Soviet POWs, it is not Nacht und Nebel, it is not Operation Tannenberg, it is not the AB Aktion, it is not atrocities against political prisoners or priests in the KLs.

So, just now, I am curious how David - and you - connect some of your slogans, gish-galloping, and allegations and claims to the mass murder of the Jews.

Now I have a question for you: you've been asked for your list of forgeries, you've been asked about your sloganeering about parchment and shrunken heads, you've been asked to explain and defend statements you made about Majdanek, you've been asked how material you brought up about Auschwitz is relevant to postwar claims about the camp, you've been asked to explain evidence about atrocities in the KLs which you brought into the discussion, you were asked to tell us how Dachau gas chambers, steam chambers, shrunken heads, etc, explain the "hoax", you have been asked to address the evidence for mass murder of Jews at Chełmno and to provide evidence for how the hoax was developed with regard to Chełmno - and much more.

You ignored every question I asked in the post you quoted, to boot.

Instead of answering these and other direct questions, you disappear and then return only to ask questions. Basically, you answer questions with either silence or questions. Tell us: is this your version of dodging and diverting? Can't you answer what you've been asked? Or are you just a coward?

If you don't understand how false information being presented as fact can mislead the public, I can't help you.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:48 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Jeffk 1970's OP criticized revisionists for focusing exclusively on the Jews to the exclusion of all other victims. Why are you fixated on the Jews?

I'm not fixated on the mass murder of the Jews. However, my understanding of the Holocaust is that it involves the mass murder of the European Jews by the Nazis and their allies. The Holocaust is not Germany's waging an aggressive war, it is not Germany's murder of 3+ million Soviet POWs, it is not Nacht und Nebel, it is not Operation Tannenberg, it is not the AB Aktion, it is not atrocities against political prisoners or priests in the KLs.

So, just now, I am curious how David - and you - connect some of your slogans, gish-galloping, and allegations and claims to the mass murder of the Jews.

Now I have a question for you: you've been asked for your list of forgeries, you've been asked about your sloganeering about parchment and shrunken heads, you've been asked to explain and defend statements you made about Majdanek, you've been asked how material you brought up about Auschwitz is relevant to postwar claims about the camp, you've been asked to explain evidence about atrocities in the KLs which you brought into the discussion, you were asked to tell us how Dachau gas chambers, steam chambers, shrunken heads, etc, explain the "hoax", you have been asked to address the evidence for mass murder of Jews at Chełmno and to provide evidence for how the hoax was developed with regard to Chełmno - and much more.

You ignored every question I asked in the post you quoted, to boot.

Instead of answering these and other direct questions, you disappear and then return only to ask questions. Basically, you answer questions with either silence or questions. Tell us: is this your version of dodging and diverting? Can't you answer what you've been asked? Or are you just a coward?

If you don't understand how false information being presented as fact can mislead the public, I can't help you.


You can help yourself and other deniers by giving us a list of alleged forgeries. That's a good place to start.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:04 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:If you don't understand how false information being presented as fact can mislead the public, I can't help you.

I understand that, of course, but it wasn't what you were asked.

Stop dodging and answer what you've been asked.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:40 pm

David wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:So, after another fruitless attempt to have a Holocaust denier prove the Holocaust was in fact, a hoax, I started thinking about how you could pull something like this off.

The magnitude of trying something like this surprised me.

You see, most Holocaust deniers look at bits and pieces, not at the whole. They basically disregard any other victims and focus solely on Jews. Our favorite Holocaust denier, Jim Rizoli, does not know anything about the T-4 Program, Operation Tannenberg, the deliberate neglect of the Soviet POWs that led to 2 million Soviet POWs dying between June 1941 to the Spring of 1942 (I'd like to make a small qualification, some of the POWs were murdered in concentration camps like Mauthaussen) or Action 14f13. Now I think Jim is an outlier, people like David Irving or Mattogono and Graf will know what those things were, they simply do not discuss them to any large degree.
To quote Bradley Smith “Although it is standard practice to defame Revisionists as “anti-Semites who claim the Holocaust is just Jewish propaganda,” that is not what we at CODOH argue. Briefly, we believe that much of that history that we are taught today has been influenced by Soviet, British and American wartime propaganda which exaggerated and exploited real tragedies for propaganda purposes. This concerns not just Jews but Slavs, Roma, Jehovah’s Witnesses and, in some versions, Gays. It can be argued that there is considerable research that supports this point of view.”

So, what I've found is a rather narrow focus on Jews plus the very specific targeting of certain aspects of the Holocaust.
You miss the extent of Revisionist research. You also miss that the tales of mass murders of Jewish victims were/are
just a part of a propaganda image.
Here is a quote from Peter Cassells, recently appointed the new Chairperson of HETI.
"The attempt by the Nazis to exterminate the Jews of Europe and to annihilate other groups because of their nationality, ethnicity, disability, sexual orientation, religious or political beliefs was not an accident of history. It was a conscious policy, carefully planned and administered by an educated elite with the active co-operation of tens of thousands and the complicity of millions.” Cassells is ignorant of recent research but expresses the
Nuremberg View. For example, Majdanek was "proven" to be the murder site for Slavs. In the original propaganda figure of 2,000,000, most were supposed to be Slavs.
In fact, it was the scholars Mattagno and Graf who showed that Jewish victims were 83% of the dead...and that the total deaths were
well below 100,000.

For example, gas chambers are particularly targeted. Over the decades deniers took swipes at the Kremas at Birkenau and the gas chambers of Action Reinhard.
What do you mean, took swipes? The original tale was that Treblinka had "steam chambers of death. You don't believe that, do you?

Then, the Believers claimed there was an old submarine diesel. We now all know (thanks to Fritz Berg) that unloaded diesel exhaust is not
lethal.

Recent attempts also include the gas vans. The key to all of this is to muddy the waters sufficiently so that they themselves don't actually have to prove anything, it is enough to cast doubt on the existence of the gas chambers. Our Monstrous took a swipe at the Einsatzgruppen, this failed but, again, the key is to muddy the waters without having to prove anything. It's easy to cry "forgery" and overstate the fact that much of the documentation came from the Soviets (never mind the fact that these documents are corroborated by Western/German sources and that the one major attempt the Soviets made to fake Katyn ended in abject failure).
The Soviet attempt didn't end in failure. The Soviet fakes were admitted into evidence. The evidence offered by the Poles was rejected. Then the matter was swept under the rug and the indictment forgotten. It was totally disgraceful on the part of the Tribunal.
But lots of other fakes slipped into the Show.

Soviet evidence of 1,400,000 dead at Majdanek was accepted. A US film using the bodies of people killed in the bombing of the Nordhausen
hospital as props was used. A shrunken head was paraded around the Tribunal. A disgusting mixture of fatty material from a
legitimate defleshing tank was shown as "human soap." The defendants were not allowed to introduce the "secret" appendix to the
German-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact (as a defense against the charge of waging aggressive war.)



David? If you'd like to take a break from the Majdanek thread I'm still here waiting for answers...........

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:09 pm

I've put him on en enforced break, for me anyway. He's become more boring than ever.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:27 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I've put him on en enforced break, for me anyway. He's become more boring than ever.



I've spent less time dealing with him directly but I've been following the Majdanek thread. He's just repeating himself now.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:38 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I've put him on en enforced break, for me anyway. He's become more boring than ever.



I've spent less time dealing with him directly but I've been following the Majdanek thread. He's just repeating himself now.

He has been since over a year ago! This is caused by a combination of his mendacity and bias, his profound ignorance and laziness, and his inability to read and comprehend. I used to think he used "strategic stupidity" but more and more I think he really struggles with basic issues and with the discussion.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:11 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I've put him on en enforced break, for me anyway. He's become more boring than ever.



I've spent less time dealing with him directly but I've been following the Majdanek thread. He's just repeating himself now.

He has been since over a year ago! This is caused by a combination of his mendacity and bias, his profound ignorance and laziness, and his inability to read and comprehend. I used to think he used "strategic stupidity" but more and more I think he really struggles with basic issues and with the discussion.


So, in other words, the perfect Hunt disciple.
:lol:

Truth be told I don't know enough about Majdanek to weigh in, I've learned a lot about it reading the thread.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:53 pm

From David? :lol:

Truth be told, when the thread started - started with Nessie "buying" Hunt's video - I had read just a bit on the Majdanek. I found it hard to believe that anyone would take Hunt seriously so I just began asking Nessie to defend what Hunt claimed. His/her failures to be able to do so got me more and more interested, so by now I've read a fair amount - 8-10 books I am guessing and a number of articles, 150-200 witness statement (from snippets to long testimonies - about 100 of these related in some way to gassing), many documents and reports, several camp guides - and I've also watched a lot of video and studied various websites. Nessie tried using an inductive or logical method, which led to all sorts of problems because the logic used the Germans was different to what Nessie thought it should be. David tries to feign knowledge about the camp - but I now know enough to see through his claims and spot errors quickly, and to know right where to go to disprove his BS.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:05 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:From David? :lol:


Uh........hell no!!!!
:lol:

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Truth be told, when the thread started - started with Nessie "buying" Hunt's video - I had read just a bit on the Majdanek. I found it hard to believe that anyone would take Hunt seriously so I just began asking Nessie to defend what Hunt claimed. His/her failures to be able to do so got me more and more interested, so by now I've read a fair amount - 8-10 books I am guessing and a number of articles, 150-200 witness statement (from snippets to long testimonies - about 100 of these related in some way to gassing), many documents and reports, several camp guides - and I've also watched a lot of video and studied various websites. Nessie tried using an inductive or logical method, which led to all sorts of problems because the logic used the Germans was different to what Nessie thought it should be. David tries to feign knowledge about the camp - but I now know enough to see through his claims and spot errors quickly, and to know right where to go to disprove his BS.


I've learned a lot from reading what you, scrmbldggs and D-H wrote. There just isn't a lot on Majdanek on its own, Wachsman talks about it in KL, it pops up in a few other places. I know there are a couple of books on it so I'll be looking into getting those.
It's odd, the Soviets captured it practically intact in 1944 so there has to be a decent amount of information about it. I'd expect more to be written about it. From everything I've read I know it was never really completed, it never held that many prisoners (compared to Auschwitz) and it functioned much like a collection point for the Reinhard Camps.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Denying-History » Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:10 pm

I don't have to much for Majdanek, though SM has gone to great lengths to learn about Majdanek. I was able to get an actual translation of Pressacs writing on Leuchter so I will send it your way Jeff. I also have a few book excerpts on the camp that would help and a statement from Hoess.

If you haven't read it then the online version of the "Majdanek report" on Jewish Gen contains except a from the polish Soviet report.

Sadly enough Yad Vashem hasn't made a scanned copy of the report yet, but they do have it in their document archive.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:22 pm

Majdanek continued here.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Oct 08, 2016 6:30 pm

So, since Monstrous, Mary Q and David refuse to come here anymore I looked at Germar Rudolf's website to see why deniers believe in a "hoax."
A denier from ISF posted a link.
Anyway:

Germar Rudolf wrote:Revisionists generally hold that the Allied governments, and in particular the Soviets, decided to carry their wartime “black propaganda” of German monstrosities over into the postwar period.


What propaganda?
Both sides used propaganda, no one disputes that, but if the killings of Jews was propaganda, why did the US and Britain downplay the killings of Jews? Why did this alleged propaganda come from the Poles, not the US or Britain? The Poles didn't need the propaganda to revolve around Jews, they had enough propaganda sources from what the Germans were doing to ethnic Poles. It was also hardly propaganda, the Germans deported Poles and Jews under very harsh conditions, they murdered Polish intelligentsia, suppressed the Catholic Church, etc.

Germar Rudolf wrote:This was done for essentially three reasons. 1. The Allies felt it necessary to continue to justify the great sacrifices that were made in fighting two world wars.


Huh? Justification?
The British and French bent over backwards in the 1930's to accommodate Hitler. Only after Hitler violated the Munich Pact did the British and French stand their ground.....because PUBLIC OPINION forced them to.
The British and French repeatedly warned Hitler over invading Poland and he did so anyway, forcing the British and French to honor their treaty agreements.
The United States? Hitler declared war on them, not the other way around (in spite of what Jim Rizoli thinks. God, that still makes me laugh).
The Soviet Union? Hitler invaded them. Out of all the combatants the USSR suffered the most, losing perhaps up to 27 million people from all causes during the war.

Germar Rudolf wrote:2. The Allies wanted to divert attention from, and to justify, their own particularly brutal crimes against humanity. Soviet atrocities alone caused the death of uncounted millions of civilians in the Soviet Union and in all countries of eastern and central Europe. American and British saturation bombings of German and Japanese cities causing over a million civilians to be burned or buried alive.


"Soviet atrocities" is too vague. Untold millions in the Soviet Union? Huh? Why would Stalin need to justify atrocities committed against his own people? What does this have to do with the war? The Holdomor occurred in the early 1930's, The Great Purges in the late 1930's. Neither one had anything to do with Germany and Stalin didn't care about "justifying" either. They were completely justified (in Stalin's mind) by the need to force the peasantry to work for the state and to purge dangerous elements from society. Stalin dismissed reports of rapine and plunder by his troops in Eastern Europe as his armies blowing off steam.
As far as saturation bombing by the British and US, there were military reasons to do (we've devoted an entire thread to this) and the Germans and Japanese were hardly in any position to complain, they also attacked non-military targets (admittedly on a much more limited scale). Recent actual revision now takes a more critical view of the allied bombing campaign, see this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26916

Germar Rudolf wrote:3. The Allies needed justification for postwar arrangements involving the total dismantling of German industry, a policy of starvation causing the deaths of many millions of German civilians, the robbing of German patents worth trillions of dollars, and the annexation of large parts of Germany into Poland and the USSR. These territories were not disputed borderlands but consisted of 20% of the entire German territory. The twelve million Germans living in these regions were robbed of their property and brutally expelled. More than two millions perished during this most heinous ethnic cleansing of world history.


Again, no need for justification of any sort. Much of the ethnic cleansing of Germans occurred before the formalization of agreements between the US, Britain and USSR. The Poles, Czechs, French, Hungarians, etc. started driving Germans out of their lands before any sort of formal agreement. Those treated harshly by the occupying Germans felt no need to justify harsh treatment. The Potsdam Agreement actually contained specific language in regards to the "humane expulsion" of ethnic Germans which improved the conditions of deportation.
I guess Rudolf doesn't feel the need to shed any tears over the Ukrainians or Poles deported at that time, among others.
As far as starvation, nobody in Europe had a lot of food.
As far as German industry, the mass destruction of industry in the USSR and Eastern Europe needed to be rebuilt, why shouldn't the aggressors contribute? The same held true in Western Europe.
I guess Rudolf doesn't feel the need to shed any tears over the fact that the Soviets also hauled away Polish and Hungarian factories.

Well, I doubt any of our resident deniers will have anything to say about the above.
Here's the link to Rudolf's website, enjoy:

http://germarrudolf.com/germars-views/f ... visionism/

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 08, 2016 6:58 pm

Nice. A couple thoughts:

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Germar Rudolf wrote:Revisionists generally hold that the Allied governments, and in particular the Soviets, decided to carry their wartime “black propaganda” of German monstrosities over into the postwar period.

What propaganda?
Both sides used propaganda, no one disputes that, but if the killings of Jews was propaganda, why did the US and Britain downplay the killings of Jews? Why did this alleged propaganda come from the Poles, not the US or Britain? The Poles didn't need the propaganda to revolve around Jews, they had enough propaganda sources from what the Germans were doing to ethnic Poles. It was also hardly propaganda, the Germans deported Poles and Jews under very harsh conditions, they murdered Polish intelligentsia, suppressed the Catholic Church, etc.

He "kind of" glosses over the Hungary situation, too, eh, including the roles/decisions of Church and Horthy, similarly with Slovakia.

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Germar Rudolf wrote:This was done for essentially three reasons. 1. The Allies felt it necessary to continue to justify the great sacrifices that were made in fighting two world wars.

Huh? Justification?
The British and French bent over backwards in the 1930's to accommodate Hitler. Only after Hitler violated the Munich Pact did the British and French stand their ground.....because PUBLIC OPINION forced them to.
The British and French repeatedly warned Hitler over invading Poland and he did so anyway, forcing the British and French to honor their treaty agreements.
The United States? Hitler declared war on them, not the other way around (in spite of what Jim Rizoli thinks. God, that still makes me laugh).
The Soviet Union? Hitler invaded them. Out of all the combatants the USSR suffered the most, losing perhaps up to 27 million people from all causes during the war.

Also, the Allies were consistently fearful of full-throated support for European Jews due to internal politics - national cohesion, in their view, would be undermined by even hinting that the war was fought on behalf of the Jews. So turning around and propagandizing that the war was, er, fought on behalf of the Jews makes as much sense as the supposed resettlement of 2.5 million Jews to Mr Cole's Unicornville.

Jeffk 1970 wrote:As far as saturation bombing by the British and US, there were military reasons to do (we've devoted an entire thread to this) and the Germans and Japanese were hardly in any position to complain, they also attacked non-military targets (admittedly on a much more limited scale). Recent actual revision now takes a more critical view of the allied bombing campaign, see this thread:

Nor did the Allies by and large feel they had much choice - their main argument and their main belief was necessity. They believed the bombing was justified and that their populations concurred.

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Again, no need for justification of any sort. Much of the ethnic cleansing of Germans occurred before the formalization of agreements between the US, Britain and USSR. The Poles, Czechs, French, Hungarians, etc. started driving Germans out of their lands before any sort of formal agreement. Those treated harshly by the occupying Germans felt no need to justify harsh treatment. The Potsdam Agreement actually contained specific language in regards to the "humane expulsion" of ethnic Germans which improved the conditions of deportation.
I guess Rudolf doesn't feel the need to shed any tears over the Ukrainians or Poles deported at that time, among others.
As far as starvation, nobody in Europe had a lot of food.
As far as German industry, the mass destruction of industry in the USSR and Eastern Europe needed to be rebuilt, why shouldn't the aggressors contribute? The same held true in Western Europe.
I guess Rudolf doesn't feel the need to shed any tears over the fact that the Soviets also hauled away Polish and Hungarian factories.

Has he even heard of the Marshall plan? The weakening and abandonment of the war crimes prosecutions, clemency, etc?
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:17 pm

:hmm: That kind should have their internet access, carried card(s) and license for use of the alphabet revoked.



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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:22 pm

Guys like Rudolf only focus on the IMT. They gloss over the fact that prosecutions of SS and Nazi Party members were laughable in the 50's, 60's and 70's.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:55 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Guys like Rudolf only focus on the IMT. They gloss over the fact that prosecutions of SS and Nazi Party members were laughable in the 50's, 60's and 70's.

I guess it's difficult to go too hard on yer compeers. :-P
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:02 pm

:lol:

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:07 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:They believed the bombing was justified and that their populations concurred.


Some still do ;) ;)

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:21 pm

Apart from Montrous' strange use of Goring as an example, are there any other documents/quotes that deniers present as "No deathbed confessions or tell-all memoirs you say?! Have a look at this!!!!!111"?
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:42 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:Apart from Montrous' strange use of Goring as an example, are there any other documents/quotes that deniers present as "No deathbed confessions or tell-all memoirs you say?! Have a look at this!!!!!111"?



People can't keep secrets.

Now, there are successful conspiracies throughout history. But, they aim for specific objectives....the 911 attacks, the assassination of Caesar, Sadat and Lincoln, etc. Once the objective is completed they end. They aren't dragged out for seven decades to conceal an enormous crime, it isn't possible.

Plus, the three main actors, the Soviets, British and Americans, fell out after the war. Why would any of them continue to conceal anything for each other? Why would Britain and the US continue covering up for the Soviets and vice versa? Stalin himself was an antisemite and there were antisemites in the British and US administrations, why would they make up something like this or agree to cover it up? Not only that but you have a host of other countries you have to rope into the conspiracy making it even harder to conceal.

How hard would it be to fake a Hitler order? Or a mass gassing? An efficient conspiracy would have these things put into place before rolling it out, along with other documents to tie the whole thing together.

In my time of studying this (admittedly not as long as others) I've never seen any deniers conclusively prove any of the documents I've presented as forgeries. They hem and haw over word choices or ambiguities but never provide proof. They can argue about mass graves or Prussian Blue but they can't prove where the large numbers of Jews went if they didn't die.

Maybe David will come back and explain it all so it makes sense.


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