So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

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Mary Q Contrary
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:12 am

Denying-History wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Not being able to answer me doesn't mean I'm off topic.


Jeff's still waiting for you to answer his question, which you still haven't done. You literally just said some things, presented no evidence, then said it happened cause it happened.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:I don't have any proof of Soviet/Polish forensic methods. I don't know what they are. I just assumed that their scientists are as honest and competent as our scientists so there's no reason to reject their findings.


Thanks for finally admitting you don't have proof, so you can stop lying now.

Their estimates were based on a combination of cremation rate, shoes, clothing, ect. They treated the camp's (Auschwitz and Majdanek) well out of reality. That is unless you really believe that Majdaneks ovens could "incinerate four corpses was fifteen minutes", or that it's "possible to incinerate one thousand nine hundred and twenty corpses in twenty-four hours." Last time I checked museum says 1000 corpses in 24 hours and Pressac says 300 corpses a day. Oh! It also doesn't end there! They also got Auschwitzs cremation cap wrong as well Mary, they even had access to that document I posted for my estimate as well.

OK, so you're saying that Soviets and the Poles made erroneous assumptions and faulty methodologies to arrive at wildly inflated death tolls that were well out of reality?
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:14 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Just because other camps weren't listed explicitly under "certain concentration camps" does not mean they would not have deemed such a camp as Belzec as "set aside for this main purpose".

You are evidently forgetting Believer Prime Directive for Analyzing the Evidence Presented in Court: Allegations of facts presented during a trial cannot be considered proven unless the Court specifically mentions said fact in the written verdict. For example, shrunken heads were submitted into evidence by the Prosecution during the IMT. Because the verdict of the IMT did not mention shrunken heads, the IMT didn't accept them as true and therefore it is irrelevant if some people believe the Nazi's shrunk heads.. Soap was also submitted into evidence. The IMT did say that attempts were made to use bodies in the production of soap in the verdict. So it's true that the Nazis might've made experimental attempts at using human fat for soap production. But the IMT didn't believe soap was produced on a grand scale so it doesn't matter if some people think it was.


That is beside the point, the shunken heads are different then an entire camp. Mind during this period they were focusing on plenty of camps. It has been concluded rather often that Belzec and Sobibor were death camps and you don't seem to be saying this as you claim that Nuremberg had "set them aside".

That has nothing to do with anything we're talking about.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:It's an incredibly stupid rule but it keeps coming up again and again. Here we see that Stat Mech was trying to dismiss the relevance of the Dachau gas chamber because the final verdict of the IMT does not mention the Dachau gas chambers specifically. He failed miserably as do all believers when they try to dismiss the importance of lies, exaggerations, distortions that were submitted into evidence during any war crime trial that are now accepted by Holocaust "scholars" as a lie, an exaggeration, a distortion, or simply a mistake.


Mary, stop saying stupid things... you really aren't helping your case by arguing Dachau. The Case is that at Dachau the witnesses and documents point that the gas chamber was only used for Rascher's experiments. It is not like Belzec and Sobibor at all. You are the one playing games here and ignoring the Trials which followed after Nurembreg.

No, it's not like Belzec and Sobibor. We have an intact working gas chamber at Dachau. Did any of the subsequent trials show a demonstration of how the gas chambers at Belzec and Sobibor operated using the actual gas chamber?

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
To me, including Treblinka in "concentration camps" seems to mean they either knew of T I and T II, or did not have the knowledge at that time to call it strictly a death camp?

I read the verdict to mean that they did recognize Treblinka as a death camp. It specifically mentions Treblinka and Auschwitz as camps that were set aside for extermination with gas. Unlike Treblinka or Auschwitz, Dachau was not a camp set aside for extermination by gas because medical experiments were also conducted there.


Where in the hell did you get this idea? Not ones of us has said that Dachau was a Death camp and is not that dachau was set aside ether. As already said all witnesses say gassing happened on an experimental level, that is even what Rascher's letter to Himmler says.

As you know, the same installation as in Linz is to be built in Dachau. As the 'invalid transports' terminate in the special chambers anyway I wondered if it would be possible to test the effects of our combat gases in these chambers using the persons who are destined for those chambers anyway. The only reports which are available so far are for experiments on animals or of accidents in the manufacture of these gases.


Dachau is harder to prove that Gassings had happened at Dachau cause Dr. Sigmund Rascher was shot to the back of the head on April 26, 1945. As well non of the Germans at the Dachau trial testified that the gas chamber was used for extermination purposes. The only direct witness to gassings is Franciszek Blaha and he said it was only around 9 people being gassed in the showerroom.


So what are you saying? That the Americans showed the operation of a gas chamber that they hadn't proven existed? Dr. Terry insists that Germans had been crowing about the gas chambers long before the end of the war. Surely these Germans were interviewed and were forced to demonstrate how the gas chambers worked. How else would the Americans be able to film a demonstration?

They didn't just make {!#%@} up and submit it into evidence, did they?


Mary, you are OT.
I want to see evidence of this "hoax." I want to see leaks from people in the know, documentation regarding this hoax, eyewitnesses stating they observed this hoax happening or they witnessed conversations regarding this hoax.

Not being able to answer me doesn't mean I'm off topic.

I've also asked you for proof of Soviet/Polish forensic methods. See my previous comment regarding this.

If you can't stay on topic and you don't have proof stop wasting my #%@!ing time.

I don't have any proof of Soviet/Polish forensic methods. I don't know what they are. I just assumed that their scientists are as honest and competent as our scientists so there's no reason to reject their findings.


This thread is about proving the hoax. You have not done that.

So, you are assuming that the Poles and Soviets used proper forensic methods?

Mary, the Soviets said at Nuremberg they used a "coefficient" to determine numbers. They didn't dig up 4 million #%!#ing bodies. They calculated this based upon the crematorium capacity, clothes, luggage, shoes and they thought transports ran every day. Also, based upon the original plaque they thought Auschwitz was a death camp longer than it actually was. Why don't you trouble to learn a few things before spouting off on a subject you obviously know very little about?


OK, so you're also saying that Soviets and the Poles made erroneous assumptions and faulty methodologies to arrive at wildly inflated death tolls that were well out of reality?
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Denying-History » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:57 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Not being able to answer me doesn't mean I'm off topic.


Jeff's still waiting for you to answer his question, which you still haven't done. You literally just said some things, presented no evidence, then said it happened cause it happened.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:I don't have any proof of Soviet/Polish forensic methods. I don't know what they are. I just assumed that their scientists are as honest and competent as our scientists so there's no reason to reject their findings.


Thanks for finally admitting you don't have proof, so you can stop lying now.

Their estimates were based on a combination of cremation rate, shoes, clothing, ect. They treated the camp's (Auschwitz and Majdanek) well out of reality. That is unless you really believe that Majdaneks ovens could "incinerate four corpses was fifteen minutes", or that it's "possible to incinerate one thousand nine hundred and twenty corpses in twenty-four hours." Last time I checked museum says 1000 corpses in 24 hours and Pressac says 300 corpses a day. Oh! It also doesn't end there! They also got Auschwitzs cremation cap wrong as well Mary, they even had access to that document I posted for my estimate as well.

OK, so you're saying that Soviets and the Poles made erroneous assumptions and faulty methodologies to arrive at wildly inflated death tolls that were well out of reality?


No, just their calculations are exaggerated. Now get back to the actual subject and answer Jeffk's question or stop wasting people's time.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:23 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Not being able to answer me doesn't mean I'm off topic.


Jeff's still waiting for you to answer his question, which you still haven't done. You literally just said some things, presented no evidence, then said it happened cause it happened.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:I don't have any proof of Soviet/Polish forensic methods. I don't know what they are. I just assumed that their scientists are as honest and competent as our scientists so there's no reason to reject their findings.


Thanks for finally admitting you don't have proof, so you can stop lying now.

Their estimates were based on a combination of cremation rate, shoes, clothing, ect. They treated the camp's (Auschwitz and Majdanek) well out of reality. That is unless you really believe that Majdaneks ovens could "incinerate four corpses was fifteen minutes", or that it's "possible to incinerate one thousand nine hundred and twenty corpses in twenty-four hours." Last time I checked museum says 1000 corpses in 24 hours and Pressac says 300 corpses a day. Oh! It also doesn't end there! They also got Auschwitzs cremation cap wrong as well Mary, they even had access to that document I posted for my estimate as well.

OK, so you're saying that Soviets and the Poles made erroneous assumptions and faulty methodologies to arrive at wildly inflated death tolls that were well out of reality?


No, just their calculations are exaggerated. Now get back to the actual subject and answer Jeffk's question or stop wasting people's time.

OK, so we can all agree that the Soviets and the Poles made wildly exaggerated claims about the death toll a certain camps. We know the Poles made the claim that steam was used as a method of execution. We know the Soviets presented fabricated forensic evidence to prove that the Germans were responsible for Katyn. We know the Americans submitted false evidence of the operation of the Dachau gas chamber. We know the Americans introduced fabricated evidence of shrunken heads at Nuremberg.

Did all these lies, exaggerations, half truths require the cooperation of thousands of eyewitnesses conspiring to fabricate these untruths? Did it require the construction of fabricated physical plant on both sides of the iron curtain to support the lies that were being told? Did the Soviets and the British and the Americans and the French need to get together, decide on a fake narrative and then print out thousands of fake documents that they inserted into the archives in just the right place on both sides of the iron curtain in support of this fake narrative?

The answer is no, they didn't. It took a few people willing to lie about their enemies and a whole bunch of people willing to believe those lies. That is all. And now you know how such a "hoax" is possible.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:32 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:OK, so we can all agree that the Soviets and the Poles made wildly exaggerated claims about the death toll a certain camps. We know the Poles made the claim that steam was used as a method of execution. We know the Soviets presented fabricated forensic evidence to prove that the Germans were responsible for Katyn. We know the Americans submitted false evidence of the operation of the Dachau gas chamber. We know the Americans introduced fabricated evidence of shrunken heads at Nuremberg.

Is it voices in your head or is Monstrous rubbing off on you?
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:42 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:We know the Poles made the claim that steam was used as a method of execution.

And so what?

We also know where the misconception originated (Rabinowicz, Krzepicki, the revisionist steam myth) and that the IMT found that Treblinka had gas chambers.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:We know the Americans submitted false evidence of the operation of the Dachau gas chamber. We know the Americans introduced fabricated evidence of shrunken heads at Nuremberg.

We do? Besides, what does this have to do with the Final Solution, the topic of the OP?

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Did all these lies, exaggerations, half truths require the cooperation of thousands of eyewitnesses conspiring to fabricate these untruths?

We have over and over discussed how that which is a misconception, and related to the Holocaust, e.g., "steam chambers," is sorted out and corrected in part precisely by dozens of eyewitnesses. What is your point, besides trying to miss the point?

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Did it require the construction of fabricated physical plant on both sides of the iron curtain to support the lies that were being told?

What is it that, related to the Holocaust, people in this forum in 2016 argue that is bolstered by "fabricated" physical plant or "lies, exaggerations, half truths"? You seem to have lost the thread of whatever it is you're trying to argue.

Perhaps you might stick with Treblinka and "steam" and show us how we here argue in favor of or support a hoax bolstered by, say, the Polish government submission to the IMT you refer to. Because I don't get it. Not at all. And I don't even think you get it.

Again, No one here relies on this single document for an explanation of what happened at Treblinka.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:It took a few people willing to lie about their enemies and a whole bunch of people willing to believe those lies. That is all. And now you know how such a "hoax" is possible.

Whoever assumed all claims and interpretations of evidence are correct? Whoever believed the few lies you think that a whole historiography is built on? Which of these lies (or misconceptions) figure in recent and current explanations for what happened to European Jews during WWII? Which do we uncritically repeat? And, please, don't vomit up steam, shrunken heads, or whatever.

This version of the hoax, in fact, is impossible because 1000s of historians and other scholars have worked with all the evidence to root out bad claims, misconceptions, lies when they are told, etc. And to find the best explanations for all that evidence.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Denying-History » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:46 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Not being able to answer me doesn't mean I'm off topic.


Jeff's still waiting for you to answer his question, which you still haven't done. You literally just said some things, presented no evidence, then said it happened cause it happened.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:I don't have any proof of Soviet/Polish forensic methods. I don't know what they are. I just assumed that their scientists are as honest and competent as our scientists so there's no reason to reject their findings.


Thanks for finally admitting you don't have proof, so you can stop lying now.

Their estimates were based on a combination of cremation rate, shoes, clothing, ect. They treated the camp's (Auschwitz and Majdanek) well out of reality. That is unless you really believe that Majdaneks ovens could "incinerate four corpses was fifteen minutes", or that it's "possible to incinerate one thousand nine hundred and twenty corpses in twenty-four hours." Last time I checked museum says 1000 corpses in 24 hours and Pressac says 300 corpses a day. Oh! It also doesn't end there! They also got Auschwitzs cremation cap wrong as well Mary, they even had access to that document I posted for my estimate as well.

OK, so you're saying that Soviets and the Poles made erroneous assumptions and faulty methodologies to arrive at wildly inflated death tolls that were well out of reality?


No, just their calculations are exaggerated. Now get back to the actual subject and answer Jeffk's question or stop wasting people's time.

OK, so we can all agree that the Soviets and the Poles made wildly exaggerated claims about the death toll a certain camps. We know the Poles made the claim that steam was used as a method of execution. We know the Soviets presented fabricated forensic evidence to prove that the Germans were responsible for Katyn. We know the Americans submitted false evidence of the operation of the Dachau gas chamber. We know the Americans introduced fabricated evidence of shrunken heads at Nuremberg.

Did all these lies, exaggerations, half truths require the cooperation of thousands of eyewitnesses conspiring to fabricate these untruths? Did it require the construction of fabricated physical plant on both sides of the iron curtain to support the lies that were being told? Did the Soviets and the British and the Americans and the French need to get together, decide on a fake narrative and then print out thousands of fake documents that they inserted into the archives in just the right place on both sides of the iron curtain in support of this fake narrative?

The answer is no, they didn't. It took a few people willing to lie about their enemies and a whole bunch of people willing to believe those lies. That is all. And now you know how such a "hoax" is possible.


The items in bold are true, the items in normal text are complete BS.

1) Dachau's gas chambers operation was unknown to the Americans... That does not mean they created false evidence. The reports were wrong and Zyklon is the believed gas to have been used. Pressac says it was ether mustard gas or Iéwisite used at Dachau though. Bhala supports this saying that cyanide wasn't used but says it could have been chlorine gas.

2) I have explained it before and I will explain it again. The expert reports by the Americans were educated guesses.

The shrunken heads were most likely models. I do not know the story behind them.

No one here has claimed that these things happened. Mind again that the American didnt fabricate a gas chamber in Dachau... As well Katyn proves the Soviet's were horseshit when it came to fabrications. The polish report was based on testimony alone and the report was written without any investigation of Treblinka. So how about you stop making idiotic claims without proof.

So far you have yet to even prove a false narrative at all.

Again answer jeffs question and stop waiting people's time!
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Denying-History » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:50 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:OK, so we can all agree that the Soviets and the Poles made wildly exaggerated claims about the death toll a certain camps. We know the Poles made the claim that steam was used as a method of execution. We know the Soviets presented fabricated forensic evidence to prove that the Germans were responsible for Katyn. We know the Americans submitted false evidence of the operation of the Dachau gas chamber. We know the Americans introduced fabricated evidence of shrunken heads at Nuremberg.

Is it voices in your head or is Monstrous rubbing off on you?


It's most likely Jim.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:58 pm

She's not even making a little sense. As evidence of a sustained and robust Holocaust "hoax" she cites a long since explained misconception (steam chambers at TII), a thoroughly refuted false claim (Katyn), some nebulous cases not related to the mass murder of Jews, and unspecified lies told by a few people - against the mass of evidence and sources that support contemporary narratives of the Holocaust and Final Solution.

Sad even for Mary.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby NathanC » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:07 am

We know that Katyn was a Soviet crime because evidence outside of Soviet control confirms that it was a Soviet crime. The Western Allies knew the same thing, which was why none of the defendants were convicted for the Katyn Massacre, and why it doesn't appear in the IMT's final judgement.

Katyn is an excellent example of an actual Hoax, and moreover, it is also proof that the Holocaust wasn't a "hoax". The narrative the Soviets wanted to sell for Katyn was that the Germans did it, which was why they doctored the evidence to make it look like the Germans did it. However, what Mary and Monstrous frequently do not understand or acknowledge is that the narrative the Soviets wanted omitted the fact that the Nazis killed Jews for being Jews, and instead presented such killings as Capitalist Fascists killing communists. One only needs to see how the Soviet higher ups went after the Jewish Anti Fascist committee, who tried to publish a book refuting the Soviet narrative. Thus, the evidence for the Holocaust captured by the Soviets - The Jager report, for example - are extremely reliable and have zero percent chance of being doctored or manufactured: because such evidence contradicts the narrative the Soviets wanted to sell - it explicitly talks about Jews killed for being Jews.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Denying-History » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:08 am

Mary keeps pushing the idea that the Americans fabricated evidence of gassings at Dachau... Even though shortly after Nuremberg they concluded that the gas chamber was most likely never used. This is back when they believed its intent was for mass murder.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:11 am

NathanC wrote:We know that Katyn was a Soviet crime because evidence outside of Soviet control confirms that it was a Soviet crime.

This hits the heart of Mary's goof here.

And similarly for misconceptions, errors, bad claims, etc we use other evidence to deal with these.

Among Mary's fundamental flaws is that she doesn't know how to study history and how it is studied. She is an illiterate in that sense. And kind of funny on that account.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:14 am

Denying-History wrote:Mary keeps pushing the idea that the Americans fabricated evidence of gassings at Dachau... Even though shortly after Nuremberg they concluded that the gas chamber was most likely never used. This is back when they believed its intent was for mass murder.

and at the IMT AFAIK the gas chamber at Dachau wasn't used to prove the Final Solution . . . so wtf is she going on about? throwing {!#%@} at a wall and hoping some of it sticks?
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:18 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Mary keeps pushing the idea that the Americans fabricated evidence of gassings at Dachau... Even though shortly after Nuremberg they concluded that the gas chamber was most likely never used. This is back when they believed its intent was for mass murder.

and at the IMT AFAIK the gas chamber at Dachau wasn't used to prove the Final Solution . . . so wtf is she going on about? throwing {!#%@} at a wall and hoping some of it sticks?


I have long ago put Mary on ignore. She brings nothing to the table and pretty much just whinges. Much like Ian, except Ian has it out for me personally and challenges the credibility of this forum, and must be responded to. Mary is weak, vague, elementary..... nothing to see here folks, move along.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:20 am

And I think this post by Nick in response to Mary is due a rereading:

nickterry wrote:History students are taught not to project present-day concerns back onto the past, to guard against the possibility that they might be imposing preconceptions on the source material. That is exactly what you are doing, not least by ignoring the rest of the evidence regarding 'everything else'...
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27177&start=200#p532207
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Denying-History » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:22 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Mary keeps pushing the idea that the Americans fabricated evidence of gassings at Dachau... Even though shortly after Nuremberg they concluded that the gas chamber was most likely never used. This is back when they believed its intent was for mass murder.

and at the IMT AFAIK the gas chamber at Dachau wasn't used to prove the Final Solution . . . so wtf is she going on about? throwing {!#%@} at a wall and hoping some of it sticks?


From what I understand she's trying to play something like "if they lied about Dachau then they lied about the whole thing." That's why Mary isn't disputing the gas chamber at Dachau, or maybe she read Black Rabbits dachau thread at Rodoh.

A simple way to put is that if they were wrong about Dachau they could have been wrong about Auschuwitz.

Another portion of it is that she is also trying to argue that dachaus gas chamber is still standing and the gas chamber at Auschwtiz is not, where this argument goes, I don't know...
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:27 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:OK, so we can all agree that the Soviets and the Poles made wildly exaggerated claims about the death toll a certain camps.


Sure. But exaggerated does not mean it didn't happen. They made mistakes and didn't want to correct them. Researchers like Reitlinger and Hilberg disputed those numbers. Not deniers, Mary. People interested in finding out the truth. Hoess himself disputed those numbers in his memoirs.....memoirs he wrote in a Polish prison.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:We know the Poles made the claim that steam was used as a method of execution.


Sure. Again, an understandable mistake given the information they had at the time. But quickly corrected once better witnesses were found that could actually say how the victims were murdered.
But, in a way irrelevant considering what the Poles found in the course of investigating those sites. I'll remind you that the Poles found ash, partial remains, skeletal remains and the remnants of mass graves. So, spare me the steam BS.
Besides, the IMT got the method of killing right for Chelmno, the "murder vans" that are actually extremely well documented.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:We know the Soviets presented fabricated forensic evidence to prove that the Germans were responsible for Katyn.


Spare me. No German was prosecuted at the IMT for Katyn. The Soviets did such a crappy job of fabricating evidence no one took them seriously.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:We know the Americans submitted false evidence of the operation of the Dachau gas chamber. We know the Americans introduced fabricated evidence of shrunken heads at Nuremberg.


Did your medication just suddenly wear off? Already discussed, don't bother.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Did all these lies, exaggerations, half truths require the cooperation of thousands of eyewitnesses conspiring to fabricate these untruths? Did it require the construction of fabricated physical plant on both sides of the iron curtain to support the lies that were being told? Did the Soviets and the British and the Americans and the French need to get together, decide on a fake narrative and then print out thousands of fake documents that they inserted into the archives in just the right place on both sides of the iron curtain in support of this fake narrative?


Yes, because it needed the agreement of all parties to continue this hoax in order for it to work. Deniers only focus on the IMT, there were multiple trials afterwards. Why would the British and US propagate a Communist hoax by continuing to put Germans on trial? Why would West Germany? For that matter, why would unified Germany do this?
How do you explain the documents that support the Holocaust? They have to be faked, right? What about the witnesses? Were they all coerced or tortured? Why wouldn't the various SS men on trial, Eichman above all, not announce to the world the reality of this hoax? Eichman in the Sassen Interviews admitted that the mass murder of Jews occurred BEFORE the Isrealis kidnapped him. Did Sassen torture him to say this?
Did all the BS turn your blue eyes brown?

Mary Q Contrary wrote:The answer is no, they didn't. It took a few people willing to lie about their enemies and a whole bunch of people willing to believe those lies. That is all. And now you know how such a "hoax" is possible.


Sorry, the big finish failed, Mary. You still haven't explained where all those Jews went. You've produced no actual proof, just guesses and speculation that have no backing. "A few people?" It would have fallen apart, Mary. You still have to account for the missing Jews, what the Poles found at the sites, the blue prints, the documents supporting the Holocaust, the pictures, the mass graves.

Try harder or admit you failed.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:06 am

Denying-History wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Mary keeps pushing the idea that the Americans fabricated evidence of gassings at Dachau... Even though shortly after Nuremberg they concluded that the gas chamber was most likely never used. This is back when they believed its intent was for mass murder.

and at the IMT AFAIK the gas chamber at Dachau wasn't used to prove the Final Solution . . . so wtf is she going on about? throwing {!#%@} at a wall and hoping some of it sticks?


From what I understand she's trying to play something like "if they lied about Dachau then they lied about the whole thing."

Of course. And Katyn. But then she has to show that they did. They got caught on Katyn, so it's a dead end. But my larger point is that what she is dwelling on isn't how we understand history. We don't deny any events in history simply because some early reports on them got things wrong in part. Rather, we use all the evidence available to us today and we have to create the best explanation for it. Mary is clueless about this.

Denying-History wrote:A simple way to put is that if they were wrong about Dachau they could have been wrong about Auschuwitz.

And it isn't their work that is the basis for what we today understand.

Denying-History wrote:Another portion of it is that she is also trying to argue that dachaus gas chamber is still standing and the gas chamber at Auschwtiz is not, where this argument goes, I don't know...

Nowhere.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:11 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Besides, the IMT got the method of killing right for Chelmno, the "murder vans" that are actually extremely well documented.

Don't let Mary off the hook on Treblinka either: whatever the Polish government submitted, the IMT found that Treblinka was one of camps using gas chambers to exterminate Jews.

Jeffk 1970 wrote:How do you explain the documents that support the Holocaust? < etc >

Exactly.

And Mary has been explicitly asked, when she says that she just disagrees with some points, what she agrees with. Mum is the word. She's a coward. Afraid, like Monstrous, to commit herself.

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Sorry, the big finish failed, Mary. You still haven't explained where all those Jews went. You've produced no actual proof, just guesses and speculation that have no backing. "A few people?"

Which she's not connected to the historiography of the Holocaust - or even identified. LOL
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Denying-History » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:24 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Mary keeps pushing the idea that the Americans fabricated evidence of gassings at Dachau... Even though shortly after Nuremberg they concluded that the gas chamber was most likely never used. This is back when they believed its intent was for mass murder.

and at the IMT AFAIK the gas chamber at Dachau wasn't used to prove the Final Solution . . . so wtf is she going on about? throwing {!#%@} at a wall and hoping some of it sticks?


From what I understand she's trying to play something like "if they lied about Dachau then they lied about the whole thing."

Of course. And Katyn. But then she has to show that they did. They got caught on Katyn, so it's a dead end. But my larger point is that what she is dwelling on isn't how we understand history. We don't deny any events in history simply because some early reports on them got things wrong in part. Rather, we use all the evidence available to us today and we have to create the best explanation for it. Mary is clueless about this.


Yep, that is what lead to the Museums modern conclusions. Mary doesn't understand this and it has led to major issues in her logic just as you have mentioned. As well if the Museum has it wrong then Pressac has it right. No matter what no showerroom existed in barrack x.

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:A simple way to put is that if they were wrong about Dachau they could have been wrong about Auschuwitz.

And it isn't their work that is the basis for what we today understand.


Exactly.

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Another portion of it is that she is also trying to argue that dachaus gas chamber is still standing and the gas chamber at Auschwtiz is not, where this argument goes, I don't know...

Nowhere.


Exactly, that's the point! It has a deeper meaning! Its exactly where her argument is going! :D
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:48 am

To help Monstrous and Mary, who are floundering here, there have been charges that the Mogilev gassing footage is a fabrication. Discussion in this series of blog articles by Sergey Romanov and Hans. The footage is dealt with in terms of evidence not limited to the issue of provenance.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:05 pm

I feel a need to share this: I'm reading a book on Mauthausen, which is surely among the Nazis' worst crimes. The account is truly hideous reading. The author is highly critical of witnesses and post-war writers who've stayed away from addressing the paradoxical nature of the KLs, thus he includes a good deal of coverage of that which our revs believe they've discovered: football, the camp brothel ("Puff") in Block 1, the 2 orchestras and 1 "gypsy" band, the so-called canteen, the revier and other hospital facilities, and of course the library. The author takes pains to situate these "entertainments" in context and to be make sure that they're not taken as some kind of ray of sunshine in the oppressive Lager.

He needn't have worried. None of this relieves the horror of the camp. Nothing was able to do so until I encountered one prisoner who worked in the SS garden overlooking the "football field": the man's name, according to the author, was Tomás Tomás Tomás, and we read how the SS grilled him for messing with them on giving his name ("Are you trying to joke with me?"). Maybe I should become Lemmy Lemmy Lemmy? Anyway, the gardener Tomás Tomás Tomás gave me the first real break in the unrelenting misery, drudgery, and cruelty that I have been reading of Mauthausen . . .

I could not help thinking of Monty Python before returning to the horror-show world the SS made . . .
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:34 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I feel a need to share this: I'm reading a book on Mauthausen, which is surely among the Nazis' worst crimes. The account is truly hideous reading. The author is highly critical of witnesses and post-war writers who've stayed away from addressing the paradoxical nature of the KLs, thus he includes a good deal of coverage of that which our revs believe they've discovered: football, the camp brothel ("Puff") in Block 1, the 2 orchestras and 1 "gypsy" band, the so-called canteen, the revier and other hospital facilities, and of course the library. The author takes pains to situate these "entertainments" in context and to be make sure that they're not taken as some kind of ray of sunshine in the oppressive Lager.

He needn't have worried. None of this relieves the horror of the camp. Nothing was able to do so until I encountered one prisoner who worked in the SS garden overlooking the "football field": the man's name, according to the author, was Tomás Tomás Tomás, and we read how the SS grilled him for messing with them on giving his name ("Are you trying to joke with me?"). Maybe I should become Lemmy Lemmy Lemmy? Anyway, the gardener Tomás Tomás Tomás gave me the first real break in the unrelenting misery, drudgery, and cruelty that I have been reading of Mauthausen . . .

I could not help thinking of Monty Python before returning to the horror-show world the SS made . . .



What's the name of the book?

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:10 pm

Spaniards in the Holocaust: Mauthausen, the horror on the Danube, by David Wingeate Pike (the title is misleading, the book is not about the Holocaust but about KL Mauthausen as documented by and seen through the eyes of its large contingent of Spanish prisoners)
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:46 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I feel a need to share this: I'm reading a book on Mauthausen, which is surely among the Nazis' worst crimes. The account is truly hideous reading. The author is highly critical of witnesses and post-war writers who've stayed away from addressing the paradoxical nature of the KLs, thus he includes a good deal of coverage of that which our revs believe they've discovered: football, the camp brothel ("Puff") in Block 1, the 2 orchestras and 1 "gypsy" band, the so-called canteen, the revier and other hospital facilities, and of course the library. The author takes pains to situate these "entertainments" in context and to be make sure that they're not taken as some kind of ray of sunshine in the oppressive Lager.

He needn't have worried. None of this relieves the horror of the camp. Nothing was able to do so until I encountered one prisoner who worked in the SS garden overlooking the "football field": the man's name, according to the author, was Tomás Tomás Tomás, and we read how the SS grilled him for messing with them on giving his name ("Are you trying to joke with me?"). Maybe I should become Lemmy Lemmy Lemmy? Anyway, the gardener Tomás Tomás Tomás gave me the first real break in the unrelenting misery, drudgery, and cruelty that I have been reading of Mauthausen . . .

I could not help thinking of Monty Python before returning to the horror-show world the SS made . . .


I recall that the quarry at Mauthausen was a dreadful place with a better then even mortality rate. There were, as you mentioned, a large contingent of Spanish Republican prisoners and most of them IIRC did not survive.

A Soviet General, Dmitry Karbyshev was tortured and killed at KL Mauthausen. The guards sprayed him and 100 others with cold water and left them to freeze to death in sub zero temperatures in February of 1945.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:05 am

Jeff_36 wrote:I recall that the quarry at Mauthausen was a dreadful place with a better then even mortality rate.

The infamous 186 steps which prisoners had to ascend on the quick each evening carrying stones of 20kg.

Jeff_36 wrote:There were, as you mentioned, a large contingent of Spanish Republican prisoners and most of them IIRC did not survive.

7186 Spanish prisoners, 4765 perished, 238 transferred to other camps or released, 2183 liberated (per Climent's figures)

Jeff_36 wrote:A Soviet General, Dmitry Karbyshev was tortured and killed at KL Mauthausen. The guards sprayed him and 100 others with cold water and left them to freeze to death in sub zero temperatures in February of 1945.

A common method of abuse and murder, refined to a T at the Gusen subcamp in the notorious Badeaktion.

Four methods of gassing btw.

More in another thread.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby NathanC » Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:25 am

More on the Hoax that never happened.

In his testimony at Jerusalem, Eichmann openly lied at least two times in court and to his interrogators. He identified Alois Brunner as "Anton Brunner", and identified one of his conversation partners (along with Sassen) as, "Dr. Lange". Both of these were with the intent to protect these people and throw investigators off of their scent. While we can and should doubt some details of Eichmann's statements, especially regarding his own culpability, these open deceptions with the intent of protecting his Nazi buddies make it absolutely clear that he gave his statements of his own volition, and that the "coercion" or "blackmail" fantasies of deniers are just that. He talked about the final solution of his own volition, because it happened, and not because it was "fed" to him.

Also, the German intelligence service sabotaged two attempts by Israel to capture Eichmann in the late 40s. The US themselves demanded the release of the informant who tipped the Germans of the plan and allowed Eichmann to evade arrest. There was no worldwide conspiracy to fake the Holocaust, and "the Jews" didn't control the USA, making the evidence manufacturing deniers allege impossible.

The "hoax" never happened.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:09 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Not being able to answer me doesn't mean I'm off topic.


Jeff's still waiting for you to answer his question, which you still haven't done. You literally just said some things, presented no evidence, then said it happened cause it happened.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:I don't have any proof of Soviet/Polish forensic methods. I don't know what they are. I just assumed that their scientists are as honest and competent as our scientists so there's no reason to reject their findings.


Thanks for finally admitting you don't have proof, so you can stop lying now.

Their estimates were based on a combination of cremation rate, shoes, clothing, ect. They treated the camp's (Auschwitz and Majdanek) well out of reality. That is unless you really believe that Majdaneks ovens could "incinerate four corpses was fifteen minutes", or that it's "possible to incinerate one thousand nine hundred and twenty corpses in twenty-four hours." Last time I checked museum says 1000 corpses in 24 hours and Pressac says 300 corpses a day. Oh! It also doesn't end there! They also got Auschwitzs cremation cap wrong as well Mary, they even had access to that document I posted for my estimate as well.

OK, so you're saying that Soviets and the Poles made erroneous assumptions and faulty methodologies to arrive at wildly inflated death tolls that were well out of reality?


No, just their calculations are exaggerated. Now get back to the actual subject and answer Jeffk's question or stop wasting people's time.

OK, so we can all agree that the Soviets and the Poles made wildly exaggerated claims about the death toll a certain camps. We know the Poles made the claim that steam was used as a method of execution. We know the Soviets presented fabricated forensic evidence to prove that the Germans were responsible for Katyn. We know the Americans submitted false evidence of the operation of the Dachau gas chamber. We know the Americans introduced fabricated evidence of shrunken heads at Nuremberg.

Did all these lies, exaggerations, half truths require the cooperation of thousands of eyewitnesses conspiring to fabricate these untruths? Did it require the construction of fabricated physical plant on both sides of the iron curtain to support the lies that were being told? Did the Soviets and the British and the Americans and the French need to get together, decide on a fake narrative and then print out thousands of fake documents that they inserted into the archives in just the right place on both sides of the iron curtain in support of this fake narrative?

The answer is no, they didn't. It took a few people willing to lie about their enemies and a whole bunch of people willing to believe those lies. That is all. And now you know how such a "hoax" is possible.


Mary? Still there? Anything else to say?

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:38 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Mary keeps pushing the idea that the Americans fabricated evidence of gassings at Dachau... Even though shortly after Nuremberg they concluded that the gas chamber was most likely never used. This is back when they believed its intent was for mass murder.

and at the IMT AFAIK the gas chamber at Dachau wasn't used to prove the Final Solution . . . so wtf is she going on about? throwing {!#%@} at a wall and hoping some of it sticks?

Which piece(s) of evidence was(were) used to prove the Final Solution at the IMT? You're answer isn't really pertinent to the question of how such a hoax could arise. I'm just curious.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:00 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:OK, so we can all agree that the Soviets and the Poles made wildly exaggerated claims about the death toll a certain camps.


Sure. But exaggerated does not mean it didn't happen. They made mistakes and didn't want to correct them. Researchers like Reitlinger and Hilberg disputed those numbers. Not deniers, Mary. People interested in finding out the truth. Hoess himself disputed those numbers in his memoirs.....memoirs he wrote in a Polish prison.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:We know the Poles made the claim that steam was used as a method of execution.


Sure. Again, an understandable mistake given the information they had at the time. But quickly corrected once better witnesses were found that could actually say how the victims were murdered.
But, in a way irrelevant considering what the Poles found in the course of investigating those sites. I'll remind you that the Poles found ash, partial remains, skeletal remains and the remnants of mass graves. So, spare me the steam BS.
Besides, the IMT got the method of killing right for Chelmno, the "murder vans" that are actually extremely well documented.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:We know the Soviets presented fabricated forensic evidence to prove that the Germans were responsible for Katyn.


Spare me. No German was prosecuted at the IMT for Katyn. The Soviets did such a crappy job of fabricating evidence no one took them seriously.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:We know the Americans submitted false evidence of the operation of the Dachau gas chamber. We know the Americans introduced fabricated evidence of shrunken heads at Nuremberg.


Did your medication just suddenly wear off? Already discussed, don't bother.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Did all these lies, exaggerations, half truths require the cooperation of thousands of eyewitnesses conspiring to fabricate these untruths? Did it require the construction of fabricated physical plant on both sides of the iron curtain to support the lies that were being told? Did the Soviets and the British and the Americans and the French need to get together, decide on a fake narrative and then print out thousands of fake documents that they inserted into the archives in just the right place on both sides of the iron curtain in support of this fake narrative?


Yes, because it needed the agreement of all parties to continue this hoax in order for it to work. Deniers only focus on the IMT, there were multiple trials afterwards. Why would the British and US propagate a Communist hoax by continuing to put Germans on trial? Why would West Germany? For that matter, why would unified Germany do this?
How do you explain the documents that support the Holocaust? They have to be faked, right? What about the witnesses? Were they all coerced or tortured? Why wouldn't the various SS men on trial, Eichman above all, not announce to the world the reality of this hoax? Eichman in the Sassen Interviews admitted that the mass murder of Jews occurred BEFORE the Isrealis kidnapped him. Did Sassen torture him to say this?
Did all the BS turn your blue eyes brown?

Mary Q Contrary wrote:The answer is no, they didn't. It took a few people willing to lie about their enemies and a whole bunch of people willing to believe those lies. That is all. And now you know how such a "hoax" is possible.


Sorry, the big finish failed, Mary. You still haven't explained where all those Jews went. You've produced no actual proof, just guesses and speculation that have no backing. "A few people?" It would have fallen apart, Mary. You still have to account for the missing Jews, what the Poles found at the sites, the blue prints, the documents supporting the Holocaust, the pictures, the mass graves.

Try harder or admit you failed.

You still haven't explained where three million Auschwitz and 1.4 million Madjanek victims went. This is only peripherally related to the OP but your answer may provide some additioinal insight into how error can creep into the historical record.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Mary keeps pushing the idea that the Americans fabricated evidence of gassings at Dachau... Even though shortly after Nuremberg they concluded that the gas chamber was most likely never used. This is back when they believed its intent was for mass murder.

and at the IMT AFAIK the gas chamber at Dachau wasn't used to prove the Final Solution . . . so wtf is she going on about? throwing {!#%@} at a wall and hoping some of it sticks?

Which piece(s) of evidence was(were) used to prove the Final Solution at the IMT? You're answer isn't really pertinent to the question of how such a hoax could arise. I'm just curious.

Open a thread on the IMT if you'd like. You're trying to derail Jeffk's thread. As you know, in this thread and elsewhere, Nick Terry and I have already mentioned some of that evidence to you. But let's keep this thread for Jeffk's OP.

So, for that purpose - and thinking about your comments on the Dachau gas chamber, shrunken heads, steam chambers, Eisenhower, soap and whatnot - could you please explain how anything you've posted so far, including the centrality you accord to "a few people willing to lie," explains the evidence we have about Chełmno in the Warthegau?

Three items to assist you:

First, a recent article from the Holocaust Controversies blog, written by Nick Terry: "“The Jews buried in a little wood near Kulmhof”: Documenting Cremation at Chełmno"

Comment: This paragraph from Nick Terry's article is of critical importance to what Monstrous and you try doing here, with your non-answer: "Like so many other feeble explanations advanced by 'the world’s premier revisionist', Mattogno’s attempt to explain away the presence of a ball-mill at Chełmno by hypothesising that it was 'used to grind down nonflammable materials' (The Extermination Camps of Aktion Reinhard, p.1346) falls foul of the fallacy of possible proof. Just because something might have been the case doesn’t prove it in the slightest, nor does speculation trump eyewitness testimony. The use of the ball mill bought 'for the SS-Sonderkommando Kulmhof' to grind bones from the mass cremations of Jewish victims is attested to by multiple eyewitness sources. The use of the ball mill to crush waste materials is attested to by nobody. Ergo, Mattogno’s assertion fails." I urge you and Monstrous to read and re-read this paragraph.

Second, an update of a list of sources about Łódź, the Warthegau, and Chełmno, which is a sampling of what's available and to which the sources in Nick Terry's article should be added:

Some key secondary literature

- Krakowski, Chelmno: A Small Village in Europe: The First Nazi Mass Extermination Camp
- Montague, Chelmno and the Holocaust: The History of Hitler's Death Camp
- Epstein, Model Nazi: Arthur Greiser and the Occupation of Western Poland
- Trunk, Łódź Ghetto: A History
- Horwitz, Ghettostadt: Łódź and the Making of a Nazi City
- Witte, "Two Decisions Concerning the 'Final Solution to the Jewish Question': Deportations to Lodz and Mass Murder in Chelmno," HGS 9:3
- other titles such as Alberti mentioned in the above blog article

German documents and other evidence

- Greiser-Himmler correspondence NO-244, NO-246, NO-249, NO-251
- Höppner-Eichmann correspondence T/219
- Koppe to Brandt NO-247
- Blome to Greiser NO-250
- gold teeth in possession of Rudolf Kramp (Łódź administration official) at time of his arrest
- personnel files Hans Bothmann (Chelmno commander 1944), Herbert Lange (1942)
- Walter Zirpins in article in German periodical Kriminalistik September 1941
- various German proclamations in Łódź ghetto
- reports and correspondence of Łódź ghetto administration on Jewish property; Koppe 28 August 1942 letter on Himmler's order for handling of Jewish furs in "Kulmhof operation" T/175

Jews to Chelmno

- report of Section IIB4 Gestapo, dated 2 September 1942 (Krakowski)
- Łódź ghetto chronicle
- Rumkowski speeches
- announcement of Hans Biebow 12 September 1942
- diaries of ghetto inmates: Oskar Rosenfeld, Dawid Sierakowiak, Josef Zelkowicz, Jakub Poznanski
- Fritz Ismer, German Hauptscharfuhrer - testimony
- Erhard Michelson, German settler to region - testimony
- Warsaw Hashomer Hatzair underground newspaper Jutrznia - quoted at length in Krakowski
- Gordonia youth movement newspaper Slowo Mlodych - quoted in Krakowski
- Podchlebnik testimony - see below
- Szulman postcards - see below
- Warsaw Bund newspaper - Der Weker
- anonymous girl's diary (Łódź ghetto)
- Reichsbahn bill to Lodz Gestapo for transport costs
- Himmler calendar
- testimonies in addition to below - Irena Li(e)bman (quoted at length in Krakowski), Sara Mancha, Ludwig Wegner, Helena Krol, Yitzhak Weizman, Pinkas Ha-Kehillot Łódź collection, Eli Krizons (German clerk in Łódź), memoir of Rabbi Yehoshua Aronson, Helene Klass (German living in Łeczyca), Olga Günther (German living in Warta), Irmgard Weller (German living in Lututów),
- articles in Polish underground press (Barykada Wolnoeci, Polscy Socjalioeci - quoted in Krakowski)
- diary of German occupation official in Poddębice Franz Bock

Eyewitness accounts (partial list)

- Michal Podchlebnik - escapee from Chelmno (Eichmann trial, Bonn trial 1963, "Shoah" interview)
- Szyman Srebnick - escapee from Chelmno (Eichmann trial, Bonn trial 1963, "Shoah" interview)
- Mordecai Zurawski - escapee, testified in Polish trials of Greiser, Gielow, Eichmann trial, Bonn trial 1963)
- Henryk Mania - Polish laborer in the Wetterkommando, 1964, 1967 testimonies -information on use of gas vans by the Germans
- Henryk Maliczak - Polish laborer in the Wetterkommando, 1967 testimony including testimony on use of conversion of vans for gassing
- Yerachmiel Widawski - escapee, testimony recorded by Naphtali Lau-Lavie in 1942 (quoted at length in Montague)
- Rabbi Jacob Szulman - 1942 letters including information from Szlama Winer
- Szlama Winer - escapee, information written down in winter 1942 (quoted in full in Montague), testimony given to Wassers in Warsaw (Oyneg Shabes, also Itzhak Zukerman memoir), see above
- Mieczyslaw Sakiewicz - local veterinarian, postwar testimony quoted at length in Montague
- Heinz May - forestry official, testimony included information on gas vans - quoted at length in Krakowski
- Josef Piaskowski and Bronislaw Falborski - local mechanics who worked on gas van repairs, quoted at length in Montague (other local mechanics also gave testimonies)
- a number of local residents - testimony on operations of vans in the area including a crash involving a van, en route to the forest burial area, filled with prisoners; also local testimonies on encounters with escapees
- Jan Oliskiewicz - testimony about letter describing Chelmno extermination center sent to Swiss consulate in Łódź by community leader Stanislaw Kaszynski

Perpetrator testimonies (partial list)

- Gustav Laabs - gas van driver in 1942 and 1944 phases
- Karl Heinl - police at forest camp and in castle, testimony on gas vans
- Ernst Burmeister - head of police at Chelmno, 1944
- Hans Biebow - head of Łódź administration
- Erwin Schmidt - in charge of provisions for SK Lange
- Wilhelm Koppe - HSSPF Poznan (quoted in Montague)
- Paul Blobel - advised on corpse disposal in forest camp
- Kurt Möbius - supervised incoming Jews at the mansion/castle, interrogation quoted in Krakowski
- Walter Piller - deputy commander of camp, 1944 phase, description of gassing process and vans, quoted at length in Krakowski
- Bruno Israel - guard during 1944 phase
- Rudolf Höss - commandant Auschwitz, head of Amt DI in WVHA, deputy of the inspector of the concentration camps under Glücks - on his visit to Kulmhof (Chelmno)
- Albert Meyer - head of marketable goods department Łódź, interrogation (including disposition of property of "outsettled" Jews)
- Viktor Brack deposition - NO-426
- Henry Wentritt - German workshop foreman, testimony on gas vans quoted in Montague
- Walter Burmeister - commandants' driver, testimony on gas vans

Gas vans general

- Hans's HC series on gas vans
- ”Contemporary German Documents on Homicidal Gas Vans” at HC
- Einsatzgruppen report of 1 March 1942 on "gas wagons"
- Letter from Walther Rauff to the Criminal Technical Institute at the Reich Criminal Police Office of 26 March 1942 on "special wagons" and "gas bottles with carbon monoxide" for concentration camp Mauthausen.
- Letter from Harald Turner to Karl Wolff of 11 April 1942 on "I shot dead all the Jews I could get my hands on in this area, concentrated all the Jewish women and children in a camp and with the help of the SD got my hands on a "delousing van," that in about 14 days to 4 weeks will have brought about the definitive clearing out of the camp".
- Memo of 27 April 1942 on a "fast unloading device for the special vehicles"
- Letter from Walther Rauff to the Gaubschat company of 30 April 1942 on "extractable grates for the 10 delivered Saurer chassis"
- Letter from the Gaubschat company to Walther Rauff of 14 May 1942 on "10 yet to be delivered special vehicles"
- Letter from August Becker to Walther Rauff of 16 May 1942 on "death van" and "the persons to be executed suffer death from suffocation and not death by dozing off as was planned"
- THHP discussion of memo from Willy Just for Walther Rauff of 5 June 1942 on "ninety-seven thousand have been processed using three vans", "to facilitate the rapid distribution of CO" and "when the back door is closed and it gets dark inside, the load pushes hard against the door"
- Telegram from Emanuel Schäfer to Friedrich Pradel of 9 June 1942 on "the special order" with "a special wagon Saurer"
- Telegram from Heinz Truehe to the RSHA of 15 June 1942 on "special treatment" of Jews with "S-wagons" and "20 exhaust hoses for the existing 3 S-wagons (2 Diamond, 1 Saurer), as those available are already leaky".
- Telegram from the RSHA to the commander of Security Police and Security Service Ostland of 22 June 1942 on "S wagon...transfer of a 5 t Saurer...100 m hose will be sent along"
- Memo of 23 June 1942 on "30 special coachworks for the delivered chassis...changes which cannot be considered there for reasons of secrecy are to be made in an in-house workshop"
- Letter from the Gaubschat company to the RSHA of 18 September 1942 on "Coachwork f. delivered 10 Saurer Chassis"

Chelmno mass graves

- Roberto Muehlenkamp series on mass graves at HC
- Roberto Muehlenkamp series on forensics in SSF HD subforum
- archeological work discussed here and here, including study of artifacts discovered

Third, background on the topic from "At last! The long-awaited Lodz thread" at Rodoh:

- part 1
- part 2
- part 3
- part 4

Tell us, now, please, how do the points you've made (mentioned above - Dachau, steam, skulls, etc) explain the sources for mass murder of Jews at Chełmno?
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:29 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:OK, so we can all agree that the Soviets and the Poles made wildly exaggerated claims about the death toll a certain camps.


Sure. But exaggerated does not mean it didn't happen. They made mistakes and didn't want to correct them. Researchers like Reitlinger and Hilberg disputed those numbers. Not deniers, Mary. People interested in finding out the truth. Hoess himself disputed those numbers in his memoirs.....memoirs he wrote in a Polish prison.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:We know the Poles made the claim that steam was used as a method of execution.


Sure. Again, an understandable mistake given the information they had at the time. But quickly corrected once better witnesses were found that could actually say how the victims were murdered.
But, in a way irrelevant considering what the Poles found in the course of investigating those sites. I'll remind you that the Poles found ash, partial remains, skeletal remains and the remnants of mass graves. So, spare me the steam BS.
Besides, the IMT got the method of killing right for Chelmno, the "murder vans" that are actually extremely well documented.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:We know the Soviets presented fabricated forensic evidence to prove that the Germans were responsible for Katyn.


Spare me. No German was prosecuted at the IMT for Katyn. The Soviets did such a crappy job of fabricating evidence no one took them seriously.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:We know the Americans submitted false evidence of the operation of the Dachau gas chamber. We know the Americans introduced fabricated evidence of shrunken heads at Nuremberg.


Did your medication just suddenly wear off? Already discussed, don't bother.

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Did all these lies, exaggerations, half truths require the cooperation of thousands of eyewitnesses conspiring to fabricate these untruths? Did it require the construction of fabricated physical plant on both sides of the iron curtain to support the lies that were being told? Did the Soviets and the British and the Americans and the French need to get together, decide on a fake narrative and then print out thousands of fake documents that they inserted into the archives in just the right place on both sides of the iron curtain in support of this fake narrative?


Yes, because it needed the agreement of all parties to continue this hoax in order for it to work. Deniers only focus on the IMT, there were multiple trials afterwards. Why would the British and US propagate a Communist hoax by continuing to put Germans on trial? Why would West Germany? For that matter, why would unified Germany do this?
How do you explain the documents that support the Holocaust? They have to be faked, right? What about the witnesses? Were they all coerced or tortured? Why wouldn't the various SS men on trial, Eichman above all, not announce to the world the reality of this hoax? Eichman in the Sassen Interviews admitted that the mass murder of Jews occurred BEFORE the Isrealis kidnapped him. Did Sassen torture him to say this?
Did all the BS turn your blue eyes brown?

Mary Q Contrary wrote:The answer is no, they didn't. It took a few people willing to lie about their enemies and a whole bunch of people willing to believe those lies. That is all. And now you know how such a "hoax" is possible.


Sorry, the big finish failed, Mary. You still haven't explained where all those Jews went. You've produced no actual proof, just guesses and speculation that have no backing. "A few people?" It would have fallen apart, Mary. You still have to account for the missing Jews, what the Poles found at the sites, the blue prints, the documents supporting the Holocaust, the pictures, the mass graves.

Try harder or admit you failed.

You still haven't explained where three million Auschwitz and 1.4 million Madjanek victims went. This is only peripherally related to the OP but your answer may provide some additioinal insight into how error can creep into the historical record.


What 3 million victims for Auschwitz and 1.4 million for Majdanek? Mary, the Soviets ESTIMATED those death tolls. I've already told you that, others have as well.
It served the Soviets to keep those totals as high as they did for propaganda purposes.
However, actual research into those death tolls from Reitlinger, Hilberg and others disputed those death tolls. The Auschwitz curator, Piper, in the 80's, did some research using transports in, transports out, recorded camp deaths and came up with a total close to what Hoess gave in his memoirs.....but even then Piper tread very carefully so to not upset the Communist Party.
Your turn. Tell me how the "hoax" hid 5.5 million Jews.

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:36 pm

This might make it simple enough for Mary: Hilberg estimated that 5.1 million Jews perished in the Holocaust. His estimates didn't use the early, erroneous estimates which Maryzilla cites for Auschwitz and Majdanek. The multi-million figures for Auschwitz and Majdanek don't enter into Hilberg's (or other "recent") estimates of the number dead. Hilberg had "up to 1,000,000" for Auschwitz and 50,000 for Majdanek (Lublin).

If Mary would show us where the Soviets and the Polish Soviet Commission tied their Auschwitz and Majdanek estimates to a total Jewish dead figure, her question would make sense. Otherwise, it is a stupid pet trick.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:44 pm

It may be time to remind Mary that this thread is where deniers get to tell us "So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?" It isn't where deniers ask for our help when they fumble around with proclaimed forgeries or where they get to divert with questions to us about the IMT.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Denying-History » Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:35 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:You still haven't explained where three million Auschwitz and 1.4 million Madjanek victims went. This is only peripherally related to the OP but your answer may provide some additioinal insight into how error can creep into the historical record.


I have handled this already Mary, don't make me have to go into detail past a single quote.

Denying-History wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:I don't have any proof of Soviet/Polish forensic methods. I don't know what they are. I just assumed that their scientists are as honest and competent as our scientists so there's no reason to reject their findings.


Thanks for finally admitting you don't have proof, so you can stop lying now.

Their estimates were based on a combination of cremation rate, shoes, clothing, ect. They treated the camp's (Auschwitz and Majdanek) well out of reality. That is unless you really believe that Majdaneks ovens could "incinerate four corpses was fifteen minutes", or that it's "possible to incinerate one thousand nine hundred and twenty corpses in twenty-four hours." Last time I checked museum says 1000 corpses in 24 hours and Pressac says 300 corpses a day. Oh! It also doesn't end there! They also got Auschwitzs cremation cap wrong as well Mary, they even had access to that document I posted for my estimate as well.


The soviets didn't use the documents which clearly state the cremation cap of auschwitz and at Majdanek they exaggerated far more then at auschwitz. The lack of camp records at Majdanek as well shoes being sent from Action Reinhardt building up inside the camp lead to the Soviets to believe that more people died there then really did.

If you want to continue arguing over the first estimates by the soviets then I would direct you to reading Lipstadt's blog. She talks a bit about death toll.

You have continued to push pointless arguments as if they make a case, but they don't. So please stop wasting peoples time.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:39 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:. . . First, a recent article from the Holocaust Controversies blog, written by Nick Terry: "“The Jews buried in a little wood near Kulmhof”: Documenting Cremation at Chełmno" . . .

Leaving aside Mary's inability to account for Chełmno, and everything else, via "intact Dachau gas chamber," I urge folks interested in this material to read Nick Terry's HC discussion of documents pertaining to Chełmno (link in quoted bit above), including a very interesting German document that will be new to you . . .

Nick Terry also wrote a very nice introduction to his blog article here.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:13 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:It may be time to remind Mary that this thread is where deniers get to tell us "So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?" It isn't where deniers ask for our help when they fumble around with proclaimed forgeries or where they get to divert with questions to us about the IMT.

I already explained how the hoax works, in very broad strokes. If you want to delve deeper into the topic, I recommend the Butz book. It gives a good overview. You can download it for free but you would still be required to read it to understand.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:16 am

Denying-History wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:You still haven't explained where three million Auschwitz and 1.4 million Madjanek victims went. This is only peripherally related to the OP but your answer may provide some additioinal insight into how error can creep into the historical record.


I have handled this already Mary, don't make me have to go into detail past a single quote.

You don't need to go into detail. You just need to show us where they went. Easy.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:33 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:It may be time to remind Mary that this thread is where deniers get to tell us "So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?" It isn't where deniers ask for our help when they fumble around with proclaimed forgeries or where they get to divert with questions to us about the IMT.

I already explained how the hoax works, in very broad strokes. If you want to delve deeper into the topic, I recommend the Butz book. It gives a good overview. You can download it for free but you would still be required to read it to understand.

I've read it and found it terrible.

Your explanation, which amounted to random droppings and explained nothing, was a failure for the reasons you've been given. Try again.
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Re: So, how does this "hoax" work, anyway?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:34 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:You still haven't explained where three million Auschwitz and 1.4 million Madjanek victims went. This is only peripherally related to the OP but your answer may provide some additioinal insight into how error can creep into the historical record.


I have handled this already Mary, don't make me have to go into detail past a single quote.

You don't need to go into detail. You just need to show us where they went. Easy.

Was the post I made on this too hard for you, Mary?
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817


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