Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

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Cerdic
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Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Cerdic » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:58 pm

Germany's parliament recently recognised the Armenian genocide:

The German Parliament overwhelmingly adopted a symbolic but fraught resolution on Thursday declaring the killings of Armenians by Ottoman Turks in 1915 a genocide, escalating tensions with Turkey at a diplomatically delicate juncture.

The Turkish government angrily denounced the vote as “null and void,” and President Recep Tayyip Erdogan called his ambassador in Germany back to Ankara for consultations.

“The way to close the dark pages of your own history is not by defaming the histories of other countries with irresponsible and baseless decisions,” Turkey’s foreign minister, Mevlut Cavusoglu, wrote on Twitter. In Ankara, Prime Minister Binali Yildirim said, “There is no shameful incident in our past that would make us bow our heads.”

Germany needs Turkey’s help in following through on a deal with the European Union to manage the refugee crisis attributed in large part to the Syrian civil war. At the same time, the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, has been under pressure not to be seen as caving to pressure from Ankara to compromise on Western values, particularly after a recent dust-up over freedom of speech set off by a German comedian’s satire that outraged Mr. Erdogan.

For Turkey, there is scarcely a more delicate topic than what historians say was the murder of more than a million Armenians and other Christian minorities in 1915-16. In April, Mr. Erdogan visited the Armenian Patriarchate of Turkey and, in a carefully worded statement, extended condolences to
the families of those who had died, but the Turkish government has long rejected the term genocide.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/03/world ... urkey.html

Turkey's response was essentially a playground taunt, "I know you are, what am I?"

“First you burn the Jews in ovens and then you come and accuse the Turkish people of genocide,” said Justice Minister Bekir Bozdag.
“Look back first at your own history… in our history, there is nothing that we can be ashamed of.”

http://www.euractiv.com/section/enlarge ... -genocide/

Wikipedia has a comprehensive article about which countries, polities, and organisationshave recognised the genocide. Britain is not one of these, though the 3 devolved nations have. Israel, perhaps surprisingly, has not, to keep good relations with Israel-accepting Turkey and Azerbaijan.

Armenian genocide denial is more of a hot button issue (partly because of the ever contentious geopolitics of western Asia), and with the backing of a major country (the genocide perpetrator, Turkey), it has more weighty support than Holocaust denial. What are the similarities and/or differences in the deniers' approaches here?

http://factcheckarmenia.com
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com
http://www.ataa.org/reference/tragedy-fein.html

The basic contention seems pretty similar - sure, a lot of Armenians/Jews died, but the Turks/Germans had no intention of genocide, and anyway, a lot of Turks/Germans died in the war aswell. But what of specific links between Armenian genocide denial and HDers? Rense.com has an article linking Jews to the genocide, while at CODOH there seems to be some sympathy for denial of the genocide, but more comparisons of anti-Armenian genocide laws to anti-HD laws.

Some Antisemites believe Jews, who ofcourse control the media, deliberately distract attention from the genocide of (Christian) Armenians by Muslim (Turks) and divert it towards the Jewish genocide.
„(...) Wenn wir irgendetwas beim Nationalsozialismus anerkennen, dann ist es die Anerkennung, daß ihm zum ersten Mal in der deutschen Politik die restlose Mobilisierung der menschlichen Dummheit gelungen ist.“ Kurt Schumacher 23. Februar 1932

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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby NathanC » Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:06 pm

Similar to the "Jews Declared War on Germany" or the "Judeo Bolshevism" BS, some deniers of the Armenian Genocide also blame the victims. Their version is that Armenians started killing Turks or collaborated with the Russians or something. From what I've read, this falls apart when the actual chronology is taken into account. Armenians didn't start "killing Turks" until after the massacres of Armenians started.

Denial of the Armenian Genocide also seems to tie into "Muslim/Arab" exceptionalism. Basically, thanks to Edward Said, Arab nationalists have this bizarre mentality where they think "Muslims/Arabs" can do no wrong and everything bad is the west's fault. I remember, for example, a tweet by some POS named Steven Salaita saying that "All the west knows is violence" or something like that. Another example is the very popular conspiracy theory wherein Israel is allegedly the power behind ISIS. You can see an example of it here at the "Anti Islamophobia" site "Loon"Watch.

http://www.loonwatch.com/2012/03/recep- ... amophobia/

Valerie Boyer, a deputy from the UMP, initiated the genocide bill criminalizing the denial of the so-called Armenian genocide in December 2011. The bill was approved in the lower house of the French Parliament and in the French Senate in January. However, the constitutional council deemed it unconstitutional, stating that it violated the freedom of expression.

“Sarkozy is making xenophobia a matter of domestic politics, and issuing threatening remarks against foreigners in his country. This is in violation of the EU’s universal values and fundamental principles,” Erdoğan said. The French presidential elections will take place between April and May.


You can see examples of this behavior in the comments section.

Crow wrote:Again, its the WEST countries who've committed the most genocide. Steve: Erdogan stirring up francopbobia again...why don't you complain when Israel stirs up Iranophobia? hypocrite


Lawrence of America wrote:On one side its very obnoxious of france to try to claim the mantle of crusader against past genocides, considering their history as some of the most brutal colonists.
On the other hand the turks need to admit that bad things have happened, I don't think its a loss to admit that terrible atrocities were commited by ottomans as is often the case in declining empires. the armenians were slaughtered, Arabs were mistreated, i mean the list is long and not pretty, but we move on.
they only make it worse by denying it flat out


Abdul-Rahman wrote:France certainly has some gall, if nothing else, condemning Turkey for the past actions of the Ottoman Empire against the Armenians. This is the same France whose colonialist regimes ravaged Haiti, Algeria, etc. Much like the the US Congress passing stuff noting the Ottoman's crimes against the Armenians but not doing anything to officially apologize to the Native Americans or African-Americans. That is the US government has given a very weak "apology" to the Native Americans only noting that "treaties were broken", and the apology for slavery (while stronger) does not slavery's role in building the foundation of American power and leading (along with Jim Crow laws, and continued institutionalized discrimination) large rates of poverty in the African-American community until today (i.e. the US gov avoids the whole issue of reparations to the African-Americans).


And my personal favorite

Nur Alia wrote:How easily the Freinch forget thier own history.

How silent the Jews are in reminding them.


Loonwatch hates the Holocaust and frequently belittles it by engaging in the all too popular canard of equating Israel's crimes with the Holocaust. But, because they want to draw attention away from the Armenian Genocide, they suddenly don't. Pathetic. It's why I don't follow them anymore. They're a few steps away from being outright Holocaust deniers. It's the same thing with the Justice Minister.

Cerdic wrote:urkey's response was essentially a playground taunt, "I know you are, what am I?"

First you burn the Jews in ovens and then you come and accuse the Turkish people of genocide,” said Justice Minister Bekir Bozdag.
“Look back first at your own history… in our history, there is nothing that we can be ashamed of.”



I guess Turkish Nationalism/"Arab/Muslim" Exceptionalism trumps antisemitism. {!#%@} Edward Said.

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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby NathanC » Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:14 pm

Cerdic wrote:Wikipedia has a comprehensive article about which countries, polities, and organisationshave recognised the genocide. Britain is not one of these, though the 3 devolved nations have. Israel, perhaps surprisingly, has not, to keep good relations with Israel-accepting Turkey and Azerbaijan.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: There you have it. Israel/Jews don't control the world. Turkey does. That's bound to confuse all the deniers and antisemites. Or, they'll just ignore it like they always do.

I remember last year when the Vatican Pissed off Turkey by doing the same thing. The Turkish government naturally made a comment about how the Vatican helped ex-Nazis escape via "Ratlines", and therefore have no right to condemn the Armenian Genocide. It's pretty much a double feature - Acknowledging the Holocaust AND undermining the popular conspiracy theory of Jews controlling the world. Again, Turkish Nationalism/"Arab/Muslim" exceptionalism clearly trumps Antisemitism.

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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Denying-History » Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:07 pm

The Denial of this event is easily dropped from reading the testimony of Lieutenant Sayied Ahmed Moukhtar Baas.

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/br-12-26-16-text.html
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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Monstrous » Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:06 pm

Why not mention of the Dönme connection?

Even Wikipedia does not mention it for very unclear reasons?

Lets go to Metapedia: http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide

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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Cerdic » Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:12 pm

NathanC,
Denial of the Armenian Genocide also seems to tie into "Muslim/Arab" exceptionalism. Basically, thanks to Edward Said, Arab nationalists have this bizarre mentality where they think "Muslims/Arabs" can do no wrong and everything bad is the west's fault. I remember, for example, a tweet by some POS named Steven Salaita saying that "All the west knows is violence" or something like that. Another example is the very popular conspiracy theory wherein Israel is allegedly the power behind ISIS. You can see an example of it here at the "Anti Islamophobia" site "Loon"Watch.

A little off topic, but it's properly disturbing how widespread this thinking is in the Muslim world. I used to have a teacher who worked in Pakistan after 9/11, and he never came across a Pakistani who believed Al Qaeda did 9/11. I've read so many articles of Westerners heading to the Middle East and being told, by otherwise rational and well-educated people, crazy conspiracy theories about the Middle East. And now, most Iraqis seem to believe America is supporting ISIS... even though America's the one helping Iraq defeat ISIS.
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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Cerdic » Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:21 pm

Monstrous wrote:Why not mention of the Dönme connection?

Even Wikipedia does not mention it for very unclear reasons?

Lets go to Metapedia: http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide

Title of a book about the Dönmes: A Scapegoat for All Seasons. Says enough.

A nice example of the Armenian genocide denial-Holocaust denial link: Both Turks and Antisemitic deniers have promoted the idea that Jews were behind the genocide. On the Turkish side, an interesting cognitive dissonance between denying the genocide, and saying the Jews did it.
„(...) Wenn wir irgendetwas beim Nationalsozialismus anerkennen, dann ist es die Anerkennung, daß ihm zum ersten Mal in der deutschen Politik die restlose Mobilisierung der menschlichen Dummheit gelungen ist.“ Kurt Schumacher 23. Februar 1932

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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Denying-History » Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:26 pm

Monstrous wrote:Why not mention of the Dönme connection?

Even Wikipedia does not mention it for very unclear reasons?

Lets go to Metapedia: http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide


first off its Dönmeh, you idiot... and 2nd the Dönmeh were not the ones in charge of the newly formed constitutional monarchy... It was majority Turks, whom later purged the government of Armenians and started the mass murder. Not Muslim sect that has some Jewish customs.
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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Monstrous » Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:34 pm

Are you denying that that the Dönme/Dönmeh had any role in the genocide?

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/20 ... h-century/

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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Mary Q Contrary » Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:56 pm

Anybody who denies the Armenian genocide does so out of an irrational hatred of Armenians. Pure and simple. They want to white wash the history of the genocide to make the Ottoman Empire a viable political state again. The Armenian genocide is the best documented genocide in history. It was unique. If the Armenian genocide didn't happen, where did they go? Even discussing this gives aid and comfort to Armenophobes. Armenian Genocide deniers should be ignored. Any response to them, except mockery and ridicule, gives credence to a "debate" that simply does not exist. And you have to be careful: these deniers are slick people. They back up everything they say with facts and figures.
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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Denying-History » Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:18 pm

Monstrous wrote:Are you denying that that the Dönme/Dönmeh had any role in the genocide?

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/20 ... h-century/


Maybe some of them had a role in the genocide... The Kurds also had a huge role in this genocide... I'm just saying they didn't serve the role that you claim. Some Dönmeh took part in the genocide but they were not the route cause of it. I'm sure that some Dönmeh may have served in the military, this shows some role in it. But you cannot claim the whole Dönmeh as a people... This is like me saying all german's are to blame for the holocaust.
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« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Denying-History » Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:19 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Anybody who denies the Armenian genocide does so out of an irrational hatred of Armenians. Pure and simple. They want to white wash the history of the genocide to make the Ottoman Empire a viable political state again. The Armenian genocide is the best documented genocide in history. It was unique. If the Armenian genocide didn't happen, where did they go? Even discussing this gives aid and comfort to Armenophobes. Armenian Genocide deniers should be ignored. Any response to them, except mockery and ridicule, gives credence to a "debate" that simply does not exist. And you have to be careful: these deniers are slick people. They back up everything they say with facts and figures.


HAY! Its just exactly the same reason why you deny the holocaust! They hate Armenians! You hate Jews! You guys would get along greatly.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:13 am

The issue of Turkey playing down the Armenian Genocide is of not of mere historical interst: Turkey's actions against the Kurds smell very much like Erdogan would love to repeat the 1915 performance. That is less and less easy if you have an official history of commuting atrocities against minorities.
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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Balsamo » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:55 am

Some precision here:

There is no denial that Armenians have been killed "en masse"; no idiotic theories that Armenians have been removed and resettled somewhere. What some do deny (mainly in Turkey) is whether those huge massacres constitute a Genocide or not, but there is no denial of the crimes.

Of course, the irony is that it is this crime that inspire the term "genocide", but what is contested is the relevancy of its today legal definition.
One of the first condition for such a crime to be considered as a genocide is the implication of the official government. Was it the government that ordered the killings or not?
There is a substantial literature on the subject.

Of course, the qualification of Genocide if accepted by the UN would have important political and economical repercussion of the Turkish government, hence the so-called "Denial". So it goes far beyond the "historical debate".

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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:27 pm

I've not studied the events or debate in any detail. But two questions leap to mind reading your post, Balsamo:

1) It is my understanding that Turkey disputes more than legal definitions - that Turkey accepts 300,000 or so deaths in "whatever happened" (resettlement during a civil conflict?) - but without an intent to destroy Armenians being the case - whilst others put the death toll at 1.5 million. This sounds like a dispute about what occurred and how. So, Turkey accepts the academic consense on death toll? Am I incorrect in thinking that Turkey disputes this?

2) Lemkin's definition of genocide AFAIK didn't mention state policy or even state execution, so that, say, mass murders by a group like Boko Haram could fall under what I understand as the definition of genocide, as could mass destruction actions by armed rebel groups or by one side in a civil war and others under certain circumstances. (One of Lemkin's early examples of genocide was the mass murder of Armenians.) I don't think that the UN definition mentions state policy or state actors ("any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group")? Wrong?
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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Balsamo » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:03 pm

No of course, you are correct.
Turkey basically dispute everything - but that the governments of course- while i was essentially talking about Historians. Indeed, the government recognizes massacres and around 300.000 victims, depending of its level of nationalism, will more or less try to justify those killings - Armenians were traitors, terrorists, revolutionaries, blabla.

Lemkin, IIRC correctly conceived his definition with the Armenian in mind. But i was mentioning the legal definition used by the UN today. Worth checking as the argument about the lack of proofs of the direct involvement of the Government is one of the pillar of the "denial", now, the UN being mainly competent over States might have helped the deduction. What is at stake here is the potential financial reparations, public recognition by the State. SO, if the State culpability cannot been proven, none of this is needed.

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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:08 pm

Balsamo wrote:Sorry have to go to work, be back later

I don't work . . . LOL. I can't find where governmental sponsorship is part of the UN definition. And though I don't work, I do have to get to the gym and run some errands . . . so I'll look later! :)
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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Denying-History » Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:32 pm

Regardless, even if the Turks do not deny the massacres they surely make a good amount of propaganda that is ridiculous as means to downplay it. A good number of these claims are released by the Turkish Ministry of foreign affairs.

They have gone as far to say that since the genocide happened before 1948, that it couldn't be a genocide because of this purpose. I'm sure we are all aware that this claim is invalid.

They claim the massacres were justified by saying they were in retaliation to the allies... If this even can be comprehended by any of you as being a justification I would be really shocked... It's not very reasonable.

They also claim that since 'only' 300,000 people died then it couldn't be a genocide, even when genocides where far less people died still exist.
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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:52 pm

Monstrous wrote:Are you denying that that the Dönme/Dönmeh had any role in the genocide?

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/20 ... h-century/


The Donme were considered heretical by mainstream Judaism, they followed the teachings of Shabbatai Zevi who was considered a persona non grata and eventually converted to Islam. Saying that the Donme were Jewish is like saying that the Druze are Muslim or that Anglicans are Catholic.

Most of the Young Turks leadership was Turkish btw, and numerically the Kurds had a large role to play.

I know a few Armenians today, none of them blame the Jews for the Genocide - they blame the Turks and they are quite bitter that the Turks have not owned up to it.

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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:04 pm

NathanC wrote:Similar to the "Jews Declared War on Germany" or the "Judeo Bolshevism" BS, some deniers of the Armenian Genocide also blame the victims. Their version is that Armenians started killing Turks or collaborated with the Russians or something. From what I've read, this falls apart when the actual chronology is taken into account. Armenians didn't start "killing Turks" until after the massacres of Armenians started.

Denial of the Armenian Genocide also seems to tie into "Muslim/Arab" exceptionalism. Basically, thanks to Edward Said, Arab nationalists have this bizarre mentality where they think "Muslims/Arabs" can do no wrong and everything bad is the west's fault. I remember, for example, a tweet by some POS named Steven Salaita saying that "All the west knows is violence" or something like that. Another example is the very popular conspiracy theory wherein Israel is allegedly the power behind ISIS. You can see an example of it here at the "Anti Islamophobia" site "Loon"Watch.

http://www.loonwatch.com/2012/03/recep- ... amophobia/

Valerie Boyer, a deputy from the UMP, initiated the genocide bill criminalizing the denial of the so-called Armenian genocide in December 2011. The bill was approved in the lower house of the French Parliament and in the French Senate in January. However, the constitutional council deemed it unconstitutional, stating that it violated the freedom of expression.

“Sarkozy is making xenophobia a matter of domestic politics, and issuing threatening remarks against foreigners in his country. This is in violation of the EU’s universal values and fundamental principles,” Erdoğan said. The French presidential elections will take place between April and May.


You can see examples of this behavior in the comments section.

Crow wrote:Again, its the WEST countries who've committed the most genocide. Steve: Erdogan stirring up francopbobia again...why don't you complain when Israel stirs up Iranophobia? hypocrite


Lawrence of America wrote:On one side its very obnoxious of france to try to claim the mantle of crusader against past genocides, considering their history as some of the most brutal colonists.
On the other hand the turks need to admit that bad things have happened, I don't think its a loss to admit that terrible atrocities were commited by ottomans as is often the case in declining empires. the armenians were slaughtered, Arabs were mistreated, i mean the list is long and not pretty, but we move on.
they only make it worse by denying it flat out


Abdul-Rahman wrote:France certainly has some gall, if nothing else, condemning Turkey for the past actions of the Ottoman Empire against the Armenians. This is the same France whose colonialist regimes ravaged Haiti, Algeria, etc. Much like the the US Congress passing stuff noting the Ottoman's crimes against the Armenians but not doing anything to officially apologize to the Native Americans or African-Americans. That is the US government has given a very weak "apology" to the Native Americans only noting that "treaties were broken", and the apology for slavery (while stronger) does not slavery's role in building the foundation of American power and leading (along with Jim Crow laws, and continued institutionalized discrimination) large rates of poverty in the African-American community until today (i.e. the US gov avoids the whole issue of reparations to the African-Americans).


And my personal favorite

Nur Alia wrote:How easily the Freinch forget thier own history.

How silent the Jews are in reminding them.


Loonwatch hates the Holocaust and frequently belittles it by engaging in the all too popular canard of equating Israel's crimes with the Holocaust. But, because they want to draw attention away from the Armenian Genocide, they suddenly don't. Pathetic. It's why I don't follow them anymore. They're a few steps away from being outright Holocaust deniers. It's the same thing with the Justice Minister.

Cerdic wrote:urkey's response was essentially a playground taunt, "I know you are, what am I?"

First you burn the Jews in ovens and then you come and accuse the Turkish people of genocide,” said Justice Minister Bekir Bozdag.
“Look back first at your own history… in our history, there is nothing that we can be ashamed of.”



I guess Turkish Nationalism/"Arab/Muslim" Exceptionalism trumps antisemitism. {!#%@} Edward Said.


Edward Said had some good thing to say and I really don't think he was a Muslim exceptionalist being from a Greek Orthodox family and whatnot. But I do think he pioneered the school of PR deflection that you see in the comments section above - IIRC Klaus Barbie's lawyer in his French trial had the same technique, he made no attempt to deny Barbie's crimes but rather tried to paint the French judiciary as hypocrites by constantly bringing up French colonial crimes that, while vile, had happened a century before WWII. Typical far left historical relativism.

Loonwatch can be annoying but I really liked some of their exposes on Pamela Geller - that bitch needs to shut up already.

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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:05 pm

Ok, from old notes on genocide . . . keeping in mind that there is a legal definition, accepted by the UN and ICC, and there are various sociological or other views of what genocide entails . . . : Unlike crimes against humanity, as defined after WWII, genocide is a crime committed either during war or in peacetime.

The UN definition requires an intent to destroy a group, in whole or in part. Intent is part of the definition. Motive is explicitly different from intent (if you want to destroy the group Chechens for reasons of counter-insurgency or perceived disloyalty, or American Indians for economic reasons, and you take actions intending to destroy the target group, that's genocide, on account of the target and intent). Intent on the part of the perpetrator must be the reasonable inference from the facts - explicit plans are not required to show genocide.

Genocide refers to the destruction (Lemkin: “the destruction of essential foundations of life”) of national, ethnic, racial, or religious groups - not political groups. The aggressor defines the targeted group. The targeted group can be defined as perpetrators define the group - an example would be that the Nazis destroyed “biological” Jews (in some areas meeting the Nuremberg laws "test"; in other areas using more radical defintions), not observant Jews or just members of Jewish communities. Thus, Jewish victims of the Nazis included people who didn’t consider themselves to be Jews. Most victims of a genocide are not individually charged but targeted as a member of a group.

Genocidal acts include “killing, causing serious bodily or mental harm; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.” That is, means other than direct killing and mass murder had been considered part of a genocide, from Lemkin on.

The perpetrator need not be a state (Dadrian, Chalk & Jonassohn) but it must be a group with “more or less organized leadership” - with some continuity. Concepts like “perpetrator” (Fein) or “dominant group” (Dadrian) or “state or other authority” (Chalk & Jonassohn) appear in the literature. The perpetrator group must have access to power and the means of violence disproportionately to the victim group, as I understand it (“dyssymetry of forces” - Dadrian; “one-sided killing” - Chalk and Jonassohn) - whether war itself is genocidal is debated. Melson says OTOH that genocide is “a public policy mainly carried out by the state.” Rummel: “The perpetrator is not necessarily a state's government or its military, but may be an international organization, such as a UN peacekeeping one, NATO, or a terrorist or guerrilla organization, among others.” Also, according to Rummel, genocide “is formulated, planned, and conducted by individuals, and it is individuals that the ICC will prosecute for the crime of genocide. . . . The perpetrator's intent (purpose, goal, aim) is critical. . . . [This means that] the defined groups are by intention explicitly targeted for destruction, and such destruction is not the unintended outcome, byproduct, or spillover of the intent to achieve some other goal, such as in defensive operations o attacks on military targets during a war or rebellion. . . . Genocide is generally believed to involve the murder of indelible group members. But the crime does not. Acts (b)-(e) make clear genocide may also involve the intent to destroy a group by means other than killing one or more of its members.”

Reading my notes, and reading Balsamo's post on Turkey, I don't really get the Turkish "legalistic" position.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Denying-History » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:55 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Reading my notes, and reading Balsamo's post on Turkey, I don't really get the Turkish "legalistic" position.


Its they don't believe it was an intended genocide of a few groups of people. Primary sources tell us otherwise, but they just do it for nationalist reasons.
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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:25 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Reading my notes, and reading Balsamo's post on Turkey, I don't really get the Turkish "legalistic" position.


Its they don't believe it was an intended genocide of a few groups of people. Primary sources tell us otherwise, but they just do it for nationalist reasons.

Well, I "get" that; what I don't get is how anyone can give it credence!

Balsamo wrote, "what is contested is the relevancy of its today legal definition.
One of the first condition for such a crime to be considered as a genocide is the implication of the official government."

This is beside the point, based on my reading/notes.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:40 pm

"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:17 pm

I've got this on hold:

The Armenian Genocide
A Complete History
by Raymond Kevorkian

I'll see if there is something to add when I finish it.

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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Denying-History » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:17 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I've got this on hold:

The Armenian Genocide
A Complete History
by Raymond Kevorkian

I'll see if there is something to add when I finish it.


Taner Akçam's "the young Turks crimes against humanity" is a good read.
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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:09 pm

Much of Armenian Genocide denial today can be traced to the Azeri Oil Lobby. They have an army of losers who basically shill for them online. Some of my least favorite people.

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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Denying-History » Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:43 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Much of Armenian Genocide denial today can be traced to the Azeri Oil Lobby. They have an army of losers who basically shill for them online. Some of my least favorite people.
Not sure if Sari Gelin has a connection with that group but as a documentary, it's most definitely a big time offender for deceptiveness.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:35 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:Much of Armenian Genocide denial today can be traced to the Azeri Oil Lobby. They have an army of losers who basically shill for them online. Some of my least favorite people.
Not sure if Sari Gelin has a connection with that group but as a documentary, it's most definitely a big time offender for deceptiveness.


I loathe The Azeri government and I can't understand what the neocons saw in them. They are a brutal gang of genocidal bastards who committed pogrom after pogrom against the Armenians only to explode into a spasm of self pity when the Armenians afforded them the same treatment in 1992. Reminds me a bit of Nazi apologists in a way.
Last edited by Jeff_36 on Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:13 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:I loathe Azeris in general

You do realize what you've written here, no? I loathe Turks in general, I loathe Muslims in general, I loathe big-city people in general, I loathe the Dutch in general, I loathe Canadians in general . . . Really, Jeff?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:41 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:I loathe Azeris in general

You do realize what you've written here, no? I loathe Turks in general, I loathe Muslims in general, I loathe big-city people in general, I loathe the Dutch in general, I loathe Canadians in general . . . Really, Jeff?


They are Armenian genocide deniers by and large. However, I concede that I was excessively broad and have changed the wording of my post.

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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:59 pm

The Sultan Massacred 200,000 Armenians between 1894-1896 in response to Armenian activists. Did not know this.

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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Gord » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:57 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:I loathe Azeris in general

You do realize what you've written here, no? I loathe Turks in general, I loathe Muslims in general, I loathe big-city people in general, I loathe the Dutch in general, I loathe Canadians in general . . . Really, Jeff?

They are Armenian genocide deniers by and large. However, I concede that I was excessively broad and have changed the wording of my post.

Meh. I personally loathe all human beings. And some cats.
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Re: Armenian genocide denial and Holocaust denial

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:00 am

Gord wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:I loathe Azeris in general

You do realize what you've written here, no? I loathe Turks in general, I loathe Muslims in general, I loathe big-city people in general, I loathe the Dutch in general, I loathe Canadians in general . . . Really, Jeff?

They are Armenian genocide deniers by and large. However, I concede that I was excessively broad and have changed the wording of my post.

Meh. I personally loathe all human beings. And some cats.


I was in error to say what I said then. But Azerbijan is a major source of Armenian Genocide denial across the globe today.


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