Elie Wiesel

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
Srebrenica
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Re: Elie Wiesel

Postby Srebrenica » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:07 pm

VFX wrote:
montgomery wrote:VFX, in the absence of any rational rebuttal I'm inclined to accept your evidence as the facts of the issue you addressed. In fairness, I would have to do the same for Nessie. Sadly, some of the others can't accept that their bad manners aren't going to work anymore.

Indeed Monty, the issue is important to post at RODOH, where there will be some reflection and deep thought from people who really are interested in "real" history. As I am not biased it is not personal to me if Wiesel is a Weasel, Stoat , Ferret or what other identity it might assume. As there is no evidence to suggest that the Auschwitz inmates claims of identity theft is not credible, then the assertion that this man makes must be given the weighting it deserves. One must look at this other mans claims in more detail and weigh up why he might make up false allegations.
In the interim, the claim that Elie Wiesel is an impostor stands.


Guys/Girls please can you stop with the mutual masturbation and deal with some facts for a change. This is one person's word against another. Did Wiesel have a tattoo? - I don't know. Did he assume another persons identity? - I don't care. If Wiesel was a liar, does it disprove the Holocaust? - No. Want a debate on the Einsatzgruppen? - go for it :-)

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Re: Elie Wiesel

Postby VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:23 pm

Srebrenica wrote:
Guys/Girls please can you stop with the mutual masturbation and deal with some facts for a change. This is one person's word against another. Did Wiesel have a tattoo? - I don't know. Did he assume another persons identity? - I don't care. If Wiesel was a liar, does it disprove the Holocaust? - No. Want a debate on the Einsatzgruppen? - go for it :-)

There is a thread on the Einsatzgruppen. https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25822

It is a denunciation of Wiesels credibility, which will put all Shoah eye witnesses into doubt. As the Shoah is entirely based on eye witness testimony with little else it will fail if the eye witnesses are discredited. The Shoah is a house of cards, which is coming down. There is no evidence of a tattoo.
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Re: Elie Wiesel

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:28 pm

VFX wrote:
Srebrenica wrote:
Guys/Girls please can you stop with the mutual masturbation and deal with some facts for a change. This is one person's word against another. Did Wiesel have a tattoo? - I don't know. Did he assume another persons identity? - I don't care. If Wiesel was a liar, does it disprove the Holocaust? - No. Want a debate on the Einsatzgruppen? - go for it :-)

There is a thread on the Einsatzgruppen. https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25822

It is a denunciation of Wiesels credibility, which will put all Shoah eye witnesses into doubt. As the Shoah is entirely based on eye witness testimony with little else it will fail if the eye witnesses are discredited. The Shoah is a house of cards, which is coming down. There is no evidence of a tattoo.
(my bold)
You don't need to prove any further that you are illiterate. It's glaringly obvious, dear.
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Re: Elie Wiesel

Postby VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:34 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:You don't need to prove any further that you are illiterate. It's glaringly obvious, dear.

Unless there is sufficient evidence here to verify Wiesels credibility then as it stands he has been denounced as a fraud and a liar, a distorter of history. This begs the question for the reasons why. The house of Shoah is falling just like the Battleship Auschwitz has been sunk. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Elie Wiesel

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:41 pm

VFX wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:You don't need to prove any further that you are illiterate. It's glaringly obvious, dear.

Unless there is sufficient evidence here to verify Wiesels credibility then as it stands he has been denounced as a fraud and a liar, a distorter of history. This begs the question for the reasons why. The house of Shoah is falling just like the Battleship Auschwitz has been sunk. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

And then you wake up. Must be miserable living in your skin.
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Re: Elie Wiesel

Postby Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:25 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
VFX wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:You don't need to prove any further that you are illiterate. It's glaringly obvious, dear.

Unless there is sufficient evidence here to verify Wiesels credibility then as it stands he has been denounced as a fraud and a liar, a distorter of history. This begs the question for the reasons why. The house of Shoah is falling just like the Battleship Auschwitz has been sunk. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

And then you wake up. Must be miserable living in your skin.


Sounds like somebody been drinking outta Hargis' cup :mrgreen:

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Re: Elie Wiesel

Postby montgomery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:37 pm

Srebrenica wrote:
VFX wrote:
montgomery wrote:VFX, in the absence of any rational rebuttal I'm inclined to accept your evidence as the facts of the issue you addressed. In fairness, I would have to do the same for Nessie. Sadly, some of the others can't accept that their bad manners aren't going to work anymore.

Indeed Monty, the issue is important to post at RODOH, where there will be some reflection and deep thought from people who really are interested in "real" history. As I am not biased it is not personal to me if Wiesel is a Weasel, Stoat , Ferret or what other identity it might assume. As there is no evidence to suggest that the Auschwitz inmates claims of identity theft is not credible, then the assertion that this man makes must be given the weighting it deserves. One must look at this other mans claims in more detail and weigh up why he might make up false allegations.
In the interim, the claim that Elie Wiesel is an impostor stands.


Guys/Girls please can you stop with the mutual masturbation and deal with some facts for a change. This is one person's word against another. Did Wiesel have a tattoo? - I don't know. Did he assume another persons identity? - I don't care. If Wiesel was a liar, does it disprove the Holocaust? - No. Want a debate on the Einsatzgruppen? - go for it :-)


I care if he assumed another person's identity and everyone should care if he's just another imposter. But no, it doesn't disprove the holocaust.

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Re: Elie Wiesel

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:54 pm

VFX wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
I can't tell if you are merely reporting these insane rantings or endorsing them. Please tell me it's the former.

I report these, with no bias and wait for evidence to suggest other wise. The fact that people may not like them doesn't mean that they will go away, they will not. At this moment they are not endorsed but needs discussing. I find here that many people say this is proven, that is a fact... blah blah blah, call the post an idiiot etc, but fail to give alternative information or evidence. Your reflective thoughts on this Wiesel issue would be appreciated thank you Upton.


I'm afraid you're not going to like them. Some things are really settled. As a result of that, I don't ever engage with people who come telling me that global warming is a hoax, that 9/11 is an inside job, that evolution is a humanist plot to undermine morality, that vaccinations cause autism, that astrology and dowsing are proven science, and on and on. It's not that there is NO evidence for these things. It's that there's an ENORMOUS MOUNTAIN of evidence in the other direction, and only tiny molehills on this side. It's simply not worth my while to argue with people who have carefully pruned their arguments to focus only on the tiny mysteries that they still want to have explained.

In relation to the Holocaust, there's not only actual film of the camps as they were liberated, there's also the testimony of unbiased witnesses like Eisenhower, Patton, and other hard-boiled generals with no axe to grind. Against that, you and others want to quibble because we can't fully recover the burial sites of the ashes of people who were cremated. That's simply idiotic. It's fully comparable to the creationists who think that unless we have a continuous series of intermediate forms for every claim of descent, then it's reasonable to think some divine being engaged in special creation. Not at all. You can keep a mind so open that your brain falls out if you like. I've got better things to do.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: Elie Wiesel

Postby montgomery » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:04 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
VFX wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
I can't tell if you are merely reporting these insane rantings or endorsing them. Please tell me it's the former.

I report these, with no bias and wait for evidence to suggest other wise. The fact that people may not like them doesn't mean that they will go away, they will not. At this moment they are not endorsed but needs discussing. I find here that many people say this is proven, that is a fact... blah blah blah, call the post an idiiot etc, but fail to give alternative information or evidence. Your reflective thoughts on this Wiesel issue would be appreciated thank you Upton.


I'm afraid you're not going to like them. Some things are really settled. As a result of that, I don't ever engage with people who come telling me that global warming is a hoax, that 9/11 is an inside job, that evolution is a humanist plot to undermine morality, that vaccinations cause autism, that astrology and dowsing are proven science, and on and on. It's not that there is NO evidence for these things. It's that there's an ENORMOUS MOUNTAIN of evidence in the other direction, and only tiny molehills on this side. It's simply not worth my while to argue with people who have carefully pruned their arguments to focus only on the tiny mysteries that they still want to have explained.

In relation to the Holocaust, there's not only actual film of the camps as they were liberated, there's also the testimony of unbiased witnesses like Eisenhower, Patton, and other hard-boiled generals with no axe to grind. Against that, you and others want to quibble because we can't fully recover the burial sites of the ashes of people who were cremated. That's simply idiotic. It's fully comparable to the creationists who think that unless we have a continuous series of intermediate forms for every claim of descent, then it's reasonable to think some divine being engaged in special creation. Not at all. You can keep a mind so open that your brain falls out if you like. I've got better things to do.


Attack the message, not the messenger Upton. And if you don't like the debate, as you suggest then why not move on. It's getting very tedious hearing all the spam and insults from the others and now I'm wondering if you're going to join them.

Some additional information on Weisel: https://www.henrymakow.com/elie_wiesel_ ... _iden.html

No, it doesn't disprove the holocaust but it's getting to the point at which a very lengthy anthology could be written on the misinformation and lies alone.

In this instance, Elie Weisel isn't just John Doe who has had a bad day! This is getting right to the heart of the whole question.

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Re: Elie Wiesel

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:15 am

Maybe our little M. pudica should do its research on Elie Wiesel?
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Re: Elie Wiesel

Postby VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:16 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
VFX wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
In relation to the Holocaust, there's not only actual film of the camps as they were liberated, there's also the testimony of unbiased witnesses like Eisenhower, Patton, and other hard-boiled generals with no axe to grind.

After the western liberation of the camps, it was assumed that major extermination had occurred. There were huge numbers of dead bodies. It was claimed that most if not all the camps had gas chambers. In about 1961, a doctor did post mortem autopsies on alleged gassing victims and found that there was no evidence of gassing, but the likely cause of death was typhus, cholera and other diseases. We have all seen the bodies bull dozed up and it is awful.
Since 1961 the gassing scenario in the Western allied camps have all but died. The only camps that now are officially declared to be death camps are those located within the Soviet Sector, which is reduced to about 6.
People claim there is a huge amount of evidence, credible eyewitness, but to be honest all of these are found very much wanting. The map below while simplistic will evidence the current state of affairs regarding death camps. Dacha, Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald and many more despite the horrific pictures taken by allied forces are officially regarded as labour camps and not extermination centres.
You may view that image here

If you are so convinced that Revision of History to do with the alleged Shoah is equivalent to say "creationism" then why are you on a "Holocaust Denial Forum". I don't go to "Flat Earth Forums" to debate the world is a spheroid.
Last edited by VFX on Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Elie Wiesel

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:20 am

You obviously haven't heard the man... :roll:
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Re: Elie Wiesel

Postby Balmoral95 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:05 am

Apparently the Bobbsey twins haven't talked to our own Ericunt to see how the whole Wiesel claim worked out.

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Re: Elie Wiesel

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:16 am

I see the little weasel's gotten into editing replied to posts again.
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Re: Elie Wiesel

Postby montgomery » Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:18 am

VFX wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
VFX wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
In relation to the Holocaust, there's not only actual film of the camps as they were liberated, there's also the testimony of unbiased witnesses like Eisenhower, Patton, and other hard-boiled generals with no axe to grind.

After the western liberation of the camps, it was assumed that major extermination had occurred. There were huge numbers of dead bodies. It was claimed that most if not all the camps had gas chambers. In about 1961, a doctor did post mortem autopsies on alleged gassing victims and found that there was no evidence of gassing, but the likely cause of death was typhus, cholera and other diseases. We have all seen the bodies bull dozed up and it is awful.
Since 1961 the gassing scenario in the Western allied camps have all but died. The only camps that now are officially declared to be death camps are those located within the Soviet Sector, which is reduced to about 6.
People claim there is a huge amount of evidence, credible eyewitness, but to be honest all of these are found very much wanting. The map below while simplistic will evidence the current state of affairs regarding death camps. Dacha, Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald and many more despite the horrific pictures taken by allied forces are officially regarded as labour camps and not extermination centres.
You may view that image here

If you are so convinced that Revision of History to do with the alleged Shoah is equivalent to say "creationism" then why are you on a "Holocaust Denial Forum". I don't go to "Flat Earth Forums" to debate the world is a spheroid.


And no rebuttal of your post by the two spammers. If this was a court of law they would be kicked out on their backsides.

I wouldn't go so far as to say, no gas chambers, no holocaust, but the tactics they are using are losing tactics and eventually decent thinking people are going to start asking why. Is there no rebuttal possible??

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Re: Elie Wiesel

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:57 am

>> As the Shoah is entirely based on eye witness testimony with little else it will fail if the eye witnesses are discredited.

Seriously?

As to the question asked by Srebrenica, one could erase every word written by Wiesel, whose words are only rarely used by researchers and usually for commentary, and not even a bit of the historical understanding of the Holocaust would change. Anyone who has read the scholarship - as VFX is at pains to assure us he has not done - knows this.
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Re: Elie Wiesel

Postby Balmoral95 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:02 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:>> As the Shoah is entirely based on eye witness testimony with little else it will fail if the eye witnesses are discredited.

Seriously?

As to the question asked by Srebrenica, one could erase every word written by Wiesel, whose words are only rarely used by researchers and usually for commentary, and not even a bit of the historical understanding of the Holocaust would change. Anyone who has read the scholarship - as VFX is at pains to assure us he has not done - knows this.


Which comment makes absolutely no sense when one is calling for a definitive physical investigation of sites which might prove exactly the opposite... :roll:

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Re: Elie Wiesel

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:05 am

As Nessie has tried pointing out to these stubborn Know-Nothings, the history here is robust, supported by multiple kinds of evidence and large amounts of it. Wiesel's work simply happens not to figure much at all into that robust evidence: if it did, and if it were in error, the rest of the robust, intertwined evidence would remain.

I know this because I had read in my life only a Boston Globe op-ed on commemoration by Elie Wiesel (I really disliked the piece) until I read parts of Night when deniers tripped themselves up over Wiesel's "choice" to go on the death march. And because, much to montgomery's chagrin, I actually read and think about scholarship on the Third Reich, war, and Nazi crimes.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Elie Wiesel

Postby VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:09 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: I actually read and think about scholarship on the Third Reich, war, and Nazi crimes.

I am glad you do this. It is good to know someone actually takes an interest. I am interested in your thoughts. You obviously have much knowledge so there is no intention to demean that. Please discuss this without the name calling etc. Otherwise I am supportive of your thoughts.
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