Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

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Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:46 pm

Because this comment addresses the discovery of physical evidence—the rarest of all Holocaust evidence types—I think I would be remiss if I didn’t break it out into it’s own subject and then respond to it.

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:I also learned that in April 1944, the Germans stopped trying to hide the evidence of their crimes because, as luck would have it, all the Jews and POWs that formed that special unit had escaped! The Germans didn't want their POW and Jewish evidence disposal units to escape. They kept them all in a partially covered pit, chained up and surrounded by guards. But those rascals managed to dig a tunnel out of the pit with their bare hands and spoons and get away.

Update on the escape of the "rascals" by tunnel from Ponar, forensic evidence for tunnel and largest burial pit at Ponar:

"Escape Tunnel, Dug by Hand, Is Found at Holocaust Massacre Site"

Image

"Researchers Uncover Long-Lost Tunnel Used By Jews To Escape Extermination Pits"

Shoah interview: Motke Zaidel & Itzak & Hanna Dugin

news article from Antiquities

"Secret Tunnel Built By Jewish Prisoners To Escape Nazis Found"


Well Stat Mech, I have to admit that this particular slice of the Holocaust narrative appears to be gaining something closer to what we might call credibility. But keep in mind that my earlier criticism to which you are now responding was a criticism of the specific document that, I believe, Jeffk 1970 linked to entitled Ponary the Place of “Human Slaughter” (written by University of Gdansk Prof Piotr Niwinski)

This specific document lays down a historical narrative that has the quality of story that somebody made up as they went along based upon conjecture rather than facts. We learn that mine fields were “probably set up along the existing fence” or “According to incomplete data…[insert fact here]. Important testimony is provided by “anonymous” eyewitnesses while the “most extensive accounts of the executions in Ponary” come from the obligatory records that were “found after the war in bottles buried in the garden near the porch of his [the eyewitness] house.”

We’re also are told the that most documentary evidence was destroyed and that “the most extensive information has been provided by eyewitnesses” and since there are so few of these eyewitnesses who survived, we are told that “more attention should be paid to these existing accounts.”

So you see, my critique from three weeks ago was directed not at the Ponary narrative in general as much as it was at this particular version of the Ponary narrative. The news stories you linked to announcing a television documentary about newly discovered physical evidence at the Ponary site explain the Ponary narrative in a more succinct and believable fashion than does that document that Jeffk 1970 found for us.

As to the actual physical evidence that appears to have been discovered, I’m cautiously optimistic that you’re on to something important. Before I pass judgement, I’d like to see something more substantial than news stories that were written for the general public after PBS announced they are making a documentary film to be broadcast on television in 2017. Something that has been published in peer-reviewed scholarly journal would be ideal. Do you know where I might be able to find these?

I looked for articles written by one of the leading academics working on this project—archeologist Richard Freund of the Univesity of Hartford. Evidently he's well known for his work on finding Atlantis. But his published works on finding Holocaust related physical evidence is a bit more elusive.

I don’t want to get burned again. If you recall, a few years ago the esteemed Dr. Sturdy-Colls promised us physical evidence of mass graves capable of having held 700,000 bodies at Treblinka. But so far, all the evidence we've seen are the forty bones, an old shoe, and some tiles with a Star of David on the underside that she showed us in Treblinka: Hitler's Killing Machine that was first broadcast on the Smithsonian Channel in 2014.

I do hope we see the physical evidence at Ponary discussed in a scholarly publication before we see it on television next year. Until then, I'll just wait and see...
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Re: Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:57 pm

Dr. Sturdy-Colls and Treblinka...

Mary Q Contrary wrote:But so far, all the evidence we've seen are the forty bones, an old shoe, and some tiles with a Star of David on the underside that she showed us...

Still not read a word, not visited her site, nothing sunk in? Still? Nothing?!


Oh, you'd been away on a FO, sorry...

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Re: Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:32 pm

Mary, I did not realize that your "critique" posted in the Einsatzgruppen thread didn't have to do with what you call "the Ponary narrative in general" but with a "particular version of the Ponary narrative." I never was able to open a link to what Jeffk cited, so, for all I know you may be right about it, you may be wrong, I just don't know. There is so much other evidence, from a variety of sources, about the mass murders carried out by the Germans with Lithuanian shooting squads at Ponar that I now understand why you didn't direct your "critique" "at the Ponary narrative in general." I finally get it - it was confusing to me that you seemed to be "critiquing" "the Ponary narrative in general" given so much evidence . . . but you found what Jeffk linked to difficult to reconcile with the rest of the evidence. Fine.

In any event, this thread will be probably be short. My post was really meant as an update on the rascals, as you called them, in the Einsatzgruppen thread. To answer your question, no, I don't know where or if Freund and others will publish their results or go straight to TV. The sum total of what I know about this investigation is contained in what I linked to. Which makes a longer discussion difficult to sustain.

As you know, I will see what comes out of it, as it's made available, and post anything relevant. Kind of like I've done with the Sobibór archeology thread.

As an aside, all I know of Dr Freund comes from his university webpage, which the Times story linked to (http://www.hartford.edu/a_and_s/departm ... reund.aspx), just as what I know of Bauman also comes from a link in the Times piece (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Pa ... blications) - and ditto Jol (http://www.jolgpr.org/). As I've said in threads about Sturdy Colls, it is unfortunate that funding comes from Nova, PBS, etc for archeological work that has wide interest. I don't much go for the sensationalistic nature of this stuff. But it is relevant to the rascals, so I shared it, along with the testimonies of Zaidel and Dugin from Shoah. As with Sturdy Colls' research and that of Haimi and Mazurek at Sobibór, we will simply have to wait to see what there is to this. What's up with Krege, btw?
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- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby Denying-History » Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:40 pm

Kerge? Didn't he go on a day-care trip to Treblinka? Then claim he camped on site for 4 to 5 days?
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Re: Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jul 02, 2016 9:11 pm

"Didn't he go on a day-care trip to Treblinka?" :heh:

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Re: Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 02, 2016 11:17 pm

I was really wondering if Krege had ever published the final results of his Treblinka lawn-mower survey, as promised in 2001, and addressed questions that arose about his first "findings." For example and so on.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby Denying-History » Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:28 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I was really wondering if Krege had ever published the final results of his Treblinka lawn-mower survey, as promised in 2001, and addressed questions that arose about his first "findings." For example and so on.


No the Krege report never came along. He was scared off like Ball. People challenged him, and based on his own claims the camp technology should have never existed. Trust me I can quote the 3 Krege Nos.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:39 am

Denying-History wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I was really wondering if Krege had ever published the final results of his Treblinka lawn-mower survey, as promised in 2001, and addressed questions that arose about his first "findings." For example and so on.


No the Krege report never came along. He was scared off like Ball. People challenged him, and based on his own claims the camp technology should have never existed. Trust me I can quote the 3 Krege Nos.


IIRC the scan he provided showed a disturbance consistent with remains of a mass grave.... and he was to dim to realize it.

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Re: Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby Denying-History » Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:06 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I was really wondering if Krege had ever published the final results of his Treblinka lawn-mower survey, as promised in 2001, and addressed questions that arose about his first "findings." For example and so on.


No the Krege report never came along. He was scared off like Ball. People challenged him, and based on his own claims the camp technology should have never existed. Trust me I can quote the 3 Krege Nos.


IIRC the scan he provided showed a disturbance consistent with remains of a mass grave.... and he was to dim to realize it.


If I'm correct all the white areas were graves right?
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby Xcalibur » Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:24 am

Mills thought "Craige" was full of {!#%@} 12 years ago. Always nice to see them being debunked by one of their own:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 46#p426646

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Re: Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:52 am

Denying-History wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I was really wondering if Krege had ever published the final results of his Treblinka lawn-mower survey, as promised in 2001, and addressed questions that arose about his first "findings." For example and so on.


No the Krege report never came along. He was scared off like Ball. People challenged him, and based on his own claims the camp technology should have never existed. Trust me I can quote the 3 Krege Nos.

I was wondering tongue in cheek, so to speak. :mrgreen:
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby Denying-History » Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:11 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I was really wondering if Krege had ever published the final results of his Treblinka lawn-mower survey, as promised in 2001, and addressed questions that arose about his first "findings." For example and so on.


No the Krege report never came along. He was scared off like Ball. People challenged him, and based on his own claims the camp technology should have never existed. Trust me I can quote the 3 Krege Nos.

I was wondering tongue in cheek, so to speak. :mrgreen:


Lol that flew right past me. :)
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:56 am

Xcalibur wrote:Mills thought "Craige" was full of {!#%@} 12 years ago. Always nice to see them being debunked by one of their own:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 46#p426646


I can't figure out if Mills is a denier or someone who desperately wants to be a denier but is too sharp to fall for their transparent lies and fantasies.

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Re: Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:41 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Dr. Sturdy-Colls and Treblinka...

Mary Q Contrary wrote:But so far, all the evidence we've seen are the forty bones, an old shoe, and some tiles with a Star of David on the underside that she showed us...

Still not read a word, not visited her site, nothing sunk in? Still? Nothing?!


Oh, you'd been away on a FO, sorry...

Did I miss something while I was gone? Give me a minute while I catch up on her latest findings.......


Yeah....bones, shoes, and tiles. Same as it ever was.
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Re: Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:22 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Dr. Sturdy-Colls and Treblinka...

Mary Q Contrary wrote:But so far, all the evidence we've seen are the forty bones, an old shoe, and some tiles with a Star of David on the underside that she showed us...

Still not read a word, not visited her site, nothing sunk in? Still? Nothing?!


Oh, you'd been away on a FO, sorry...

Did I miss something while I was gone? Give me a minute while I catch up on her latest findings.......


Yeah....bones, shoes, and tiles. Same as it ever was.


Well at least you seem to have learned that there is no claim of a Star of David being on those tiles*... that's a start.


* (I take it you found that it's a simple old pottery mark.)

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Re: Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:51 pm

Krege?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:20 pm

Not very deep?

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Re: Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:14 pm

"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby Xcalibur » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:38 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Xcalibur wrote:Mills thought "Craige" was full of {!#%@} 12 years ago. Always nice to see them being debunked by one of their own:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 46#p426646


I can't figure out if Mills is a denier or someone who desperately wants to be a denier but is too sharp to fall for their transparent lies and fantasies.


Mills is like unto Irving: They're in their own category.

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Re: Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:45 pm

Well said, I think that's right.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Jul 04, 2016 3:17 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Well said, I think that's right.


Some of the docs that Irving made noises about (like the first and second Posen speeches) Mill accepts as authentic. But his personal/political rhetoric is a lot like Irvings in most ways.

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Re: Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:54 am

"The Holocaust’s Great Escape: A remarkable discovery in Lithuania brings a legendary tale of survival back to life"

"Holocaust Secrets Revealed in Powerful NOVA PBS Film Airing 4/19"

(thanks to the reader who sent me these links; I didn't see the broadcast but will look to see if the documentary is available online or some other way)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:01 pm

The above linked Smithsonian article contains a snippet of testimony from one of the Ponary Kommando members, Yuri Farber, in which Farber schematizes early shootings (1941) in which victims were not stripped and later shootings (starting 1942) when victims were stripped, supposedly for the Germans' Winter Aid campaigns. This contradicts other testimony and evidence regarding the shootings, e.g., Sakowicz's diary, Kruk's diary (e.g., Pesye Schloss and Yudis Trojak), JTA reporting, Liba Augenfeld testimony, reporting by the city of Vilnius administration, and others, which describe how or support that many of the victims were stripped in the fall 1941 mass shootings at Ponary.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Physical evidence of the Vilna Holocaust?

Postby Xcalibur » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:13 am

Xcalibur wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Xcalibur wrote:Mills thought "Craige" was full of {!#%@} 12 years ago. Always nice to see them being debunked by one of their own:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 46#p426646


I can't figure out if Mills is a denier or someone who desperately wants to be a denier but is too sharp to fall for their transparent lies and fantasies.


Mills is like unto Irving: They're in their own category.


Irving tried being the Trump of denial.... Mills is, and always has been an Irving ass-kisser.


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