Number of Jewish Dead

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Jeffk 1970
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:12 am

Denying-History wrote:The major issue for Jim and his 4 million Jewish survivors is that there wasn't even 4 million Jews in Europe after the war... Here is Hilburgs demographic estimates. The photos are taken from Nora Levin's book.

The Destruction of European Jewry.

Image

Image


I've tried to engage him in this discussion, he simply refused to address the whole "4 million Jews" issue.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:16 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:The major issue for Jim and his 4 million Jewish survivors is that there wasn't even 4 million Jews in Europe after the war... Here is Hilburgs demographic estimates. The photos are taken from Nora Levin's book.

The Destruction of European Jewry.

Image

Image


I've tried to engage him in this discussion, he simply refused to address the whole "4 million Jews" issue.


It's not much of a shock... It's the same old stupid rambling as always...
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:18 am

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:The major issue for Jim and his 4 million Jewish survivors is that there wasn't even 4 million Jews in Europe after the war... Here is Hilburgs demographic estimates. The photos are taken from Nora Levin's book.

The Destruction of European Jewry.

Image

Image


I've tried to engage him in this discussion, he simply refused to address the whole "4 million Jews" issue.


It's not much of a shock... It's the same old stupid rambling as always...


Jim slides away and refuses to answer.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:37 am

It doesn't take much to argue with him... His arguments are really outdated and a simple copy and paste from Nizkor would put him in his place... Which is rather sad.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:47 am

They might be outdated but his personal wacko spin he puts on them make them his sorely needed all fresh and new imaginary friends. Cos the old ones hightailed it outta there long since...
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:03 am

Denying-History wrote:It doesn't take much to argue with him... His arguments are really outdated and a simple copy and paste from Nizkor would put him in his place... Which is rather sad.


Aren't all deniers dinosaurs? Both in their age and their way of thinking?
k0nsl is younger (at least, as far as I can tell), so is Hunt, but I don't see real attempts at "scholarship," at least, not like you see with Graf or Mattogono (I use that term, "scholarship," very loosely with them but they do dress themselves up as academics and historians).
I don't know much about "Denier Bud."

Really what you are saying is correct, Nizkor still works very well with them. Honestly, is there anything new with the bunch? Just as an outsider looking in, someone who skirted the edge of denial, the ideas don't look new to me. It seems HD is stuck somewhere in the 1990's.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:15 am

Eh, the more intellectual deniers can easily push Nizkor aside... The point is simple that Jim is more so to say part of the "regressive" side of the denial movement. It doesn't really need any more input.

k0nsl doesn't really do much other then just post racist comments and post quotes from books that are from the 1950's (this should tell you something about their accuracy).

Mattogno is smart... But he seems to only really be part of the movement just so he can have some fame.

Garf really just seems out of it for good... He doesn't have much impact left, he's broke and stranded in Russia working as a translator.

Erics just an idiot whom still appears to be stuck in his mental state... Most likely cause of his 'Bipolar Disorder'.

I would argue that Rabbit, Blake, Mattogno, Burg, and Garf have all advanced past the old standards of denial. They sadly cannot get a good enough hook from the Radical members of the movement like Jim so we are basically look at what Shermer would describe as "its more conservative members try to disassociate themselves and their organization from the radical fringe". This is rather easy to see with Burg attacking Leuchter and Faurisson.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby NathanC » Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:57 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:It doesn't take much to argue with him... His arguments are really outdated and a simple copy and paste from Nizkor would put him in his place... Which is rather sad.


Aren't all deniers dinosaurs? Both in their age and their way of thinking?
k0nsl is younger (at least, as far as I can tell), so is Hunt, but I don't see real attempts at "scholarship," at least, not like you see with Graf or Mattogono (I use that term, "scholarship," very loosely with them but they do dress themselves up as academics and historians).
I don't know much about "Denier Bud."

Really what you are saying is correct, Nizkor still works very well with them. Honestly, is there anything new with the bunch? Just as an outsider looking in, someone who skirted the edge of denial, the ideas don't look new to me. It seems HD is stuck somewhere in the 1990's.


I'd agree that HD is stuck in the 90s. Random denier trolls you see on facebook are reduced to spamming 90s era memes like the Auschwitz 4M gambit or the old lie of 6M in World War I. I think Eric Hunt tried his own variatiob of the former as well.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:49 pm

Denying-History wrote:Eh, the more intellectual deniers can easily push Nizkor aside... The point is simple that Jim is more so to say part of the "regressive" side of the denial movement. It doesn't really need any more input.

k0nsl doesn't really do much other then just post racist comments and post quotes from books that are from the 1950's (this should tell you something about their accuracy).

Mattogno is smart... But he seems to only really be part of the movement just so he can have some fame.

Garf really just seems out of it for good... He doesn't have much impact left, he's broke and stranded in Russia working as a translator.

Erics just an idiot whom still appears to be stuck in his mental state... Most likely cause of his 'Bipolar Disorder'.

I would argue that Rabbit, Blake, Mattogno, Burg, and Garf have all advanced past the old standards of denial. They sadly cannot get a good enough hook from the Radical members of the movement like Jim so we are basically look at what Shermer would describe as "its more conservative members try to disassociate themselves and their organization from the radical fringe". This is rather easy to see with Burg attacking Leuchter and Faurisson.


I still find Nizkor valid, primarily for the reasons I gave above. People like Jim can't refute it so they ignore it.

HC and THHP are better and work better against the more knowledgeable deniers like the Rabbit, Mattogono and Graf, Berg and Blake.
Berg is just nuts and even his fellow deniers don't like him.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:58 pm

NathanC wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:It doesn't take much to argue with him... His arguments are really outdated and a simple copy and paste from Nizkor would put him in his place... Which is rather sad.


Aren't all deniers dinosaurs? Both in their age and their way of thinking?
k0nsl is younger (at least, as far as I can tell), so is Hunt, but I don't see real attempts at "scholarship," at least, not like you see with Graf or Mattogono (I use that term, "scholarship," very loosely with them but they do dress themselves up as academics and historians).
I don't know much about "Denier Bud."

Really what you are saying is correct, Nizkor still works very well with them. Honestly, is there anything new with the bunch? Just as an outsider looking in, someone who skirted the edge of denial, the ideas don't look new to me. It seems HD is stuck somewhere in the 1990's.


I'd agree that HD is stuck in the 90s. Random denier trolls you see on facebook are reduced to spamming 90s era memes like the Auschwitz 4M gambit or the old lie of 6M in World War I. I think Eric Hunt tried his own variatiob of the former as well.


Yeah, I like to point out that the old Auschwitz plaque said
"People," not "Jews." I also like to point out that the plaque said 1940-1945, large numbers of Jews didn't arrive until 1942.
This usually causes sputtering. I then follow it up with real researchers and historians questioned that figure (Reitlinger, Hilberg, etc.) and even Hoess himself disagreed with that number.
The one I can't find is a picture of the Majdanek plaque that said 1.5 million.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Diane King » Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:40 pm

OFFICIAL INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS RECORDS RELEASED: Sealed and guarded since the end of WWII at Arolsen, Germany, the Official IRC records reveal the actual Concentration Camp total death toll was 271,301. This was in 2016, for Pete's sake! (And that was for all causes!)

So honestly, it WAS NOT 6 million or 4 million or even 1 million but again, FOR ALL CAUSES MAYBE, and this is a bit high too, but it was frozen in ice, now is thawed. SO PLEASE, get real! :mrgreen:

http://truedemocracyparty.net/2012/06/r ... aust-hoax/
Last edited by Diane King on Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby RizoliTV » Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:44 pm

Cerdic wrote:Should we refer to the number of Jewish dead as "between 5 and 6 million", or would that be an unnecessary concession to deniers? The numbers and estimates mentioned above would even tend toward 5 million instead of 6 million. With some of the uncertainties around Jewish demographics as of 1939, the number of Jews relocated out of European Russia in 1941, and so on, a definite number to the nearest 100k can probably never be known.

What is the case, though, is the numbers and reasoned estimates give no support to the denier position that 1 million or fewer died.


Short and sweet.....
Oh please.....it could of been a billion and no one would know the difference....
Good rational thinking below, this is why I say what I say....its called common sense.

'SIX MILLION' UNTRUE ACCORDING TO NEUTRAL SWISS

It is clear, therefore, that the Germans could not possibly have gained control over or exterminated anything like six million Jews. Excluding the Soviet Union, the number of Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe after emigration was scarcely more than 3 million, by no means all of whom were interned. To approach the extermination of even half of six million would have meant the liquidation of every Jew living in Europe. And yet it is known that large numbers of Jews were alive in Europe after 1945. Philip Friedmann in Their Brother's Keepers (N.Y., 1957, p. 13), states that "at least a million Jews survived in the very crucible of the Nazi hell," while the official figure of the Jewish Joint Distribution Committee is 1,559,600. Thus, even if one accepts the latter estimate, the number of possible wartime Jewish deaths could not have exceeded a limit of one and a half million. Precisely this conclusion was reached by the reputable journal Baseler Nachrichten of neutral Switzerland. In an article entitled "Wie hoch ist die Zahl der jüdischen Opfer?" ("How high is the number of Jewish victims?", June 13th, 1946), it explained that purely on the basis of the population and emigration figures described above, a maximum of only one and a half million Jews could be numbered as casualties. Later on, however, it will be demonstrated conclusively that the number was actually far less, for the Baseler Nachrichten accepted the Joint Distribution Committee's figure of 1,559,600 survivors after the war, but we shall show that the number of claims for compensation by Jewish survivors is more than double that figure. This information was not available to the Swiss in 1946.

Ya, now it's around 4 million blood suckers.

JR

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:04 pm

Diane King wrote:OFFICIAL INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS RECORDS RELEASED: Sealed and guarded since the end of WWII at Arolsen, Germany, the Official IRC records reveal the actual Concentration Camp total death toll was 271,301. This was in 2016, for Pete's sake! (And that was for all causes!)

So honestly, it WAS NOT 6 million or 4 million or even 1 million but again, FOR ALL CAUSES MAYBE, and this is a bit high too, but it was frozen in ice, now is thawed. SO PLEASE, get real! :mrgreen:

http://truedemocracyparty.net/2012/06/r ... aust-hoax/



The Cross never counted every site... They have also said that this paper is for Germans and German Jews alone... They openly referred to this as "False Propaganda"

Image
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:08 pm

RizoliTV wrote:
Cerdic wrote:Should we refer to the number of Jewish dead as "between 5 and 6 million", or would that be an unnecessary concession to deniers? The numbers and estimates mentioned above would even tend toward 5 million instead of 6 million. With some of the uncertainties around Jewish demographics as of 1939, the number of Jews relocated out of European Russia in 1941, and so on, a definite number to the nearest 100k can probably never be known.

What is the case, though, is the numbers and reasoned estimates give no support to the denier position that 1 million or fewer died.


Short and sweet.....
Oh please.....it could of been a billion and no one would know the difference....
Good rational thinking below, this is why I say what I say....its called common sense.

'SIX MILLION' UNTRUE ACCORDING TO NEUTRAL SWISS

It is clear, therefore, that the Germans could not possibly have gained control over or exterminated anything like six million Jews. Excluding the Soviet Union, the number of Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe after emigration was scarcely more than 3 million, by no means all of whom were interned. To approach the extermination of even half of six million would have meant the liquidation of every Jew living in Europe. And yet it is known that large numbers of Jews were alive in Europe after 1945. Philip Friedmann in Their Brother's Keepers (N.Y., 1957, p. 13), states that "at least a million Jews survived in the very crucible of the Nazi hell," while the official figure of the Jewish Joint Distribution Committee is 1,559,600. Thus, even if one accepts the latter estimate, the number of possible wartime Jewish deaths could not have exceeded a limit of one and a half million. Precisely this conclusion was reached by the reputable journal Baseler Nachrichten of neutral Switzerland. In an article entitled "Wie hoch ist die Zahl der jüdischen Opfer?" ("How high is the number of Jewish victims?", June 13th, 1946), it explained that purely on the basis of the population and emigration figures described above, a maximum of only one and a half million Jews could be numbered as casualties. Later on, however, it will be demonstrated conclusively that the number was actually far less, for the Baseler Nachrichten accepted the Joint Distribution Committee's figure of 1,559,600 survivors after the war, but we shall show that the number of claims for compensation by Jewish survivors is more than double that figure. This information was not available to the Swiss in 1946.

Ya, now it's around 4 million blood suckers.

JR


Here we see Jim being openly antisemitic...
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby NathanC » Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:22 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Diane King wrote:OFFICIAL INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS RECORDS RELEASED: Sealed and guarded since the end of WWII at Arolsen, Germany, the Official IRC records reveal the actual Concentration Camp total death toll was 271,301. This was in 2016, for Pete's sake! (And that was for all causes!)

So honestly, it WAS NOT 6 million or 4 million or even 1 million but again, FOR ALL CAUSES MAYBE, and this is a bit high too, but it was frozen in ice, now is thawed. SO PLEASE, get real! :mrgreen:

http://truedemocracyparty.net/2012/06/r ... aust-hoax/



The Cross never counted every site... They have also said that this paper is for Germans and German Jews alone... They openly referred to this as "False Propaganda"

Image


The actual red cross report published right after the war is availalble here.

https://ia800304.us.archive.org/18/item ... orl/Report of the International Committee of the Red Cross on its activities during the second world war (September 1, 1939 - June 30, 1947) Vol 1_djvu.txt
VI. Special Categories of Civilians
(A). Jews

Under National Socialism, the Jews had become in truth
outcasts, condemned by rigid racial legislation to suffer tyranny, persecution and systematic extermination. No kind of pro-tection shielded them ; being neither PW nor civilian internees, they formed a separate category, without the benefit of any Convention. The supervision which the ICRC was empowered to exercise in favour of prisoners and internees did not apply
to them. In most cases, they were, in fact, nationals of the
State which held them in its power and which, secure in its supreme authority, allowed no intervention in their behalf. These unfortunate


To add to what DH said, the Red Cross themselves acknowledged that their authority to intervene on behalf of the Jews was severely limited. Even so, they were able to determine that the Jews were indeed being exterminated. King's a liar.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:53 pm

Its rather sad we have to explain this to them.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby RizoliTV » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:05 pm

The World Almanac for 1947, in quoting figures supplies by the American Jewish Committee states that the world Jewish population in 1939 was 15,688,259. The New York Times of February 22, 1948, stated that the world Jewish population ranged from 15,600,000 to 18,700,000, excluding some 600,000 to 700,000 living in Palestine. How could the Jewish population have increased so rapidly after losing six million during World War II? Walter Sanning, the author of Dissolution of European Jewry, says that no less than 2,200,000 Jews had emigrated out of Europe leaving 2,847,000 Jews residing there at the height of the German occupation in June 1941. After the war, 3,375,000 Jews, according to the Red Cross, applied for holocaust reparations. This figure included many of the emigrants. Thus, the actual number of those who died at the camps from all causes ranges between 150,000 and 300,000.

(It should also be noted that Elizabeth Dole, president of the American Red Cross, and wife of former Sen. Bob Dole, revealed that the official death records from Auschwitz had been uncovered in the Soviet Archives. It listed 70,000 deaths from all causes.)

The Germans are noted for being meticulous record keepers. There was no attempt made to destroy wartime records, 1,100 tons of which were seized in the U.S. Zone of occupation alone. British Historian, Colin Cross, writes in his biography of Hitler, on page 313: “There does not exist then, anything like a written order signed by Hitler for the extermination of the Jews in Europe.”

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Diane King » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:26 pm

Jim may have stated this, but bears repeating: (It should also be noted that Elizabeth Dole, president of the American Red Cross, and wife of former Sen. Bob Dole, revealed that the official death records from Auschwitz had been uncovered in the Soviet Archives. It listed 70,000 deaths from all causes.)

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Link please.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby NathanC » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:36 pm

It bears mentioning that King is a complete idiot like Rizoli. Not only can she not or will not respond to her blatant falsehood being called out, but all she can do is act as a parrot for Rizoli and repeat his BS.
Pathetic.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:54 pm

RizoliTV wrote:The World Almanac for 1947, in quoting figures supplies by the American Jewish Committee states that the world Jewish population in 1939 was 15,688,259. The New York Times of February 22, 1948, stated that the world Jewish population ranged from 15,600,000 to 18,700,000,


The modern Jewish population is around 16 million.... Your wrong to use the world Almanac as its numbers were only estimates... Also mind that the world almanac estimate for 1949 was 11,266,600. As for the 1947 estimate issue I would direct you to the following.

Now you may be wondering what happened to all those Jews in 1948-49. No fresh estimates were made between 1938 and 1947. The figures listed for 1941, 1947, and 1948 are identified as estimates made in 1938. The source for the estimate for 1944 is not given, and the numbers are listed differently than in other years. In 1944, the numbers are given as a part of a list of various world religions rather than standing on their own with a country-by-country breakdown as in the other years.


http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/worldalmanac.html

I have already provided Demographic estimates for Europe and the numbers have shifted.... Its very easy to see.

Image

Image

excluding some 600,000 to 700,000 living in Palestine. How could the Jewish population have increased so rapidly after losing six million during World War II?


Simple... THEY DIDN'T...

"Dear Mr. Kominsky,
"Thank you for your letter of inquiry of January 6.
"The world Jewish population figures printed in this
story came from the 1948 edition of the World Almanac.
Later we checked it with the American Jewish Committee and
other sources and said in the correction, as I noted to you
in my previous letter, that the authorities agree that
Hitler's wholesale massacre of Jews during the war reduced
the Jewish population to perhaps 12 million today (2/26/48).

"If Mr. Freedman met with me I do not remember it.
The problem is of course, that you are talking about events
that took place 19 years ago. I see hundreds of people per
year, many of them only for a few minutes so I could not
swear that I did not see Mr. Freedman but if I did it made
no impression either upon me or upon my assistant.
"I do not know what Mr. Freedman means by examination
of documents but to my knowledge we had no particular
documents bearing on the issue in question.
"I hope this answers your questions; if there is
anything else you wish to know please do not hesitate to
write again.
"Sincerely, Hanson W. Baldwin (Military Editor)" \


Walter Sanning, the author of Dissolution of European Jewry, says that no less than 2,200,000 Jews had emigrated out of Europe leaving 2,847,000 Jews residing there at the height of the German occupation in June 1941. After the war, 3,375,000 Jews, according to the Red Cross, applied for holocaust reparations. This figure included many of the emigrants. Thus, the actual number of those who died at the camps from all causes ranges between 150,000 and 300,000.


your claiming emigration is the cause for the population decline? Maybe you should actually look at the demographics of the world population during 1939 and 1946.

Image

(It should also be noted that Elizabeth Dole, president of the American Red Cross, and wife of former Sen. Bob Dole, revealed that the official death records from Auschwitz had been uncovered in the Soviet Archives. It listed 70,000 deaths from all causes.)


These only represent recorded deaths without euphemisms... Your historical knowledge is lacking...
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby RizoliTV » Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:16 pm

Hands of a young child.....LOL
No wonder you don't know what your talking about.
Still in Jr High?


JR

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:22 pm

:blink: That's all you've got? Really?? Must be the dementia and memory of his own 19yo hands while in junior high school speaking...
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:47 pm

I'm in my early twenties Jim... So I am not exactly sure what you expected. I also didn't realize that Jim's retorts were Republican primary quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ve6I92hEozo

Jim is acting like a child, this behavior isn't what one would expect of a retired adult. He completely skipped over the entire issue to demographics, most likely cause he knows nothing about them. As always, it is Jim Rizoli. So one shouldn't expect much from him. So maybe if he doesn't have an understanding of demographics, he then might have and understanding of Zyklon-B. Maybe when Jim stops acting like a politician we might be able to make some progress here.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:10 am

RizoliTV wrote:The World Almanac for 1947, in quoting figures supplies by the American Jewish Committee states that the world Jewish population in 1939 was 15,688,259. The New York Times of February 22, 1948, stated that the world Jewish population ranged from 15,600,000 to 18,700,000, excluding some 600,000 to 700,000 living in Palestine. How could the Jewish population have increased so rapidly after losing six million during World War II? Walter Sanning, the author of Dissolution of European Jewry, says that no less than 2,200,000 Jews had emigrated out of Europe leaving 2,847,000 Jews residing there at the height of the German occupation in June 1941. After the war, 3,375,000 Jews, according to the Red Cross, applied for holocaust reparations. This figure included many of the emigrants. Thus, the actual number of those who died at the camps from all causes ranges between 150,000 and 300,000.

(It should also be noted that Elizabeth Dole, president of the American Red Cross, and wife of former Sen. Bob Dole, revealed that the official death records from Auschwitz had been uncovered in the Soviet Archives. It listed 70,000 deaths from all causes.)

The Germans are noted for being meticulous record keepers. There was no attempt made to destroy wartime records, 1,100 tons of which were seized in the U.S. Zone of occupation alone. British Historian, Colin Cross, writes in his biography of Hitler, on page 313: “There does not exist then, anything like a written order signed by Hitler for the extermination of the Jews in Europe.”


Wow, Jim is trying to convince us that the Holocaust is a hoax by trotting out the old and moldy World Almanac canard.

It's official:

Jim is the worst denier I've ever come across.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:24 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
RizoliTV wrote:The World Almanac for 1947, in quoting figures supplies by the American Jewish Committee states that the world Jewish population in 1939 was 15,688,259. The New York Times of February 22, 1948, stated that the world Jewish population ranged from 15,600,000 to 18,700,000, excluding some 600,000 to 700,000 living in Palestine. How could the Jewish population have increased so rapidly after losing six million during World War II? Walter Sanning, the author of Dissolution of European Jewry, says that no less than 2,200,000 Jews had emigrated out of Europe leaving 2,847,000 Jews residing there at the height of the German occupation in June 1941. After the war, 3,375,000 Jews, according to the Red Cross, applied for holocaust reparations. This figure included many of the emigrants. Thus, the actual number of those who died at the camps from all causes ranges between 150,000 and 300,000.

(It should also be noted that Elizabeth Dole, president of the American Red Cross, and wife of former Sen. Bob Dole, revealed that the official death records from Auschwitz had been uncovered in the Soviet Archives. It listed 70,000 deaths from all causes.)

The Germans are noted for being meticulous record keepers. There was no attempt made to destroy wartime records, 1,100 tons of which were seized in the U.S. Zone of occupation alone. British Historian, Colin Cross, writes in his biography of Hitler, on page 313: “There does not exist then, anything like a written order signed by Hitler for the extermination of the Jews in Europe.”


Wow, Jim is trying to convince us that the Holocaust is a hoax by trotting out the old and moldy World Almanac canard.

It's official:

Jim is the worst denier I've ever come across.


I am trying to understand what else you expected from him... Hes a retired adult - most likely in his 60's - who is delusional...
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:50 am

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
RizoliTV wrote:The World Almanac for 1947, in quoting figures supplies by the American Jewish Committee states that the world Jewish population in 1939 was 15,688,259. The New York Times of February 22, 1948, stated that the world Jewish population ranged from 15,600,000 to 18,700,000, excluding some 600,000 to 700,000 living in Palestine. How could the Jewish population have increased so rapidly after losing six million during World War II? Walter Sanning, the author of Dissolution of European Jewry, says that no less than 2,200,000 Jews had emigrated out of Europe leaving 2,847,000 Jews residing there at the height of the German occupation in June 1941. After the war, 3,375,000 Jews, according to the Red Cross, applied for holocaust reparations. This figure included many of the emigrants. Thus, the actual number of those who died at the camps from all causes ranges between 150,000 and 300,000.

(It should also be noted that Elizabeth Dole, president of the American Red Cross, and wife of former Sen. Bob Dole, revealed that the official death records from Auschwitz had been uncovered in the Soviet Archives. It listed 70,000 deaths from all causes.)

The Germans are noted for being meticulous record keepers. There was no attempt made to destroy wartime records, 1,100 tons of which were seized in the U.S. Zone of occupation alone. British Historian, Colin Cross, writes in his biography of Hitler, on page 313: “There does not exist then, anything like a written order signed by Hitler for the extermination of the Jews in Europe.”


Wow, Jim is trying to convince us that the Holocaust is a hoax by trotting out the old and moldy World Almanac canard.

It's official:

Jim is the worst denier I've ever come across.


I am trying to understand what else you expected from him... Hes a retired adult - most likely in his 60's - who is delusional...


It would be nice to have a challenge.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:02 am

Think about who we are talking about... Most these people don't even understand the origin of these documents or speeches. The will even go as far to claim that these are modern recordings...

BelzeBob wrote:Yes, I've heard that "recently obtained" Himmler speech about exterminating the Jews.... Though I think it's made in a studio using modern voice-print technology. (Well, that's another story maybe.)

https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=36057&sid=5a8ebbbd47bdfb9a1518fbfbf8603193#p36057

There is no such thing as being an intellectual for majority of their movement. The ones who do pull off some credentials prove to be very faulty. Or show to be completely dishonest and judgemental.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:52 am

Denying-History wrote:Think about who we are talking about... Most these people don't even understand the origin of these documents or speeches. The will even go as far to claim that these are modern recordings...

BelzeBob wrote:Yes, I've heard that "recently obtained" Himmler speech about exterminating the Jews.... Though I think it's made in a studio using modern voice-print technology. (Well, that's another story maybe.)

https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=36057&sid=5a8ebbbd47bdfb9a1518fbfbf8603193#p36057

There is no such thing as being an intellectual for majority of their movement. The ones who do pull off some credentials prove to be very faulty. Or show to be completely dishonest and judgemental.


You are right.
I'm going to get back to the topic at hand. I've got a long weekend, I'm going to look into more research.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:55 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Think about who we are talking about... Most these people don't even understand the origin of these documents or speeches. The will even go as far to claim that these are modern recordings...

BelzeBob wrote:Yes, I've heard that "recently obtained" Himmler speech about exterminating the Jews.... Though I think it's made in a studio using modern voice-print technology. (Well, that's another story maybe.)

https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=36057&sid=5a8ebbbd47bdfb9a1518fbfbf8603193#p36057

There is no such thing as being an intellectual for majority of their movement. The ones who do pull off some credentials prove to be very faulty. Or show to be completely dishonest and judgemental.


You are right.
I'm going to get back to the topic at hand. I've got a long weekend, I'm going to look into more research.

You going to visit one of the sites?
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:57 am

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Think about who we are talking about... Most these people don't even understand the origin of these documents or speeches. The will even go as far to claim that these are modern recordings...

BelzeBob wrote:Yes, I've heard that "recently obtained" Himmler speech about exterminating the Jews.... Though I think it's made in a studio using modern voice-print technology. (Well, that's another story maybe.)

https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=36057&sid=5a8ebbbd47bdfb9a1518fbfbf8603193#p36057

There is no such thing as being an intellectual for majority of their movement. The ones who do pull off some credentials prove to be very faulty. Or show to be completely dishonest and judgemental.


You are right.
I'm going to get back to the topic at hand. I've got a long weekend, I'm going to look into more research.

You going to visit one of the sites?


No, unfortunately.

I'm going to dive into some of the books I have, do some more on-line research.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:05 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Think about who we are talking about... Most these people don't even understand the origin of these documents or speeches. The will even go as far to claim that these are modern recordings...

BelzeBob wrote:Yes, I've heard that "recently obtained" Himmler speech about exterminating the Jews.... Though I think it's made in a studio using modern voice-print technology. (Well, that's another story maybe.)

https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=36057&sid=5a8ebbbd47bdfb9a1518fbfbf8603193#p36057

There is no such thing as being an intellectual for majority of their movement. The ones who do pull off some credentials prove to be very faulty. Or show to be completely dishonest and judgemental.


You are right.
I'm going to get back to the topic at hand. I've got a long weekend, I'm going to look into more research.

You going to visit one of the sites?


No, unfortunately.

I'm going to dive into some of the books I have, do some more on-line research.


Oh, I did recently get my hands on the full transcript of Shoah. If you like I can send you some excerpts.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:40 am

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Think about who we are talking about... Most these people don't even understand the origin of these documents or speeches. The will even go as far to claim that these are modern recordings...

BelzeBob wrote:Yes, I've heard that "recently obtained" Himmler speech about exterminating the Jews.... Though I think it's made in a studio using modern voice-print technology. (Well, that's another story maybe.)

https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=36057&sid=5a8ebbbd47bdfb9a1518fbfbf8603193#p36057

There is no such thing as being an intellectual for majority of their movement. The ones who do pull off some credentials prove to be very faulty. Or show to be completely dishonest and judgemental.


You are right.
I'm going to get back to the topic at hand. I've got a long weekend, I'm going to look into more research.

You going to visit one of the sites?


No, unfortunately.

I'm going to dive into some of the books I have, do some more on-line research.


Oh, I did recently get my hands on the full transcript of Shoah. If you like I can send you some excerpts.


Sure. Send me anything interesting.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jul 29, 2016 8:55 pm

I was trying to pull something from Arad, it did not work out. I'm going to post later.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:56 am

RizoliTV wrote:Hands of a young child.....LOL
No wonder you don't know what your talking about.
Still in Jr High?


JR


Cut the ad-homs and act like an adult for once.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:31 am

copying two posts from ISF, first my reply to Nessie's query about quantifying the methods used to kill Jews during the Holocaust and second Nick Terry's reply to a followup question from Nessie on the mobile-killing actions (you will notice that my tally was not firm and, relying on Hilberg to some extent, left open the # of Jews killed in the mobile-kiling actions - Nick's post addresses the this):

My post:
Nessie, I haven't seen a comprehensive breakdown at the level of detail you are asking for. For Majdanek, I've looked at gassing vs shooting vs privation, and come up with between 15,000 and 20,000 estimate gassing death (the USHMM gives a higher estimate but I haven't been able to figure out why).

Of course Birkenau would be very different from Majdanek - at Birkenau there were about 600,000 deemed unfit on arrival and gassed straightaway; to these must be added those selected inside the camp, as Muselmänner or in the Gypsy and family camp actions - this number is unknown to me. At Chełmno, Sobibór, Bełzec, and Treblinka nearly all would have been gassed with some 1000s of sick/infirm/weak shot on arrival.

T4 didn't involve Jews per se, of course, but over 70,000 victims were gassed or killed by means of injection during the official so-called euthanasia program (Sept '39 - Aug '41), with IIRC over more 100,000 murdered, most often by injection or other use of drugs, during the so-called wild euthanasia that followed.

Blatman and Wachsmann would give estimates for the number who died during the death marches and camp liquidations - but, again, the death marches killed KL prisoners in general and were not aimed at Jewish liquidations, so caution is needed here. Yad Vashem gives a figure of up to 250,000 deaths during such actions in the final 10 months of the war, with 1/3 of the victims being Jews.

OTOH 14f13, an extension of the so-called euthanasia to the KLs beginning in spring 1941, targeted Jews along with asocials and political prisoners IIRC. Perhaps as many as 20,000 were killed, both inside the KLs and at the T-4 killing centers, in Aktion 14f13.

Here is the spreadsheet I've made for myself at a higher level. It's based on Hilberg with tweaks from HC articles and various other sources. Btw Gerlach's most recent book is another good source on causes of mortality during these events. I am sure there are better compilations of deaths than my own note taking but this is what I have handy:

Image
Image

Nick Terry's post, replying to Nessie's query ("Thanks for that. By mobile killings, is that the Einsatzgruppen?"):
And Order Police, Wehrmacht, Waffen-SS, plus collaborator police. The 2 million figure would also include mass shootings carried out by the Romanian Army and police, plus pogroms.

The Einsatzgruppen in the strict sense claimed only 633,000 victims, as per the Korherr report, which fits with the earlier Einsatzgruppen reports, but these show for example that Einsatzgruppe A didn't claim the Rumbula massacres outside Riga in 1941; their reports mentioned Rumbula but the credit for the bodycount was given to Jeckeln (HSSPF Ostland).

One problem with Hilberg's conception of mobile killings is that he doesn't really factor in Poland to his estimate of this figure, but presents his estimate at the end of his chapter on the USSR. But there were extensive mass shootings by units that can be considered 'mobile', because they moved from town to town, such as the famous Police Battalion 101 in the Lublin district, across both western and eastern Poland. So many ghetto and camp deaths as counted by Hilberg were actually shooting deaths.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:04 pm

further explanation posted by Nick Terry at ISF:
Originally Posted by Nessie

Thanks. I was not aware that from Korherr; "In addition there are the figures of the Main Reich Security Office for the evacuation of the Jews from the Russian territories including the formerly Baltic countries since the beginning of the Eastern campaign - 633, 300" was with reference to mobile killings. I just used it to question denier claims of resettlement in the Russian east, when Korherr was claiming Jews had been evacuated from the area.

Linking the 633,000 figure with the Einsatzgruppen is standard, e.g. in Hilberg 2003, pp.1315-6.

There were no deportations to camps from the 'Russian territories', which meant the Ostministerium + military administration zones, and the two Korherr reports, long and short, mention the Bialystok and Galicia districts elsewhere. Deportations in 1942 from the Bialystok and Galicia districts would not have added up to 633,000 anyway, and it would have been strange if the RSHA ignored the USSR entirely.

The Korherr report states that the figure for the Russian territories is incomplete, which means that HSSPF-claimed bodycounts are not included, nor are the Kommandostab RFSS actions of e.g. the SS-Cavalry Brigade; HSSPFs like Jeckeln and Pruetzmann reported directly to Himmler. Thus Meldung 51, submitted by HSSPF Ukraine, with 361,000 Jews reported as executed, is not in the 633,000 figure.

Korherr doesn't claim to have been given access to the Einsatzgruppen reports, which were a mess statistically. Gestapo Mueller had to order the Einsatzgruppen in July 1942 to keep precise count of executions along standardised lines.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817


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