Number of Jewish Dead

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Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:58 am

So, I don't know if this has been discussed, it probably has been but I don't see it any of the recent threads. I've seen this in bits and pieces but I wanted a thread to give us something to look at and discuss.

I also thought it would be great to post something to get us back on track that it isn't from Jim Rizoli. We've spent a lot of time fooling around with him and frankly I'm kinda over it.

I wanted to discuss the numbers of Jewish dead. Deniers obsess over "6 million," the reality is the numbers differ wildly depending on the source.

First, let's look at how the United States Holocaust Museum breaks down the deaths:

Auschwitz complex (including Birkenau, Monowitz, and subcamps): approximately 1 million

Treblinka 2: approximately 925,000

Belzec: 434,508

Sobibor: at least 167,000

Chelmno: 156,000–172,000

Shooting operations at various locations in central and southern German-occupied Poland (the so-called Government General): at least 200,000

Shooting operations in German-annexed western Poland (District Wartheland): at least 20,000

Deaths in other facilities that the Germans designated as concentration camps: at least 150,000

Shooting operations and gas wagons at hundreds of locations in the German-occupied Soviet Union: at least 1.3 million

Shooting operations in the Soviet Union (German, Austrian, Czech Jews deported to the Soviet Union): approximately 55,000

Shooting operations and gas wagons in Serbia: at least 15,088

Shot or tortured to death in Croatia under the Ustaša regime: 23,000–25,000

Deaths in ghettos: at least 800,000

Other*: at least 500,000

*"Other" includes, for example, persons killed in shooting operations in Poland in 1939–1940; as partisans in Yugoslavia, Greece, Italy, France or Belgium; in labor battalions in Hungary; during antisemitic actions in Germany and Austria before the war; by the Iron Guard in Romania, 1940–1941; and on evacuation marches from concentration camps and labor camps in the last six months of World War II. It also includes people caught in hiding and killed in Poland, Serbia, and elsewhere in German-occupied Europe.

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/mobile/en/art ... d=10008193

Their number equals 5,762,596.

This source from the Jewish Virtual Library lists 5,933,900, basing it upon demographics:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... table.html

It breaks down by country, not by method.

Hilberg gave a number of 5.1 million, Reitlinger 4.8 million, Timothy Snyder about 5.5 million.

I think the 5.9 million is too high, it breaks down by country and not by method, so it may include Jews that escaped and not documented as such.

My own inclination is a number close to 5.5 million, broken down by the number of Jews that died in the extermination camps (2.5 million) those that died from mass execution over pits (about 1.3 million) with the rest dying in other camps, starvation, disease, maltreatment and those that died on death marches.

Now, I've seen other numbers posted here, some much lower.

I'd like to know what the opinion is on the numbers and how you got there.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:26 pm

Just as a follow up, Patrick Montague, the author of Chelmno and the Holocaust, puts the number of dead at Chelmno at 162,000. This is based on a list of transports.

The 152,000 is based upon the Koehrer Report.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:32 pm

I am almost done with my concentration camp numbers if that helps... I will post them here later, at the moment I am working on Auschwitz... After that I should have Maly Trostenets... Which I may have to use the middle man of Yad Vashems estimate which would be 62,500 people... As the Soviet's exaggerated the numbers don't really help.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:30 am

===============================================================================

Auschwitz

960,000 Jews out of 1,095,000 Jews in total.

(This is not a personal estimate, mind this may be changed in the future if more precise estimate is found)

===============================================================================

Treblinka

1942 Total 713,555 victims

1943 Total 67,308 victims

Total for 42 and 43 - (Number of survivors + Non-Jews) = Death Total

780,863 - (70 + 2000) = 778,793 Jews killed at Treblinka.

===============================================================================

Bełżec

434,508 - 2 (Survivors) = 434,506 Jews

===============================================================================

Sobibor

1942 Total 101,370 Jews

1943 Total 68,795 Jews

Total for 42 and 43 - (Number of survivors + Non-Jews) = Death Total

170,165 - (47 + 1000) = 169,118 Jews

===============================================================================

Chelmno

December 8, 1941 – April 11, 1943 Total
(1941 deportations + Korherrs report)
5,575 + 145,301 = 150,876

June 23, 1944 – January 18, 1945 Total 25,000

Total for 41-43 and 44-45 - (Number of survivors + Non-Jews) = Death Total

175,876 - (4 + 4,300) = 171,572 Jews

===============================================================================

Majdanek

78,000 total according to Kranz 19,000 Non-Jews are in this number.

78,000 - 19,000 = 59,000 Jews.

===============================================================================

Maly Trostenets

65,000 Total (Number unknown) No Survivors.

(No statistics of non-jews but one non jew is known to have been killed in this camp. His name is Vincent Hadleŭski.)

Best estimate is the middle man of 60,000 to 65,000 making a total number of 62,500 Jews.

===============================================================================

Jasenovac

According to the memorial museum 13,116 Jews were killed in Jasenovac.

===============================================================================

Grand Total: 2,648,655 Jews in total in all 8 death camps

===============================================================================

Einsatzgruppen

Of 2 million plus people killed 1.3 million of them were Jews according to Hillburg.

(May be updated if I ever finish the listing for each site.)

===============================================================================

Ghettos

800,000 Jews According to USHMM.

(May be Altered)

===============================================================================

Mass Murder in the Balkans

Serbia + (Croatian mean - Jasenovic victims)
15,088 + (24,000 - 13,116)

25,972 Jews in the Balkans.

===============================================================================

Other Camps

150,000 Jews according to USHMM.

===============================================================================

Over all this would be 4,924,627 Jews murders on a minimum... Depending on if the sources I have above are accurate.

Sources:

Auschwitz: USHMM

Treblinka:

1942: Höfle Telegram

1943: Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin
The source of the Treblinka count is Witte, Peter, "A new document", 472, in: Holocaust and Genocide Studies 15,3 (Oxford 2001), which provides the German's count of 713,555 for 1942 (per radiogram intercepted by the British); and Młynarczyk, Jacek Andrzej, "Treblinka – ein Todeslager der 'Aktion Reinhard", 281, in: Bogdan Musial (ed.), Aktion Reinhard – Die Vernichtung der Juden im Generalgouvernement (Osnabrück 2004), 257–281, which supplies the 1943 reconing of 67,308 victims.

Number of survivors
Of the approximately 750 prisoners who tried to escape only 70 survived the war. The prisoners who did not take part in the rebellion were forced to dismantle the camp and then they were shot.


Bełżec: Höfle Telegram

Number of Survivors: Inside The Nazi War Machine - Inside the Holocaust

Sobibor: Höfle Telegram

1943 estimate Jules Schelvis.

Netherlands 34.313
France 3.500
Sovjet Union (Lida, Minsk en Vilnius) 13.700
Yugoslavia(Skopje) 2.382
Poland (various towns) 14.900


Chelmno: 1941 estimate based on figures provided by Jeffk

1942 estimates

1944 to 1945 estimate Nazi Concentration Camp Commandants 1933-1944 Page 67

Majdanek: Tamas Kranz 2005 estimate.

Maly Trostenets: Yad Vashem and 'other historians' estimates.

Yad Vashem and other historians estimate the number of victims at 60,000–65,000 Jews.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maly_Trostenets_extermination_camp

Jasenovac: Memorial site estimate

Einsatzgruppen:

Hilberg estimates that between 1941 and 1945 the Einsatzgruppen and related agencies killed more than two million people, including 1.3 million Jews. The total number of Jews murdered during the war is estimated at 5.5 to six million people


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen

Ghetto: USHMM

Murder in Balkans: USHMM.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:44 am

Denying-History wrote:===============================================================================

Auschwitz

1,352,980 Jews out of 1,433,405 Jews in total.

114,939 Others out of 176,785 Total

1471,595 In all out of 1,613,455 total

(This is not a personal estimate, Source will be provided)

===============================================================================

Treblinka

1942 Total 713,555 victims

1943 Total 67,308 victims

Total for 42 and 43 - (Number of survivors + Non-Jews) = Death Total

780,863 - (70 + 2000) = 778,793 Jews killed at Treblinka.

===============================================================================

Bełżec

434,508 - 2 (Survivors) = 434,506 Jews

===============================================================================

Sobibor

1942 Total 101,370 Jews

1943 Total 68,795 Jews

Total for 42 and 43 - (Number of survivors + Non-Jews) = Death Total

170,165 - (47 + 1000) = 169,118 Jews

===============================================================================

Chelmno

December 8, 1941 – April 11, 1943 Total 145,301

June 23, 1944 – January 18, 1945 Total 25,000

Total for 41-43 and 44-45 - (Number of survivors + Non-Jews) = Death Total

170,301 - (4 + 4,300) = 165,997 Jews

===============================================================================

Majdanek

78,000 total according to Kranz 19,000 Non-Jews are in this number.

78,000 - 19,000 = 59,000 Jews.

===============================================================================

Maly Trostenets

65,000 Total (Number unknown) No Survivors.

(No statistics of non-jews but one non jew is known to have been killed in this camp. His name is Vincent Hadleŭski.)

Best estimate is the middle man of 60,000 to 65,000 making a total number of 62,500 Jews.

===============================================================================

Jasenovac

According to the memorial museum 13,116 Jews were killed in Jasenovac.

===============================================================================

Total: 3,036,010 Jews in total in all 8 death camps

===============================================================================

Sources:

Auschwitz: AUSCHWITZ: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers

Treblinka:

1942: Höfle Telegram

1943: Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin
The source of the Treblinka count is Witte, Peter, "A new document", 472, in: Holocaust and Genocide Studies 15,3 (Oxford 2001), which provides the German's count of 713,555 for 1942 (per radiogram intercepted by the British); and Młynarczyk, Jacek Andrzej, "Treblinka – ein Todeslager der 'Aktion Reinhard", 281, in: Bogdan Musial (ed.), Aktion Reinhard – Die Vernichtung der Juden im Generalgouvernement (Osnabrück 2004), 257–281, which supplies the 1943 reconing of 67,308 victims.

Number of survivors
Of the approximately 750 prisoners who tried to escape only 70 survived the war. The prisoners who did not take part in the rebellion were forced to dismantle the camp and then they were shot.


Bełżec: Höfle Telegram

Number of Survivors: Inside The Nazi War Machine - Inside the Holocaust

Sobibor: Höfle Telegram

1943 estimate Jules Schelvis.

Netherlands 34.313
France 3.500
Sovjet Union (Lida, Minsk en Vilnius) 13.700
Yugoslavia(Skopje) 2.382
Poland (various towns) 14.900


Chelmno: 1942 estimates

1943 Estimate from "Remembering Chelmno" by Golden, Juliet.

Majdanek: Tamas Kranz 2005 estimate.

Maly Trostenets: Yad Vashem and 'other historians' estimates.

Yad Vashem and other historians estimate the number of victims at 60,000–65,000 Jews.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maly_Trostenets_extermination_camp

Jasenovac: Memorial site estimate[/quote

That's impressive, thank you.

I'm going to look around and see what other numbers we are looking at.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:49 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:That's impressive, thank you.

I'm going to look around and see what other numbers we are looking at.


I just realized I never posted my source for the 47 survivors. Jules Schelvis gave this estimate in his book Vernietigingskamp Sobibor.

Also it wasn't to hard, as these are the most exact numbers I could find... I will try and create a breakdown of the Mobile death squads later, but it will take quite a bit of time.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Balsamo » Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:13 pm

Denying History,

the estimate you give for Birkenau is from Georges Wellers, not from Pressac. Wellers numbers are too high. Hilberg has them 25% lower, Pressac 50%...

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:44 pm

Piper has 1.1 million for Birkenau (approx. 960,000 Jewish) and Treblinka and Chelmno seem a bit low?
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:20 pm

Balsamo wrote:Denying History,

the estimate you give for Birkenau is from Georges Wellers, not from Pressac. Wellers numbers are too high. Hilberg has them 25% lower, Pressac 50%...


I am well aware its from Georges Wellers... His estimate is in the first few pages of Technique and Operation.. Pressacs estimate of 600,000 to 700,000 is way to low. Hilberg did note that Pressac is "not really an historian ... and some of his interpretations could turn out to be erroneous". I just linked Pressacs book because that is where I had found it.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:24 pm

for me

Auschwitz: 900,000

Treblinka: 790,000

Belzec: 435,000

Sobibor: 179,000

Einsatzgruppen and other mass shootings: 1.2 million

Romanian mass shootings: 500,000

Died in ghettos, in KL's or in transit: 650,000

Chemno: 172,000

MT: 60,000

4.8 million

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:30 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Piper has 1.1 million for Birkenau (approx. 960,000 Jewish) and Treblinka and Chelmno seem a bit low?


The source I found for chelmno's 2nd period of operation gave the number 25,000.... I wouldn't say that Chelmno is to low... As generally the estimates stand between 152,000–340,000 people killed.

As for Treblinka.... I don't really think its to low. It seems within the limits of most historians estimates as well.

Robin O’Neil says 700,000–900,000

Michael Berenbaum from his Encyclopædia Britannica entry said at least 750,000.

Zdzisław Łukaszkiewicz back in 1947 estimated the number 780,000.

Jacek Andrzej Młynarczyk estimated the exact same number 780,863

All this aside though Yitzhak Arad does say 850,000 so it could be to low. I think the estimate is well within reason. I will try and fix Auschwitz at a later point in time.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:51 pm

Maybe the latest estimates should be used? Here's a post by StatMech giving some numbers re Treblinka. As usual, it's quite substantial.

Two more from your earlier discussions with him: one regarding Chelmno and another Auschwitz.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:34 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Maybe the latest estimates should be used? Here's a post by StatMech giving some numbers re Treblinka. As usual, it's quite substantial.


Stat's estimate is almost identical to mine... In total 790,863 people were sent to Treblinka according to him and Roberto... According to him 788,863 were Jews... I only added the number of known survivors which is 70 people according to holocaustsurvivors.org ... If I am correct the Museum says it was 900,000 people killed in total. I would put the estimate that I got as rather accurate. Jeff_36 even places his number at 790,000 which is a difference of about 11,000.

scrmbldggs wrote:Two more from your earlier discussions with him: one regarding Chelmno and another Auschwitz.


As for Chelmno... My numbers seems accurate. In total I got 170,301... According to SM, Montague says a total of 172,230. I got 165,997 Jews and Montague got 168,000 Jews.... These estimates seem really close... There is really only a difference of a few thousand people and it doesn't appear to be a huge deal.

Though I might estimate my auschwitz estimate for the numbers SM provided
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:56 pm

Yeah, close is good, but as close as possible is better. We have to be careful with those numbers we put out and not overlook the latest scholarship.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby RizoliTV » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:21 pm

Glad you brought it up.....
How about those that have lied about the numbers....
Kurt Gerstein Said originally (until people finally woke up), 40 million people die, when that didn't fly he said 25 million, then it went down to 6 million. Must of just been kidding right? Just like when he said there were 120 high piles of clothing in Treblinka to go along with the 75 ft pile high of shoes. Didn't have his spectacles on that day....
Olga Lengyel writer of the fiction book Five Chimneys, said In Auschwitz the ovens cremated no less than 720 people per hr, or 17,280 per 24 hr shift....Then she claimed that 24,000 corpses were handled every day.
Of course Jew Historian Reitlinger (The Final Solution) admitted only 363,000 were registered at Auschwitz, from 1940-1945... whhoops! Did he really say that?

Of course Poster Boy Rudof Hoess said 2.5 million were killed in Auschwitz and 500,000 by other means....
So that totals 3 million but of course he must of been on one of his crack binges that day because as we know now the official lie is around 1.5 million died there......going down everyday.

In Dachau they said 238,000 were killed now the official number is around 20,000.....a little off, as are all the numbers from all the other camps.....it's almost like the lies are 10x higher.
So I always say pick a number because the HoloHuxsters out there have lied all the way to the bank on this one.
Numbers sell books and movie rights.
As Norman Finklesteisn mother said, "if so many Jews survived than who died"?


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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:27 pm

True, looking over the most up to date scholarship is far from a good idea. The Chelmno estimate for the 2nd phase if from 2006 though... So I am not sure if that would be called modern scholarship.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:09 pm

You're not working off Montague?

StatMech wrote:Montague (2012) gives a figure of 4,300 Roma murdered at Chełmno (p 186), basically the same number. Montague's total for 1941-1943 is 165,034 and for 1944, 7,196, for total of 172,230 (just under 168,000 Jews).
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26769&p=511577#p510956
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:31 pm

No I am not using Montague. For the First Phase I am using Korherr the 2nd phase I am using M. Kaldow from Ian Baxter's book on page 67. Which reminds me I cited the wrong source... for the 25,000 figure.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:54 pm

Juliet Golden is from 2006 and estimated 200,000 people to 300,000 people killed at Chelmno.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:44 pm

...as long as it gets sorted out properly. :-P
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:58 pm

It will eventually be finished. I am still snooping around a bit.
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:38 am

You might want to add a note or edit the unclear portions out until it's corrected?
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:11 am

Denying-History wrote:Chelmno: 1942 estimates

1944 to 1945 estimate Nazi Concentration Camp Commandants 1933-1944 Page 67


Already fixed it under sources
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:05 am

This is the list of transports for Chelmno, per Montague:

1941 Dec. 7 Koło 700
Dec. 8 Koło 700
Dec. 9 Koło 700
Dec. 10 Koło 700
Dec. 11 Koło 700
Dec. 14 7 D ą bie 975
Dec. (second half) Dobra 1,100
1942 Jan. 2–9 Łód ź (Roma) 4,300
Jan. 10, 12 Kłodawa 1,000
Jan. 13 Bugaj 600
Jan. 14–15 Izbica Kujawska 1,000
Jan. 16–29 Łód ź 10,003
Feb. 2 Sompolno 1,000
Feb. 22–28 Łód ź 7,025
Mar. 1–31 Łód ź 24,699
Mar. 2 Kro ś niewice 900
Mar. 3 Ż ychlin 3,200
Mar. (first half) Ozorków 500
Mar. (second half) Podd ę bice 2,008
Mar. 26 8 Kutno 6,000
Apr. 1–2 Łód ź 2,349 9
Apr. 10 Grabów 1,240
Apr. 10–11 Ł ę czyca 1,750
Apr. 16–17 10 Gostynin 2,000
Apr. 16–17 11 G ą bin 2,150
Apr. 17 Sanniki 250
Apr. 22 Osi ę ciny 300
Apr. (mid-month) 12 Brze ś ć Kujawski < 200
13 Apr. (mid-month) Piotrków Kujawski < 550
Apr. 30–May 2 Włocławek 3,500
May 4–15 Łód ź 10,914
May 17–18 Pabianice 4,000
May 19–20 14 Brzeziny 3,000
May 22 15 Ozorków 300
June 10–11 Radziejów Kujawski 630
July 20 Czachulec 10,000
16 July (end) Lutomiersk 750
Aug. 11–13 17 Bełchatów 4,953
Aug. 14 Szadek 450
Aug. 22 Sieradz 1,400
Aug. 22–24 Warta 1,353
Aug. 24–28 Łask 2,600
18 Aug. 19 (last week) Wielu ń 10,000
Aug. 25–26 20 Zdu ń ska Wola ń 10,900
Sept. 1–2, 7–12 Łód ź 15,685
21 Sept. 14 22 Zelów 6,000

1944 June 23 Łód ź 562
June 26 Łód ź 912
June 28 Łód ź 803
June 30 Łód ź 700
July 3 Łód ź 700
July 5 Łód ź 709
July 7 Łód ź 700
July 10 Łód ź 700
July 12 Łód ź 700
July 14 Łód ź 700
Total for 1941–43: 165,034
Total for 1944: 7,196
Grand Total: 172,230

I made a mistake, I was thinking 165,034 was the total, Montague used the transports to come up with a total of 172,230.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:10 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:1941 Dec. 7 Koło 700
Dec. 8 Koło 700
Dec. 9 Koło 700
Dec. 10 Koło 700
Dec. 11 Koło 700
Dec. 14 7 D ą bie 975
Dec. (second half) Dobra 1,100


Alright I have to add 1,100 people for 1941 now :)
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:13 am

:scratch:
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:16 am

I'm going to look into transports for the Reinhard Camps.

I'm sure Van Pelt has more, I'll look into that too.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:17 am

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:1941 Dec. 7 Koło 700
Dec. 8 Koło 700
Dec. 9 Koło 700
Dec. 10 Koło 700
Dec. 11 Koło 700
Dec. 14 7 D ą bie 975
Dec. (second half) Dobra 1,100


Alright I have to add 1,100 people for 1941 now :)


I'm glad I could help, you guys did a lot of the heavy lifting!! :P

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:18 am

scrmbldggs wrote::scratch:


I didn't have the numbers for 1941. Only form Korherr.... and 1944 and 1945.
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:21 am

scrmbldggs wrote::scratch:


If you can get a chance, Patrick Montague's book on Chelmno is very good. The E-Book is fairly inexpensive.

If I could forward you copy I would.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:24 am

Denying-History wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote::scratch:


I didn't have the numbers for 1941. Only form Korherr.... and 1944 and 1945.

K, this is also confusing. :lol:

Which numbers? All of the 1941 numbers Jeff listed from Montague,
1941 Dec. 7 Koło 700
Dec. 8 Koło 700
Dec. 9 Koło 700
Dec. 10 Koło 700
Dec. 11 Koło 700
Dec. 14 7 D ą bie 975
Dec. (second half) Dobra 1,100

or only "Dec (second half)"?
.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:28 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote::scratch:


If you can get a chance, Patrick Montague's book on Chelmno is very good. The E-Book is fairly inexpensive.

If I could forward you copy I would.

Thanks. I haven't read it but knew it's good. The scholar spend quite some time on it. :-D
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:36 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote::scratch:


I didn't have the numbers for 1941. Only form Korherr.... and 1944 and 1945.

K, this is also confusing. :lol:

Which numbers? All of the 1941 numbers Jeff listed from Montague,
1941 Dec. 7 Koło 700
Dec. 8 Koło 700
Dec. 9 Koło 700
Dec. 10 Koło 700
Dec. 11 Koło 700
Dec. 14 7 D ą bie 975
Dec. (second half) Dobra 1,100

or only "Dec (second half)"?


Korherr only estimated 1942
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:45 am

RizoliTV wrote:Glad you brought it up.....
How about those that have lied about the numbers....
Kurt Gerstein Said originally (until people finally woke up), 40 million people die, when that didn't fly he said 25 million, then it went down to 6 million. Must of just been kidding right? Just like when he said there were 120 high piles of clothing in Treblinka to go along with the 75 ft pile high of shoes. Didn't have his spectacles on that day....
Olga Lengyel writer of the fiction book Five Chimneys, said In Auschwitz the ovens cremated no less than 720 people per hr, or 17,280 per 24 hr shift....Then she claimed that 24,000 corpses were handled every day.
Of course Jew Historian Reitlinger (The Final Solution) admitted only 363,000 were registered at Auschwitz, from 1940-1945... whhoops! Did he really say that?

Of course Poster Boy Rudof Hoess said 2.5 million were killed in Auschwitz and 500,000 by other means....
So that totals 3 million but of course he must of been on one of his crack binges that day because as we know now the official lie is around 1.5 million died there......going down everyday.

In Dachau they said 238,000 were killed now the official number is around 20,000.....a little off, as are all the numbers from all the other camps.....it's almost like the lies are 10x higher.
So I always say pick a number because the HoloHuxsters out there have lied all the way to the bank on this one.
Numbers sell books and movie rights.
As Norman Finklesteisn mother said, "if so many Jews survived than who died"?


JR



I told Jim not to post here, that he wouldn't have anything interesting or intelligent to say.

I was right.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:53 am

Denying-History wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote::scratch:


I didn't have the numbers for 1941. Only form Korherr.... and 1944 and 1945.

K, this is also confusing. :lol:

Which numbers? All of the 1941 numbers Jeff listed from Montague,
1941 Dec. 7 Koło 700
Dec. 8 Koło 700
Dec. 9 Koło 700
Dec. 10 Koło 700
Dec. 11 Koło 700
Dec. 14 7 D ą bie 975
Dec. (second half) Dobra 1,100

or only "Dec (second half)"?


Korherr only estimated 1942


Right. Then why only add 1,100 - or am I reading something wrong here?

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:1941 Dec. 7 Koło 700
Dec. 8 Koło 700
Dec. 9 Koło 700
Dec. 10 Koło 700
Dec. 11 Koło 700
Dec. 14 7 D ą bie 975
Dec. (second half) Dobra 1,100


Alright I have to add 1,100 people for 1941 now :)


If I'm confusing something here, please fill me in. :)
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:57 am

And maybe not mixing this up from various sources like this now would be better? BTW, who is "M. Kaldow" referenced by Mr Baxter?
.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:59 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote::scratch:


I didn't have the numbers for 1941. Only form Korherr.... and 1944 and 1945.

K, this is also confusing. :lol:

Which numbers? All of the 1941 numbers Jeff listed from Montague,
1941 Dec. 7 Koło 700
Dec. 8 Koło 700
Dec. 9 Koło 700
Dec. 10 Koło 700
Dec. 11 Koło 700
Dec. 14 7 D ą bie 975
Dec. (second half) Dobra 1,100

or only "Dec (second half)"?


Korherr only estimated 1942


Right. Then why only add 1,100 - or am I reading something wrong here?


No you caught a slip done by myself :lol: I for some damn reason took 1,100 for Decembers total.

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:1941 Dec. 7 Koło 700
Dec. 8 Koło 700
Dec. 9 Koło 700
Dec. 10 Koło 700
Dec. 11 Koło 700
Dec. 14 7 D ą bie 975
Dec. (second half) Dobra 1,100


Alright I have to add 1,100 people for 1941 now :)


If I'm confusing something here, please fill me in. :)


Nah you had it right.
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
- Lu Xun

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:14 am

Oh goodie. These last weeks haven't robbed me of what's left of my sanity. :lol:



It would probably have dawned on you when putting it all together. ;)
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby Denying-History » Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:37 am

I'm well aware Rizoli is a pain in the ass. I most likely would have missed it for a little bit. Anyway I believe that we found the missing 2,000 Jews. :)

I think I am going to take up the USHMM's number for Auschwits... It appears the most accurate.

Also an update on the Einzatgrouppen it's about 10% done.
« Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood. »
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Re: Number of Jewish Dead

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:55 am

USHMM and Piper - good choice, imho.
.

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