IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:47 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:SM: That is an excellent quote from Kretschmer's letters home.

Except I quoted from Kretschmer's interview in the late '70s and Mattner's letters.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:52 am

Great group of "academics" here. I posit that Hitler saying the Jews were out to Destroy Germany does not prove that Germans thought Jews wanted to kill them. Nick Terry agreed with the substance of the statement while somehow still framing it as if in disagreement. SM and Jeff argue the point by stressing I am ignorant about history and as if being German and being Hitler were the same exact thing...... and that you need to have read all kinds of History books to understand this point.

I say it is simple English and logic: rhetoric if you will. I give multiple restates of the issue to make it clear. You boys come back with pure repetition.

How much History does one need to know to opine that Germany having better tanks does not mean they won WW2?

Come on boys====be Honest, be direct, admit to mistakes, learn, grow, laugh.

Silly not to.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:08 am

bobbo the pragmatist wrote:How much History does one need to know to opine that Germany having better tanks does not mean they won WW2?


Except that they didn't have better tanks. During the Invasion of France the British and French had better tanks but the Germans had better doctrine.
The T-34 tank the Soviets fielded were the best medium tanks, the Joseph Stalin the best heavies. The German Tiger and Panther tanks later equaled those tanks but the Germans never manufactured enough of them to turn the tide.

There, see, you just learned something.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Xcalibur » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:13 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Great group of "academics" here. I posit that Hitler saying the Jews were out to Destroy Germany does not prove that Germans thought Jews wanted to kill them. Nick Terry agreed with the substance of the statement while somehow still framing it as if in disagreement. SM and Jeff argue the point by stressing I am ignorant about history and as if being German and being Hitler were the same exact thing...... and that you need to have read all kinds of History books to understand this point.

I say it is simple English and logic: rhetoric if you will. I give multiple restates of the issue to make it clear. You boys come back with pure repetition.

How much History does one need to know to opine that Germany having better tanks does not mean they won WW2?

Come on boys====be Honest, be direct, admit to mistakes, learn, grow, laugh.

Silly not to.



Well here's a simpler, more easy to understand response, rhetoric, if you will:

Get the {!#%@} out, narcissistic, disruptive {!#%@}. Go waste someone else's time.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:18 am

ROFL
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:19 am

I take back the part of calling you academics.....except for Nick Terry. No..... academic wanna bes of some kind. But.... no interest in ideas. conformity is all you seek. fitting sub-forum.

I post so that you can never say you weren't told.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Xcalibur » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:20 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I take back the part of calling you academics.....except for Nick Terry. No..... academic wanna bes of some kind. But.... no interest in ideas. conformity is all you seek. fitting sub-forum.

I post so that you can never say you weren't told.


:roll: :roll:

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:41 am

bobbo the pragmatist wrote:Great group of "academics" here.


Thank you.

bobbo the pragmatist wrote: I posit that Hitler saying the Jews were out to Destroy Germany does not prove that Germans thought Jews wanted to kill them.


Many of them did.
Himmler:
We had the moral right, we had the duty to our own people, to kill this people which wanted to kill us .


http://codoh.com/library/document/891/
As always I apologize for the CODOH but they have the complete translation of Himmler's speech.

The thing is, bobbo, you are looking at this in a simplistic manner. Many Germans feared Jewish revenge, soldiers shot Jews over pits in retaliation for the bombing or in fear of what the "Judeo-Boshevist hoards" would do if given the chance (or justified it that way) and so on. It's a bit more complex than saying "Germans thought Jews wanted to kill them."

bobbo the pragmatist wrote:Nick Terry agreed with the substance of the statement while somehow still framing it as if in disagreement.


That's because Nick Terry does disagree with what you are saying.

bobbo the pragmatist wrote:SM and Jeff argue the point by stressing I am ignorant about history and as if being German and being Hitler were the same exact thing...... and that you need to have read all kinds of History books to understand this point.


That's because we are right on this and you are wrong. I really can't stress this enough.
You are trying to boil down a complicated issue into one point. That is oversimplistic. Frankly this deserves its own thread just to discuss properly.

bobbo the pragmatist wrote:Come on boys====be Honest,


I'm being honest when I say you don't really know what you are talking about.

be direct,


I'm trying to be. I started out trying to be nice about the whole thing, I'm getting over the whole "nice" thing.

admit to mistakes,


I do...when I'm wrong.

learn,


I'm not in learn mode right now, I'm trying to teach you about something you need to learn about if you want to discuss things on this forum.

grow,


Part of growth is understanding that you need to learn more about something which you lack knowledge. Do you see where I'm going with this?

laugh.


I frequently laugh, sometimes in inappropriate situations.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:45 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I take back the part of calling you academics.....except for Nick Terry. No..... academic wanna bes of some kind. But.... no interest in ideas. conformity is all you seek. fitting sub-forum.

I post so that you can never say you weren't told.


Huh?
Conformity?

You really don't read anything on this forum, do you?

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:46 am

Xcalibur wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Great group of "academics" here. I posit that Hitler saying the Jews were out to Destroy Germany does not prove that Germans thought Jews wanted to kill them. Nick Terry agreed with the substance of the statement while somehow still framing it as if in disagreement. SM and Jeff argue the point by stressing I am ignorant about history and as if being German and being Hitler were the same exact thing...... and that you need to have read all kinds of History books to understand this point.

I say it is simple English and logic: rhetoric if you will. I give multiple restates of the issue to make it clear. You boys come back with pure repetition.

How much History does one need to know to opine that Germany having better tanks does not mean they won WW2?

Come on boys====be Honest, be direct, admit to mistakes, learn, grow, laugh.

Silly not to.



Well here's a simpler, more easy to understand response, rhetoric, if you will:

Get the {!#%@} out, narcissistic, disruptive {!#%@}. Go waste someone else's time.


:lol:

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:01 am

bobbo the pragmatist wrote:I posit that Hitler saying the Jews were out to Destroy Germany does not prove that Germans thought Jews wanted to kill them.


Which Germans? Which regions? What religion? What age group? What level of education? What occupation? What level of indoctrination?
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:08 am

Hey Eggs: doesn't matter. Its a very definitional issue not really based on facts, analysis or history....but rather: logic. If A is entirely a subset of B, then arguing C is irrelevant. That kind of thing. I thought it was obvious..... but obviously, not.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:56 am

WTF is going on?

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:10 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Hey Eggs: doesn't matter. Its a very definitional issue not really based on facts, analysis or history....but rather: logic. If A is entirely a subset of B, then arguing C is irrelevant. That kind of thing. I thought it was obvious..... but obviously, not.

Not really obvious in light of statements such as this one:

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The notion that in any sense Germans thought the Jews wanted to kill Germans is an artifact of studying the subject for too long and in too much isolation.
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26670&p=551838#p551838

Since it's not clear to me what exactly you meant here, could you clarify which Germans you were referring to? All of them? Some of them? A majority? ...
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Xcalibur » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:14 am

Jeff_36 wrote:WTF is going on?



There's an "I have the sole lock on logic" {!#%@} amongst us.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:48 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Hey Eggs: doesn't matter. Its a very definitional issue not really based on facts, analysis or history....but rather: logic. If A is entirely a subset of B, then arguing C is irrelevant. That kind of thing. I thought it was obvious..... but obviously, not.


It isn't logical if you can't base it on fact, analysis or history.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:04 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The notion that in any sense Germans thought the Jews wanted to kill Germans is an artifact of studying the subject for too long and in too much isolation.
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26670&p=551838#p551838

Since it's not clear to me what exactly you meant here, could you clarify which Germans you were referring to? All of them? Some of them? A majority? ...

I was responding to Not Creative Enough's statement: "Once again, I know very well that Germans thought that Jews wanted to kill them." My interpretation was and is that Germans means some vague large percentage so as to constitute an assumed general consensus. The required % would change depending on contextual issues.....although in this case, I don't think there were enough of any group other than as revealed in the discussion: Hitler, SS, Camp Guards and Nazis.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:26 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:WTF is going on?

bobbo has gotten his head shoved up his ass as usual; for now I'm not going to waste more time discussing the Nazis with the intellectual equivalent of a snail; Xcalibur is telling bobbo the snail where it's at, Jeffk is trying to help bobbo extricate his head from his nether regions - but bobbo feels a sense of superiority with his head there, Nick has tried to reason with the snail - not easy to do, scrmbldggs is asking clarifying questions, and you and Balsamo wisely have stayed out of it
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:14 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:. . . the NY Times says that the terrorist was shot ("the police released images showing the truck’s windshield riddled with bullet holes"), whilst France24 and other news organizations report that he was killed in gunfire. Just doesn't sound like the same set of facts . . .

The Times of Israel: "The terrorist was shot by soldiers and a civilian guide. He died of his wounds."

I'm with you, Jeffk, this has to be the incident INCE referred to, telling us that it fit his argument, which I do not see how it does.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:27 pm

I don't get it either.
Did INCE think we wouldn't look into the matter? That it wouldn't be a headline story? That in this day and age where video cameras are everywhere there wouldn't be a recording? I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are additional videos that haven't been released yet.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:32 pm

Most likely a case of confirmation bias . . .
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:37 pm

I'd like to hear back from INCE to get this cleared up.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:01 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:WTF is going on?

bobbo has gotten his head shoved up his ass as usual; for now I'm not going to waste more time discussing the Nazis with the intellectual equiva

Cant be more stark. Yes====PULEASE STOP..... discussing the Nazis. Unless you expressly state there is no difference between "The Germans" and the Nazis. Rather the central point.

I woke up this morning thinking of a parallel. Trump's race baiting against Mexicans. Raise your hand: who here thinks Mexicans, or even more specifically illegal ground border crossing Mexicans, do so in order to rape, murder, and sell us drugs?

I'll wait.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:57 pm

bobbo the pragmatist wrote:Cant be more stark. Yes====PULEASE STOP..... discussing the Nazis.


Um, this is a Holocaust Denial sub forum. It's sort of the place to talk about them.

bobbo the pragmatist wrote:Unless you expressly state there is no difference between "The Germans" and the Nazis. Rather the central point.


Your problem is that you think that the differences between ordinary Germans and Nazis can be boiled down to one or two points. They can't. The relationship between "ordinary Germans" and "Nazis" is more complex than that. You can't distinguish that because you haven't read anything on it. My suggestion is that you do so.

bobbo the pragmatist wrote:I woke up this morning thinking of a parallel. Trump's race baiting against Mexicans. Raise your hand: who here thinks Mexicans, or even more specifically illegal ground border crossing Mexicans, do so in order to rape, murder, and sell us drugs?


What does that have to do with anything?

bobbo the pragmatist wrote:I'll wait.


Why?

I don't really understand why you are here. I could understand it if you wanted to learn more about the subject or if you wanted suggestions on books or articles to read. I get that. There's also other stuff we talk about besides the Holocaust. You could comment on that.

But right now you are talking about something you admitted you don't study. I don't get it.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:14 pm

Looking for that very "learning" experience you reference. Might it be a two way street..... or only your way?
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:26 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Looking for that very "learning" experience you reference. Might it be a two way street..... or only your way?


Bobbo, I read as many different authors as I can on single subjects. At the last count I've probably read anywhere from 20-30 books on WW II itself.

Why? Because I favor multiple views to see as many aspects on a subject as I can. There are no two way streets. For me there are six lane highways. I treat the Holocaust and related subjects the same way. It aggravates me that many important works on the subject are never translated because it makes me feel left out. I've gone through the "General Books" section eagerly searching for new titles to read about it. If you took the time to look through you'll see I regularly toss in books that in many ways only peripheral to the subject itself but are about general European history, a particular passion of mine.

So, again, I'd urge you to read some of the books, not only what I suggested but what others have suggested, especially Stat Mech and Nick Terry.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:29 pm

Image
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:47 pm

:lol:

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:57 pm

Jeff: we can NEVER learn too much, read too much.... its all time allocation and interest? I'm not all that interested in Military History or what country did what or what leaders did. Now.... closely related, I do enjoy Biographies of World figures...just how did Hitler come to power/stay in power/lose power? My interest: applying "lessons" from History, or any other field of study, to my own life. What can I learn about MYSELF?....to be applied as circumstances may warrant. EG, although a bit removed: what comparisons are valid between Hitler and Trump..... and therefore Germans and Americans.... or people....one of which is me.

Its that very process that leads me to pay attention to the distinctions (and similarities but those aren't the issue for this kerfuffle) between Germans and Nazis. They aren't the same. A bit more rigor would provide a lot more clarity.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:03 pm

Hitler biography:
Ian Kershaw's two volume biography, Hubris and Nemesis.


Go and purchase these.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:13 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:. . . the distinctions (and similarities but those aren't the issue for this kerfuffle) between Germans and Nazis. They aren't the same. A bit more rigor would provide a lot more clarity.

My god, is somebody writing down these pearls of pedantry and pretend wisdom?
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:17 pm

Yeah, I think I'm done. Maybe bobbo will do us a favor and go pick up the books I suggested. That might keep him busy for a bit.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:22 pm

No doubt.... an excellent read. And in a bookstore confronted by unknown books, I would pick it out.........but absent that, my life conclusion is that Hitler was a bad dude and I'd rather read about people just not quite so evil/self possessed/ahem: unable to interact with people who held different points of view.

We are what we eat. I'm fearful we may think as we read. So, I nudge myself to the more positive..... or atleast neutral.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:42 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Yeah, I think I'm done. Maybe bobbo will do us a favor and go pick up the books I suggested. That might keep him busy for a bit.

I say he won't; his interest lies in his certainty of his profundity and performances of it, not in this topic or in learning anything.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:52 pm

So..... not a two way street, but a Fun House Mirror? .......................................Ha, ha.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:11 pm

bobbo the pragmatist wrote:absent that, my life conclusion is that Hitler was a bad dude and I'd rather read about people just not quite so evil/self possessed/ahem: unable to interact with people who held different points of view.


Hitler is more complicated than that.

:?
Bobbo, you can't simply boil down people like Hitler and Stalin as "bad dudes" without understanding why they did the things they did.

bobbo the pragmatist wrote:We are what we eat. I'm fearful we may think as we read. So, I nudge myself to the more positive..... or atleast neutral.


That's a very pretentious thing to say.

Look, I come back around to a question:
Why are you participating in this sub forum if you fear psychological damage?

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:18 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
bobbo the pragmatist wrote:. . . Hitler was a bad dude . . .

You're kidding?
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:20 pm

Jeff: more rigor. You keep mischaracterizing what I say. I can even think you aren't doing that on purpose. So.....more rigor. I won't dither to the level you might benefit from: just look at the actual words used. Maybe buy and use a dictionary?

Everything is as complicated or as simple as you wish to make it. I've made my decision re Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, Most Mobsters, Vlad the Impaler and so forth. WE ONLY HAVE SO MUCH TIME. I choose more uplifting and APPLICABLE issues to spend my Four Score and Twenty On. Absolutely nothing wrong with choosing otherwise. An appreciation of FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM.... allows each to choose their own path. Actually---pretentious (and tedious) otherwise.

I "fear" no psychological damage and what I said wasn't even close: rigor. Words have meaning.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

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Jeffk 1970
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:25 pm

:banghead:

You win.

Go away.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:31 pm

Why should I go away? YOU interjected yourself, not me. Same with Stat Mech. This is a "Public Forum." An excellent time to use that dictionary.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?


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