So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Sep 01, 2016 2:57 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:You still haven't explained where three million Auschwitz and 1.4 million Madjanek victims went. This is only peripherally related to the OP but your answer may provide some additioinal insight into how error can creep into the historical record.


I have handled this already Mary, don't make me have to go into detail past a single quote.

You don't need to go into detail. You just need to show us where they went. Easy.


Lol I don't think you understand that Auschwtiz never received 4 million people, nor did Majdanek ever receive numbers even close to a million.

I don't think you understand that that doesn't matter. If you posit X number of dead people, you can't lower that number without explaining what happened to them if they weren't intentionally murdered by the Germans. It's a stupid rule that sounds insane to anybody except for professional Holocaust historians but it is what it is. If you want to participate in intelligent discussions of this darkest period in human existence, you need to play by the rules. So where did they go?


I explained it above, and you know that. Its not that the idea seems stupid at all its that it makes sense, cause the soviets estimates were again not based on documentation. Mary if you want to participate in intelligent discussions at all then you need to play to the means of reason and logic. Its logical to dismiss the soviets estimates considering their estimate was based on cremation rate plus their estimates off clothing and shoes. Documentation shows that 4 million people were never sent to auschwitz and nowhere close to 1.5 million people were sent to Majdanek.

Basing your estimate on cremation rate is just as logical as basing it on the number of people the railroads say they transported to Auschwitz. If "Documentation shows that 4 million people were never sent to auschwitz and nowhere close to 1.5 million people were sent to Majdanek" then where does the documentation say they went?

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Your argument is invalid due to the fact the Soviet's didn't base their numbers on documents.

The problem isn't that the Soviets didn't base their numbers on documents because they did. The problem is that the Soviets didn't conduct their investigations intending to discover the truth. They were looking for evidence to use against the Germans. They didn't conduct proper forensic examinations of the former death camps that could have confirmed the information they culled from the documents and, more often, the eyewitnesses. Nor did they allow any independent investigations. These problems were not unique to the Soviets. The Americans and British had the same motives and same lax investigative standards. But the Soviets were also interested in deflecting any attention from their own behavior.


The Problem is that the soviets didn't base their numbers on documents... They didn't at all. The problem is the soviets based their estimate off theoretic ideas such as these gas chambers operating every day and night. Killing 2000 people every time, and cremating a large number of them in a short amount of time.

I thought you said they based their numbers on the estimates of how many bodies could be cremated. Did they also make assumptions about the gas chamber capacity when they calculated the death toll at the camp? And what the Hell did base their numbers on if they didn't use any documents?

Also, why wouldn't they base their estimates on the assumption that these gas chambers were operating 24/7 and killing 2000 people at a time? That's what the witnesses say was happening.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
I have already explained this so stop playing dumb. Hell you completely ignored SM as well whom gave information which proves my exact point.

You have explained and reiterated how false information got into the official record. You aren't completely right about the reason why this false information got into the official record but you agree that the information was false and you agree that the information was presented as the truth. Your understanding of how this happened doesn't rely on vast conspiracies operating on a continental scale involving hundreds of thousands of forged documents and tens of thousands of eyewitnesses cooperating with each other. pretend you don't understand how such a "hoax" could possibly work, you need to stop explaining how it works.


Mary shove a cork in it and list. The information the the soviets reports are true to what they discovered...

What does "the information the the soviets reports are true to what they discovered" mean?

They again though didn't use the documentation that existed in the camps. They used some documents such as the construction plans but they didn't use documents like the Topf estimate that 4,756 bodies could be burned every 24 hours.

Why wouldn't they use the documentation that existed in the camp? Where did they get the documentation that they DID use to make their estimates?




Yawn.
I didn't open this thread for deniers to engage in their usual ducking and dodging.



I'll tell you what, Mary. Let's reset. Why don't you give a list of documents that were forged to start and sustain this "hoax."
I'll want proof that they were forged. We can move on to other matters later but start with forged documents.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Denying-History » Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:32 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:You still haven't explained where three million Auschwitz and 1.4 million Madjanek victims went. This is only peripherally related to the OP but your answer may provide some additioinal insight into how error can creep into the historical record.


I have handled this already Mary, don't make me have to go into detail past a single quote.

You don't need to go into detail. You just need to show us where they went. Easy.


Lol I don't think you understand that Auschwtiz never received 4 million people, nor did Majdanek ever receive numbers even close to a million.

I don't think you understand that that doesn't matter. If you posit X number of dead people, you can't lower that number without explaining what happened to them if they weren't intentionally murdered by the Germans. It's a stupid rule that sounds insane to anybody except for professional Holocaust historians but it is what it is. If you want to participate in intelligent discussions of this darkest period in human existence, you need to play by the rules. So where did they go?


I explained it above, and you know that. Its not that the idea seems stupid at all its that it makes sense, cause the soviets estimates were again not based on documentation. Mary if you want to participate in intelligent discussions at all then you need to play to the means of reason and logic. Its logical to dismiss the soviets estimates considering their estimate was based on cremation rate plus their estimates off clothing and shoes. Documentation shows that 4 million people were never sent to auschwitz and nowhere close to 1.5 million people were sent to Majdanek.

Basing your estimate on cremation rate is just as logical as basing it on the number of people the railroads say they transported to Auschwitz. If "Documentation shows that 4 million people were never sent to auschwitz and nowhere close to 1.5 million people were sent to Majdanek" then where does the documentation say they went?

No its really not... These facilities were not used every day and it still didn't take in the same amount of people every single time. As to where they went It should be obvious by now or your brain has the consistency of a child.

Hint - They didn't exist, Hoess even said in his memoir that 1.5 million was the highest estimate he could reach based on memory. Guess what? His actual estimate was 1.2 million which is practically where we stand in the modern age.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Your argument is invalid due to the fact the Soviet's didn't base their numbers on documents.

The problem isn't that the Soviets didn't base their numbers on documents because they did. The problem is that the Soviets didn't conduct their investigations intending to discover the truth. They were looking for evidence to use against the Germans. They didn't conduct proper forensic examinations of the former death camps that could have confirmed the information they culled from the documents and, more often, the eyewitnesses. Nor did they allow any independent investigations. These problems were not unique to the Soviets. The Americans and British had the same motives and same lax investigative standards. But the Soviets were also interested in deflecting any attention from their own behavior.


The Problem is that the soviets didn't base their numbers on documents... They didn't at all. The problem is the soviets based their estimate off theoretic ideas such as these gas chambers operating every day and night. Killing 2000 people every time, and cremating a large number of them in a short amount of time.

I thought you said they based their numbers on the estimates of how many bodies could be cremated. Did they also make assumptions about the gas chamber capacity when they calculated the death toll at the camp? And what the Hell did base their numbers on if they didn't use any documents?


No they were just wrong about the capacity of the ovens. I was saying 2000 people just as a basic answer.

Guess Mary Guess, It doesn't take a fourth grader to understand this. Also answer SM's question.

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Mary - also, just to help this discussion along, please tell us what the Polish-Soviet Commission and Soviet authorities heard from early Majdanek witnesses (1944-1946) about the duration of gassings and numbers involved. You know, to support your contention that witnesses told the postwar investigators that "these gas chambers were operating 24/7 and killing 2000 people at a time." Again, thanks so much, SM


Mary Q Contrary wrote:Also, why wouldn't they base their estimates on the assumption that these gas chambers were operating 24/7 and killing 2000 people at a time? That's what the witnesses say was happening.


Not really... I haven't heard any sonderkommando saying he worked a 24 hour shift, 7 days a week. I have heard of a 20 hour shift before but that was from Gusen, which didn't have any gas chambers.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
I have already explained this so stop playing dumb. Hell you completely ignored SM as well whom gave information which proves my exact point.

You have explained and reiterated how false information got into the official record. You aren't completely right about the reason why this false information got into the official record but you agree that the information was false and you agree that the information was presented as the truth. Your understanding of how this happened doesn't rely on vast conspiracies operating on a continental scale involving hundreds of thousands of forged documents and tens of thousands of eyewitnesses cooperating with each other. pretend you don't understand how such a "hoax" could possibly work, you need to stop explaining how it works.


Mary shove a cork in it and list. The information the the soviets reports are true to what they discovered...

What does "the information the the soviets reports are true to what they discovered" mean?


What they found inside the camps is what they found, an example is CO bottles being found at Majdanek. This even has documents to back it up that these bottles existed, though we don't have any documents they found thousands of shoes as well. Thousands of pieces of clothing. Mounds worth of ash at sites like Majdanek and Sobibor.

These things are accurate in their reports but we need to be suspect for exaggeration when it comes to killing capabilities.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
They again though didn't use the documentation that existed in the camps. They used some documents such as the construction plans but they didn't use documents like the Topf estimate that 4,756 bodies could be burned every 24 hours.

Why wouldn't they use the documentation that existed in the camp? Where did they get the documentation that they DID use to make their estimates?


They probably didn't know the document even existed, and just did the same thing they did at majdanek. Also maybe you should try reading the reports to find out. You are the one blindly defending them. Anyway you should answer Jeff now.

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Yawn.
I didn't open this thread for deniers to engage in their usual ducking and dodging.



I'll tell you what, Mary. Let's reset. Why don't you give a list of documents that were forged to start and sustain this "hoax."
I'll want proof that they were forged. We can move on to other matters later but start with forged documents.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:37 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:If "Documentation shows that 4 million people were never sent to auschwitz and nowhere close to 1.5 million people were sent to Majdanek" then where does the documentation say they went?

Jesus wept.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:why wouldn't they base their estimates on the assumption that these gas chambers were operating 24/7 and killing 2000 people at a time? That's what the witnesses say was happening.

Let's stick with Majdanek for a moment: which witnesses say that at Majdanek the gas chambers were operating 24/7 and killing 2000 people at a time? Name them and give us citations to where witnesses said this. Also, out of curiosity, what books, testimonies, trial materials, etc have you read about Majdanek - or is Majdanek another camp like Chełmno about which you are clueless?

No, let's stick with Auschwitz: When the Hungarian Jews arrived they had the gas chambers going day and night. How can you wrap your imagination round that? I still can’t. or The gas chambers operated around the clock, consuming ten thousand lives a day. The ovens burned hundreds an hour.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:53 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:If "Documentation shows that 4 million people were never sent to auschwitz and nowhere close to 1.5 million people were sent to Majdanek" then where does the documentation say they went?

Jesus wept.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:why wouldn't they base their estimates on the assumption that these gas chambers were operating 24/7 and killing 2000 people at a time? That's what the witnesses say was happening.

Let's stick with Majdanek for a moment: which witnesses say that at Majdanek the gas chambers were operating 24/7 and killing 2000 people at a time? Name them and give us citations to where witnesses said this. Also, out of curiosity, what books, testimonies, trial materials, etc have you read about Majdanek - or is Majdanek another camp like Chełmno about which you are clueless?

No, let's stick with Auschwitz: When the Hungarian Jews arrived they had the gas chambers going day and night. How can you wrap your imagination round that? I still can’t. or The gas chambers operated around the clock, consuming ten thousand lives a day. The ovens burned hundreds an hour.


What about Auschwitz?

The Hungarian deportations were the most active period in Birkenau's history and the gas chambers and ovens ran constantly. The Germans resorted to open air burnings to keep up.

Now, give me a list of forged documents.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:00 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:No, let's stick with Auschwitz. . .

Don't change the subject, Mary, I didn't ask you about Auschwitz, I asked you some specific questions about the claim you made about Majdanek. That's what I was interested in. What's the matter? Do you know, or sense, that you're wrong but don't have the courage or integrity to admit it?

By the way, your Auschwitz links are irrelevant to what you wrote about the estimates of the death toll at Auschwitz in the immediate postwar years. You told us that it would make sense for the Soviets to base their estimates on what you say prisoners told them. We can debate that and to what degree and how witness statements should be used for this purpose. But what is not debatable is that the two links you provided fail to tell us what the Soviets heard from witnesses after the liberation of Auschwitz. You see, to clarify what this question of what the Soviets heard in the late ‘40s, you cited “Remarks by Fred S. Zeidman” (who appears to have been born in 1947) delivered 22 April 2004 at the USHMM and a statement made in January 2015 by Irene Fogel Weis, based on her perceptions of a unique period in the camp's history - when the Hungarian Jews were arriving.

Majdanek first. That's what I asked you to prove, not Auschwitz. Auschwitz later, after you answer what I asked you about Majdanek. Coward.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:41 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:If "Documentation shows that 4 million people were never sent to auschwitz and nowhere close to 1.5 million people were sent to Majdanek" then where does the documentation say they went?

Jesus wept.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:why wouldn't they base their estimates on the assumption that these gas chambers were operating 24/7 and killing 2000 people at a time? That's what the witnesses say was happening.

Let's stick with Majdanek for a moment: which witnesses say that at Majdanek the gas chambers were operating 24/7 and killing 2000 people at a time? Name them and give us citations to where witnesses said this. Also, out of curiosity, what books, testimonies, trial materials, etc have you read about Majdanek - or is Majdanek another camp like Chełmno about which you are clueless?

No, let's stick with Auschwitz: When the Hungarian Jews arrived they had the gas chambers going day and night. How can you wrap your imagination round that? I still can’t. or The gas chambers operated around the clock, consuming ten thousand lives a day. The ovens burned hundreds an hour.



Forged documents, Mary. Let's get crackin'.
Monstrous won't give me any, what do you have?

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:44 am

Monstrous estimated 10 forged docs, then did some funny maths with the EG reports, so maybe 10, maybe 100 . . . can Mary clear this up?

This should be easy. If there are 10 forged docs, leaving aside the EG reports, what the hell is taking these guys so long?
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:48 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:If "Documentation shows that 4 million people were never sent to auschwitz and nowhere close to 1.5 million people were sent to Majdanek" then where does the documentation say they went?

Jesus wept.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:why wouldn't they base their estimates on the assumption that these gas chambers were operating 24/7 and killing 2000 people at a time? That's what the witnesses say was happening.

Let's stick with Majdanek for a moment: which witnesses say that at Majdanek the gas chambers were operating 24/7 and killing 2000 people at a time? Name them and give us citations to where witnesses said this. Also, out of curiosity, what books, testimonies, trial materials, etc have you read about Majdanek - or is Majdanek another camp like Chełmno about which you are clueless?

No, let's stick with Auschwitz: When the Hungarian Jews arrived they had the gas chambers going day and night. How can you wrap your imagination round that? I still can’t. or The gas chambers operated around the clock, consuming ten thousand lives a day. The ovens burned hundreds an hour.



You wanted to go with Auschwitz.

I'll tell you what, Mary. Let's start slow.
From what I remember this particular document gave Butz fits. He got all tangled up trying to explain "gassing cellar."

https://web.archive.org/web/20150323222 ... ngskeller/

So, what is this? Is it a forgery? Is it real but misunderstood?
What?

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:51 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Monstrous estimated 10 forged docs, then did some funny maths with the EG reports, so maybe 10, maybe 100 . . . can Mary clear this up?

This should be easy. If there are 10 forged docs, leaving aside the ER reports, what the hell is taking these guys so long?


That's what I want to know. Shouldn't be hard.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:15 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Monstrous estimated 10 forged docs, then did some funny maths with the EG reports, so maybe 10, maybe 100 . . . can Mary clear this up?

This should be easy. If there are 10 forged docs, leaving aside the ER reports, what the hell is taking these guys so long?


That's what I want to know. Shouldn't be hard.


funny, because in X's Forgery Thread alone, Monstrous listed maybe seven or eight docs. He mentioned a few more in other threads So he has painted himself into a corner. Or, he can shift the goalposts again and make a himself out as an even bigger moron.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:45 am

Nice.

Jeff_36 has put Monstrous into a bit of a jam . . . or, rather, Monstrous got himself into a jam and Jeff_36 was the only one of us to notice. Sweet.

So I went back through that thread and found it hard to tell precisely which items Monstrous intended, as he linked to Metapedia pages discussing multiple documents, some being discussed there for reasons other than forgery.

At the very least, Monstrous listed these:

1. Gerstein report
2. Franke-Griksch report
3. Obersalzberg speech
4. Hossbach memorandum
5. Generalplan Ost
6. Joseph Hell interview
7. Hermann Rauschning's memoir
8. Shrunken heads, lampshade
9. “Death Mills” movie

Elsewhere, he's claimed

10. Posen speeches
11. Sonthofen speech
12. Wannsee (I think, Monstrous wasn't clear about this one)

Nearly all of these "forgeries" have been discussed here, here, here, and in other threads and posts - some of the listed documents clearly are not forgeries, some Monstrous has given no evidence for, some aren't relevant to the Holocaust. (I can add that recently I read a scholarly article exploring the dubious nature of two well-known wartime documents, neither core evidence of the Final Solution but both often quoted; Monstrous and Mary haven't mentioned either of these unreliable documents!) But whatever.

Holy moly, Monstrous has already listed more supposed forgeries than the "maybe 10" he claims . . .

Repeat request for any denier with the cojones to reply here:

    • Set down your definitive list of forged documents - 10, 100, any number of your choosing (however, if you come up with more than 10, Monstrous will look like a buffoon or liar).
    • Tell us which of the documents on your list were forged by the Soviets, which were forged by other parties (who, when, where).
    • Provide the positive evidence highlights for how you know.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sat Sep 03, 2016 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Darren Wilshak » Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:14 pm

Challenging.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:41 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Mary is at it again, posting unadulterated BS, which she tries passing off as cleverness. But I do enjoy Mary’s posts. They’re just so dumb. I think she’s read a denier piece or two and thinks she’s learned.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:The Dachau gas chamber was presented in Prosecution Exhibit #230--the film Nazi Concentration Campsduring the IMT. The film was made in August 1945 . . .

The film Mary cites was presented by the prosecution at Nuremberg on IIRC 29 November 1945; the film included material on camps in Arnstadt, Germany; Belsen, Germany; Breendonck, Belgium; Buchenwald, Germany; Dachau, Germany; Hadamar, Germany; Hannover, Germany; Leipzig, Germany; Mauthausen, Austria; Nordhausen, Germany; Ohrdruf, Germany; and Penig, Germany.

< snip intriguing prose >

The film “Nazi Concentration Camps” (here - warning: graphic footage, parts are IMO not watchable), shown during the Nuremberg trial, is about an hour long. Here are some high-level notes on relevant points concerning Dachau but also the other camps shown (noting a few obvious errors):

Leipzig - political prisoners; Russians, Czechs, Poles, French

Penig - mainly Hungarians

Ohrdruf - political prisoners, footage of visit of Eisenhower, Bradley, & Patton - Poles, Czechs, Russians, Belgians, Frenchmen, German Jews [13:38], German political prisoners

Hadamar “Concentration Camp” - 35,000 Poles, Russians, Germans for political and religious considerations; 15,000 of the victims killed in a “lethal gas chamber” - corpses of victims of lethal injections shown

Meppene - “Stalag VI-C for Russian prisoners”

Munster - Stalag VI-F - Frenchmen, Belgians

Breendonck (Belgium) - “Belgian patriots”

Nordhausen - slave labor camp, political prisoners (2,500 unburied bodies), footage of emaciated survivors of forced labor, “mainly Poles and Russian with considerable numbers of French and other nationalities included in the camp roster”

Hanover - “Polish men”

Arnstadt - “mainly Poles and Russians”; citizens from Weimar made to view purported lampshade made of human skin and other such on display table, also shrunken heads

Mauthausen - Jack Taylor, an American officer held in the camp: “an extermination camp, the worst in Germany [s/b Austria], where we have been starving and beaten and killed” (shows dog tags of two American Army officers “executed by gas in this Lager”; says executions were done in “5 or 6 ways, by gas, by shooting, by beating, that is, beating with clubs, by exposure . . . , starvation, dogs, and pushing over a 100 foot cliff”)

Buchenwald - 1000 boys among the 20,000 male survivors, “representing every European nationality,” camp dates to 1933 (error); “termed an extermination factory; the means of extermination? starvation complicated by hard work, abuse, beatings and tortures, incredibly crowded sleeping conditions and sicknesses of all types” - 10s of 1000s exterminated - Topf cremation ovens and elements of corpse disposal process

Dachau - [40:52 - 47:24] “factory of horror” - described by Nazis as prison for "political dissenters, habitual criminals and religious enthusiasts" (! -clergy in fact) - Germans, Poles, Czechs, French, Dutch - focus on death transports (death from exposure, starvation, dysentery, typhus) - crematory - [from what I know, this is not correct] “hanging on orderly rows were the clothing of prisoners who had been suffocated in lethal gas chambers; they had been persuaded to remove their clothing under the pretext of taking a shower” - [45:36] shot of “Brausebad” (dummy shower heads etc, engineer’s room and controls for gas. etc, cyanide powder canister) [end 46:18 - 42 seconds] - cremation ovens (no description of investigation process)

Belsen - burial of 17,000 so far, about half that number to go - statement of prisoner-doctor - footage of Josef Kramer being taken into custody - “inside Belsen, the same story, starvation and sickness”

Now Marydogz comes along and tries magically to transmogrify this movie into the progenitor of a supposed myth of the mass murder of more than two million European Jews in gas chambers - "Nazi Concentration Camps" connecting, Mary says, to "the steam chambers, the four million victims, the one and a half million victims." Seriously?

Btw, just curious, how does Marydogz explain the corpses in the footage shown? the emaciated and ravaged bodies of survivors? Atrocity actors? Victims of the allies?

(Notes: 1. There are a few clearly referenced scenes in which prisoners demonstrate through re-enactments how they were mistreated; these parallel the Dachau cremation reenactment shown in the thread on photo authenticity. 2. This post merely details what Nick Terry summarized earlier; Nick further rubbished Mary's argument about Dachau by referencing other film evidence.)
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:10 am

Here’s a classic example (to which I was sent a link today) of another thread like this one, showing what happens when deniers are asked to explain something and provide a narrative about the history: ”What happened to the "resettled" Jews?”

Check out been-there’s attempt to revive the discussion - of what happened to the so-called resettled Jews - with a post on Hitler's name! LOL Other priceless moments: after going on about the EGs, blake121666 posts “I'm not aware of EG trials. Where might one find info?”; blake121666 throws up his hands and admits that, despite posting prolifically in the thread, he cannot offer anything positive - and will I please stop picking on him? and, tucked about 3/4 of the way down in this post, I reply to been-there’s explanation for where Jews went: “very young children were adopted and 'Germanised'.” There are so many Stundie-worthy moments, hough - I really have trouble picking out especially been-there’s gems.

We’re on solid ground, here, it seems. The deniers once again try doing anything but providing an explanation to the question asked.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:52 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Here’s a classic example of another thread like this one, showing what happens when deniers are asked to explain something and provide a narrative about the history: ”What happened to the "resettled" Jews?”

Check out been-there’s attempt to revive the discussion - of what happened to the so-called resettled Jews - with a post on Hitler's name! LOL Other priceless moments: after going on about the EGs, blake121666 posts “I'm not aware of EG trials. Where might one find info?”; blake121666 throws up his hands and admits that, despite posting prolifically in the thread, he cannot offer anything positive - and will I please stop picking on him? and, tucked about 3/4 of the way down in this post, I reply to been-there’s explanation for where Jews went: “6. very young children were adopted and 'Germanised’’.” There are so many Stundie-worthy moments, hough - I really have trouble picking out especially been-there’s gems.

We’re on solid ground, here, it seems.



Well, you at least get some semblance of a discussion.

I always get a rather lofty "it is the responsibility of the accuser to prove his case, not for me to prove where the Jews went" argument. Then I usually get the whole "the burden of proof" lies with me speech.

Or I get the fact that Jews were alive at the end of war proves that Hitler wasn't trying to kill all the Jews.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:33 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Well, you at least get some semblance of a discussion.

I always get a rather lofty "it is the responsibility of the accuser to prove his case, not for me to prove where the Jews went" argument. Then I usually get the whole "the burden of proof" lies with me speech.

Or I get the fact that Jews were alive at the end of war proves that Hitler wasn't trying to kill all the Jews.

And, for where Jews ostensibly went, they always manage to bring up, to quote been-there, "the missing millions from PREVIOUS Auschwitz figures" and some goofy, tortured demographics.

But the pattern of diversion and dodging is really familiar . . . we just lack deniers with cojones to carry on more . . .
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Denying-History » Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:43 am

Lol well I just read SM's response to lol'd and it was a good laugh.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Balsamo » Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:16 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Well, you at least get some semblance of a discussion.

I always get a rather lofty "it is the responsibility of the accuser to prove his case, not for me to prove where the Jews went" argument. Then I usually get the whole "the burden of proof" lies with me speech.

Or I get the fact that Jews were alive at the end of war proves that Hitler wasn't trying to kill all the Jews.

And, for where Jews ostensibly went, they always manage to bring up, to quote been-there, "the missing millions from PREVIOUS Auschwitz figures" and some goofy, tortured demographics.

But the pattern of diversion and dodging is really familiar . . . we just lack deniers with cojones to carry on more . . .



Actually, i remember an answer that summed it all: "Jews went where they are"... Why making things complicated?

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:10 am

Mary wants us to believe that Dachau played an important role in shaping the hoax which falsely asserts that the Nazis conducted an extermination campaign against the European Jews. Above I’ve offered a bit of a content analysis of the Nuremberg film that Mary has said is so central to this: it shows nothing of the sort.

But what of the late 1940s and 1950s reporting on Dachau and commemorative activities at the former KL. During this period, as early as fall 1945, survivors maintained a small display at the former large crematorium building and published a number of pamphlets which depicted what had happened in Dachau during the war.

The first display in the crematorium building used life-size mannequins to show how the SS abused prisoners in Dachau: the block (on which prisoners were flogged), pole hanging (the technique by which prisoners were suspended from a pole with their hands tied behind their backs), and the standing punishment (in this case collective punishment for an escape attempt). Photographs of the mannequins “acting out” punishments along with a demonstration of how corpses were disposed of in the crematory (discussed recently in another thread) were made into postcards for visitors to the site to purchase. In an early pamphlet, with 23 images, over half concerned the worst atrocities committed against prisoners: there were photos of the death train and corpses heaped in front of the crematorium building as well as the series of corpse-incineration reenactment photos. Revisions of this pamphlet added in photographs of the camp buildings and grounds from wartime and images from the Dachau trial in fall 1945. There was a montage of the Statue of Liberty and barbed wire to honor the Americans as liberators of the camp; one image - showing a prisoner carrying an emaciated fellow prisoner - was labeled “Their Sacrifice, Our Guilt / MAKE GOOD THROUGH COMPENSATION.”

Later editions of the pamphlet culled the atrocity photos and increased the number of photos of the camp grounds, adding in recent shots of grave sites. Pages were devoted to information on the prisoner population and art work depicting life in the camp.

By 1950 the mannequins showing atrocities had been removed from the display in the crematorium. The exhibit now featured for the first time a brief overview of the development of the concentration camp system administered by the SS, adding in context lacking in earlier renditions. Photographs took on a more commemorative tone, with a series of shots of the Leiten site (a mass burial ground transformed into a memorial by this time) and another set showing the dedication of a commemorative sculpture. A graph showing the annual inflow of prisoners and a chart on the triangle badges worn by prisoners were now also featured. Inside the crematorium were signs saying “Brausebad” over the gas chamber door, as shown in the film shot during liberation of the camp; also, at the disinfection chambers at one end of the crematory were the original SS signs that read “Gassing time / Closed ____ / Open ____” - without explanation and thus leading to confusion on the part of visitors.

By this time, the survivors’ groups focused more on resistance to Nazism and less on atrocities. This political orientation of the main survivors’ group, which included many left wing prisoners, led to a great deal of controversy and eventually the disbanding of the group, under Cold War and local pressures. The statue commemorating the “unknown prisoner” was placed in front of the crematorium. Religious memorials were also added, most of them presenting generalized religious themes rather than showing camp history. Early on, for example, in 1945 when the camp housed SS internees, a small chapel symbolizing perpetrator atonement had been built at the site. In 1950 between 30,000 and 60,000 visitors came to the camp for a dedication of a new Catholic chapel, which was built at the end of the prisoner camp opposite the entry gate and Jourhaus. The symbolism in the chapel focused on Christ’s suffering and did not have historical content. One distinguished guest at the dedication ceremony was the 83-year-old Hajmar Schacht.

A series of articles in the press and various visitor reports complained about the lackluster quality and state of the exhibit and site as a whole, one report citing the guides as rote and callous. I am unable to find any special focus on Jews in the camp - most of the materials from this period apparently dealt with the SS, the prisoners' resistance, Western European victims including Germans, and religious themes, for example, the clerics who were concentrated in Dachau. National groupings of ex-prisoners were active, especially the French, in efforts of memorialization and collection memory as well as in visiting the camp site, which after the war was used principally, first, as a prison for Nazi offenders and, then, as a refugee camp for Germans who were expelled or fled from the east.

In the early 1950s, due to a variety of complaints, many of them from locals who felt that the display tarnished the town of Dachau’s image, the exhibit in the crematorium was was removed, many of the directional signs that had been added were taken down, and serious discussion of tearing the building down took place.

The claim that the early postwar use of Dachau was to create and bolster a "story line" promoting the genocide of the Jews in the east flies in the face of the camp's actual postwar record. All this would have been a stunningly dumb and terribly ineffective way to hoax the Holocaust.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:31 am

Could the large amount of religious and religious themed memorials be a result of the many, many Polish and other clergy who were killed there?

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:24 am

Indeed, one purpose to which Dachau was put was the collection of Christian clergy being held in protective custody in Nazi camps - by the end of 1940 there were 2,762 clergy in Dachau, 2,579 of whom were Catholic priests (1,780 were Poles, 447 were Germans). The clergy were treated differently to the general population, with special housing in barracks set aside for them, permission to have a chapel, and other privileges (for a time, lighter labor assignments, permission to receive packages from their parishes, etc).

Still, 1,034 members of the clergy died in Dachau.

There was a postwar survivors organization for German priests held there, which was active for many years, called KZ-Priests. Martin Niemoller was a German Protestant held in the camp. The commemorative approach of clergy - which focused on atonement and reconciliation (and, my sense is, reflected the special experience of clergy in the camp) - differed to that of other survivor groups. One of the most active priests, during his incarceration and postwar, Leonhard Roth, wore the black triangle of the asocials; Roth was active in both the religious memorialization and in the general survivors' groups. Bishop Johannes Neuhaüsler was another Catholic in Dachau (he was sent to Sachsenhausen, then Dachau he surmised due to publication of a book in NY critical of the Third Reich, which seemed to echo concerns raised by the Bavarian church) especially active after the war - he promoted the construction of the Chapel of Christ's Mortal Fear in 1960 and wrote a book on Dachau.

None of this history fits the stereotypes and calumnies which Mary is trying to put across with her deplorable and ludicrous explanation of the evolution of the "hoax."
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:42 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Indeed, one purpose to which Dachau was put was the collection of Christian clergy being held in protective custody in Nazi camps - by the end of 1940 there were 2,762 clergy in Dachau, 2,579 of whom were Catholic priests (1,780 were Poles, 447 were Germans). The clergy were treated differently to the general population, with special housing in barracks set aside for them, permission to have a chapel, and other privileges (for a time, lighter labor assignments, permission to receive packages from their parishes, etc).


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have read on several occasions that the treatment of Polish Clergy differed from German clergy, that German clergy were accorded the treatment that you mentioned while Polish priests were treated terribly and most if not all did not survive. I cannot remember if it was in relation to Dachau or to Mathausen-Gusen.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:30 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Indeed, one purpose to which Dachau was put was the collection of Christian clergy being held in protective custody in Nazi camps - by the end of 1940 there were 2,762 clergy in Dachau, 2,579 of whom were Catholic priests (1,780 were Poles, 447 were Germans). The clergy were treated differently to the general population, with special housing in barracks set aside for them, permission to have a chapel, and other privileges (for a time, lighter labor assignments, permission to receive packages from their parishes, etc).


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have read on several occasions that the treatment of Polish Clergy differed from German clergy, that German clergy were accorded the treatment that you mentioned while Polish priests were treated terribly and most if not all did not survive. I cannot remember if it was in relation to Dachau or to Mathausen-Gusen.


Wachsman, KL, pages 563-564:

I'm summarizing this, a Kapo named Rost noted that March 21st, 1945 that the prisoners who were most likely to survive at this point were the kitchen staff because they had access to the most food, the Kapos, German prisoners but he also stated that:
"Likewise, there were few deaths in the barracks holding Czech prisoners and priests, who received food packages from outside. “But everywhere else,” Rost wrote, “bodies—bodies—bodies.”

So, at least during this period Czech priests and prisoners were receiving food packages (Red Cross?) from the outside. Likewise Norwegian prisoners received Red Cross packages ( see Wachsman, chapter "Beginning of the End").

I've glanced through Wachsman's book, I can't remember if there was anything specific about the treatment of Polish priests in particular in the concentration camp system. I'm actually re-reading the book now, I may have to go back a few chapters.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:38 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have read on several occasions that the treatment of Polish Clergy differed from German clergy, that German clergy were accorded the treatment that you mentioned while Polish priests were treated terribly and most if not all did not survive. I cannot remember if it was in relation to Dachau or to Mathausen-Gusen.

That's correct. Vs. other prisoners the clergy had certain advantages in their treatment - but among the clergy the Germans were treated better than the others. This is from the official camp history (1968, 1975).

Jeffk 1970 wrote:a Kapo named Rost

Is Rost Nico Rost?
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:42 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Indeed, one purpose to which Dachau was put was the collection of Christian clergy being held in protective custody in Nazi camps - by the end of 1940 there were 2,762 clergy in Dachau, 2,579 of whom were Catholic priests (1,780 were Poles, 447 were Germans). The clergy were treated differently to the general population, with special housing in barracks set aside for them, permission to have a chapel, and other privileges (for a time, lighter labor assignments, permission to receive packages from their parishes, etc).

Still, 1,034 members of the clergy died in Dachau.

There was a postwar survivors organization for German priests held there, which was active for many years, called KZ-Priests. Martin Niemoller was a German Protestant held in the camp. The commemorative approach of clergy - which focused on atonement and reconciliation (and, my sense is, reflected the special experience of clergy in the camp) - differed to that of other survivor groups. One of the most active priests, during his incarceration and postwar, Leonhard Roth, wore the black triangle of the asocials; Roth was active in both the religious memorialization and in the general survivors' groups. Bishop Johannes Neuhaüsler was another Catholic in Dachau (he was sent to Sachsenhausen, then Dachau he surmised due to publication of a book in NY critical of the Third Reich, which seemed to echo concerns raised by the Bavarian church) especially active after the war - he promoted the construction of the Chapel of Christ's Mortal Fear in 1960 and wrote a book on Dachau.

None of this history fits the stereotypes and calumnies which Mary is trying to put across with her deplorable and ludicrous explanation of the evolution of the "hoax."
None of this history is relevant to the Holocaust either.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:43 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Indeed, one purpose to which Dachau was put was the collection of Christian clergy being held in protective custody in Nazi camps - by the end of 1940 there were 2,762 clergy in Dachau, 2,579 of whom were Catholic priests (1,780 were Poles, 447 were Germans). The clergy were treated differently to the general population, with special housing in barracks set aside for them, permission to have a chapel, and other privileges (for a time, lighter labor assignments, permission to receive packages from their parishes, etc).

Still, 1,034 members of the clergy died in Dachau.

There was a postwar survivors organization for German priests held there, which was active for many years, called KZ-Priests. Martin Niemoller was a German Protestant held in the camp. The commemorative approach of clergy - which focused on atonement and reconciliation (and, my sense is, reflected the special experience of clergy in the camp) - differed to that of other survivor groups. One of the most active priests, during his incarceration and postwar, Leonhard Roth, wore the black triangle of the asocials; Roth was active in both the religious memorialization and in the general survivors' groups. Bishop Johannes Neuhaüsler was another Catholic in Dachau (he was sent to Sachsenhausen, then Dachau he surmised due to publication of a book in NY critical of the Third Reich, which seemed to echo concerns raised by the Bavarian church) especially active after the war - he promoted the construction of the Chapel of Christ's Mortal Fear in 1960 and wrote a book on Dachau.

None of this history fits the stereotypes and calumnies which Mary is trying to put across with her deplorable and ludicrous explanation of the evolution of the "hoax."
None of this history is relevant to the Holocaust either.

Good, now you get the point. It took long enough.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:55 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have read on several occasions that the treatment of Polish Clergy differed from German clergy, that German clergy were accorded the treatment that you mentioned while Polish priests were treated terribly and most if not all did not survive. I cannot remember if it was in relation to Dachau or to Mathausen-Gusen.

That's correct. Vs. other prisoners the clergy had certain advantages in their treatment - but among the clergy the Germans were treated better than the others. This is from the official camp history (1968, 1975).

Jeffk 1970 wrote:a Kapo named Rost

Is Rost Nico Rost?


Yes, Nico Rost.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:04 pm

He worked in the infirmary, IIRC, and after the war he published his Dachau diary, an account of camp life in Dachau, under the title Goethe in Dachau. A Dutch communist, Rost was active in the postwar survivors' movement.

Mary's comment was really funny, btw. Do you think she will ever try answering the question you asked in the OP, now that her Dachau gambit's a shambles, or will complain more that other posts are as unrelated to the Holocaust as her witterings?
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:27 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:He worked in the infirmary, IIRC, and after the war he published his Dachau diary, an account of camp life in Dachau, under the title Goethe in Dachau. A Dutch communist, Rost was active in the postwar survivors' movement.

Mary's comment was really funny, btw. Do you think she will ever try answering the question you asked in the OP, now that her Dachau gambit's a shambles, or will complain more that other posts are as unrelated to the Holocaust as her witterings?


I'm trying to find a copy of Dachau: The Official History 1933-1945 by Paul Berben. It's a little old but the information I'm getting about the "Priest Barrack" is coming from his book. Amazon has it, I can't get it now but I'm going to order it when I get a chance.

As far as Mary goes, nice of her show up after so long away. It's typical denier behavior, stay away from anything relevant and pick at the edges. I'm still waiting on "forged documents."

I'm starting to see more internet stirring over the movie "Denial." I can't wait to see the complaining when it premieres.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:33 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:He worked in the infirmary, IIRC, and after the war he published his Dachau diary, an account of camp life in Dachau, under the title Goethe in Dachau. A Dutch communist, Rost was active in the postwar survivors' movement.

Mary's comment was really funny, btw. Do you think she will ever try answering the question you asked in the OP, now that her Dachau gambit's a shambles, or will complain more that other posts are as unrelated to the Holocaust as her witterings?


I'm trying to find a copy of Dachau: The Official History 1933-1945 by Paul Berben. It's a little old but the information I'm getting about the "Priest Barrack" is coming from his book. Amazon has it, I can't get it now but I'm going to order it when I get a chance.

As far as Mary goes, nice of her show up after so long away. It's typical denier behavior, stay away from anything relevant and pick at the edges. I'm still waiting on "forged documents."

I'm starting to see more internet stirring over the movie "Denial." I can't wait to see the complaining when it premieres.

LOL that's the book I was drawing from! I have it in front of me if you want me to look anything up . . .

My main sources are Berben's official history; Distel & Jakusch, Concentration Camp Dachau 1933-1945; Distel et al, The Dachau Concentration Camp, 1933 to 1945 with CD; Timothy Ryback, Hitler's First Victims; Dachau Review Vol 1 (with articles by Distel, Benz and others); USHMM Encyclopedia; Wachsmann; KL; Marcuse, Legacies of Dachau; and Dillon, Dachau and the SS.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:44 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:As far as Mary goes, nice of her show up after so long away. It's typical denier behavior, stay away from anything relevant and pick at the edges. I'm still waiting on "forged documents."

{!#%@}, I even started her list of 10 for her - and she's free to disagree with Monstrous on the total number and list forged documents to her heart's content. She's probably stymied by two things: 1) she doesn't know so many documents and 2) whatever she lists, she knows we are going to ask about each item, how she knows, what's her evidence, etc.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:18 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:He worked in the infirmary, IIRC, and after the war he published his Dachau diary, an account of camp life in Dachau, under the title Goethe in Dachau. A Dutch communist, Rost was active in the postwar survivors' movement.

Mary's comment was really funny, btw. Do you think she will ever try answering the question you asked in the OP, now that her Dachau gambit's a shambles, or will complain more that other posts are as unrelated to the Holocaust as her witterings?


I'm trying to find a copy of Dachau: The Official History 1933-1945 by Paul Berben. It's a little old but the information I'm getting about the "Priest Barrack" is coming from his book. Amazon has it, I can't get it now but I'm going to order it when I get a chance.

As far as Mary goes, nice of her show up after so long away. It's typical denier behavior, stay away from anything relevant and pick at the edges. I'm still waiting on "forged documents."

I'm starting to see more internet stirring over the movie "Denial." I can't wait to see the complaining when it premieres.

LOL that's the book I was drawing from! I have it in front of me if you want me to look anything up . . .

My main sources are Berben's official history; Distel & Jakusch, Concentration Camp Dachau 1933-1945; Distel et al, The Dachau Concentration Camp, 1933 to 1945 with CD; Timothy Ryback, Hitler's First Victims; Dachau Review Vol 1 (with articles by Distel, Benz and others); USHMM Encyclopedia; Wachsmann; KL; Marcuse, Legacies of Dachau; and Dillon, Dachau and the SS.


Thanks for the sources, I've got a list started! You and Nick Terry gave some excellent books to check out.
I'm starting to look for sources on specific camps, when I get a chance my library has a book on Ravensbruck I'm going to read.
Wachsman's book is excellent as an overview but I wanted to take a closer look at some of the individual camps. I've started looking at Amazon and other places.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:23 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:As far as Mary goes, nice of her show up after so long away. It's typical denier behavior, stay away from anything relevant and pick at the edges. I'm still waiting on "forged documents."

{!#%@}, I even started her list of 10 for her - and she's free to disagree with Monstrous on the total number and list forged documents to her heart's content. She's probably stymied by two things: 1) she doesn't know so many documents and 2) whatever she lists, she knows we are going to ask about each item, how she knows, what's her evidence, etc.


Nick Terry mentioned on ISF how he helped clear a Trawniki man as part of a British investigation.
It floored me the things he mentioned he had, among other things personnel documents from both Eastern and Western Europe. This is what I mean about having to coordinate "forgeries" so that each matches the other. It's impossible to do this, you would get tripped up trying to create or alter documents so that things like camp assignments and personnel records would have to match. A lot of these documents are not available on line so the general public isn't even aware of them.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:12 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:my library has a book on Ravensbruck

Which one? Sarah Helm's is the one to read IMO.

Quick thoughts on KLs: Sellier's book on Dora-Mittelbau is worth reading, as are on Mauthausen-Gusen the books by David Wingeate Pike and Rudolf Haunschmied. There is also a good book on the Mauthausen trial by Tomaz Jardim. The recent book on Majdanek (Female SS Guards and Workaday Violence: The Majdanek Concentration Camp, 1942-1944) by Eiissa Mailänder is very good - it focuses on the Aufseherinnen, the female guards at the camp, and on the overall daily life in the camp, not mainly the extermination role of Majdanek (there's too much on Auschwitz to list off the top of my head!). Marc Buggeln's book Slave Labor in Nazi Concentration Camps is really about Neuengamme subcamps and useful. I thought Bella Gutterman, A Narrow Bridge to Life, on Gross-Rosen, was good. Excellent, on a lesser known but important camp, is Felicja Karay's book Death Comes in Yellow on Skarzysko-Kamienna. I also recommend Blatman's book on the death marches. I also should add Kim Wünschmann's Before Auschwitz: Jewish Prisoners in the Prewar Concentration Camps and Michael Thad Allen, The Business of Genocide: The SS, Slave Labor, and the Concentration Camps. (I'm eagerly awaiting the arrival of Adler's classic book on Theresienstadt, I forget the pub date . . . )
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:14 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:As far as Mary goes, nice of her show up after so long away. It's typical denier behavior, stay away from anything relevant and pick at the edges. I'm still waiting on "forged documents."

{!#%@}, I even started her list of 10 for her - and she's free to disagree with Monstrous on the total number and list forged documents to her heart's content. She's probably stymied by two things: 1) she doesn't know so many documents and 2) whatever she lists, she knows we are going to ask about each item, how she knows, what's her evidence, etc.


Nick Terry mentioned on ISF how he helped clear a Trawniki man as part of a British investigation.
It floored me the things he mentioned he had, among other things personnel documents from both Eastern and Western Europe. This is what I mean about having to coordinate "forgeries" so that each matches the other. It's impossible to do this, you would get tripped up trying to create or alter documents so that things like camp assignments and personnel records would have to match. A lot of these documents are not available on line so the general public isn't even aware of them.

Very good point: Mary lacks the knowledge to know what is out there in terms of documents and is a little bit shy about coughing up any choices because, as we saw with Monstrous in the EG thread, she fears we can surface "unknown" documents that rubbish her claim.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:24 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:my library has a book on Ravensbruck

Which one? Sarah Helm's is the one to read IMO.

Quick thoughts on KLs: Sellier's book on Dora-Mittelbau is worth reading, as are on Mauthausen-Gusen the books by David Wingeate Pike and Rudolf Haunschmied. There is also a good book on the Mauthausen trial by Tomaz Jardim. The recent book on Majdanek (Female SS Guards and Workaday Violence: The Majdanek Concentration Camp, 1942-1944) by Eiissa Mailänder is very good - it focuses on the Aufseherinnen, the female guards at the camp, and on the overall daily life in the camp, not mainly the extermination role of Majdanek (there's too much on Auschwitz to list off the top of my head!). Marc Buggeln's book Slave Labor in Nazi Concentration Camps is really about Neuengamme subcamps and useful. I thought Bella Gutterman, A Narrow Bridge to Life, on Gross-Rosen, was good. Excellent, on a lesser known but important camp, is Felicja Karay's book Death Comes in Yellow on Skarzysko-Kamienna. I also recommend Blatman's book on the death marches. I also should add Kim Wünschmann's Before Auschwitz: Jewish Prisoners in the Prewar Concentration Camps and Michael Thad Allen, The Business of Genocide: The SS, Slave Labor, and the Concentration Camps. (I'm eagerly awaiting the arrival of Adler's classic book on Theresienstadt, I forget the pub date . . . )


I have purchased Helm's book and will commence it when I get the time to. IIRC Ravensbruck was one of the worst Kl's in terms of death toll - nearly 100,000. There were all kinds of twisted medical experiments going on, mostly with Polish prisoners.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:30 pm

The infamous "rabbits," hideous stuff. There was also a gas chamber there, which I add only to make Mary gleeful. Helm's book is less academic and scholarly than I like but she does one hell of a job of making life in the camp real and really establishing the context for what was going on there and what prisoners experienced. The other books I've read on Ravensbrück are nowhere near as good.

Mary really needs to step things up in this thread. She is exposing her lack of knowledge, she is not a tenth as clever as she imagines, and overall she's lackluster. She hasn't even come up with delightfully warped nonsense like she did in pretending that Standartenführer Jäger was 1941's model of Lynndie England and Charles Graner. Her performance in this thread is just dreary and dumb. Maybe she'll be calling for reinforcements?
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:36 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:my library has a book on Ravensbruck

Which one? Sarah Helm's is the one to read IMO.

Quick thoughts on KLs: Sellier's book on Dora-Mittelbau is worth reading, as are on Mauthausen-Gusen the books by David Wingeate Pike and Rudolf Haunschmied. There is also a good book on the Mauthausen trial by Tomaz Jardim. The recent book on Majdanek (Female SS Guards and Workaday Violence: The Majdanek Concentration Camp, 1942-1944) by Eiissa Mailänder is very good - it focuses on the Aufseherinnen, the female guards at the camp, and on the overall daily life in the camp, not mainly the extermination role of Majdanek (there's too much on Auschwitz to list off the top of my head!). Marc Buggeln's book Slave Labor in Nazi Concentration Camps is really about Neuengamme subcamps and useful. I thought Bella Gutterman, A Narrow Bridge to Life, on Gross-Rosen, was good. Excellent, on a lesser known but important camp, is Felicja Karay's book Death Comes in Yellow on Skarzysko-Kamienna. I also recommend Blatman's book on the death marches. I also should add Kim Wünschmann's Before Auschwitz: Jewish Prisoners in the Prewar Concentration Camps and Michael Thad Allen, The Business of Genocide: The SS, Slave Labor, and the Concentration Camps. (I'm eagerly awaiting the arrival of Adler's classic book on Theresienstadt, I forget the pub date . . . )


I have purchased Helm's book and will commence it when I get the time to. IIRC Ravensbruck was one of the worst Kl's in terms of death toll - nearly 100,000. There were all kinds of twisted medical experiments going on, mostly with Polish prisoners.


I have an app called Overdrive, it links to my local library system. I checked out Helm's book, I haven't had a chance to start it yet. I'll add any thoughts I have in the books thread.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:14 am

Might be a good idea to share this important information - the existence of libraries and interlibrary loan and apps and stuff - with EtienneSC over at ISF. He seems befuddled on the topic.

If we had a thread on Ravensbrück, would Mary post ignorant nonsense in that thread, too?
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:03 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Might be a good idea to share this important information - the existence of libraries and interlibrary loan and apps and stuff - with EtienneSC over at ISF. He seems befuddled on the topic.

If we had a thread on Ravensbrück, would Mary post ignorant nonsense in that thread, too?


I'll open one when I get done with Helm's book and do some other research. We'll give Mary and others a chance to impale themselves.


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