Number of Jewish Dead

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:57 am

scrmbldggs wrote:And maybe not mixing this up from various sources like this now would be better? BTW, who is "M. Kaldow" referenced by Mr Baxter?


Not exactly sure... The Chelmno estimate seems fine at the moment, I will though most likely take the transports Jeffk provided for 1943 and see how accurate the number 25,000 is later. As for Kaldow, I am not sure.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:21 am

Denying-History wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:And maybe not mixing this up from various sources like this now would be better? BTW, who is "M. Kaldow" referenced by Mr Baxter?


Not exactly sure... The Chelmno estimate seems fine at the moment, I will though most likely take the transports Jeffk provided for 1943 and see how accurate the number 25,000 is later. As for Kaldow, I am not sure.
(my bold)

That weakens the work, imho. Montague's scholarship is robust. But I guess you'll see what works best for a plausible result.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:21 am

I think Piper is probably the most accurate, I also trust Van Pelt.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:24 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:And maybe not mixing this up from various sources like this now would be better? BTW, who is "M. Kaldow" referenced by Mr Baxter?


Not exactly sure... The Chelmno estimate seems fine at the moment, I will though most likely take the transports Jeffk provided for 1943 and see how accurate the number 25,000 is later. As for Kaldow, I am not sure.
(my bold)

That weakens the work, imho. Montague's scholarship is robust. But I guess you'll see what works best for a plausible result.


Montage's work is more then plausible, I just do not own his book, which doesn't exactly help.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:24 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I think Piper is probably the most accurate, I also trust Van Pelt.


I haven't honestly seen any numbers from Pelt... Did he actually release an estimate?
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:27 am

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I think Piper is probably the most accurate, I also trust Van Pelt.


I haven't honestly seen any numbers from Pelt... Did he actually release an estimate?


I need to go back through his report, I think he agrees with Piper.
The ironic thing is Piper's and Hoess's number's are pretty close.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:30 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I think Piper is probably the most accurate, I also trust Van Pelt.


I haven't honestly seen any numbers from Pelt... Did he actually release an estimate?


I need to go back through his report, I think he agrees with Piper.
The ironic thing is Piper's and Hoess's number's are pretty close.


I believe that Hoess's Number was 1.13 million. Though in his memoir he said the number was slightly higher. Mind though that Hoess's number doesn't break down into groups. Hoess's estimate treats all groups as a cohesive body.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:55 am

Van Pelt mentions that Hoess's lowest estimate is 1.2 million.

Piper estimated that 865,000 Jews were murdered on arrival, based on his transport numbers. These were Jews that arrived at the camp but were never registered.
Piper also estimates that 190,000 Jews were transferred to other camps with100,000 Jews dying after registration (in the gas chambers after they were too sick to work or by disease, starvation, etc.).
This gets us to the number of Jewish dead, 965,000 (Van Pelt says 960,000 but that's obviously a typo).
The rest of the 1.1 Million is made up of non-Jews.

See page 46-47 of Van Pelt's report.

Van Pelt also discusses Pressac but sides with Piper's higher number.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:58 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Van Pelt mentions that Hoess's lowest estimate is 1.2 million.

Piper estimated that 865,000 Jews were murdered on arrival, based on his transport numbers. These were Jews that arrived at the camp but were never registered.
Piper also estimates that 190,000 Jews were transferred to other camps with100,000 Jews dying after registration (in the gas chambers after they were too sick to work or by disease, starvation, etc.).
This gets us to the number of Jewish dead, 965,000 (Van Pelt says 960,000 but that's obviously a typo).
The rest of the 1.1 Million is made up of non-Jews.

See page 46-47 of Van Pelt's report.

Van Pelt also discusses Pressac but sides with Piper's higher number.


Pressacs numbers are to low... I wouldn't blame Pelt for taking pipers numbers. Though this is rather nice to know.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:11 am

Alright, I decided that doing the Einzatgrouppen sites is a bit to much work so I'm just going to take up Hilburgs estimates. I made an update to the death listing, but I do question the USHMM's estimates for other camps. Ether way we end up with 4,924,627 Jews total in the holocaust.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Cerdic » Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:15 am

Should we refer to the number of Jewish dead as "between 5 and 6 million", or would that be an unnecessary concession to deniers? The numbers and estimates mentioned above would even tend toward 5 million instead of 6 million. With some of the uncertainties around Jewish demographics as of 1939, the number of Jews relocated out of European Russia in 1941, and so on, a definite number to the nearest 100k can probably never be known.

What is the case, though, is the numbers and reasoned estimates give no support to the denier position that 1 million or fewer died.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby nickterry » Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:54 am

Cerdic wrote:Should we refer to the number of Jewish dead as "between 5 and 6 million", or would that be an unnecessary concession to deniers? The numbers and estimates mentioned above would even tend toward 5 million instead of 6 million. With some of the uncertainties around Jewish demographics as of 1939, the number of Jews relocated out of European Russia in 1941, and so on, a definite number to the nearest 100k can probably never be known.

What is the case, though, is the numbers and reasoned estimates give no support to the denier position that 1 million or fewer died.


I insist that my students refer to "between 5 and 6 million" or use my own (provisional) calculation of 5.3 million, which I originally worked out at Axis History Forum a decade ago. The breakdown is posted below.

Since then I would say I was cautious with Hungary and a little too high with Russia proper, which makes little difference. I'd also clarify the Auschwitz number - the 1 million includes deaths of registered inmates from starvation/overwork, ditto Majdanek - the number of Jewish victims includes camp deaths, shootings and few gassings, while Maly Trostenets is not to be understood as a figure for victims killed on arrival after deportation, it was a killing site for Jews from the Minsk ghetto as well; Semlin includes non-Jewish victims.

Prewar Jewish Deaths % Site
Population
Germany 499,682 150,000 30% deportation to camps and ghettos
Austria 191,481 48,767 25% deportation to camps and ghettos
Denmark 6,500 116 1.7% Theresienstadt
Norway 1800 758 42% Auschwitz
Finland 1,618 8 refugees - Auschwitz
Netherlands 140,000 102,000 73% Auschwitz, Sobibor
Belgium 90,000 23,484 26% Auschwitz
Luxemburg 3,144 720 23% Auschwitz, Chelmno/Lodz ghetto
France 270,000 76,134 28% Auschwitz
Italy 46,656 6,513 14% Auschwitz
Yugoslavia 82,242 67,288 82% mass shootings, Semlin, Auschwitz
Albania 204 591 refugees - Belsen
Greece 74,000 59,185 80% Auschwitz
Bulgaria 48,398 0 0% -
Czechoslovakia* 207,261 143,297 69%
- Bohemia 118,310 77,297 65% deportations to camps and ghettos
- Slovakia 88,951 66,000 74% Auschwitz, Lublin district ghettos
Romania* 564,097 120,919 21% ghettos in Transnistria/Ukraine
Hungary * 825,000 400,000+ 48% Auschwitz
Poland 3,350,000 2,890,000 86% death camps, mass shootings
- western Poland 1,600,000 death camps, mass shootings
- eastern Poland 1,210,000 mass shootings, death camps
- Vilno region 100,000 80,000 80% mass shootings
Lithuania 145,000 140,000 96% mass shootings
Latvia 95,000 77,000 81% mass shootings
Estonia 4,500 1,000 22% mass shootings
USSR 3,028,538 1,050,000 35% mass shootings
- Belorussian SSR 375,092 250,000 67% mass shootings
- Ukrainian SSR 1,532,776 656,000 43% mass shootings
- Russian SFSR 956,599 144,000 15% mass shootings
Total 9,882,382 5.36 million+ 54%

* 1940 borders. All other figures refer to 1939 borders.

Methods of Genocide
Starvation, Overwork 1938-45 c.700,000
- Ghettos, labour camps 1939-44 c,300,000 in Poland
- Theresienstadt ghetto 1941-45 35,591 primarily from Germany, Austria, Bohemia
- Romanian ghettos 1941-43 120,919 located in annexed Ukrainian territory
- KZs, death marches 1938-45 c.250,000 mostly in 1944-45

Mass Shootings 1941-43 c. 2 million in USSR, Poland, Yugoslavia

Gassing 1941-44 c. 2.683 million
-Auschwitz 1942-1944 1 million Zyklon-B in 5 crematoria, 2 ‘bunkers’
-Treblinka 1942-1943 780,000 10 petrol exhaust gas chambers
-Belzec 1942 434,000 6 petrol exhaust gas chambers
-Sobibor 1942-3 200,000 6 petrol exhaust gas chambers
-Chelmno 1941-2, 1944 152,000 3 petrol exhaust gas vans
-Majdanek 1942-44 50,000 1 Zyklon B gas chamber, mass shootings
-Maly Trostinets, Minsk 1942 50,000 2-3 petrol exhaust gas vans
-Semlin, Belgrade 1942 17,000 2 petrol exhaust gas vans

Source: Wolfgang Benz (ed), Dimension des Völkermords. Die Zahl der jüdischen Opfer des Nationalsozialismus. Munich, 1991, modified by subsequent research on Eastern Europe. In 1961 Raul Hilberg (1926-2007) calculated 5.1 million killed.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby RizoliTV » Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:03 pm

Denying-History wrote:I'm well aware Rizoli is a pain in the ass. I most likely would have missed it for a little bit. Anyway I believe that we found the missing 2,000 Jews. :)

I think I am going to take up the USHMM's number for Auschwits... It appears the most accurate.

Also an update on the Einzatgrouppen it's about 10% done.



I believe the official figure closer to 500,000 killed in all the camps and half of them might of been Jews.
The Skeptoids who surprisingly believe anything that comes their way....(Are you sure you're on the right site here)
Believe that 6 million Jews and many more were killed in Homicidal gas chambers with bug spray, Electrocutions, Co2, airless rooms, gas, diesel gas, maybe some flatulence from all the people within the room from eating to many turnips, you name it, but can't prove any of it except for the Horror Disneyland stories told by those that NEVER saw anything but were second and third hand witness because uncle Sy saw it happen, and uncle SY wouldn't lie .....would he?....LOL Bottom line the HoloHuxsters death estimates are at least 10 times overdone.....

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:10 pm

RizoliTV wrote:I believe the official figure closer to 500,000 killed in all the camps and half of them might of been Jews.


Rizoli damned himself over by putting "I believe" in the start of his paragraph. It means that his entire piece is based only on personal opinion... We all know how this ends up.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby RizoliTV » Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:30 pm

Denying-History wrote:
RizoliTV wrote:I believe the official figure closer to 500,000 killed in all the camps and half of them might of been Jews.


Rizoli damned himself over by putting "I believe" in the start of his paragraph. It means that his entire piece is based only on personal opinion... We all know how this ends up.


I'm reading a lot of different books at the same time so my summation is what it is....
I would think ALL statements made by people are their opinions, because they are saying them.. I hope that is not so hard to understand for some here.
Here is a good website from a fella who was actually a Mensa person, not a stupid person.
Hopefully you know what Mensa is....
Nice to see he got it right. Some times really smart people are not so smart in real life situations but he seems to be right on here. He understands what realities are and lies are.
http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Jews/Je ... umber.html

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby NathanC » Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:04 pm

I'd like to make a suggestion. On a thread where we appear to be having a good, productive discussion like this one or the Invasion of Poland thread, let's ignore Rizoli unless he has something of value to say. We don't need to break useful and productive discussions by entertaining Rizoli's attempts to derail.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby NathanC » Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:14 pm

[url][/url]
Denying-History wrote:
RizoliTV wrote:I believe the official figure closer to 500,000 killed in all the camps and half of them might of been Jews.


Rizoli damned himself over by putting "I believe" in the start of his paragraph. It means that his entire piece is based only on personal opinion... We all know how this ends up.


That's nothing compared to this.

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27046&p=525810#top

RizoliTV wrote:Traces of ZB does not prove mass extermination.
I've never read anywhere about the antiseptics you mention.....
The bodies in the morgues were laded with lice. I can't prove it but I believe they ZB the morgues with the bodies in them and this is why people come to the conclusions that people were being "gassed"....dead bodies might of been but not real live people.

JR


He's pretty much admitted that he can't prove this, or any of the crap he's selling.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:27 pm

NathanC wrote:I'd like to make a suggestion. On a thread where we appear to be having a good, productive discussion like this one or the Invasion of Poland thread, let's ignore Rizoli unless he has something of value to say. We don't need to break useful and productive discussions by entertaining Rizoli's attempts to derail.


Splendid idea. I very much agree.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:33 pm

RizoliTV wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
RizoliTV wrote:I believe the official figure closer to 500,000 killed in all the camps and half of them might of been Jews.


Rizoli damned himself over by putting "I believe" in the start of his paragraph. It means that his entire piece is based only on personal opinion... We all know how this ends up.


I'm reading a lot of different books at the same time so my summation is what it is....
I would think ALL statements made by people are their opinions, because they are saying them.. I hope that is not so hard to understand for some here.
Here is a good website from a fella who was actually a Mensa person, not a stupid person.
Hopefully you know what Mensa is....
Nice to see he got it right. Some times really smart people are not so smart in real life situations but he seems to be right on here. He understands what realities are and lies are.
http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Jews/Je ... umber.html

JR


Holocaust jokebooks do not count.


Anyone can read a book. It doesn't mean your opinion is more valid than others research. Your opinion doesn't outweigh the research of scholars.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby RizoliTV » Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:44 pm

NathanC wrote:[url][/url]
Denying-History wrote:
RizoliTV wrote:I believe the official figure closer to 500,000 killed in all the camps and half of them might of been Jews.


Rizoli damned himself over by putting "I believe" in the start of his paragraph. It means that his entire piece is based only on personal opinion... We all know how this ends up.


That's nothing compared to this.

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27046&p=525810#top

RizoliTV wrote:Traces of ZB does not prove mass extermination.
I've never read anywhere about the antiseptics you mention.....
The bodies in the morgues were laded with lice. I can't prove it but I believe they ZB the morgues with the bodies in them and this is why people come to the conclusions that people were being "gassed"....dead bodies might of been but not real live people.

JR


He's pretty much admitted that he can't prove this, or any of the crap he's selling.


You can't prove ANYTHING you say either but you think you have all the answers....A Skeptoid that isn't questioning the HoloHoax....seems like a contradiction of terms. Again...... you are posting here because?????
Oh, by the way I could care less if you respond as long as their is a record of what I say that's all that counts.
Some honest hearted people have come to an understanding the truth about the HoloHoax by coming across my information on the web. I have a few hundred videos and lots of responses on other websites. The Jews so far have failed to stop me. Do a search for my name and that will keep you busy. Not to mention the many media articles about me. I don't sit on my ass I'm a doer....and you? So the message is out there. You can ignore it all you want but guess what? I'm not posting here for you....get it! So keep posting I will be right behind you, Until Goodwins Law kicks in. Without people like you what would I have to do? LOL


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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:48 pm

RizoliTV wrote:
NathanC wrote:[url][/url]
Denying-History wrote:
RizoliTV wrote:I believe the official figure closer to 500,000 killed in all the camps and half of them might of been Jews.


Rizoli damned himself over by putting "I believe" in the start of his paragraph. It means that his entire piece is based only on personal opinion... We all know how this ends up.


That's nothing compared to this.

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27046&p=525810#top

RizoliTV wrote:Traces of ZB does not prove mass extermination.
I've never read anywhere about the antiseptics you mention.....
The bodies in the morgues were laded with lice. I can't prove it but I believe they ZB the morgues with the bodies in them and this is why people come to the conclusions that people were being "gassed"....dead bodies might of been but not real live people.

JR


He's pretty much admitted that he can't prove this, or any of the crap he's selling.


You can't prove ANYTHING you say either but you think you have all the answers....A Skeptoid that isn't questioning the HoloHoax....seems like a contradiction of terms. Again...... you are posting here because?????
Oh, by the way I could care less if you respond as long as their is a record of what I say that's all that counts.
Some honest hearted people have come to an understanding the truth about the HoloHoax by coming across my information on the web. I have a few hundred videos and lots of responses on other websites. The Jews so far have failed to stop me. Do a search for my name and that will keep you busy. Not to mention the many media articles about me. I don't sit on my ass I'm a doer....and you? So the message is out there. You can ignore it all you want but guess what? I'm not posting here for you....get it! So keep posting I will be right behind you, Until Goodwins Law kicks in. Without people like you what would I have to do? LOL


Jim Rizoli
CCFIILE.COM


He knows more about the holocaust and Zyklon B then you can ever hope to reach.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B1zvBWGG8Jo
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:10 pm

RizoliTV wrote:
NatanC wrote:He's pretty much admitted that he can't prove this, or any of the crap he's selling.
You can't prove ANYTHING you say either...


This I find of value. It shows Jim has no valid evidence whatsoever (and he knows it) and also no idea about any of the scholarly research and publications.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:37 pm

The only thing about Dr. Terry's numbers I think need adjusting is Chelmno, I think it is too low.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:07 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:The only thing about Dr. Terry's numbers I think need adjusting is Chelmno, I think it is too low.

Yeah, similar to Majdanek. Hilberg's 50,000 vs Kranz's more recent research giving 59,000, But if I read it correctly, he said it was an older list and now needed some more work?

nickterry wrote:...my own (provisional) calculation of 5.3 million, which I originally worked out at Axis History Forum a decade ago. The breakdown is posted below.

Since then I would say...




Edit: Added the Majdanek numbers.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:16 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:The only thing about Dr. Terry's numbers I think need adjusting is Chelmno, I think it is too low.

If I read it correctly, he said it was an older list and now needed some more work?

nickterry wrote:...my own (provisional) calculation of 5.3 million, which I originally worked out at Axis History Forum a decade ago. The breakdown is posted below.

Since then I would say...


It was a break down by country... Not a break down by camp.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:30 pm

Denying-History wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:The only thing about Dr. Terry's numbers I think need adjusting is Chelmno, I think it is too low.

If I read it correctly, he said it was an older list and now needed some more work?

nickterry wrote:...my own (provisional) calculation of 5.3 million, which I originally worked out at Axis History Forum a decade ago. The breakdown is posted below.

Since then I would say...


It was a break down by country... Not a break down by camp.

Well, some of it is:
nickterry wrote:Gassing 1941-44 c. 2.683 million
-Auschwitz 1942-1944 1 million Zyklon-B in 5 crematoria, 2 ‘bunkers’
-Treblinka 1942-1943 780,000 10 petrol exhaust gas chambers
-Belzec 1942 434,000 6 petrol exhaust gas chambers
-Sobibor 1942-3 200,000 6 petrol exhaust gas chambers
-Chelmno 1941-2, 1944 152,000 3 petrol exhaust gas vans
-Majdanek 1942-44 50,000 1 Zyklon B gas chamber, mass shootings
-Maly Trostinets, Minsk 1942 50,000 2-3 petrol exhaust gas vans
-Semlin, Belgrade 1942 17,000 2 petrol exhaust gas vans



I also edited my last post, adding the newer number by Kranz of 59,000 for Majdanek.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby nickterry » Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:18 pm

Unless you've read Montague's book and understand the sources he uses to produce his calculation, you shouldn't uncritically accept the higher number.

Deportations to Chelmno are recorded statistically by Nazi documents in many cases, especially the deportations out of the Lodz ghetto. We also have hard numbers from documents for some provincial towns in the Warthegau. But for other towns we have rougher estimates. On the other hand, we have the Korherr figure of 145,000. This likely excluded the up to 5000 gypsies deported to Chelmno.

Compared to Montague's checksum of documents and estimates, applying the documented Korherr figure acknowledges the tendency of witnesses and underground observers not privy to the exact numbers counted by the Nazis to overestimate ever so slightly by rounding up; instead of knowing it was 1,815 deportees, they say 2000, that sort of thing. The same recalibration can be done with the Hoefle telegram figures versus the additions of different estimates for deportations to Belzec and so on.

From mid-September 1942 onwards there were essentially no transports to Chelmno until 1944; a few small groups from forced labour camps is all that seems likely; there was a transport from the Lodz ghetto in early 1943 that essentially vanishes, most likely into Auschwitz, because the clean-up at Chelmno was fairly well advanced and there's really no corroboration from there that this transport went to Chelmno. The 1944 deportations are known precisely with again, 1-2 minuscule final contingents.

Therefore 152,000 is the hard-documented number of victims who were Jewish; anything higher is fuzzy at best and not really very reliable since the difference comes from reports by eyewitnesses, who tend as mentioned to round up.

Montague himself acknowledges this point, so he'd likely not be hung up on people apparently rejecting an increase of 10,000 over the number accepted by the Bonn court in the Chelmno trial, based on adding the 1942 and 1944 statistics. Besides, the actual death toll for all victims including the Roma and Sinti is close to 157,000.

Also worth noting: shootings during deportation operations in the summer of 1942 across the Warthegau were somewhat more numerous than you might think; added together several thousand Jews were simply shot on the spot where they lived. This is a recurring phenomenon across Poland, with eastern Galicia occupying a virtual halfway house between west and east over the course of 1941 to 1943: about half deported to Belzec; half shot.

More Polish Jews living in the annexed territories and Government-General were killed in mass shootings than died in either Chelmno or Sobibor.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:37 pm

nickterry wrote:Unless you've read Montague's book and understand the sources he uses to produce his calculation, you shouldn't uncritically accept the higher number.

Deportations to Chelmno are recorded statistically by Nazi documents in many cases, especially the deportations out of the Lodz ghetto. We also have hard numbers from documents for some provincial towns in the Warthegau. But for other towns we have rougher estimates. On the other hand, we have the Korherr figure of 145,000. This likely excluded the up to 5000 gypsies deported to Chelmno.

Compared to Montague's checksum of documents and estimates, applying the documented Korherr figure acknowledges the tendency of witnesses and underground observers not privy to the exact numbers counted by the Nazis to overestimate ever so slightly by rounding up; instead of knowing it was 1,815 deportees, they say 2000, that sort of thing. The same recalibration can be done with the Hoefle telegram figures versus the additions of different estimates for deportations to Belzec and so on.

From mid-September 1942 onwards there were essentially no transports to Chelmno until 1944; a few small groups from forced labour camps is all that seems likely; there was a transport from the Lodz ghetto in early 1943 that essentially vanishes, most likely into Auschwitz, because the clean-up at Chelmno was fairly well advanced and there's really no corroboration from there that this transport went to Chelmno. The 1944 deportations are known precisely with again, 1-2 minuscule final contingents.

Therefore 152,000 is the hard-documented number of victims who were Jewish; anything higher is fuzzy at best and not really very reliable since the difference comes from reports by eyewitnesses, who tend as mentioned to round up.

Montague himself acknowledges this point, so he'd likely not be hung up on people apparently rejecting an increase of 10,000 over the number accepted by the Bonn court in the Chelmno trial, based on adding the 1942 and 1944 statistics. Besides, the actual death toll for all victims including the Roma and Sinti is close to 157,000.

Also worth noting: shootings during deportation operations in the summer of 1942 across the Warthegau were somewhat more numerous than you might think; added together several thousand Jews were simply shot on the spot where they lived. This is a recurring phenomenon across Poland, with eastern Galicia occupying a virtual halfway house between west and east over the course of 1941 to 1943: about half deported to Belzec; half shot.

More Polish Jews living in the annexed territories and Government-General were killed in mass shootings than died in either Chelmno or Sobibor.


I understand that Koeher's Report gives a hard number, I also understand where the Western Germans got their number of 152,000.
One thing I did not consider is the inclusion of Roma and Sinti in the transports so I can see where the difference in the numbers exist.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby RizoliTV » Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:41 pm

nickterry wrote:Unless you've read Montague's book and understand the sources he uses to produce his calculation, you shouldn't uncritically accept the higher number.

Deportations to Chelmno are recorded statistically by Nazi documents in many cases, especially the deportations out of the Lodz ghetto. We also have hard numbers from documents for some provincial towns in the Warthegau. But for other towns we have rougher estimates. On the other hand, we have the Korherr figure of 145,000. This likely excluded the up to 5000 gypsies deported to Chelmno.

Compared to Montague's checksum of documents and estimates, applying the documented Korherr figure acknowledges the tendency of witnesses and underground observers not privy to the exact numbers counted by the Nazis to overestimate ever so slightly by rounding up; instead of knowing it was 1,815 deportees, they say 2000, that sort of thing. The same recalibration can be done with the Hoefle telegram figures versus the additions of different estimates for deportations to Belzec and so on.

From mid-September 1942 onwards there were essentially no transports to Chelmno until 1944; a few small groups from forced labour camps is all that seems likely; there was a transport from the Lodz ghetto in early 1943 that essentially vanishes, most likely into Auschwitz, because the clean-up at Chelmno was fairly well advanced and there's really no corroboration from there that this transport went to Chelmno. The 1944 deportations are known precisely with again, 1-2 minuscule final contingents.

Therefore 152,000 is the hard-documented number of victims who were Jewish; anything higher is fuzzy at best and not really very reliable since the difference comes from reports by eyewitnesses, who tend as mentioned to round up.

Montague himself acknowledges this point, so he'd likely not be hung up on people apparently rejecting an increase of 10,000 over the number accepted by the Bonn court in the Chelmno trial, based on adding the 1942 and 1944 statistics. Besides, the actual death toll for all victims including the Roma and Sinti is close to 157,000.

Also worth noting: shootings during deportation operations in the summer of 1942 across the Warthegau were somewhat more numerous than you might think; added together several thousand Jews were simply shot on the spot where they lived. This is a recurring phenomenon across Poland, with eastern Galicia occupying a virtual halfway house between west and east over the course of 1941 to 1943: about half deported to Belzec; half shot.

More Polish Jews living in the annexed territories and Government-General were killed in mass shootings than died in either Chelmno or Sobibor.


The mass shootings have been highly exaggerated by a factor of at least ten.
But what they hell, you Skeptoids can say 1 billion and the gullible goyim could care less, they will believe anything coming from the Exterminationist side of things.
More Jews that died mean more reparation money......It all has to do with the magic 6 million.
Anything lower and the Jews get all upset....their religion is focused on death and horror because that is what they themselves bring to the table just ask the Palestinians.

JR

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:04 pm

:hmm: ...he's pretty much confessed he's spamming krap...

RizoliTV wrote:...I could care less if you respond as long as their is a record of what I say that's all that counts...
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27092&p=527721#p527676
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby nickterry » Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:33 pm

RizoliTV wrote:More Jews that died mean more reparation money......


Nope. More Jews that survived means more compensation money, since only survivors of Nazi concentration camps, forced labour camps and ghettos can claim compensation. Relatives of dead victims cannot claim compensation from Germany.

A declining number get compensation anyway, due to natural causes diminishing this cohort.

1 December 2000 - 89,070 in receipt of pensions
1 December 2005 - 64,020 in receipt of pensions
1 December 2011 - 39,891 in receipt of pensions
1 December 2014 - 28,607 in receipt of pensions
2015 - 25,500 in receipt of pensions

Figures include non-Jewish victims (Roma and Sinti, victims of Nazi forced sterilisation, etc) as well. They are from various brochures published on German government websites over the past decade.

Overviews:
http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/DE/Ausse ... _node.html
http://www.zeit.de/2015/04/ns-opfer-ent ... ettansicht

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:54 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:The only thing about Dr. Terry's numbers I think need adjusting is Chelmno, I think it is too low.

If I read it correctly, he said it was an older list and now needed some more work?

nickterry wrote:...my own (provisional) calculation of 5.3 million, which I originally worked out at Axis History Forum a decade ago. The breakdown is posted below.

Since then I would say...


It was a break down by country... Not a break down by camp.

Well, some of it is:
nickterry wrote:Gassing 1941-44 c. 2.683 million
-Auschwitz 1942-1944 1 million Zyklon-B in 5 crematoria, 2 ‘bunkers’
-Treblinka 1942-1943 780,000 10 petrol exhaust gas chambers
-Belzec 1942 434,000 6 petrol exhaust gas chambers
-Sobibor 1942-3 200,000 6 petrol exhaust gas chambers
-Chelmno 1941-2, 1944 152,000 3 petrol exhaust gas vans
-Majdanek 1942-44 50,000 1 Zyklon B gas chamber, mass shootings
-Maly Trostinets, Minsk 1942 50,000 2-3 petrol exhaust gas vans
-Semlin, Belgrade 1942 17,000 2 petrol exhaust gas vans



I also edited my last post, adding the newer number by Kranz of 59,000 for Majdanek.


Ah, I thought we were talking about hi Axis History estimate. :) The estimate there is completely by country. That is considering the quote form terry was:

nickterry wrote:...my own (provisional) calculation of 5.3 million, which I originally worked out at Axis History Forum a decade ago. The breakdown is posted below.

Since then I would say...


If you look at the Axis History page its all by country.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby nickterry » Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:59 pm

Yes, but what I posted wasn't, because I said I'd originally worked it out at AHF, not that what I posted was identical to the calculation at AHF.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:07 pm

RizoliTV wrote:
nickterry wrote:Unless you've read Montague's book and understand the sources he uses to produce his calculation, you shouldn't uncritically accept the higher number.

Deportations to Chelmno are recorded statistically by Nazi documents in many cases, especially the deportations out of the Lodz ghetto. We also have hard numbers from documents for some provincial towns in the Warthegau. But for other towns we have rougher estimates. On the other hand, we have the Korherr figure of 145,000. This likely excluded the up to 5000 gypsies deported to Chelmno.

Compared to Montague's checksum of documents and estimates, applying the documented Korherr figure acknowledges the tendency of witnesses and underground observers not privy to the exact numbers counted by the Nazis to overestimate ever so slightly by rounding up; instead of knowing it was 1,815 deportees, they say 2000, that sort of thing. The same recalibration can be done with the Hoefle telegram figures versus the additions of different estimates for deportations to Belzec and so on.

From mid-September 1942 onwards there were essentially no transports to Chelmno until 1944; a few small groups from forced labour camps is all that seems likely; there was a transport from the Lodz ghetto in early 1943 that essentially vanishes, most likely into Auschwitz, because the clean-up at Chelmno was fairly well advanced and there's really no corroboration from there that this transport went to Chelmno. The 1944 deportations are known precisely with again, 1-2 minuscule final contingents.

Therefore 152,000 is the hard-documented number of victims who were Jewish; anything higher is fuzzy at best and not really very reliable since the difference comes from reports by eyewitnesses, who tend as mentioned to round up.

Montague himself acknowledges this point, so he'd likely not be hung up on people apparently rejecting an increase of 10,000 over the number accepted by the Bonn court in the Chelmno trial, based on adding the 1942 and 1944 statistics. Besides, the actual death toll for all victims including the Roma and Sinti is close to 157,000.

Also worth noting: shootings during deportation operations in the summer of 1942 across the Warthegau were somewhat more numerous than you might think; added together several thousand Jews were simply shot on the spot where they lived. This is a recurring phenomenon across Poland, with eastern Galicia occupying a virtual halfway house between west and east over the course of 1941 to 1943: about half deported to Belzec; half shot.

More Polish Jews living in the annexed territories and Government-General were killed in mass shootings than died in either Chelmno or Sobibor.


The mass shootings have been highly exaggerated by a factor of at least ten.
But what they hell, you Skeptoids can say 1 billion and the gullible goyim could care less, they will believe anything coming from the Exterminationist side of things.
More Jews that died mean more reparation money......It all has to do with the magic 6 million.
Anything lower and the Jews get all upset....their religion is focused on death and horror because that is what they themselves bring to the table just ask the Palestinians.

JR


Jim.... You are an idiot...

1) provide evidence that the numbers are exaggerated...

2) You take everything that leuchter says as fact without questioning it... even when it doesn't even support you claim... So, who exactly here is following something by blind faith?

3) The Germans pay based on number of survivors whom are alive. Not the figure of them being killed.

4) Is that why some Historians have dropped their number down to 4.2 million Jews killed in the holocaust?

5) No where in any of the Jewish religious texts does it give any reference to the Palestinians.... The Palestinians are a rather new ethnicity... It actually start forming with the fall of the ottoman empire. As well a large number of the Palestinians are from groups who moved to Palestine after the Jewish immigrants cultivated a good portion of the land. You should read Joan Peters book on the conflict. Ether way Jim you still haven't proven much here ether... You would have to prove the Jews caused the holocaust to found Israel...
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:14 pm

nickterry wrote:Yes, but what I posted wasn't, because I said I'd originally worked it out at AHF, not that what I posted was identical to the calculation at AHF.


Didn't think it was identical. Thanks for the clarification though.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby RizoliTV » Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:45 pm

LOL quote.....
Jim.... You are an idiot...

1) provide evidence that the numbers are exaggerated...

2) You take everything that leuchter says as fact without questioning it... even when it doesn't even support you claim... So, who exactly here is following something by blind faith?

3) The Germans pay based on number of survivors whom are alive. Not the figure of them being killed.

4) Is that why some Historians have dropped their number down to 4.2 million Jews killed in the holocaust?

5) No where in any of the Jewish religious texts does it give any reference to the Palestinians.... The Palestinians are a rather new ethnicity... It actually start forming with the fall of the ottoman empire. As well a large number of the Palestinians are from groups who moved to Palestine after the Jewish immigrants cultivated a good portion of the land. You should read Joan Peters book on the conflict. Ether way Jim you still haven't proven much here ether... You would have to prove the Jews caused the holocaust to found Israel...

Thanks, Denying-History from:


3) The Germans pay based on number of survivors whom are alive. Not the figure of them being killed.

JR here..........
Yes, and there are approx 4 million survivors over time who signed up to fleece the flock.
The six million is just to twist the Govts arm.
As the story goes.....Six million plus Jews died in fake gas chambers with ZB bug spray.....seems logical to me....LOL

JR

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:52 pm

What only you call "logic" is why only you keep promulgating that story and no one else does. Nor calls whatever is going on in your head "logic".
.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:07 am

RizoliTV wrote:LOL quote.....
Jim.... You are an idiot...

1) provide evidence that the numbers are exaggerated...

2) You take everything that leuchter says as fact without questioning it... even when it doesn't even support you claim... So, who exactly here is following something by blind faith?

3) The Germans pay based on number of survivors whom are alive. Not the figure of them being killed.

4) Is that why some Historians have dropped their number down to 4.2 million Jews killed in the holocaust?

5) No where in any of the Jewish religious texts does it give any reference to the Palestinians.... The Palestinians are a rather new ethnicity... It actually start forming with the fall of the ottoman empire. As well a large number of the Palestinians are from groups who moved to Palestine after the Jewish immigrants cultivated a good portion of the land. You should read Joan Peters book on the conflict. Ether way Jim you still haven't proven much here ether... You would have to prove the Jews caused the holocaust to found Israel...

Thanks, Denying-History from:


3) The Germans pay based on number of survivors whom are alive. Not the figure of them being killed.

JR here..........
Yes, and there are approx 4 million survivors over time who signed up to fleece the flock.
The six million is just to twist the Govts arm.
As the story goes.....Six million plus Jews died in fake gas chambers with ZB bug spray.....seems logical to me....LOL

JR


Nick explained this Jim

nickterry wrote:
RizoliTV wrote:More Jews that died mean more reparation money......


Nope. More Jews that survived means more compensation money, since only survivors of Nazi concentration camps, forced labour camps and ghettos can claim compensation. Relatives of dead victims cannot claim compensation from Germany.

A declining number get compensation anyway, due to natural causes diminishing this cohort.

1 December 2000 - 89,070 in receipt of pensions
1 December 2005 - 64,020 in receipt of pensions
1 December 2011 - 39,891 in receipt of pensions
1 December 2014 - 28,607 in receipt of pensions
2015 - 25,500 in receipt of pensions

Figures include non-Jewish victims (Roma and Sinti, victims of Nazi forced sterilisation, etc) as well. They are from various brochures published on German government websites over the past decade.

Overviews:
http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/DE/Ausse ... _node.html
http://www.zeit.de/2015/04/ns-opfer-ent ... ettansicht


You have proven idiotic as always... Jews were not the only group that signed the listing to be considered non-jews.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:33 am

RizoliTV wrote:
JR here..........
Yes, and there are approx 4 million survivors over time who signed up to fleece the flock.
The six million is just to twist the Govts arm.
As the story goes.....Six million plus Jews died in fake gas chambers with ZB bug spray.....seems logical to me....LOL

JR


Jim, I need you to provide proof of this "4 million survivors."
I'd like to know their ethnic composition, were these Jews, Roma/Sinti, Poles, etc.
I'd also like to know the numbers per year.....or by decade, if this easier.

Also, you simply show how idiotic you are when you say "6 million died in fake gas chambers with ZB bug spray." No one.....not even the goofiest denier I know, ever said that. Oh, wait, you are the goofiest denier I know. Well, not even Hermie or Gasan ever said that.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:00 am

The major issue for Jim and his 4 million Jewish survivors is that there wasn't even 4 million Jews in Europe after the war... Here is Hilburgs demographic estimates. The photos are taken from Nora Levin's book.

The Destruction of European Jewry.

Image

Image
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