The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:51 am

Giving this a bump, I've picked up a digital copy of Blitzkrieg by Lloyd Clark from my library. It's going to wait, I want to finish Ullrich first, but I'm hoping this will add a bit more to the subject in regards to German air doctrine.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby ryu » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:54 am

Considering the Nazis love to invoke moral relativism and changing numbers in the Dresden bombing why can't we pretent to deny this holocaust? incogman.net/2017/02/a-real-holocaust-back-during-world-war-ii/#more-139769
Also were they really running from commies?

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:34 am

ryu wrote:...... why can't we pretent to deny this holocaust?
What does "pretent" mean? Stop posting on this forum as you refuse to check anything.

incogman.net/2017/02/a-real-holocaust-back-during-world-war-ii/#more-139769

You have again linked to a neo-nazi propaganda website, that has "Jew Watch" and other propaganda pages to attract total idiots like yourself.

Stop posting on this forum.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Denying-History » Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:28 am

ryu wrote:Considering the Nazis love to invoke moral relativism and changing numbers in the Dresden bombing why can't we [pretend] to deny this holocaust?
I feel this is what Ryu meant by "pretent" so I am going to stick with it for a response. Dresden was a military target and contained factories inside of it you can learn this from a simple google search:

A 1953 United States Air Force report defended the operation as the justified bombing of a strategic target, which they claimed was a major rail transport and communication centre, housing 110 factories and 50,000 workers in support of the German war effort.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden

Your website also lies about the death toll, and this again is only a simple google search to find. The evidence for the 200,000 figure has long since been debunked since the Irving trial:

What does the forged “TB-47” say and how does it compare to the real “TB-47”? The forged “TB-47” states that 202,040 people were killed in the Dresden air raid, with a possible death toll of 250,000. It also states that 68,650 bodies were burned in the Altmarkt (city square). However, when the authentic “TB-47” turned up in 1965, it showed that only 20,204 people were killed with perhaps as many as 25,000. The number of bodies burned in the Altmarkt was listed as 6,865. Someone, possibly in the Ministry of Propaganda, clumsily added a zero to the figures, inflating them 10 times over (20,204 became 202,040; 25,000 became 250,000; 6,865 became 68,650). The intention was clearly to inflame the German public.

https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/d2-dresden-death-toll/

Some Holocaust Ryu.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Xcalibur » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:26 am

Bombing during WWII.. crap isn't worth a response.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:36 am

Roasted Nazis ha ha ha

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Xcalibur » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:46 am

Jeff_36 wrote:Roasted Nazis ha ha ha



Oops. Guess we should have tried better, but {!#%@} happens. To use Mr. Smith's excuse: "there was a war on.".

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:53 am

Xcalibur wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:Roasted Nazis ha ha ha



Oops. Guess we should have tried better, but {!#%@} happens. To use Mr. Smith's excuse: "there was a war on.".


As, my grand father used to say "if you fly with the crows, you get shot at with the crows".

For the record I don't like it, and I think it was rather unpleasent, but life is a bitch, especially for tyrannical facist dictatorships.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:42 pm

Weinberg, in A World at Arms, devotes a significant amount of attention to the Allied air war. On the ground of effectiveness, he reaches the same conclusions that I've posted in this thread - area city bombing, despite the hopes/promises of Harris and others, were not effective in breaking Germany's war effort and did not/could not have accomplished their stated goals. However, strategic campaigns against fuel production and transportation facilities were, in Weinberg's view, effective - indirectly by diverting air power to defense and directly by being disruptive of key economic sectors. In Weinberg's view, the miracle weapons program was seriously and materially delayed on account of the raids, as was other war production in Germany. Weinberg also argues that the Allies by 1943 had learned that one-time big strikes, e.g. Hamburg, didn't have as much efficacy as continued raids on these facilities. His overall tone and his catalogue of effects give more support than does Overy to the success of the Allies' strategic against industrial and communications infrastructure.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:44 pm

As a side note, it would be good of Ian Hazard, for example, to explain how this thread is an example of groupthink taking place in a "Believer" bunker protected by moderators.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby ryu » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:56 pm

Denying-History wrote:
ryu wrote:Considering the Nazis love to invoke moral relativism and changing numbers in the Dresden bombing why can't we [pretend] to deny this holocaust?
I feel this is what Ryu meant by "pretent" so I am going to stick with it for a response. Dresden was a military target and contained factories inside of it you can learn this from a simple google search:

A 1953 United States Air Force report defended the operation as the justified bombing of a strategic target, which they claimed was a major rail transport and communication centre, housing 110 factories and 50,000 workers in support of the German war effort.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden

Your website also lies about the death toll, and this again is only a simple google search to find. The evidence for the 200,000 figure has long since been debunked since the Irving trial:

What does the forged “TB-47” say and how does it compare to the real “TB-47”? The forged “TB-47” states that 202,040 people were killed in the Dresden air raid, with a possible death toll of 250,000. It also states that 68,650 bodies were burned in the Altmarkt (city square). However, when the authentic “TB-47” turned up in 1965, it showed that only 20,204 people were killed with perhaps as many as 25,000. The number of bodies burned in the Altmarkt was listed as 6,865. Someone, possibly in the Ministry of Propaganda, clumsily added a zero to the figures, inflating them 10 times over (20,204 became 202,040; 25,000 became 250,000; 6,865 became 68,650). The intention was clearly to inflame the German public.

https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/d2-dresden-death-toll/

Some Holocaust Ryu.

Hey the denier brought it up...

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Denying-History » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:18 pm

ryu wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
ryu wrote:Considering the Nazis love to invoke moral relativism and changing numbers in the Dresden bombing why can't we [pretend] to deny this holocaust?
I feel this is what Ryu meant by "pretent" so I am going to stick with it for a response. Dresden was a military target and contained factories inside of it you can learn this from a simple google search:

A 1953 United States Air Force report defended the operation as the justified bombing of a strategic target, which they claimed was a major rail transport and communication centre, housing 110 factories and 50,000 workers in support of the German war effort.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden

Your website also lies about the death toll, and this again is only a simple google search to find. The evidence for the 200,000 figure has long since been debunked since the Irving trial:

What does the forged “TB-47” say and how does it compare to the real “TB-47”? The forged “TB-47” states that 202,040 people were killed in the Dresden air raid, with a possible death toll of 250,000. It also states that 68,650 bodies were burned in the Altmarkt (city square). However, when the authentic “TB-47” turned up in 1965, it showed that only 20,204 people were killed with perhaps as many as 25,000. The number of bodies burned in the Altmarkt was listed as 6,865. Someone, possibly in the Ministry of Propaganda, clumsily added a zero to the figures, inflating them 10 times over (20,204 became 202,040; 25,000 became 250,000; 6,865 became 68,650). The intention was clearly to inflame the German public.

https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/d2-dresden-death-toll/

Some Holocaust Ryu.

Hey the denier brought it up...
you posted it.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Denying-History » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:20 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:As a side note, it would be good of Ian Hazard, for example, to explain how this thread is an example of groupthink taking place in a "Believer" bunker protected by moderators.
Lol Ian's to busy grave digging to see if Wiesel has a tattoo or not.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:33 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:As a side note, it would be good of Ian Hazard, for example, to explain how this thread is an example of groupthink taking place in a "Believer" bunker protected by moderators.
Lol Ian's to busy grave digging to see if Wiesel has a tattoo or not.



Ian is busy dreamily watching his hero, Donald Trump, make America great. Again.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:48 pm

By March 1945, the US had changed its views on area bombing of cities, now adopting this tactic, and launched a series of incendiary raids by B-29s on Tokyo, killing, according to Weinberg, 80-100,000 civilians (other sources point toward the 100,000 number), as many as 4x the number who perished in the Allies' firebombing of Dresden. I feel certain that deniers are deeply moved by this bombing and its horrific results. Very certain.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Xcalibur » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:32 pm

I feel certain that deniers are deeply moved by this bombing and its horrific results. Very certain.


I'd put it right up there with their heartfelt sympathies for the plight of the Palestinians and the Black Lives Matter movement.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:37 pm

I'm still waiting for their heartfelt sympathy towards the poor Poles and Ukrainians displaced after the war.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Balsamo » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:11 am

Sorry to point that out, but the REAL numbers of Dresden victims will probably remain unknown...I don't give too much credit to the 25.000 nor do i do give credit to 250.000. If IIRC, there was this document provided by Hans which mentioned the 20.000 number, but it was under the expression of "festgestellt"or something, which means "counted", body or part of the body identified...
Personally, i have some doubt about the capacity of 1945 Nazi Germany to launch a huge research into all the ruins, nor was this administration at that time aware of who was in the city and where.
But again, it is not what should matter.
Let's say Nazi Germany would have lost the war in 1943, would the genocide be a lesser a crime because it would have killed only 3 or 4 millions?

As you said, Stat, The USA were in full force in its bombing trip, and while the attention is focused on the big cities, one often forgets the thousands of fighter-bombers that were targeting whatever moved beneath them in the country side.
My grandfather told me he had to find cover on a regular basis almost every morning when he was searching for milk...
It is important to say that he never held any anger and gladly let her daughter marry someone whose family as well as himself fought hardly against his country...Hence my existence...

So again, it is the policy that matters not the result of it...

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Balsamo » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:14 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I'm still waiting for their heartfelt sympathy towards the poor Poles and Ukrainians displaced after the war.


And let's not forget the Chinese who were the first to endure a cataclysmic strategic bombing...And indeed, all innocent victims are equal in the end...

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:48 am

Balsamo wrote:Sorry to point that out, but the REAL numbers of Dresden victims will probably remain unknown...I don't give too much credit to the 25.000 nor do i do give credit to 250.000.

From everything I've read, the number is closer to 25k, by far, than 250k. Roughly. Which is why I wrote "as many as," given that the numbers are rough. But then you write, "So again, it is the policy that matters not the result of it..." Well, it is both . . . IMO.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Balsamo » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:26 am

Yes, sorry Stat, I have over reacted on that one. Just like in the good old days on the HC comments section...
But 25.000 is the lowest estimate achievable. I have nothing against it as long as it does not become a truth... Of course 250.000 is a crazy number, the result of a human reaction in front of such ruins...but it was believed as plausible, and not only by deniers or neo-fascists...

And again no, not Both...The intend is enough...the policy put in place in order to achieve the goal...

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:30 am

Balsamo wrote:Yes, sorry Stat, I have over reacted on that one. Just like in the good old days on the HC comments section...
But 25.000 is the lowest estimate achievable. I have nothing against it as long as it does not become a truth... Of course 250.000 is a crazy number, the result of a human reaction in front of such ruins...but it was believed as plausible, and not only by deniers or neo-fascists...

And again no, not Both...The intend is enough...the policy put in place in order to achieve the goal...

I am concerned about the result: if the policy is laser-targeting of military production but there are widespread "collateral" deaths, or if precision drone strikes intended to kill individual al Qaida chiefs take out nearby hospitals and schools and the people in them, I don't think that the intent and policy, without looking at the results, tell us nearly enough.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Balsamo » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:46 am

LOL, we don't always have the same logic, don't we?

I start with the intent and the policy that would target a specific group. In this perspective, if the means and weapons used are not up to the task, and if that detail has an influence on the results, the guilt remains the same...The intend comes first...
In you example, i can assure you that by 1945, there were no "laser-targeting" in mind... The term "collateral damages" is kind of a joke to me, although inevitable in some cases...it is the concept and its use that is a joke...
Imagine that every Police officers had a machine gun instead of a pistol, so at every alarm, they just shoot all over...eventually killing the bad guys, but "unfortunately" collaterally hitting the woman and children that happened to be nearby...one could still say that the intend was not there, but the policy would have been there...
Are you not supposed to be sleeping? It is even getting late for me...

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:57 am

Which is why I want to keep an eye on the policy and the results - both, not one or the other! LOL

{!#%@} I've written at length about the policy - also to be sure results - in this thread. I'm not trying to minimize the policy and intent but to look at how things work in the world and what that means for people.

You will notice that I used joke quotes for collateral; we both seem to be saying the same thing in different ways maybe ...

The point I was making wasn't about policy or death tolls, of course, but rather that, on any ground, deniers are very selective in their outrage.

Night, night ;)
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:21 am

Considering that Dresden was a legitimate millitary target, the term "collateral damage" applies here. Additionally - laser targeting was not technoloically possible at the time, so I would not make such comparisons out of historical context.


And as always, it was Nazi Germany, they had brouht enormous suffering to the entire European continent, and it gives an observer immense, visceral satisfaction to see them be forced to experince the miser y that they were only too happy to dispense.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Denying-History » Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:32 am

Jeff_36 wrote:Considering that Dresden was a legitimate millitary target, the term "collateral damage" applies here. Additionally - laser targeting was not technoloically possible at the time, so I would not make such comparisons out of historical context.
There is no question to Dresden being a military target... There is however debate to is proportionality to their objective.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:26 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Considering that Dresden was a legitimate millitary target, the term "collateral damage" applies here. Additionally - laser targeting was not technoloically possible at the time, so I would not make such comparisons out of historical context.

The term "laser targeting" was used in relation to al Qaida IIRC, to make a point about targeting vs results using an extreme, albeit contemporary, case. In the case of area bombing during WWII, however, the strategy and results more or less aligned.

The city center of Dresden was not a legitimate military target. Many posts in this thread explain that legitimate military targets in Dresden were not even hit (Hamburg is another example of this approach). Dresden had legitimate military targets, as did other German cities, but area strikes, mostly directed at urban neighborhoods and downtowns, at housing for example, expose your phrasing as a verbal game. That for much of the war the US and UK had different approaches, and that postwar commentators are able to make distinctions, not on ethical grounds but on the ground of effectiveness (concluding that strikes that did target fuel and communications were the most impactful and that strategic bombing as envisioned by Harris was not very effective), further undermines your thinking on this.

Jeff_36 wrote:And as always, it was Nazi Germany, they had brouht enormous suffering to the entire European continent, and it gives an observer immense, visceral satisfaction to see them be forced to experince the miser y that they were only too happy to dispense.

Some observers, not all to be sure. Even some of the advocates of area bombing viewed the result as an awful necessity, not a point of visceral satisfaction. If you think in abstractions only - like nation-states and policies - and ignore results, individuals, and families, for example, and if you conflate average schmoes with war criminals, it is easier to gain the kind of satisfaction you describe and apparently seek.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:12 am

I'm giving this a bump, I'm directing someone over to read it.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:22 am

Giving this a bump, interesting article on the ME-262 on Daily Kos, of all places.
Funny jab at Trump at the end:
https://m.dailykos.com/story/2017/7/3/1675643/-Nazi-Super-Weapon-The-Me-262?detail=emaildkre

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby The Mystic Jeff » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:20 pm

Someone here suggested I Comment on this thread, having been part of "discussing" it elsewhere. In that context, it was part of a Nazi/nazi symp deal wringing hands over "the good white Germans" that died in Dresden and Hamburg.

I offered a different view, noting that the allied air forces obviously didn't consider the "Anti Nazi" riots in both cities where Nazi's were tarred and feathered, then ran out of the cities on a rail, and that should have spared both cities...Well, of course there were no "anti-nazi riots", and given both British and American policies for conducting warfare against Enemy Combatants, reducing both Dresden and Hamburg shouldn't be a shock. Oddly, the same people decrying the deaths of "good white Germans" say nothing about the dead in Rotterdam, London, Coventry and other towns and cities during the Blitz, then the V* weapons falling on Britain and Rotterdam killing more tens of thousands, which also should surprise no one in light of a commonly read book "The Theory of Frightfulness" by Italian Guilo Douhet, published in the 20s and undoubtedly read by Luftwaffe strategists, and Arthur Harris. Douhet said the next war would be won, in large measure, by bombing cities and civilians, in contrast to doctrines supposedly sparing these
'non military targets." :lol: The sooner bombed, the sooner a warring nation could be brought to their knees by killing the support systems needed on "the home front," breaking an enemy's will. Of course, nothing was said about US bombing campaigns in the Pacific, which were even more horrific and with higher body counts, but those that died weren't "good white Germans," but Japanese, another racial kettle of fish, potentially. IMO, and I'll say it again here, gawd bless Harris and the US Eight Air Force! The Germans were, in a way, lucky, they gave up and surrendered before the US had an atomic weapon. There well may have been the proverbial "Two suns in the sunset" over Berlin, instead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or over all three. Although horrific, the bombings of Dresden and Hamburg should not be either shocking or a surprise to anyone other than someone trying to unsuccessfully wave "a bloody shirt" to bolster a new love of the old. now dead, Third Reich.

Nothing like the smell of dead nazis roasting on an open wreckage-fuelled fire: Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind...

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby The Mystic Jeff » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:30 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Giving this a bump, interesting article on the ME-262 on Daily Kos, of all places.
Funny jab at Trump at the end:
https://m.dailykos.com/story/2017/7/3/1675643/-Nazi-Super-Weapon-The-Me-262?detail=emaildkre

Interesting you post this jeffk. I've seen ME262s in flight and up close several times. The ME262 Project was based at Paine Field, near Everett, WA where Boeing builds and tests 747s, 67s, 77s and 87s. They'd take off and land literally overhead of where I worked, and more than once had a chill up my spine seeing an ME262 landing overhead when sitting at a stop light on the way home. The team did a great job with the 262s. Another place to look: TY for the nostalgia.

http://www.airspacemag.com/military-avi ... -12695578/

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:28 am

The Mystic Jeff wrote:Someone here suggested I Comment on this thread, having been part of "discussing" it elsewhere. In that context, it was part of a Nazi/nazi symp deal wringing hands over "the good white Germans" that died in Dresden and Hamburg.

I offered a different view, noting that the allied air forces obviously didn't consider the "Anti Nazi" riots in both cities where Nazi's were tarred and feathered, then ran out of the cities on a rail, and that should have spared both cities...Well, of course there were no "anti-nazi riots", and given both British and American policies for conducting warfare against Enemy Combatants, reducing both Dresden and Hamburg shouldn't be a shock. Oddly, the same people decrying the deaths of "good white Germans" say nothing about the dead in Rotterdam, London, Coventry and other towns and cities during the Blitz, then the V* weapons falling on Britain and Rotterdam killing more tens of thousands, which also should surprise no one in light of a commonly read book "The Theory of Frightfulness" by Italian Guilo Douhet, published in the 20s and undoubtedly read by Luftwaffe strategists, and Arthur Harris. Douhet said the next war would be won, in large measure, by bombing cities and civilians, in contrast to doctrines supposedly sparing these
'non military targets." :lol: The sooner bombed, the sooner a warring nation could be brought to their knees by killing the support systems needed on "the home front," breaking an enemy's will. Of course, nothing was said about US bombing campaigns in the Pacific, which were even more horrific and with higher body counts, but those that died weren't "good white Germans," but Japanese, another racial kettle of fish, potentially. IMO, and I'll say it again here, gawd bless Harris and the US Eight Air Force! The Germans were, in a way, lucky, they gave up and surrendered before the US had an atomic weapon. There well may have been the proverbial "Two suns in the sunset" over Berlin, instead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or over all three. Although horrific, the bombings of Dresden and Hamburg should not be either shocking or a surprise to anyone other than someone trying to unsuccessfully wave "a bloody shirt" to bolster a new love of the old. now dead, Third Reich.

Nothing like the smell of dead nazis roasting on an open wreckage-fuelled fire: Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind...


Welcome to the forum, Mystic Jeff!!!

Can't get ol' Billy or Tom to come over..... :lol:

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:54 am

>> " Although horrific, the bombings of Dresden and Hamburg should not be . . . shocking . . . to anyone other than someone trying to unsuccessfully wave 'a bloody shirt' to bolster a new love of the old. now dead, Third Reich"

Shocking is not the word I'd use but I've made clear throughout this thread why I strongly disagree with this general sentiment. It is possible to recognize Allied wrongdoing whilst reserving far harsher judgment for the Third Reich. The way this is stated virtually brackets out concern over elements of Allied conduct as Nazi boosterism.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Balmoral95 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:09 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
The Mystic Jeff wrote:Someone here suggested I Comment on this thread, having been part of "discussing" it elsewhere. In that context, it was part of a Nazi/nazi symp deal wringing hands over "the good white Germans" that died in Dresden and Hamburg.

I offered a different view, noting that the allied air forces obviously didn't consider the "Anti Nazi" riots in both cities where Nazi's were tarred and feathered, then ran out of the cities on a rail, and that should have spared both cities...Well, of course there were no "anti-nazi riots", and given both British and American policies for conducting warfare against Enemy Combatants, reducing both Dresden and Hamburg shouldn't be a shock. Oddly, the same people decrying the deaths of "good white Germans" say nothing about the dead in Rotterdam, London, Coventry and other towns and cities during the Blitz, then the V* weapons falling on Britain and Rotterdam killing more tens of thousands, which also should surprise no one in light of a commonly read book "The Theory of Frightfulness" by Italian Guilo Douhet, published in the 20s and undoubtedly read by Luftwaffe strategists, and Arthur Harris. Douhet said the next war would be won, in large measure, by bombing cities and civilians, in contrast to doctrines supposedly sparing these
'non military targets." :lol: The sooner bombed, the sooner a warring nation could be brought to their knees by killing the support systems needed on "the home front," breaking an enemy's will. Of course, nothing was said about US bombing campaigns in the Pacific, which were even more horrific and with higher body counts, but those that died weren't "good white Germans," but Japanese, another racial kettle of fish, potentially. IMO, and I'll say it again here, gawd bless Harris and the US Eight Air Force! The Germans were, in a way, lucky, they gave up and surrendered before the US had an atomic weapon. There well may have been the proverbial "Two suns in the sunset" over Berlin, instead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or over all three. Although horrific, the bombings of Dresden and Hamburg should not be either shocking or a surprise to anyone other than someone trying to unsuccessfully wave "a bloody shirt" to bolster a new love of the old. now dead, Third Reich.

Nothing like the smell of dead nazis roasting on an open wreckage-fuelled fire: Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind...


Welcome to the forum, Mystic Jeff!!!

Can't get ol' Billy or Tom to come over..... :lol:



I can't say I give a "well done" on this. Strat air has a place in that fight, but I think very badly executed and naively used at a criminally negligent cost to air crews and equipment.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:49 am

The Mystic Jeff wrote:Someone here suggested I Comment on this thread, having been part of "discussing" it elsewhere. In that context, it was part of a Nazi/nazi symp deal wringing hands over "the good white Germans" that died in Dresden and Hamburg.

I offered a different view, noting that the allied air forces obviously didn't consider the "Anti Nazi" riots in both cities where Nazi's were tarred and feathered, then ran out of the cities on a rail, and that should have spared both cities...Well, of course there were no "anti-nazi riots", and given both British and American policies for conducting warfare against Enemy Combatants, reducing both Dresden and Hamburg shouldn't be a shock. Oddly, the same people decrying the deaths of "good white Germans" say nothing about the dead in Rotterdam, London, Coventry and other towns and cities during the Blitz, then the V* weapons falling on Britain and Rotterdam killing more tens of thousands, which also should surprise no one in light of a commonly read book "The Theory of Frightfulness" by Italian Guilo Douhet, published in the 20s and undoubtedly read by Luftwaffe strategists, and Arthur Harris. Douhet said the next war would be won, in large measure, by bombing cities and civilians, in contrast to doctrines supposedly sparing these
'non military targets." :lol: The sooner bombed, the sooner a warring nation could be brought to their knees by killing the support systems needed on "the home front," breaking an enemy's will. Of course, nothing was said about US bombing campaigns in the Pacific, which were even more horrific and with higher body counts, but those that died weren't "good white Germans," but Japanese, another racial kettle of fish, potentially. IMO, and I'll say it again here, gawd bless Harris and the US Eight Air Force! The Germans were, in a way, lucky, they gave up and surrendered before the US had an atomic weapon. There well may have been the proverbial "Two suns in the sunset" over Berlin, instead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or over all three. Although horrific, the bombings of Dresden and Hamburg should not be either shocking or a surprise to anyone other than someone trying to unsuccessfully wave "a bloody shirt" to bolster a new love of the old. now dead, Third Reich.

Nothing like the smell of dead nazis roasting on an open wreckage-fuelled fire: Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind...


I too am Jeff, I am not exactly mystic, but I share almost all of your sentiments. I think that Harris was not a particularly good strategist - the Americans had a far better idea of how to proceed than he did - but overall I think that the Nazis wrote the book on area bombing, only for it to be thrown at them. Yes, Britain was the first to embark upon bombing of urban areas, but Nazi Germany was the first to use incendiary ordnance.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:14 am

we have reached the famous "three Jeffs" limit that Pyrrho wisely instituted . . .
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:35 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:we have reached the famous "three Jeffs" limit that Pyrrho wisely instituted . . .


I think one more wouldn't hurt :lol:

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:43 pm

Sessions?
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:52 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Sessions?


Nahh, he would recuse himself from posting, which frankly I think is very unfair to SSF. How do you join the forum and then recuse yourself? If he would have recused himself before signing up, I would have said, ‘Thanks, Jeff, but I’m not going to take you.’ It’s extremely unfair — and that’s a mild word — to Phyrro, yourself, to me, to everyone.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:26 pm

LOL
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817


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