The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby The Mystic Jeff » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:38 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:>> " Although horrific, the bombings of Dresden and Hamburg should not be . . . shocking . . . to anyone other than someone trying to unsuccessfully wave 'a bloody shirt' to bolster a new love of the old. now dead, Third Reich"

Shocking is not the word I'd use but I've made clear throughout this thread why I strongly disagree with this general sentiment. It is possible to recognize Allied wrongdoing whilst reserving far harsher judgment for the Third Reich. The way this is stated virtually brackets out concern over elements of Allied conduct as Nazi boosterism.


Well, Stat, Germany surrendered. "ALLIED CONDUCT" would have been a real big deal had Germany won the war. If there is real question about allied conduct, then it may be conduct relating to technical failings of the campaign as opposed to moral relevatism. I have no moral qualms about dead Germans. Why restrict your comments to Germans when a lot more Japanese were killed in horrific raids on Tokyo, Yokohama? The hand wringing over Dresden and Hamburg, if "real" should also mourn the allied dead in Britain and Netherlands.

Rooterdam getting flattened is lost to most, yet the city was almost leveled twice during the war. How do you see this. Stat?

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:57 pm

"Rooterdam getting flattened is lost to most..."

Because it didn't happen. :-P
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:02 pm

The Mystic Jeff wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:>> " Although horrific, the bombings of Dresden and Hamburg should not be . . . shocking . . . to anyone other than someone trying to unsuccessfully wave 'a bloody shirt' to bolster a new love of the old. now dead, Third Reich"

Shocking is not the word I'd use but I've made clear throughout this thread why I strongly disagree with this general sentiment. It is possible to recognize Allied wrongdoing whilst reserving far harsher judgment for the Third Reich. The way this is stated virtually brackets out concern over elements of Allied conduct as Nazi boosterism.


Well, Stat, Germany surrendered. "ALLIED CONDUCT" would have been a real big deal had Germany won the war.

Not because of area bombings of cities. This is reviewed at length in the thread. There were actions taken by the Allies that are not IMO defensible; by far most of their actions are defensible - more so, laudable - and were necessary to winning the war. But not all of them.

The Mystic Jeff wrote:If there is real question about allied conduct, then it may be conduct relating to technical failings of the campaign as opposed to moral relevatism.

Decrying the targeting of civilians by different country's militaries is not a matter of moral relativism.

The Mystic Jeff wrote:Why restrict your comments to Germans when a lot more Japanese were killed in horrific raids on Tokyo, Yokohama? The hand wringing over Dresden and Hamburg, if "real" should also mourn the allied dead in Britain and Netherlands.

First of all, understanding military actions and making comparisons among them is hardly hand-wringing. Second, please, let's not leap to conclusions: though Tokyo/Yokohama and Nagasaki/Hiroshima are tangents, I seem to have not restricted my comments regarding the bombings of these cities.

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26916&p=521216&hilit=japan#p521216
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26916&p=521193&hilit=japan#p521193
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26916&p=519532&hilit=japan#p519532
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26916&p=560102&hilit=tokyo#p560102
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25311&p=454631&hilit=tokyo#p454631
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25311&p=454616&hilit=tokyo#p454616
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25311&p=454616&hilit=tokyo#p454616

Third, what does this refer to, that I've written or not written - "should also mourn the allied dead in Britain and Netherlands"?

The Mystic Jeff wrote:Rooterdam getting flattened is lost to most, yet the city was almost leveled twice during the war. How do you see this. Stat?

Discussed early in the thread. I see the bombing of Rotterdam, with over 1000 civilian dead and the city center heavily damaged, as a war crime committed by the Nazis.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:08 pm

Nice to see this thread up and running again...

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:41 pm

I think that Mystic Jeff is confusing those who take issue with the strategic logic behind the course of action taken by Harris, and those who attempt to use the bombing campaigns as a way of drawing equivalence between the Nazi State and the Allies. the former are largely normal readers of history, while the latter are to a man deniers.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:32 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:I think that Mystic Jeff is confusing those who take issue with the strategic logic behind the course of action taken by Harris, and those who attempt to use the bombing campaigns as a way of drawing equivalence between the Nazi State and the Allies. the former are largely normal readers of history, while the latter are to a man deniers.

Good point. The thing is that the issues are debatable. Not on grounds of ideology or apologia. The debate involves 1) efficacy - what strategy and methods would have been most effective? and 2) standards and international law - what strategy and methods should be permissible in legally waging war?

I really recommend Overy's big book on this. It is informative and raises arguments that need to be thought through. It certainly changed my perspective on a number of things.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby The Mystic Jeff » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:19 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
The Mystic Jeff wrote:Someone here suggested I Comment on this thread, having been part of "discussing" it elsewhere. In that context, it was part of a Nazi/nazi symp deal wringing hands over "the good white Germans" that died in Dresden and Hamburg.
.





I can't say I give a "well done" on this. Strat air has a place in that fight, but I think very badly executed and naively used at a criminally negligent cost to air crews and equipment.


The Brits did have problem that made their night bombing difficult and costly, like the unreliable "OBOE" navigation and bomb release system employing two radio signals that when signals converged (intersected), it could give a geographical location of the aircraft receiving the signals, or a location indicating the place to drop bombs. The Germans also had reasonably effective night fighter capability, so all things considered, losses were bound to be high. The choice of options were limited, so it was "go with what you know" and hope losses did not exceed replacement capacity of either RAF or 8th Air Force. My understanding of target selection is that the British used a list of German cities created during the Battle of Britain in 1940-41, so for all practical purposes, the fate of Dresden and Hamburg were decided when bombs were still falling on London. Remember, the concept of strategic bombing was untested, and clearly needed "improvement."

IT'S Okay, balmoral95, I wasn't looking for anyone saying "well done." I won't even ask what happened to balmorals 1-94. :lol:

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby The Mystic Jeff » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:40 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Interestingly, my father was on a battleship involved in the shelling of Japan, including Tokyo. He related that by summer 1945 the US Navy was able to attack Japanese cities with impunity, the Japanese unable to offer meaningful defense. What I've read confirms this. To this day he is utterly convinced that the bombings of civilian areas were war crimes and that, as a sailor in the USN, he was guilty of such.


Interesting, Stat, and it's obvious you've gone over this extensively. My Father was on a transport vessel that brought a bombing assessment crew to Nagasaki about a month after the Japanese surrender. No crew were allowed off the ship, which anchored in the harbor, yet there was the nightly stink of corpses they could smell, and as he said, the place appeared devastated. His last trip formed his views of nuclear warfare, and when neighbors nervously approached him to get his help building a fallout shelter during the Cuban Missile Crisis, he laughed and said the government could come and bury us if there was a nuclear war. He wasn't going to do that for them. My dad also had a couple of ships shot out from underneath him, and he was a whole lot less forgiving about bombing the Japanese.

I believe there was a racial element to the fire bombing and nuclear bombings...they were, after all "dirty, yellow Japs." Policy logic seemed to work when interning them, so why not when bombing them? If it had been Europe, got a feeling a "demonstration detonation" would have preceded dropping a nuke on Berlin.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby The Mystic Jeff » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:50 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
The Mystic Jeff wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:>>





Third, what does this refer to, that I've written or not written - "should also mourn the allied dead in Britain and Netherlands"?


Seems whenever the neo-nazi or nazi sypm crowd cry out about Dresden and Hamburg, no mention of British and other allied dead due to German bombing are ever mentioned, I guess leaving someone with the impression the "good white German dead" are worth more tears than British. My personal thought is this: If you want to avoid Dresdens, Hamburgs or Tokyos/Yokohamas. don't start or fight a war. Excrement will, definitely, occur. Sow the wind; reap the whirlwind.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:05 pm

The Mystic Jeff wrote:I believe there was a racial element to the fire bombing and nuclear bombings...they were, after all "dirty, yellow Japs." Policy logic seemed to work when interning them, so why not when bombing them? If it had been Europe, got a feeling a "demonstration detonation" would have preceded dropping a nuke on Berlin.

Absolutely.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:22 pm

The Mystic Jeff wrote:eems whenever the neo-nazi or nazi sypm crowd cry out about Dresden and Hamburg, no mention of British and other allied dead due to German bombing are ever mentioned, I guess leaving someone with the impression the "good white German dead" are worth more tears than British.

That is true of apologists for the Nazis, which I am not by any means. My revulsion toward the Nazis comes in part, but not wholly, from the havoc and carnage their war caused - and what this meant for people, not only people in Europe. My thoughts about the bombing campaign have nothing to do with tu quoque or "on the other hand" or rationalizing Nazi crimes but rather they concern a search for standards that we can collectively try making stick.

I believe that there should be a high bar for a country to go to war. IMO the Allied cause in WWII is an easy case. Not even a close call. The Nazis had to be defeated and the Third Reich taken apart - and, unfortunately, war was the only possible way to do that. Back to my father for a moment, his motivation for volunteering as a teenager was to help stop Hitler. He didn't think things through clearly enough, because he volunteered for the Navy and wound up in the Pacific. Which fed his lifelong sense of irony . . . but also speaks to his clarity of motive even at 18 years of age. The bombing of Tokyo, on the other hand, horrified him until the end of his life.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby The Mystic Jeff » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:08 pm

I've seen ME262s in flight and up close several times. The ME262 Project was based at Paine Field, near Everett, WA where Boeing builds and tests 747s, 67s, 77s and 87s. They'd take off and land literally overhead of where I worked, and more than once had a chill up my spine seeing an ME262 landing overhead when sitting at a stop light on the way home. The team did a great job with the 262s. Another place to look: TY for the nostalgia.

http://www.airspacemag.com/military-avi ... -12695578/[/quote]

Here is a bit of a view of where I'd see the ME262s on approach. The plane in this shot didn't make the field.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrvrJJrT4WU

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby The Mystic Jeff » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:23 pm

That is true of apologists for the Nazis, which I am not by any means. My revulsion toward the Nazis comes in part, but not wholly, from the havoc and carnage their war caused - and what this meant for people, not only people in Europe. My thoughts about the bombing campaign have nothing to do with tu quoque or "on the other hand" or rationalizing Nazi crimes but rather they concern a search for standards that we can collectively try making stick.

I believe that there should be a high bar for a country to go to war. IMO the Allied cause in WWII is an easy case. Not even a close call. The Nazis had to be defeated and the Third Reich taken apart - and, unfortunately, war was the only possible way to do that. Back to my father for a moment, his motivation for volunteering as a teenager was to help stop Hitler. He didn't think things through clearly enough, because he volunteered for the Navy and wound up in the Pacific. Which fed his lifelong sense of irony . . . but also speaks to his clarity of motive even at 18 years of age. The bombing of Tokyo, on the other hand, horrified him until the end of his life.[/quote]

As to my Dad, a bit reversed from yours. He was a merchant sailor, "sparks", and started shipping out of West Coast ports to avoid the Atlantic before 1941 and getting sunk by Germans. He lost several friends and former shipmates in 1940. On Dec. 8, 1941, he was on an oil tanker in Cebu City, Philippines. The ship had offloaded and was riding empty. As a radio operator, he'd DX stations for music, late local time and actually heard a Morse message "Air raid, Pearl Harbor, this is no drill" as he tuned around. He woke the ship's captain and preparations were started to get underway. The ship was torpedoed a day out of Cebu. Because it was a tanker, empty, the ship remained afloat, eventually making it back to Long Beach, CA. A case of "best thought plans gone awry" in his words. He wasn't so lucky later in the war. The Pacific is a very big ocean, and a life raft ungawdly small. I can understand your father's POV, too.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Balmoral95 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:46 pm

The Mystic Jeff wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
The Mystic Jeff wrote:Someone here suggested I Comment on this thread, having been part of "discussing" it elsewhere. In that context, it was part of a Nazi/nazi symp deal wringing hands over "the good white Germans" that died in Dresden and Hamburg.
.


IT'S Okay, balmoral95, I wasn't looking for anyone saying "well done." I won't even ask what happened to balmorals 1-94. :lol:


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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:24 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: He didn't think things through clearly enough, because he volunteered for the Navy and wound up in the Pacific. Which fed his lifelong sense of irony . . . but also speaks to his clarity of motive even at 18 years of age.


it's alright. The Japs were just as bad as the Nazis.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Balsamo » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:02 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
The Mystic Jeff wrote:I believe there was a racial element to the fire bombing and nuclear bombings...they were, after all "dirty, yellow Japs." Policy logic seemed to work when interning them, so why not when bombing them? If it had been Europe, got a feeling a "demonstration detonation" would have preceded dropping a nuke on Berlin.

Absolutely.


Absolutely what?
The Bomb was conceived to be used on Berlin as the target.
The Nazis just surrendered too soon. The N-Bomb was just not ready.

PS: Mystic Jeff, did you take some time to read the first 8 pages before posting?

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Balmoral95 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:12 am

Balsamo wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
The Mystic Jeff wrote:I believe there was a racial element to the fire bombing and nuclear bombings...they were, after all "dirty, yellow Japs." Policy logic seemed to work when interning them, so why not when bombing them? If it had been Europe, got a feeling a "demonstration detonation" would have preceded dropping a nuke on Berlin.

Absolutely.


Absolutely what?
The Bomb was conceived to be used on Berlin as the target.
The Nazis just surrendered too soon. The N-Bomb was just not ready.

PS: Mystic Jeff, did you take some time to read the first 8 pages before posting?


Perhaps source it rather than expect that... try a link? You might get read?

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:33 am

IIRC as early as 1943 Japan was presumed to be the target and various reasons for not using the bomb on Germany were given, despite the early impetus for development. I've not read that Berlin was thought to be the target. The B-29, the only aircraft that could deliver the A-bomb, was never intended for the European theater. I can't find my links on this this morning but will scrounge around later.

PS - links are in "Hiroshima" folder duh (unconscious motivation is not discussed in what I have - but it's like still seeing ethnic slurs like "Japs" used):
https://arxiv.org/html/physics/0210058
https://ieer.org/resource/commentary/always-the-target/
http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/tag/counterfactuals/
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:49 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:IIRC as early as 1943 Japan was presumed to be the target and various reasons for not using the bomb on Germany were given, despite the early impetus for development. I've not read that Berlin was thought to be the target. The B-29, the only aircraft that could deliver the A-bomb, was never intended for the European theater. I can't find my links on this this morning but will scrounge around later.

PS - links are in "Hiroshima" folder duh (unconscious motivation is not discussed in what I have - but it's like still seeing ethnic slurs like "Japs" used):
https://arxiv.org/html/physics/0210058
https://ieer.org/resource/commentary/always-the-target/
http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/tag/counterfactuals/


Interesting. I can also see something of an unconscious desire not to detonate such a weapon on European soil.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:14 pm

IIRC historians generally say that there's no written documentation of racist considerations. That's not good enough because racism draws mental maps of the world and sets limits and opens up possibilities, so to speak.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Balsamo » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:24 pm

Well, the world - even the free one - was still profoundly racist in those days.
As for slurry terms, in Europe, the Germans had their share: boche, fritz, schleu (or Chleuh), frize, Huns, Teutons... Compared to some of them, Japs or Nips are quite nice.
Seriously, i doubt that had the circumstances been different - from a military point of view - and had the bomb been ready in time, that there would have had any hesitation to drop it on Berlin.

But of course, it is pure speculation as the first test took place two months after Germany's surrender.

From what i read in those great links, there were suggestions to try it FIRST on the Japanese in case it did not exploded, for pure security reasons (as Japan did not have the scientists to make anything out of it).

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:50 pm

Balsamo wrote:Well, the world - even the free one - was still profoundly racist in those days.

That was the question, though, wasn't it? It wasn't - with these moving goalposts - to compare eras.

Balsamo wrote:As for slurry terms, in Europe, the Germans had their share: boche, fritz, schleu (or Chleuh), frize, Huns, Teutons... Compared to some of them, Japs or Nips are quite nice.

You're missing my point. That note referred to this thread. Probably why I wrote "still." Scroll up.

Balsamo wrote:Seriously, i doubt that had the circumstances been different - from a military point of view - and had the bomb been ready in time, that there would have had any hesitation to drop it on Berlin.

Except the documentation says otherwise. Besides that, fine.

Balsamo wrote:But of course, it is pure speculation as the first test took place two months after Germany's surrender.

The B-29 problem still exists.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Balsamo » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:26 pm

Statmec:
Except the documentation says otherwise. Besides that, fine.


The documents say mostly that Japan was a better choice, show that there were debate and that opinions tend to chose Japan by 1944.
This is why i said that in other circumstances.
Now such a this one:
the 1944 Aide-memoire of Roosevelt and Churchill where they agreed that "when a 'bomb' is finally available, it might perhaps, after mature consideration, be used against the Japanese."

also shows that there was still a choice to be made at that time. There were many reasons why Japan was a safest choice, the first being not to have to consult with the Russians, not to take the risk of a failure (as mentioned in 1943 documents), not to expose the fighting troops to unknown risks, as it was clear that Germany had to be invaded and occupied.
Now the third document, that is General Groves record, here:
whether there was any indication of anyone flinching from the use of the [atomic bomb]. I stated that I had heard no rumors to that effect. I expressed my views as to what a complete mess any such action would make of everything including the reputations of everyone who had authorized or urged or even permitted the work in the first place. It was agreed that the effect of the defeat of Germany would remove the race element from the picture but would not remove the necessity for going ahead ."

Well it is dated March 1945, and again, at that time, the use of Nuke on Germany would have produced more problems than advantages.

Maybe i was not that clear, my sole disagreement was that Japan was chosen only because they were Yellow little men. It was chosen after Mature considerations, not only on Racial ones.
And by the time the bomb was ready, there were just no choice anymore.
But it is also a fact that the whole project was launched with Germany in mind. The so called "race for the bomb" was against the Nazis, the scientists who participated also had Germany in mind while working on the project, etc.

I guess that the whole discussion started from Mystic Jeff post on the so called "indifference" toward the bombing of Japan, supposedly because of racial consideration.
This is quite absurd.
I do not want to repeat myself, but the whole issue was discussed from various perspectives, one of them being the "legality" of the use of strategic bombing.
While as we have seen, Great Britain had signed the "Roosevelt agreement" and promised NOT to use strategic bombings, a document also signed by Nazi Germany, and we have seen that it was Great Britain that first broke its word.
Now, Japan did not signed any such document, and was the first to actually use "Strategic bombing" against Chinese cities even before World war 2, and by doing this clearly chose not to follow the accepted "spirit" and to take its distance with the international norms and initiatives.
By doing this, Japan exposed itself to get its money back so to speak.
The international protests of 1937 give a good example of what that "spirit" (or should i say stance) regarding strategic bombings was.

This is why we are tempted to consider the Strategic bombings of the German cities in the same way: that is as a retaliation. But in the case of Germany, it is just not true. Warsaw or Rotterdam were NOT strategic bombings, but tactical ones. The "Blitz" was, but it took place after months of official complains of British bombings of German and Italian cities that were strategic ones.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:56 pm

Balsamo wrote:Statmec:
Except the documentation says otherwise. Besides that, fine.


The documents say mostly that Japan was a better choice, show that there were debate and that opinions tend to chose Japan by 1944.
This is why i said that in other circumstances.

Which is different to what you said. You said the plans were all aimed at Germany.

The rest is our speculation. Which is what I said. (Mine is based on general knowledge of the period, historical works like David M Kennedy's book Freedom from Fear, and "family history.")

Balsamo wrote:Maybe i was not that clear, my sole disagreement was that Japan was chosen only because they were Yellow little men.

Which no one wrote: The Mystic Jeff wrote, "I believe there was a racial element to the fire bombing and nuclear bombings," which is very far from what you now paraphrase as "Japan was chosen only" on a racial basis. "An element" is almost by definition not "chosen only." I don't want to speak for The Mystic Jeff, I can only say how I interpret what he posted, on the one hand, I what I meant, on the other.

Balsamo wrote:And by the time the bomb was ready, there were just no choice anymore.

Again, that is not what you wrote. You wrote, "The Bomb was conceived to be used on Berlin as the target. The Nazis just surrendered too soon. The N-Bomb was just not ready." But by 1943 the Americans had Japan, not Germany, in view. You did not write this, which is what the sources I linked to show.

Balsamo wrote:But it is also a fact that the whole project was launched with Germany in mind. The so called "race for the bomb" was against the Nazis, the scientists who participated also had Germany in mind while working on the project, etc.

Which no one, AFAIK, disputes. (The rest of your post, insofar as I grasp it, isn't about this topic.)
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Balsamo » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:46 pm

Statmec:

Which is different to what you said. You said the plans were all aimed at Germany.


That was before you posted your interesting links... ;)
And inspired from what i knew about the Manhattan project from the scientists perspectives. They mostly had Nazi Germany in mind. The preparation of the project also took place even before the USA were at war with Japan. The Nuclear Race was against Germany, not Japan.
The idea of using this energy as a weapon also pre-date the war with Japan. It involved mostly European, often Jews, scientist who were already working on the possibility of making a nuclear bomb. It is those scientist who initiated the project, and with Hitler not Hiro Hito in mind.
This nuclear program will be approved by Roosevelt in October 1941. So yes the project was clearly aimed at Germany.
Oh and part of the Uranium came from the Belgian Congo (along with Canada).

But i was not aware of the stories inside the US government and military, so thank for your link, very instructive.
But then again, i saw no document who excluded Germany from being a target, especially on "racial" consideration, only documents who said it would maybe be a better idea to strike Japan.

Which no one wrote: The Mystic Jeff wrote, "I believe there was a racial element to the fire bombing and nuclear bombings," which is very far from what you now paraphrase as "Japan was chosen only" on a racial basis.


Very different, really?
It seemed to me that Mystic Jeff quite heavily insists on the opposition between the "Good white German" and the Japanese, all the way down to the use of the atomic bomb.
Europeans who had considered the Germans, even civilians, as "Good" is still to be found outside the fascist mobs.

Here is what Mystic Jeff wrote:
Of course, nothing was said about US bombing campaigns in the Pacific, which were even more horrific and with higher body counts, but those that died weren't "good white Germans," but Japanese, another racial kettle of fish, potentially.

Quite different from "i believe there was a racial element to..." especially since he also added "After all, they were "dirty yellow japs"! (again vs "Good white Germans").

I admit that the only thing that did not piss me of reading his "opening post" was his reference to Pink Floyd, "the Final cut" (two suns in the sunset"). Love that album! :D

So i guess i interpreted his post in a different way, ;)

Again, that is not what you wrote. You wrote, "The Bomb was conceived to be used on Berlin as the target. The Nazis just surrendered too soon. The N-Bomb was just not ready." But by 1943 the Americans had Japan, not Germany, in view. You did not write this, which is what the sources I linked to show.


Of course, not since i had not read the articles you posted yet... :lol:
But contrary to those subliminal racial consideration, the documents give quite a very valid point not to use it against Germany first, but Japan instead.
But i stick to my opinion (speculation) that had the Red Army been stopped let's say in the Ukraine, and the western allies stuck on the Rhine (or in Normandy), that is Germany holding their lines on both front, they would have been no hesitation to drop a Nuke (even maybe only the second one) on Berlin, as this is what the "Scientific Panel" would have voted for, Germans being "Good white" or not.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:56 pm

Balsamo wrote:Statmec:

Which is different to what you said. You said the plans were all aimed at Germany.


That was before you posted your interesting links... ;)
And inspired from what i knew about the Manhattan project from the scientists perspectives. They mostly had Nazi Germany in mind. The preparation of the project also took place even before the USA were at war with Japan. The Nuclear Race was against Germany, not Japan.
The idea of using this energy as a weapon also pre-date the war with Japan. It involved mostly European, often Jews, scientist who were already working on the possibility of making a nuclear bomb. It is those scientist who initiated the project, and with Hitler not Hiro Hito in mind.
This nuclear program will be approved by Roosevelt in October 1941. So yes the project was clearly aimed at Germany.
Oh and part of the Uranium came from the Belgian Congo (along with Canada).

But i was not aware of the stories inside the US government and military, so thank for your link, very instructive.
But then again, i saw no document who excluded Germany from being a target, especially on "racial" consideration, only documents who said it would maybe be a better idea to strike Japan.

Actually, the sources make the point that the target, as of 1943, was Japan, contrary to your assertions. And the facts that only B-29s could carry the A-bomb and that the B-29 was not meant for the European theater needs to be considered.

Balsamo wrote:
Which no one wrote: The Mystic Jeff wrote, "I believe there was a racial element to the fire bombing and nuclear bombings," which is very far from what you now paraphrase as "Japan was chosen only" on a racial basis.


Very different, really?

How you can get from "element of" to "chosen only" remains mysterious. None of the rest of what you quote or say helps get around this rather large point. Again, let's let The Mystic Jeff explain his own point. Speaking for myself, I didn't mean "chosen only"; I replied to The Mystic Jeff's point about an "element of."

Balsamo wrote:Of course, not since i had not read the articles you posted yet... :lol:

But that was my point: your post was in error.

Balsamo wrote:But contrary to those subliminal racial consideration, the documents give quite a very valid point not to use it against Germany first, but Japan instead.

Again, that's not in dispute. But you can't see that because you want to misinterpret the prior discussion.

Balsamo wrote:But i stick to my opinion

Of course.

This is probably more helpful to my understanding of all this, since your post - at least, as we go round in circles, it seems pertinent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby The Mystic Jeff » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:04 pm

Replies in-line:
Balsamo wrote:Statmec:

Which is different to what you said. You said the plans were all aimed at Germany.


That was before you posted your interesting links... ;)
And inspired from what i knew about the Manhattan project from the scientists perspectives. They mostly had Nazi Germany in mind. The preparation of the project also took place even before the USA were at war with Japan. The Nuclear Race was against Germany, not Japan.
The idea of using this energy as a weapon also pre-date the war with Japan. It involved mostly European, often Jews, scientist who were already working on the possibility of making a nuclear bomb. It is those scientist who initiated the project, and with Hitler not Hiro Hito in mind.
This nuclear program will be approved by Roosevelt in October 1941. So yes the project was clearly aimed at Germany.
Oh and part of the Uranium came from the Belgian Congo (along with Canada).

But i was not aware of the stories inside the US government and military, so thank for your link, very instructive.
But then again, i saw no document who excluded Germany from being a target, especially on "racial" consideration, only documents who said it would maybe be a better idea to strike Japan.

Which no one wrote: The Mystic Jeff wrote, "I believe there was a racial element to the fire bombing and nuclear bombings," which is very far from what you now paraphrase as "Japan was chosen only" on a racial basis.


The sources Stat M provided were interesting to say the least. Although, I still insist there were racist element in the decisions made, again referencing the wholesale ignorance of Constitutional rights of Japanese-American citizens that still echo,IMO, in the storm of policy matters today. German-Americans were not rounded up wholesale and interned as security threat until after Japan surrendered, Japanese-Americans were.

Very different, really?
It seemed to me that Mystic Jeff quite heavily insists on the opposition between the "Good white German" and the Japanese, all the way down to the use of the atomic bomb.
Europeans who had considered the Germans, even civilians, as "Good" is still to be found outside the fascist mobs.


This observation is correct, and "as "Good" is still to be found outside the fascist mobs." is one reason I wrote it. I've read and been involved in too many discussion not to draw the distinction.

Here is what Mystic Jeff wrote:
Of course, nothing was said about US bombing campaigns in the Pacific, which were even more horrific and with higher body counts, but those that died weren't "good white Germans," but Japanese, another racial kettle of fish, potentially.

Quite different from "i believe there was a racial element to..." especially since he also added "After all, they were "dirty yellow japs"! (again vs "Good white Germans").

I admit that the only thing that did not piss me of reading his "opening post" was his reference to Pink Floyd, "the Final cut" (two suns in the sunset"). Love that album! :D

Wow, congrats for getting the reference to "The Final Cut."

So i guess i interpreted his post in a different way, ;)

Hmmm.

Again, that is not what you wrote. You wrote, "The Bomb was conceived to be used on Berlin as the target. The Nazis just surrendered too soon. The N-Bomb was just not ready." But by 1943 the Americans had Japan, not Germany, in view. You did not write this, which is what the sources I linked to show.


Of course, not since i had not read the articles you posted yet... :lol:
But contrary to those subliminal racial consideration, the documents give quite a very valid point not to use it against Germany first, but Japan instead.
But i stick to my opinion (speculation) that had the Red Army been stopped let's say in the Ukraine, and the western allies stuck on the Rhine (or in Normandy), that is Germany holding their lines on both front, they would have been no hesitation to drop a Nuke (even maybe only the second one) on Berlin, as this is what the "Scientific Panel" would have voted for, Germans being "Good white" or not.


I still contend decisions were more easily made on "the dirty Japs" before or after the fact of the military outcome in the European Theatre. But it's also possible, given a static front situation and bomb availability, They MAY have lit up Berlin, but I'll also bet there would have been a lot of angst and hand wringing before the fact, despite the reason Manhattan Proj. was started. I don't believe a choice of aircraft would have been any issue. If not using a Lancaster (as another suggested), transfer of a few B-29s to Europe wouldn't have been a big deal. And nothing stated here changes my point of view about Dresden or Hamburg catching it between the eyes.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:11 pm

The point historians make about the B-29s is simply that the plan wasn't to have them in Europe - not that they couldn't have gone there - as a consideration of what was planned, not of what could have been done. It's really part of the 1943 chain of thinking: the main target was by that time Japan, contrary to Balsamo's original point. (I should amend this: I don't know this for fact but what I read is that only B-29s could handle the A-bomb.)

Your point about Japanese-American internments is a good one about the context.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby The Mystic Jeff » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:22 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balsamo wrote:Statmec:



Balsamo wrote:
Which no one wrote: The Mystic Jeff wrote, "I believe there was a racial element to the fire bombing and nuclear bombings," which is very far from what you now paraphrase as "Japan was chosen only" on a racial basis.


Very different, really?

How you can get from "element of" to "chosen only" remains mysterious. None of the rest of what you quote or say helps get around this rather large point. Again, let's let The Mystic Jeff explain his own point. Speaking for myself, I didn't mean "chosen only"; I replied to The Mystic Jeff's point about an "element of."

Thanks, Stat M. The point was, race and how "yellow Japs" were viewed in America weren't the sole basis for for bombing campaigns and the dropping of nuclear weapons, but I do feel it "made it easier". I'll simply note how your father felt, as you related. Clearly, race didn't enter his views, but do consider if he felt as he did, how many other thousands of soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines might feel as he did, so a justification push, appealing to racism is a cheap but effective ploy used to this day. In War, will is an important factor, and Americans, despite having a shorter war than their European allies, were, by all accounts getting "war weary" by 1945. So a little racism could go a long way to bolster troops in the field and feed the hearts and minds of the folks on "the home front." Hence 'element of". Doesn't make anything "right," it just is what it was. Unlike most Americans, I'm of an age and place where I grew up around kids that were born in internment camps and had parents that lost everything because the were of Japanese descent. Wounds of that betrayal of our own citizens are still healing today.

Balsamo wrote:But contrary to those subliminal racial consideration, the documents give quite a very valid point not to use it against Germany first, but Japan instead.

Again, that's not in dispute. But you can't see that because you want to misinterpret the prior discussion.

Balsamo wrote:But i stick to my opinion

Of course.

This is probably more helpful to my understanding of all this, since your post - at least, as we go round in circles, it seems pertinent:

Regardless, this is and has been, obviously, an interesting and spirited discussion.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby The Mystic Jeff » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:27 pm

[

[/quote]IT'S Okay, balmoral95, I wasn't looking for anyone saying "well done." I won't even ask what happened to balmorals 1-94. :lol:[/quote][/quote]

Wholly owned subsidiaries of Xcalibur, GmbH.[/quote]

Trust balmorals1-94 weren't over-engineered. :lol:

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Balsamo » Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:06 am

Statmec:

How you can get from "element of" to "chosen only" remains mysterious.


By not sticking to one quote, and interpreting all the posts written by Mystic Jeff...quite simple.

Actually, the sources make the point that the target, as of 1943, was Japan, contrary to your assertions. And the facts that only B-29s could carry the A-bomb and that the B-29 was not meant for the European theater needs to be considered.


First, the sources are three documents. None of them by itself seems to be definitive. The first one wisely advice to target Japan - preferably a concentration of ships on the sea - in order to prevent the enemy - Germany - to get access to the technology if things were to do wrong.
Did that happen? No, so no decision to strike.
Sorry to remind that by 1943, all those discussions were purely theoretical as there were no bomb ready yet.
No bomb, no official target!

This is why according the the records of 1944, there were still discussion going. Hence, the "after mature consideration, it would be better to strike Japan". Again, purely theoretical, as no bomb, no official target.
By 1945, there no need for further debate on who to strike.

As for the B-29, it would have taken 24-48 hours to transfer it to a British airfield, in case of need.

There is nothing in those three documents that can confirm 100% that Germany was excluded form the Nuclear strike to come WHEN the bomb was to be ready. That Japan was preferred for security reason in 1943 is one thing, but had the bomb been ready by then, there is nothing that indicates that a German target would not have been next, if the situation of the front would have justified it.

But that was my point: your post was in error.


My post lacked some information. It does not change the fact that the whole enterprise was launched with Nazi Germany in mind, as it involved nations that were not at war with Japan when it all started. Those are facts. Uranium was shipped from the Belgian Congo, "Heavy water" was bought from Norway as soon as 1940, and the work of French Joliot-Curie was already meant to create a "chain reaction" from a bomb.
The US officially accepted to conduct the program in October 1941 by regrouping all the scientists in the States. At this stage, there was only Nazi Germany in mind. So when i said "conceived", that the stage of conception, i was not that much in "error" as you say.
Did i lack information and sources? of course. I still does. But then we still all are, or so it seems.

But you can't see that because you want to misinterpret the prior discussion.


Which discussion am i supposed to have misinterpreted? The topic is about the Bombing campaign on Germany.
I may have misinterpreted your "Absolutely" though, but is this the topic?

Sorry if i was wrong interpreting the "topic" as the "Nuke was launched on Japan because of racial consideration", as it is as i understood it. And this is what i reacted to.
That does not make me being wrong by saying that the whole enterprise was launched in the perspective of the war with Nazi Germany.

Just saw Mystic Jeff wrote:
I still contend decisions were more easily made on "the dirty Japs" before or after the fact of the military outcome in the European Theatre.


Well thank you for outlining my (mis)-interpretation of the topic.
And this is what i disagree with. The Allies were bombing German cities to death - sometimes like 30.000 victims an air raid. There were no racial consideration at all, between bombing the "dirty Japs" or the "evil Boches, Chleuhs, Fritz, Nazis Huns, or whatever slurry name you choose. Had the German cities been made of bamboo and wood, the death tolls would have been similar.

The reasons were security, strategic, diplomatic whatever, but not racial at all.

This is how i understood the "topic" and what i reacted to.

Mystic Jeff:
I don't believe a choice of aircraft would have been any issue. If not using a Lancaster (as another suggested), transfer of a few B-29s to Europe wouldn't have been a big deal.


Agree.

Statmec:
The point historians make about the B-29s is simply that the plan wasn't to have them in Europe - not that they couldn't have gone there - as a consideration of what was planned, not of what could have been done.


Well that is kind of "over-interprating" the sources.
Of course there were no plan, for the simple reason that there were no concrete plan - that is no decision made -, only theoretical ones, that is "What are we going to do when the new bomb is ready ?"
Quite the contrary, as those few documents shows that there was still a discussion going on.
The fact that the B-29 was exclusively used on the far eastern front does not mean that it could not have been used on the European theater if there were a need.
Again, none of the documents shows a official plan, a final decision...they were all theoretical at that time.

It's really part of the 1943 chain of thinking: the main target was by that time Japan, contrary to Balsamo's original point.


I doubt this chain of thinking was shared by the scientists working on the project, that is basically all. And without them, there would not have been any final decision to make.
In the end, "THEY" wanted to strike a fleet at sea, and they stroke two cities.

Your point about Japanese-American internments is a good one about the context.


In what sense?
I must have missed it.
But i know you know that all foreign resident in the UK suspected of potential tight with Germany were interned as well, the same in every belligerent countries, including the poor German Jews stuck in Belgium, France, who were the first to be deported/surrendered to the Nazis...
Less tragically, British residents in Italy were also arrested...

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:58 am

Watch the video.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby The Mystic Jeff » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:16 pm

Your point about Japanese-American internments is a good one about the context.


In what sense?
I must have missed it.
But i know you know that all foreign resident in the UK suspected of potential tight with Germany were interned as well, the same in every belligerent countries, including the poor German Jews stuck in Belgium, France, who were the first to be deported/surrendered to the Nazis...
Less tragically, British residents in Italy were also arrested...[/quote]

Britain handled its enemy aliens a little differently than in the states. Executive Order 9066, signed by FDR, was aimed exclusively at issei—immigrants from Japan, who were precluded from U.S. citizenship by law—and nisei, their children, who were U.S. citizens by birth. Responsibility was given to the military commander in the Western US, Gen John Dewitt who said," “A Jap’s a Jap. They are a dangerous element, whether loyal or not.” Then around127,000 japanese Americans were sent off to internment camps, inland from the West coast.

Supreme Court ruled that such orders were permissible in wartime (with three justices dissenting, bitterly) in 1944, after the military situation had "stabilized." Those interned were forced to give up and leave virtually everything behind: homes. businesses, farms. When finally released on March of 1946, most came back to their previous homes to find nothing. 9066 was race based, period. There were no wholesale roundups of Italian- or German-Americans. And given 9066 became "official government policy" 48 hours after Pearl harbor, and despite a lack of evidence, it was enthusiastically carried out as a "get back" on "those dirty Japs." I feel there was carry over into "humans vs subhumans(Japanese)" when it came to war planning in the Pacific Theatre. That was my point. If you are willing to imprison and disenfranchise people of a certain race wholesale, finding them disloyal with no evidence, could you think about how the same level of thinking could be applied to a military plan?

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Balsamo » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:32 pm

The Mystic Jeff wrote:
Your point about Japanese-American internments is a good one about the context.


In what sense?
I must have missed it.
But i know you know that all foreign resident in the UK suspected of potential tight with Germany were interned as well, the same in every belligerent countries, including the poor German Jews stuck in Belgium, France, who were the first to be deported/surrendered to the Nazis...
Less tragically, British residents in Italy were also arrested...


Britain handled its enemy aliens a little differently than in the states. Executive Order 9066, signed by FDR, was aimed exclusively at issei—immigrants from Japan, who were precluded from U.S. citizenship by law—and nisei, their children, who were U.S. citizens by birth. Responsibility was given to the military commander in the Western US, Gen John Dewitt who said," “A Jap’s a Jap. They are a dangerous element, whether loyal or not.” Then around127,000 japanese Americans were sent off to internment camps, inland from the West coast.

Supreme Court ruled that such orders were permissible in wartime (with three justices dissenting, bitterly) in 1944, after the military situation had "stabilized." Those interned were forced to give up and leave virtually everything behind: homes. businesses, farms. When finally released on March of 1946, most came back to their previous homes to find nothing. 9066 was race based, period. There were no wholesale roundups of Italian- or German-Americans. And given 9066 became "official government policy" 48 hours after Pearl harbor, and despite a lack of evidence, it was enthusiastically carried out as a "get back" on "those dirty Japs." I feel there was carry over into "humans vs subhumans(Japanese)" when it came to war planning in the Pacific Theatre. That was my point. If you are willing to imprison and disenfranchise people of a certain race wholesale, finding them disloyal with no evidence, could you think about how the same level of thinking could be applied to a military plan?
[/quote]


Thank you Mystic Jeff for all those details.
I did not know that they had been completely expropriated from all their goods, and that even the US citizens among them lost everything.
Well this is clearly race prejudice - which was unfortunately obvious in the western world, as i said - even without race prejudice, similar actions existed in Europe as well. My German grand father family were actually living in Italy for generations, and they too were expelled and forced to leave their wealth behind, long before Hitler.

The situation of the German Jews who fled Nazism both to Belgium and France is even worse, as the 1940 authorities of both countries chose to focus on their German nationalities more than on their Judaism. Within 24 hours, the Belgian authority secretly rounded them up and transfer them to France - through what is known as "Phantom trains".
It is not well known, but even the Belgian Jewish organization saw those German Jews more as German than as Jews, so high was the hatred of Germany in Belgium since World war 1!

Back to Executive 9066, i also think that - along and complementary to obvious racial considerations - was the fact that Japan did attack the USA and killed Americans ( hence the "get back effect), while for a long time, the European war was seen as a purely European matter.
Add to that the barbarity of the Japanese military behavior and the well known massacres of civilians in China since 1937, their disregards of any norms regarding the PoW's, the nature of Japan political regime, and the fact that most were living in coastal zones, the West Coast (seen as a line of defense), that actually Japan was the only real threat faced by the USA - Nazi Germany was just out of reach - all those considerations might add up to a fundamental ignorance toward a Asian culture and Race.

Then there also was a matter of feasibility. Japanese were easy to recognize and in relatively small number.
It was not so difficult to arrest 120.000 Japanese.
EO 9066 was issued in february 1942.
But indeed, Presidential proclamations targeting the residents of Japan, Germany and Italy were issued as soon as december 41.
If my memory is good, all three were concerned by EO 9066...stand to be corrected...

The major problem was of course their numbers (of Germans and Italians), their integrations to the American society. The US would have had to deal with millions of people. Incarcerations of such numbers were just out of question. And of course, given the lack of concrete threats from those two nations, the public demand for actions was less.
By 1942, Japan was America's sole concrete war. Troops were fighting and dying in the Pacific, while no GI will see a German soldier before 1943.

Again, my point is not to dismiss the existence of "Racial prejudice", just that there is more to it, let's say complementary information that explains such policies.

But as far as the Atomic bomb is concerned, i still think there is nothing whether in documents and or in other sources i am aware of, to support that the bomb was dropped on racial considerations.

Statmec:
Watch the video.


:lol:
I just love them.
As soon as i get my 5 pounds, i will write another post.
Or should i wait for you to give me 5 pounds?

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby The Mystic Jeff » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:19 am

>I did not know that they had been completely expropriated from all their goods, and that even the US citizens among them lost everything.

Outside areas affected, not much is widely known about the "shaming event" in America in the 20th C. 9066 was almost a signal up here in the PacNW to just take Japanese owned assets or trash them. Occasionally offers were made by "good white people" to be "caretakers" of Japanese-American owned farms, primarily, and when the Japanese-American owners came back, "the good white people" wouldn't give them back. So where race was probably not a primary reason for targeting an a-bomb, it was at very least, a desensitizing issue.

>I feel there was carry over into "humans vs subhumans(Japanese)" when it came to war planning in the Pacific Theatre. That was my point. If you are willing to imprison and disenfranchise people of a certain race wholesale

My point is in previous paragraph. I don't want 9066 to take away from the topic here.

Thanks.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:17 am

Albert Speer, in his autobiography, "Inside the Third Reich", stated that British Night-Time bombing raids had been the most effective at crippling German industry during the war.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Postby Balsamo » Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:01 pm

Well, IIRC, he also said that the british bombings would have had much more effective had they been coherent: for example bombing the same industrial site 3 times in a row - wasting all efforts to repair the damages. Instead they seems more interested in bombing as much as Germany as possible, allowing damaged sites to be repaired.

I can check that.


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