Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 17299
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:40 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Someone is making comments there to the point of hysteria - rapid-fire, thoughtless, tangential, and self-contradictory . . . I don't think someone liked what I wrote, but he can't find an angle to actually discuss that. {!#%@} 'em.


It's like "communicating" with georgeous* - seems all that irrational belief in the outright weird and highly impossible and the accompanying "conspiracy thinking" is making them feel special. Don't ever dare challenge that! :?



(Yeah, offtopic, I know! But: Yes, georgie, I still think you're just some chubby pimply guy dwelling in your mom's basement like the troll under the stairs...)

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 17299
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:30 am

Pyrrho wrote:Hmm something is breaking the layout.

You mean "Quick links" etc. on bottom of page packed up and left? :-P

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4531
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:56 pm

I was part of that discussion.
Dwelling on irrelevant details like corpse color does not prove a point.
Neither does dwelling on "steam."
When the witnesses all agree that the Jews were dying at Treblinka and the only dispute is on the method that does not invalidate what the witnesses were saying. That confusion is understandable.
One thing about the gas chambers:
I believe the gas chambers had slits to release pressure, anyone seeing that may have mistook escaping exhaust for steam.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 13364
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:32 pm

Right off the bat, before the whole series was posted, bhigr started in on what the evidentiary value of the steam reports was, as though the question would stymie me.

The evidentiary value of the early reports, including those mentioning steam? Simple. Just what you wrote above: Jews were being killed at Treblinka in the "bathhouses." The so-called steam reports from Krzepicki and Rabinowicz, which were really gas-steam-something reports, helped establish mass murder.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4531
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:41 pm

My own opinion on eyewitness accounts is they can only fill in blanks.
For the Reinhard Camps, looking at the Hoefle Telegram and the Koehrer Report proves that the Germans sent Jews to the camps. Neither document have destinations afterwards, showing the Jews never left the camps. The eyewitness accounts help determine what happened, with some understandable confusion over the method of killing. What the Poles found afterwards in the camps clinches it for me, these were death camps, not transit camps.
I always ask Holocaust deniers for proof otherwise, I only get ducking and dodging.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 13364
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:54 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:My own opinion on eyewitness accounts is they can only fill in blanks.
For the Reinhard Camps, looking at the Hoefle Telegram and the Koehrer Report proves that the Germans sent Jews to the camps. Neither document have destinations afterwards, showing the Jews never left the camps. The eyewitness accounts help determine what happened, with some understandable confusion over the method of killing. What the Poles found afterwards in the camps clinches it for me, these were death camps, not transit camps.
I always ask Holocaust deniers for proof otherwise, I only get ducking and dodging.

We also have Fahrplananordnungen. And so much more. As an erstwhile historian, I take the view that explanations must come to terms with as much evidence as we have. And witness testimony is evidence that we have - handled with loving care, and used with other evidence, witness testimony can tell us a lot. Documents only tell you so much. Testimony can only tell you so much. Forensics can only tell you so much (try figuring out the history of the Anasazi from the so-called ruins of the American southwest - not easy). There's no silver bullet, usually, or "one piece of evidence that says it all." You have to take as much as you can find and work with it as a whole.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Jeff_36
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3952
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:00 pm

1. The AR report on Belzec is pretty damn close to a silver bullet IMO

2. Statmech, who in God's name is that creepy {!#%@} your new av?

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 13364
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:04 pm

1. There are no silver bullets. IMO. When studying history, as a friend of mine and I have been discussing at length recently (you know who you are!), one nearly always encounters this, that and the other that is discordant, tangential, confusing. You have to explain it all. It's not a puzzle: it has to be made into a narrative or close to one.
2. Now, someone (ahem) had an avatar of some bloody mess of a shirtless guy . . . for months. No one complained. There was no big bold colored type, no outrage, just business as usual. This new one is just a selfie, taken on a bad day. 'nuff said. (The issue here has to do with the "fatal glass of iced tea," which annihilated my laptop, which just came back brand spanking new, but with the link to Herr Elser broken . . . )
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Jeff_36
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3952
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:23 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:1. There are no silver bullets. IMO. When studying history, as a friend of mine and I have been discussing at length recently (you know who you are!), one nearly always encounters this, that and the other that is discordant, tangential, confusing. You have to explain it all. It's not a puzzle: it has to be made into a narrative or close to one.


I agree with every word of what you said. I just think some bits of evidence are more valuable than others. I literally shouted "Eureka!" when I happened upon the railway report from Bulgaria.

2. Now, someone (ahem) had an avatar of some bloody mess of a shirtless guy . . . for months. No one complained. There was no big bold colored type, no outrage, just business as usual.


Ahem, that av was of a fighter who had prevailed despite overwhelming odds stacked against him. An inspirational image If I've ever seen one.

This new one is just a selfie, taken on a bad day. 'nuff said.


I didn't know you were from Brighton Beach.... or that you spent most of you day in an opium den :lol: ;)

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 13364
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:25 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:1. There are no silver bullets. IMO. When studying history, as a friend of mine and I have been discussing at length recently (you know who you are!), one nearly always encounters this, that and the other that is discordant, tangential, confusing. You have to explain it all. It's not a puzzle: it has to be made into a narrative or close to one.


I agree with every word of what you said. I just think some bits of evidence are more valuable than others. I literally shouted "Eureka!" when I happened upon the railway report from Bulgaria.

For sure.

Jeff_36 wrote:
2. Now, someone (ahem) had an avatar of some bloody mess of a shirtless guy . . . for months. No one complained. There was no big bold colored type, no outrage, just business as usual.


Ahem, that av was of a fighter who had prevailed despite overwhelming odds stacked against him. An inspirational image If I've ever seen one.

This new one is just a selfie, taken on a bad day. 'nuff said.


I didn't know you were from Brighton Beach.... or that you spent most of you day in an opium den :lol: ;)

Yup. Times have been hard on me. Beach life is a bastard. The photo should also be an inspiration - I still manage getting up in the mornings. Despite it all.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Jeff_36
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3952
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:31 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:1. There are no silver bullets. IMO. When studying history, as a friend of mine and I have been discussing at length recently (you know who you are!), one nearly always encounters this, that and the other that is discordant, tangential, confusing. You have to explain it all. It's not a puzzle: it has to be made into a narrative or close to one.


I agree with every word of what you said. I just think some bits of evidence are more valuable than others. I literally shouted "Eureka!" when I happened upon the railway report from Bulgaria.

For sure.

Jeff_36 wrote:
2. Now, someone (ahem) had an avatar of some bloody mess of a shirtless guy . . . for months. No one complained. There was no big bold colored type, no outrage, just business as usual.


Ahem, that av was of a fighter who had prevailed despite overwhelming odds stacked against him. An inspirational image If I've ever seen one.

This new one is just a selfie, taken on a bad day. 'nuff said.


I didn't know you were from Brighton Beach.... or that you spent most of you day in an opium den :lol: ;)

Yup. Times have been hard on me. Beach life is a bastard. The photo should also be an inspiration - I still manage getting up in the mornings. Despite it all.


I get up around 7, get out of bed around 9, but that old man is a real {!#%@} gonna kick me further down the line....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVYDnQwi3OQ

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4531
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:37 pm

I agree with what you say about eyewitness testimony, documents, etc.
You have to see how the evidence converges on a conclusion, plus the absence of evidence that disputes that conclusion.
For example, I would happily look at any evidence of the AR camps being transit camps.
Unfortunately for ......"revisionists".......they usually bungle the evidence that may prove their point.
For example, the Kube Document from July 31st, 1942. Kube does state that 1000 able-bodied Jews arrived from Warsaw to assist the Wehrmacht. Apparently Mattagono? Graf? Or was it Kues? Used this as evidence that Jews were deported to the Soviet Union.
Unfortunately (or deliberately) they neglected to notice that Kube also ordered a halt to any further deportations under the threat of eliminating said transports. Kube also spent most of the documenting the liquidation of local Soviet Jews.
http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micro ... 205316.pdf
BTW if anyone has a copy of that in the original German I would love a copy. I can only find translations on-line.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 13364
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:30 am

PS-3428 in IMT, Blue Series, v XXXII pp 280-282
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Jeff_36
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3952
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:52 am

So Bhigr seems to have given up after 227 comments lol.... this is easily the longest HC comment thread ever - apart from when Roberto slayed some amateur named "telsa" a looong time ago.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4531
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:28 am

SM, thank you for the documents.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4531
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:29 am

Jeff_36
Bhigr typed a lot of words but in the end didn't really say anything.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 13364
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:10 pm

It does appear that bhigr finall ran out of, er, steam. :oops: (sorry)
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4531
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:03 pm

:lol:

Seriously, what is it with deniers and the whole "corpse color" obsession???!!!!?????
That indicates a rather serious psychological condition.

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1577
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Denying-History » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:23 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote::lol:

Seriously, what is it with deniers and the whole "corpse color" obsession???!!!!?????
That indicates a rather serious psychological condition.


It's a minutia argument they think if they can find one thing which doesn't fit eyewitness testimony then the whole thing comes crashing down. I'm sure you know this quite well.

It's a way to pull over support of the person who doesn't know much about Carbon Monoxides effects on the body under non oxygenated states. The thing is that generally websites don't talk about this and mention that cyanosis doesn't generally happen. They may believe the more they mention the more of a chance someone may believe it.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4531
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:36 pm

It's the same with clinging to steam, Jews drowning in a dark liquid, Jews given enough gas to stagger to the graves and bury themselves, etc.

User avatar
NathanC
Poster
Posts: 462
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:19 am

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby NathanC » Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:52 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:1. There are no silver bullets. IMO. When studying history, as a friend of mine and I have been discussing at length recently (you know who you are!), one nearly always encounters this, that and the other that is discordant, tangential, confusing. You have to explain it all. It's not a puzzle: it has to be made into a narrative or close to one.
2. Now, someone (ahem) had an avatar of some bloody mess of a shirtless guy . . . for months. No one complained. There was no big bold colored type, no outrage, just business as usual. This new one is just a selfie, taken on a bad day. 'nuff said. (The issue here has to do with the "fatal glass of iced tea," which annihilated my laptop, which just came back brand spanking new, but with the link to Herr Elser broken . . . )


True, there aren't any "silver bullets" when it comes to evidence proving the Holocaust. I would say that the real "silver bullets" would be the fact that the entire premise of "Revisionism" is false to begin with. I.E, there was never any conspiracy by the "victors" and "The Jews" to fake the Holocaust to begin with. That's why Zundel lied and said his trial was the first time anyone cross examined a Holocaust survivor. Anyone taking a closer look would see that the Germans had been doing that since the 60s, and were sometimes literally quite abusive to Jewish witnesses, as the Majdanek example you shared demonstrates.

When Bhigr started degenerating and talking about "Hoaxes", Sergey and I pointed out Stalin's policy of "Do not Divide the dead" and showed that there wasn't any hoax to begin with. It's interesting that in all his rantings, he never ever once addressed it. These guys know that their "hoax" never happened, and if they acknowledged things like "Do not divide the dead" and the way German Courts dealt with Nazi crimes in post war trials, their entire house of cards would collapse.

About your profile pic, I think you look fine. I'm totally not scared at all. A little surprised, maybe, but not scared. :D

User avatar
Jeff_36
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3952
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:57 am

NathanC wrote: Zundel lied and said his trial was the first time anyone cross examined a Holocaust survivor.


I know I've said this before, but please consider that this is holocaust denial we're talking about: That is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard in my entire life.

User avatar
NathanC
Poster
Posts: 462
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:19 am

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby NathanC » Sat Jun 04, 2016 3:03 am

Idiotic, and a complete and total lie. But the denier sheep fall for it hook, line and Sinker.

This, I think, is one of the reasons in favor of keeping Denial illegal. Deniers are pathological liars, and the purpose of their lies is to create a climate similar to 1930s Germany so that they can finish what their heroes started.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 13364
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:49 pm

NathanC wrote:I would say that the real "silver bullets" would be the fact that the entire premise of "Revisionism"

For which premise, as Monstrous reminds us time and again, they can show no evidence - only "plausible" (in their paranoid heads) opportunities for something else to have happened than what the evidence shows. Hallmark of classic CT - refute all existing evidence by imagining a minutely possible opportunity that something else occurred, then use that minute imagined possibility as a given and assured premise. There's something in here as to why my name nickname is Statistical Mechanic, having to do with the second law of thermodynamics, probabalistic states, etc:
One should not imagine that two gases in a 0.1 liter container, initially unmixed, will mix, then again after a few days separate, then mix again, and so forth. On the contrary, one finds ... that not until a time enormously long compared to 10^10^10 years will there be any noticeable unmixing of the gases. One may recognize that this is practically equivalent to never. (L. Boltzmann).

Something like this - less than a one in 10^10^10 chance - is the improbability that these doofuses use as their starting point: which means that what they believe is obvious is for all intents and purposes equivalent to being utterly implausible and actually not being the case ever in the real history of the real world. (I quoted this bit from Boltzmann in debate with been-there on Wannsee, he didn't comment.)

NathanC wrote:About your profile pic, I think you look fine. I'm totally not scared at all. A little surprised, maybe, but not scared. :D

Thank you for your support. Life is full of surprises! LOL
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 13364
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:25 pm

bump for David . . . don't want him to miss this one
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 13364
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:43 am

another bump for David
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Jeff_36
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3952
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:57 am

Daaaviddd, come out and plaaaaayyyyy

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 13364
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:33 am

I thought David liked to chat about "steam." No?
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1577
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Denying-History » Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:30 am

I thought he liked to talk in general. Lately he just has been making topics but not even replying to topics.
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

User avatar
Jeff_36
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3952
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:36 am

He's basically given up IMO

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 13364
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:48 pm

bump for David when he returns
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 17299
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:00 pm

I'd think we're out of luck there and he won't show up huffin' and puffin' until the attention Hunt is getting with Elie Wiesel's demise wears down.

User avatar
Denying-History
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1577
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Denying-History » Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:31 pm

I think scrm is correct
« Oral history is a complex field. After all, memory can be a distorting mirror, as anyone who has ever worked with memoir literature knows very well...They may be imperfect, and, at times, inaccurate as the narrator tries to cast himself in the most favorable light, but all sources are imperfect. Even an archival document reflects how the person who drafted it understood something and remains something less than the unvarnished truth. »
- James Mace

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 13364
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:53 pm

from deniers . . . < crickets >
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 13364
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:07 am

The “steam” myth depends in part on the early testimony of Jacob Rabinowicz, which deniers misuse as I described here. In his diary for later September 1942 Abraham Lewin records Treblinka escapee Rabinowicz telling him and the Wassers about the mass murder at Treblinka: “What are they killing them with? With simple vapour (steam).” Jansson and other deniers, as I explained in the HC blog piece I wrote, have ignored (or are not aware of) Rabinowicz’s prior testimony, from early September, given to Hillel Seidman, in which Seidman recorded that Rabinowicz told him that the Germans were gassing the Jews deported to Treblinka from Warsaw and elsewhere; as I wrote in the HC blog, Seidman’s account of his interview with Rabinowicz “twice mentioned gas killings at Treblinka; the Yiddish words Seidman used were fargazt (gassed) and fargasn (infinitive, to gas)”.

Yesterday I came across a sort of new (long ago read and long ago forgotten) account of what Rabinowicz told people in Warsaw about Treblinka after he’d escaped from the camp and made his way back to Warsaw. This account has been hiding in plain sight since 1945. I’m referring to a report submitted to the PWD-SHAEF in May 1945 for the famous KL documentation project headed by Eugen Kogon and guided by Lt Albert Rosenberg. The report is #164, in the final section of reports as published in The Buchenwald Report, entitled “The Heroic Jewish Struggle of Warsaw.” The report in question was prepared by Wladimir Blumenfeld, a young man who lived in Warsaw until his deportation to Majdanek during the Warsaw uprising in spring 1943; after just a month or so in Majdanek Blumenfeld was transferred to Auschwitz, and then, in spring 1945 it seems to S III (Ohrdruf) and finally, just days before the Buchenwald’s liberation, to the Buchenwald main camp, where he gave his Warsaw report a few weeks later.

Here is what Blumenfeld wrote about Rabinowicz. It matches well with Seidman’s diary entry (although Seidman didn’t mention shooting) and adds additional, specific information coming from Rabinowicz’s friends in the Warsaw ghetto:
We received no news from those who had left us. . . . [T]here came occasional refugees who had managed to escape Treblinka. One of them was a young Jewish journalist, Jakub Rabinowicz, brother to the chief rabbi of Munkacz. Until his resettlement he had worked with us in the kitchen of the Joint Distribution Center. In a secret meeting of Jewish youth, he reported to us what he had seen and experienced in Treblinka as a member of the rescue detail [Bergungskommando]: the mass murder, shooting, and gassing of hundreds of thousands of Jews of Warsaw and other places. He reported on the gruesome deaths our friends and relatives suffered and on his escape in a wagon, concealed by his comrades under bundles of clothes and blankets.

No one believed him. . . . He pleaded with us to believe him and begged us to send a Pole secretly to Kossuv, about 9 miles from Treblinka. The local population knew what was going in - they could smell the burning corpses. We followed his advice and raised funds and established connections with people from the PPS (Polish Socialist party). Several party members, the engineers Tepcin and Landau, Nososki, and Maycharek went to Kossuv and confirmed what we had been told. Polish personnel drove the resettlement trains as far as the gate; no Pole was allowed inside the fences. From a distance one could only see the dense smoke and smell the penetrating odor of burning.

Hackett, trans/ed, The Buchenwald Report, pp 366-367 (see also Kogon, The Theory and Practice of Hell where this passage from Blumenfeld's report is quoted at length, pp 186-192 and Brayard, Comment l'idée vint à M. Rassinier: Naissance du révisionnisme, which also discusses and quotes from this passage in Blumenfeld’s contribution)

I’m not familiar with the individual Poles mentioned by Blumenfeld, those who Blumenfeld says did reconnaissance based on Rabinowicz’s reports. The intense burning odor in the area of Treblinka, presumably from mass cremations, has been reported elsewhere, as we know.

Rabinowicz’s reports seem to have been an important source of news about Treblinka among Warsaw ghetto’s Jews during September 1942 - reaching the Orthodox community through Seidman, Oyneg Shabes through Lewin and the Wassers, and youth in the self-help movement as related by Blumenfeld. Taken together, these three sources for Rabinowicz’s reports do not support but rather help to put an end to the revisionist myth of a “steam” narrative about Treblinka.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4531
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:49 pm

Hey, SM, the link you provided for HC, it didn't work for me.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4531
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:59 pm

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... 2.html?m=1

This is SM's article if anyone is having trouble accessing it.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 13364
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:08 pm

Thanks it doesn't work for me either!
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 17299
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:30 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Thanks it doesn't work for me either!

Looks like it's just that the last letter [url]http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.de/2016/05/the-revisionist-fabrication-of-myth-of_22.htmlI[/url] needs to be deleted.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Has No Life
Posts: 13364
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Full steam ahead for Treblinka

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:01 pm

David in another thread:
David wrote:The original tale was that Treblinka had "steam chambers of death.

I replied that David is not only wrong in claiming this - but that also he hasn't even replied to in-depth material that shows this "original tale" claim of his to be wrong.

Jeffk wrote,
Jeffk 1970 wrote:To be honest, I don't think it makes any real difference. The original misidentification of "steam" was a mistake, nothing more.
Let me put it to you this way:
Let's say I witness person A shoot person B with a pistol. Let's say I misidentify the pistol, the murder weapon was a black Glock and it was actually a black Beretta.
Does that invalidate the fact that I witnessed a murder? No, I misidentified the pistol, not the fact of murder.

And I added:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Except the "steam" claim is a lot emptier than even that. Most of the original accounts mentioned gas, not steam. It would be as though out of 43 witnesses to your murder, 36 identified the weapon as the Beretta, 2 said a Beretta and a Glock were used, 1 said a Glock, 3 said a Beretta, a Walther, and a lead pipe, and 1 was confused.

Rather than continuing to chant vacuous slogans about "original tales" and Treblinka "steam," David needs to get his ass into the Treblinka steam thread where we discuss this issue in depth.

Time for David to reply to the arguments and evidence against his slogan about "steam chambers."
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927


Return to “Holocaust Denial”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 3 guests