IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:31 pm

" If the price of providing security is allowing security forces to commit crimes, there is an incredibly deep problem that needs to be addressed."

This is basically what I said numerous times in this debate...
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:22 pm

No, what you did was to deflect and attribute your defense of war crimes to the situation and the existence of people you called scum. The police and security forces always have to deal with people who are violent and who commit crimes, so, no, that's not the unique problem here. The problem is with security forces who can't follow the law and with you and others who defend commission of police and war crimes as an appropriate way to deal with security problems, wherever you defend such behavior.

So, no, you've not even recognized your problem let alone agreed that your problem needs addressing, but it does, just as the problem of the police murder and coverup in my city needs addressing.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:21 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:Oh, the irony.

Today an Arab terrorist went on a car rampage in Jerusalem, killing 3 civillans and injuring 15.

The IDF opened an investigation on why some soldiers stood by WHILE THE ATTACK was ongoing and didn't even attempt to shoot until it was too late.

Gee, I wonder why...


Was it a car or truck?

There was an attack by truck, the truck rammed into a group of soldiers getting off a bus.

There is video (warning, somewhat graphic):
http://m.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Video-Security-camera-captures-Jerusalem-terror-attack-477788#article=6024Rjk4MUQyNEUyODdCMTkxQzE5MzA3OUU1MzQzMTI0QTU=

If this is what you are talking about I disagree with your assessment on the reactions of the soldiers. I do find it odd that the squad in the forefront of the video scattered AWAY from the scene but obviously some of the soldiers fired on the attacker. He died at the scene.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:28 pm

nickterry: yes, thank you. A breath of fresh air to actually address the topic with relevant facts. So, let's have a look see:

(((had to take a break to fix something and thought I might add here my review will be to pull what facts I can to moderate my first stated position. The best case ever: recognize I AM WRONG..... and change my position. How else to grow more as a person?----- Know what I mean?)))

1. Well...you start off with a MAJOR CONFLATION. What was the original statement?
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Once again, I know very well that Germans thought that Jews wanted to kill them.


I've never heard THAT before.
I keep making the distinction between "The Germans" which I take to be the general population of Germany, for this discussion not including German Jews and German Gypsies, old, infirmed, handicapped and so forth and you guys keep CONFLATING that clear and meaningful distinction with Hitler, Prison Camp Guards, Nazis, and Nazi Propagandist. I don't even think the latter group thought Jews wanted to kill Germans: IT WAS PROPAGANDA. Can't you guys keep this distinction IN MIND? First...... I suppose you ought to plainly state you accept the distinction? Maybe THAT is the problem? but I assume there is more? ((I am commenting as I first read.))

2. To emphasize: Your first paragraph still: No, I have not read the literature but even if what you say is true, AS STATED: it doesn't even address what "the Germans thought the jews thought." So....did Nazi Propaganda have a theme that the Jew wanted to extirpate and destroy Germany, the Germans and the Aryan race. Lets say overwhelming yes. Now: how EFFECTIVE was that propaganda? Isn't that the issue that is so far unaddressed except by way of conflation?

3. " Theodor Kaufman's lunatic pamphlet proposing the sterilisation of all Germans, a big theme in 1941"/// Kind of a tell there? ...... unless we are to believe The German People believed in "LUNATIC" pamphlets. By definition: only a fringe element of any group believes in lunatic notions.

4. "Allied Bombing in 42 and 43" /// Ha, ha......even if granting the premise, wouldn't the fairer notion be that only a lunatic fringe group could think Jews were flying all those planes?.... I assume you are making some other kind of extended connection here. I'm not into the study to have a direct appreciation of this statement.

5. Oops! Ha, Ha: "How many believed this stuff is impossible to say, ...." //// Yes......a cornerstone of reverting to common sense. I say: "most people don't believe lunatic fringe propaganda: even from their own gubment." Not even the following "diaries and letters from SS/Policemen" saves this specious CONFLATION.

6. Claims and propaganda creating the wide spread belief that Jews were criminals, and committed sabotage?===I don't care, thats not the issue. How many sabotage attacks "by Jews" were there? Enough for any but a fringe group of lujnatics to think the Jews were out to kill Germans? I asssume you will later on include the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising? Now THOSE jews..... were out to Kill German soldiers.........not the German citizens/sympathizers that were helping them hide or escape the country.

7.
While the refrain of 'Jewish partisans' was a major theme in Nazi thinking, the fear that 'the Jews' would kill 'the Germans' was much less about whether an individual Jew would kill an individual German, and much more than "the Jews" as a collective entity would pull the wires and strings of the Soviet, American and British marionettes, who were all portrayed as a collection of evil Chuckies, demon-dolls possessed by a murderous rage against Germany and the Aryan race.
Again: the major tell: what the Nazi's thought should not be CONFLATED into what the Germans thought. And further "whether an individual jew would kill an individual German. That is exactly the subject/notion/issue at hand. Thank you for your support of my position. Isn't your opposition...... a conflation?

8.
Your earlier remark:

The notion that in any sense Germans thought the Jews wanted to kill Germans is an artifact of studying the subject for too long and in too much isolation.



rightfully provoked mirth from StatMech and others (including myself) because it sums up your problem intervening in a discussion without evidently knowing anything about it.
Ahhhh..... humor, my boys. Always flying overhead. And yet, with such a big kernel of truth. What else explains your inability to make the critical distinction? IE: Not all, or even a significant number of Germans were Hitler.
((Thats more humor. Expand it to: or SS/Police, or Camp Guards, ...............or even Nazis?))

9.
I'll go one further and say you're simply not being empirical. At no time in this digression have you displayed the slightest awareness of what evidence exists regarding Nazi antisemitic propaganda and attitudes during WWII.
One more time: For argument lets say such propaganda was extensive and read by all Germans. Now: being empirical and all: How many Germans believed it? You continue to miss the point. Like Hillary: you think traveling to a bunch of countries (ie: distributing pamphlets or making speeches) is an accomplishment RATHER THAN an what it is: an activity.

Well............if I were a History teacher on this particular issue: I would give you all an "F." maybe a D to be kind ... but as you also flunk basic English and Logic skills.... the F is rather warranted.

So FAR====no one has said now many Germans actually believed the propaganda. Propaganda to be most effective has to have some correleation to the reality that everyone sees. Jews murdering Germans. =====>Never Happened.

I haven't studied History......... but I think I know: people.

You fail.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:33 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:thanks, Nick, yes, I focused on the wartime, because only from that period do I recall reading extensive commentary on the kill-or-be-killed motif, especially as the war progressed,......

On the other hand: as the war progressed and the Germans got carpet bombed..... it would be reasonable to assume (again, no empirical proof--or even evidence suggesting it--just raw sociology) that the Germans could think "EVERYONE IS TRYING TO KILL US" ((Close to the theme in Catch-22: very relevant to this entire sub-forum??---Snowdens Secret, a sublime appreciation of "war.")).... Well.... not everyone.... like the Jews that had already passed thru the camps? Course, the Germans didn't know about that.

Ironic what people know and don't know?
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:48 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I haven't studied History

Obviously. You could have, with no loss of value, kept your reply to Nick to just these words. But he knew, and we knew. So, to be really economical, you needn't have posted anything at all.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:but I think I know: people.

You don't know these people. But you keep deluding yourself that you do.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:48 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:thanks, Nick, yes, I focused on the wartime, because only from that period do I recall reading extensive commentary on the kill-or-be-killed motif, especially as the war progressed,......

On the other hand: as the war progressed and the Germans got carpet bombed..... it would be reasonable to assume (again, no empirical proof--or even evidence suggesting it--just raw sociology) that the Germans could think "EVERYONE IS TRYING TO KILL US" ((Close to the theme in Catch-22: very relevant to this entire sub-forum??---Snowdens Secret, a sublime appreciation of "war.")).... Well.... not everyone.... like the Jews that had already passed thru the camps? Course, the Germans didn't know about that.

Ironic what people know and don't know?

You are really very stupid and very arrogant. Nick's already mentioned to concept "wire pullers," which in your smug self-certainty, you refuse to consider or absorb.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby nickterry » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:55 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:nickterry: yes, thank you. A breath of fresh air to actually address the topic with relevant facts. So, let's have a look see:

(((had to take a break to fix something and thought I might add here my review will be to pull what facts I can to moderate my first stated position. The best case ever: recognize I AM WRONG..... and change my position. How else to grow more as a person?----- Know what I mean?)))

1. Well...you start off with a MAJOR CONFLATION. What was the original statement?
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Once again, I know very well that Germans thought that Jews wanted to kill them.


I've never heard THAT before.
I keep making the distinction between "The Germans" which I take to be the general population of Germany, for this discussion not including German Jews and German Gypsies, old, infirmed, handicapped and so forth and you guys keep CONFLATING that clear and meaningful distinction with Hitler, Prison Camp Guards, Nazis, and Nazi Propagandist. I don't even think the latter group thought Jews wanted to kill Germans: IT WAS PROPAGANDA. Can't you guys keep this distinction IN MIND? First...... I suppose you ought to plainly state you accept the distinction? Maybe THAT is the problem? but I assume there is more? ((I am commenting as I first read.))

2. To emphasize: Your first paragraph still: No, I have not read the literature but even if what you say is true, AS STATED: it doesn't even address what "the Germans thought the jews thought." So....did Nazi Propaganda have a theme that the Jew wanted to extirpate and destroy Germany, the Germans and the Aryan race. Lets say overwhelming yes. Now: how EFFECTIVE was that propaganda? Isn't that the issue that is so far unaddressed except by way of conflation?

3. " Theodor Kaufman's lunatic pamphlet proposing the sterilisation of all Germans, a big theme in 1941"/// Kind of a tell there? ...... unless we are to believe The German People believed in "LUNATIC" pamphlets. By definition: only a fringe element of any group believes in lunatic notions.

4. "Allied Bombing in 42 and 43" /// Ha, ha......even if granting the premise, wouldn't the fairer notion be that only a lunatic fringe group could think Jews were flying all those planes?.... I assume you are making some other kind of extended connection here. I'm not into the study to have a direct appreciation of this statement.

5. Oops! Ha, Ha: "How many believed this stuff is impossible to say, ...." //// Yes......a cornerstone of reverting to common sense. I say: "most people don't believe lunatic fringe propaganda: even from their own gubment." Not even the following "diaries and letters from SS/Policemen" saves this specious CONFLATION.

6. Claims and propaganda creating the wide spread belief that Jews were criminals, and committed sabotage?===I don't care, thats not the issue. How many sabotage attacks "by Jews" were there? Enough for any but a fringe group of lujnatics to think the Jews were out to kill Germans? I asssume you will later on include the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising? Now THOSE jews..... were out to Kill German soldiers.........not the German citizens/sympathizers that were helping them hide or escape the country.

7.
While the refrain of 'Jewish partisans' was a major theme in Nazi thinking, the fear that 'the Jews' would kill 'the Germans' was much less about whether an individual Jew would kill an individual German, and much more than "the Jews" as a collective entity would pull the wires and strings of the Soviet, American and British marionettes, who were all portrayed as a collection of evil Chuckies, demon-dolls possessed by a murderous rage against Germany and the Aryan race.
Again: the major tell: what the Nazi's thought should not be CONFLATED into what the Germans thought. And further "whether an individual jew would kill an individual German. That is exactly the subject/notion/issue at hand. Thank you for your support of my position. Isn't your opposition...... a conflation?

8.
Your earlier remark:

The notion that in any sense Germans thought the Jews wanted to kill Germans is an artifact of studying the subject for too long and in too much isolation.



rightfully provoked mirth from StatMech and others (including myself) because it sums up your problem intervening in a discussion without evidently knowing anything about it.
Ahhhh..... humor, my boys. Always flying overhead. And yet, with such a big kernel of truth. What else explains your inability to make the critical distinction? IE: Not all, or even a significant number of Germans were Hitler.
((Thats more humor. Expand it to: or SS/Police, or Camp Guards, ...............or even Nazis?))

9.
I'll go one further and say you're simply not being empirical. At no time in this digression have you displayed the slightest awareness of what evidence exists regarding Nazi antisemitic propaganda and attitudes during WWII.
One more time: For argument lets say such propaganda was extensive and read by all Germans. Now: being empirical and all: How many Germans believed it? You continue to miss the point. Like Hillary: you think traveling to a bunch of countries (ie: distributing pamphlets or making speeches) is an accomplishment RATHER THAN an what it is: an activity.

Well............if I were a History teacher on this particular issue: I would give you all an "F." maybe a D to be kind ... but as you also flunk basic English and Logic skills.... the F is rather warranted.

So FAR====no one has said now many Germans actually believed the propaganda. Propaganda to be most effective has to have some correleation to the reality that everyone sees. Jews murdering Germans. =====>Never Happened.

I haven't studied History......... but I think I know: people.

You fail.


On the contrary: my original intervention remains absolutely correct. You admit not to knowing the literature on this subject and admit not to having studied history. Your ignorance is self-proclaimed.

INCE's original statement remains basically correct if rather crude. However, your statements such as blethering about Jewish youths fighting Nazi youths remain outright fails.

Even funnier is your insistence on challenging points that are already acknowledged and were made in my long reply. Everyone here knows full well that INCE should have said Nazis not Germans. Had you restricted your challenge to this point and not kept on digging, then you might not have earned such exasperation and ridicule from others on this thread.

You're now the only one still belabouring this point - nobody else is actually thinking in terms of 'ordinary Germans' but rather of Nazis. Everything StatMech and I have added refers to the undeniable Nazi propaganda narrative that sought to link the Jews with anything threatening Germany, which rapidly escalated to repeated hysterical and delusional claims that the Jews sought to exterminate Germans.

I have also cited some evidence that lower-ranking Nazis referred to these memes and ideas, and know of other examples. At least some people, Germans in the Nazi Third Reich, believed this stuff; others seized on it to justify and rationalise mass murders they were ordered to carry out. Awareness of Hitler's "prophecy" speech was widespread, as it was repeated on numerous occasions, so that killers like Walter Mattner referred to it unselfconsciously when writing home to their families, as is well known to readers of many different books that have cited Mattner's remarks.

The rest of your attempt at fisking my post failed much as I predicted it would, because you didn't notice the arguments I was actually making. The aside on Nazi paranoia about Jewish sabotage and Jewish partisans was explicitly distinguished from the meta-threat posed by 'the Jews' pulling the strings to orchestrate a potential extermination of the German people. I explicitly said that the Nazi (have you absorbed the fact that I keep saying Nazi) propaganda narrative projecting extermination fantasies onto Jews was not about individual Germans killing individual Jews. But these other refrains flow into this central fantasy, just as the linkages in the popular imagination (recorded in SD opinion-survey reports, the closest thing the Third Reich had to Gallup polls) between "the Jews" and bombing flowed into the extermination fantasy.

You, however, seem to insist that either everything the Nazis said must have reiterated this point or it's somehow not relevant, which is amusingly close to how neo-Nazi apologists and deniers treat this material. The notion that opinions and ideologies have a spectrum, can progress from less to more extreme, seems to have eluded you entirely, as did the fact that Nazi officers are known to have cited these linkages immediately before carrying out mass executions.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:58 pm

I know you are.... but what am I?

Silly ..... really.

ADDRESS THE ISSUE.............. Note: you don't. Follow nickterry's lead at least. He was wrong.... but I expect better next go as the issue ever gets focused on.

Stab Two: Oh yes.... understanding the concept of "wire pullers" is sure to directly reveal how many GERMANS thought Jews were out to kill them. Kinda a Nazi approach here: fanatically dedicated to every little detail, never wrong. ...... Never paying attention to the issue actually raised. Just yell and scream. Taunt and belittle.

Silly Hooman.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:02 pm

"On the contrary: my original intervention remains absolutely correct. You admit not to knowing the literature on this subject and admit not to having studied history. Your ignorance is self-proclaimed. " //// I admit to what I don't know, but proclaim what I do know. Are you being intentionally misleading?.... or caught in your own wishful thinking?

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA: Hey Stat Mech: you lose because: "You're now the only one still belabouring this point - nobody else is actually thinking in terms of 'ordinary Germans' but rather of Nazis. //// Thats my whole point.

Thanks boys.

.................... just wish I liked candy. Send me beers.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:05 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:ADDRESS THE ISSUE..............

Which is your self-admitted lack of knowledge. Which I addressed. No, I won't spend more effort explaining to you what, judging from your responses to earlier posts, you will only ignore or willfully misunderstand. To protect your ignorance and feel good in it.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:07 pm

SM..... nickterry destroyed your argument and repeated mine.

You CONFLATE what the Nazi's wanted to achieve with what the German people believed.

Be direct, honest, recognize mistakes, learn, grow.......... and lighten up. All too rigid.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby nickterry » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:09 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:ADDRESS THE ISSUE..............

Which is your self-admitted lack of knowledge. Which I addressed. No, I won't spend more effort explaining to you what, judging from your responses to earlier posts, you will only ignore or willfully misunderstand. To protect your ignorance and feel good in it.


I second this.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:10 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:SM..... nickterry destroyed your argument and repeated mine.

You CONFLATE what the Nazi's wanted to achieve with what the German people believed.

Be direct, honest, recognize mistakes, learn, grow.......... and lighten up. All too rigid.

That must be why Nick mentioned that my arguments were parallel to his. And wrote, "Everything StatMech and I have added refers to the undeniable Nazi propaganda narrative that sought to link the Jews with anything threatening Germany, which rapidly escalated to repeated hysterical and delusional claims that the Jews sought to exterminate Germans."

That must be why my 2nd reply to your nonsense was, "the Nazis viewed the war as destroy or be destroyed, and pinned on 'the Jews' the intent to annihilate Germany. Another oddball example is the Theodore Newman Kaufman book episode, orchestrated by Goebbels. The Führer himself . . ." Must also be why I made sure that we weren't thinking "all Germans," and drew still more examples from Nazi propagandists.

Oh, yeah, I forgot, not only do you not know this stuff, you don't pay attention.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:17 pm

from the Reuters story on the truck attack:
A security guard identified only as “A” told Channel 10 how he shot at the truck and its driver.

“I shot at a tire but realized there was no point as he has many wheels, so I ran in front of the cabin and at an angle, I shot at him and emptied my magazine,” he said.

“When I finished shooting, some of the officer cadets also took aim and also started firing.”

The footage showed many of the soldiers fleeing the scene as the attack took place, their rifles slung on their shoulders.

INCE's original post, presumably on this incident, mentions the soldiers who did not shoot but not those who did. I wonder why.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby nickterry » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:27 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:SM..... nickterry destroyed your argument and repeated mine.

You CONFLATE what the Nazi's wanted to achieve with what the German people believed.

Be direct, honest, recognize mistakes, learn, grow.......... and lighten up. All too rigid.

That must be why Nick mentioned that my arguments were parallel to his.

That must be why my 2nd reply to your nonsense was, "the Nazis viewed the war as destroy or be destroyed, and pinned on 'the Jews' the intent to annihilate Germany. Another oddball example is the Theodore Newman Kaufman book episode, orchestrated by Goebbels. The Führer himself . . ." Must also be why I made sure that we weren't thinking "all Germans," and drew still more examples from Nazi propagandists.

Oh, yeah, I forgot, not only do you not know this stuff, you don't pay attention.


I second this also.

Bobbo, you could have had a whole banana had you restricted your criticism of INCE to the Germans/Nazi conflation, but instead you blundered on to act as if the Nazis had never said anything along those lines. Which is hilariously ignorant, because they most certainly did.

I mentioned student grades and exam howlers before, I stated also that INCE's crude expressions got him a D, implicitly because of the conflation of Germans and Nazis. In the middle of an exam essay answer, that's the sort of thing that gets circled and attracts commentary. He was right to remember that some Nazis used such rhetoric. He was wrong to imply some or all 'Germans' did (so except in so far as the Nazis of that era were, of course, German.)

Once I had a classic exam howler that went 'in 1948, Rod Stewart became the first jazz musician to perform in Germany when he played in Berlin during the blockade'. There are so many factual errors in this sentence one doesn't know where to begin. I have no idea where the student got the idea from and never found out. It was, however, a rare brainfart in an otherwise decent essay.

In the same exam script pile, another student offered the amusing gem that 'in post war Germany, women became liberated as they started going out with previously ridiculed black men'. This one, by contrast, was badly if amusingly written but referred however dimly to a genuine phenomenon that I had mentioned in a lecture, citing the work of Maria Hohn on West German attitudes to race and how these had been influenced by US Army attitudes towards African American GIs: as surprising as it might seem, initially black GIs were very popular because they also brought along jazz music and were willing to party, only after the largely Southern US Army officer corps had 'taught' local mayors what to think about noisy jazz clubs and black men did these local mayors act out as we might expect Germans in the 1950s to have acted out. The rest of the essay was otherwise fine, so once again: brainfart.

What you're now doing is more like a student who made a good point in the introduction then started winging it to make up the rest of the answer based on close to zero knowledge. Freaking out because others noticed that you know jack squat doesn't really make your contributions in this thread look any better, I'm afraid.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:27 pm

Nick Terry: yes or no: "nobody else is actually thinking in terms of 'ordinary Germans' but rather of Nazis." //// I grant you that. THE ISSUE IS WHAT THE GERMANS THOUGHT.

You and SM change the subject to one in which we all agree, then you say you won the initial DIFFERENT point.

Just ................. look.

Hence the F in English and Logic. History isn't even relevant. Ain't that a kick?
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:30 pm

For anyone following, or retching when reading bob the proctologist's vapid nonsense, you will have noted that in his replies to bob Nick Terry mentioned Mattner's letters home, which are well known to those who've read about this history - although a black hole to bob. Here's an excerpt from a letter which SS and Police Lieutenant Walter Matter, HSSPF staff, Central Russia, wrote to his wife from the east, 5 October 1941. I chose this excerpt because, gee whiz, just as Nick Terry and I said, the Führer's prophecy created echoes:
I must tell you something else. I took part in a mass killing the day before yesterday.

[When we shot the Jews brought by] the first truck my hand trembled somewhat during the shooting, but one gets used to it. By the tenth truck I was already aiming steadily and shooting accurately at the many women, children, and babies. I thought about the two infants that I have at home, to whom this gang would do exactly the same, if not ten times worse. The death we were according them was a short and beautiful one compared to the hellish sufferings of the many thousands in the torture chambers of the [Soviet] GPU. The babies went flying through the air in a big arc and we shot them down as they flew, before they fell into the grave or into the water. Let's get rid of this brood [of Jews], who pushed all of Europe into war and is now agitating America also until it too is dragged into the war. The words of Hitler, who on one occasion before the war, said: "If the Jews believe they can once again ignite a war in Europe, then this will not be a victory for the Jews but rather the end of Jewry in Europe", will become true...

Damn it! I never saw so much blood, {!#%@}, bones, and flesh. Now I can understand the phrase "drunk with blood."
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:31 pm

nickterry wrote: instead you blundered on to act as if the Nazis had never said anything along those lines.

Please copy and paste what makes you think that. What I've said repeatedly is that what the Nazi's did say is IRRELEVANT--to what the German people actually thought: on which you agree with me which was and is the only relevant point.

You argue like this: I say Germany lost WW2. You say they had better tanks and then argue I don't know anything if I haven't read Tank Building 101. English and Logic.

EDIT: and then SM adds in a letter from a German worker at the Tank Factory #42: "Gosh, we build good tanks. No way those Jews are going to win this war." Is that wire pulling..... or what?

You fail.

EDIT: you both fail. But then SM was wrong from the Start and continues through. Nick: do you expressly recognize you agree with position and simply changed the subject.... to one on which was also agree? The latter argument (Nazi's) not being the same as Germans? And yes: sticking to the subject. Othewise.... the war or opinions of Germans vs Nazis will devolve into discussion of bratwurst.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:39 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You and SM change the subject to one in which we all agree, then you say you won the initial DIFFERENT point.

By the way this is a lie. In reply to my post quoting the {!#%@} Führer ("from 30 January 1942: 'We are fully aware that this war can end either in the extermination of the Aryan people or in the disappearance of Jewry from Europe'"), you quibbled, "the extermination of the Aryan people caused by war is NOT SAYING the Jews wanted to kill Germans."

Far from its being the case "What I've said repeatedly is that what the Nazi's did say is IRRELEVANT--to what the German people actually thought," you tried having it that the leading Nazis and Nazi propagandists never made the kill-or-be-killed argument . . .

Nor is it irrelevant what leading Nazis, Nazi propaganda and news organizations, etc said, wrote, promoted.

You don't know squat, and your frantic, self-contradictory ass-covering panic is as amusing as it is dishonest.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:46 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You and SM change the subject to one in which we all agree, then you say you won the initial DIFFERENT point.

By the way this is a lie. In reply to my post quoting the {!#%@} Führer ("from 30 January 1942: 'We are fully aware that this war can end either in the extermination of the Aryan people or in the disappearance of Jewry from Europe'"), you quibbled, "the extermination of the Aryan people caused by war is NOT SAYING the Jews wanted to kill Germans."

Far from its being the case "What I've said repeatedly is that what the Nazi's did say is IRRELEVANT--to what the German people actually thought," you tried having it that the leading Nazis and Nazi propagandists never made the kill-or-be-killed argument . . .

Nor is it irrelevant what leading Nazis, Nazi propaganda and news organizations, etc said, wrote, promoted.

You don't know squat, and your frantic, self-contradictory ass-covering panic is as amusing as it is dishonest.


SM--note the flexibility: yes....I agree if the German People thought the Jews wanted the extermination of the Aryan Race....then I think it would be fair to say the Jews wanted to kill Germans. Fair.... but not accurate. I actually study LINGUISTICS.... which is why I harp on words...... and love them so. Too many subtleties to go into..... the difference between wishing a race of people to be eradicated and actually killing individuals. Only the Nazi's actually did that.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:50 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:SM..... nickterry destroyed your argument and repeated mine.

You CONFLATE what the Nazi's wanted to achieve with what the German people believed.

Be direct, honest, recognize mistakes, learn, grow.......... and lighten up. All too rigid.



Hey, bobbo?

A suggestion.

Before discussing a subject that you admit you've never studied, my suggestion is that you read up on the subject first.

Here:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26239

There are any number of books on the subject that you can read. I actually have some suggestions but you probably want to start with some books on WW II first.

Andrew Roberts wrote a book called "The Storm of War." It's a good start, it's one volume and it is relatively short. Ignore the chapter on the Holocaust.

You also might want to read a few books on Nazi Germany. Richard Evans wrote the Third Reich Trilogy. The first two books dealt with conditions before Hitler came to power and the conditions that existed in Germany during the 30's. Again, a good start. Mark Mazowar wrote a book called "Hitler's Empire," also a good overall view of conditions in Germany and the occupied countries.

A good starter book on the Holocaust is Laurence Rees' "Auschwitz, a New History." If you have Netflix the BBC did a mini-series based on the book. Don't be fooled by the title, Rees examines all aspects of the "Final Solution," albeit in a cursory way.
You can also check the thread I gave you, there are a lot of other books on the subject.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:57 pm

I mentioned Kretschmer's letters home, too, in this discussion. Kretschmer, previously a pharmacist, became a member of Einsatzgruppe C during the war and during 1942 leader of SK 4a. In the late '70s he was interviewed by Claude Lanzmann about what he'd meant in some of his letters home. Here's a relevant excerpt from that interview (transcription) - relevant especially in that Kretschmer recalls the messages of Goebbels' propaganda organization, as mentioned upthread:
Q - … why… for example, I’ll pose my questions… why, for example, do you write… it’s September 27th, ’42… you write… “since the war, according to our estimation, is a Jewish war… the Jews get to feel it first-hand”…
K - … yes…
Q - … first of all, what does it mean: “according to our view, a Jewish war”… what does that mean?
K - … eh… don’t you know the Propaganda Minister Goebbels… they constantly played that tune… and did that… that was drilled into us…
Q - … but that means… that you believed it… back then…
K - … yes… I can… what I believed back then and what I (believe) today… there are… eh… 35 years difference… my opinion has changed significantly…
Q - … but back then, it was your opinion… my question is very clear… what is the meaning of…
K - … now, eh…
Q - … of this expression, “a Jewish war”?
K - … we had to… we had to somehow… eh… eh… after all, there were propaganda speeches held over and over again…
Q - … but there was no war with the Jews… it was a war with America… with Russia… not the Jews, no Jews…
K - … yes, well… we were… who was involved in the American administration… there were Jews all over it… today, there are Jews inside there again…
Q - … in the American administration?

Transcript of the Shoah Interview with Karl Kretschmer
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:00 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:SM--note the flexibility: yes....I agree if the German People thought the Jews wanted the extermination of the Aryan Race....then I think it would be fair to say the Jews wanted to kill Germans. Fair.... but not accurate. I actually study LINGUISTICS....

You show no signs of this, either.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:which is why I harp on words...... and love them so. Too many subtleties to go into..... the difference between wishing a race of people to be eradicated and actually killing individuals. Only the Nazi's actually did that.

What in god's name are you going on about?
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:04 am

SM: That is an excellent quote from Kretschmer's letters home. It actually, though confusingly so given the discussion to date here, reflects much of my own thinking. Might Germans parrot the Nazi Propaganda? Go along to get along?? Most assuredly so. But did they "BELIEVE IT." the quoted material could be taken either way on that question.

Still: thats one guy. Add them up. What did a whole group of people "really" believe 70 years ago? Pulease. We can't get agreement on what people "really believe" today.... on any issue. That gives up Brexit and calls to repeal Obama Care. Getting insulting about it............... is just silly.

It mostly depends on how you DEFINE each and every word of the question..... and then sticking to those definitions.

Hard to do............ takes .......... practice.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:09 am

Jeff: not to quibble too much, but I didn't say I "never" studied history. I said I haven't studied history to FOCUS the discussion on what is actually determinative: what the heck is the issue? The issue is not the History. The issue is: are we talking about The German People or are we talking about the Nazi's.........or are we talking about the goals of Nazi Propaganda.

You actually don't have to know anything about History to answer that question..... on the following discussion...yes. On the initial question?.... No.

Do you see the distinction..... or would YOU benefit from "How to Argue"...by anyone.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:19 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:SM: That is an excellent quote from Kretschmer's letters home. It actually, though confusingly so given the discussion to date here, reflects much of my own thinking.

Stop making up crap. We've all read your posts.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Might Germans parrot the Nazi Propaganda?

Parrot? Is this one of your linguistics concepts? It's not what Kretschmer explained, however.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:What did a whole group of people "really" believe 70 years ago?

Did anyone argue that he or she knows what a whole group of people really believed? No. So stop strawmannirg.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Hard to do............ takes .......... practice.

Hardest of all for you, seeing as to you proudly
haven't studied History.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:25 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
What did a whole group of people "really" believe 70 years ago?


Did anyone argue that he or she knows what a whole group of people really believed? No. So stop strawmannirg.


Ha, ha. OK SM: Did some Germans believe it? Of course. do some anybody believe anything that can be thought of? Of course.

What a silly rabbit.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:45 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Jeff: not to quibble too much, but I didn't say I "never" studied history. I said I haven't studied history to FOCUS the discussion on what is actually determinative: what the heck is the issue? The issue is not the History. The issue is: are we talking about The German People or are we talking about the Nazi's.........or are we talking about the goals of Nazi Propaganda.

You actually don't have to know anything about History to answer that question..... on the following discussion...yes. On the initial question?.... No.

Do you see the distinction..... or would YOU benefit from "How to Argue"...by anyone.


If you actually took the time to study the history involved you would know what shaped both the Germans and the Nazis.

For example, I know (because I read a great deal about it) that the Germans (not hardcore Nazis) were very uncomfortable (in the beginning, at least) with outward displays of anti-Semiticism by the SA (do you know who the SA were, Bobbo?) and the SS (again, do you know who they were, Bobbo?). I also know (because I read a great deal about it) that this was often split along religious lines, Catholic and Protestant, with Catholics often showing a more sympathetic attitude (not to make too general a statement). I also know (because I read a great deal about it) that German attitudes were often split along age lines, with older people often showing a more sympathetic attitude towards Jews than the young who absorbed much more anti-Jewish propaganda from an earlier age and for a longer period of time.
I also know that German attitudes gradually hardened over time towards Jews. For example, the boycott arranged by the Nazis on April 1st, 1933 was a miserable failure. However, later actions proved more successful because propaganda does work...but even in 1938 most Germans were appalled by Kristallnacht.
I also know that some Germans believed that the Allied bombing campaign was revenge for what they did to the Jews.

So, you see, Bobbo, I am more qualified to discuss this than you do. I also know what German attitudes were towards the Poles. And the Soviets. I know what German soldiers thought about Jews, Poles and Soviets because the literature I read covers THAT as well.

So, I go back to what I said originally:
Read more about a subject before spouting off on it. Your pseudo pop psychology doesn't impress me. I was actually trying to be nice to you by suggesting the books I did so you wouldn't look so ignorant.

No offense intended, of course.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:51 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I was actually trying to be nice to you by suggesting the books I did so you wouldn't look so ignorant.

Yes, you were. That confused the hell out of me.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:56 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I was actually trying to be nice to you by suggesting the books I did so you wouldn't look so ignorant.

Yes, you were. That confused the hell out of me.



That's OK, sometimes I confuse the hell out of myself...and I'm the one who wrote it.

:lol:

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:03 am

LOL

As to INCE's car-attack, the only thing I can find is the truck-attack, but the facts of that situation bear so little resemblance to INCE's post on this that I wonder if there wasn't another attack not receiving as much news attention . . .
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:08 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:LOL

As to INCE's car-attack, the only thing I can find is the truck-attack, but the facts of that situation bear so little resemblance to INCE's post on this that I wonder if there wasn't another attack not receiving as much news attention . . .


Yeah, I'm puzzled by this as well. I would think two attacks close to one another would share equal time.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:18 am

True . . . but the truck-attack had a security guard and cadets firing at the driver of the truck - and the NY Times says that the terrorist was shot ("the police released images showing the truck’s windshield riddled with bullet holes"), whilst France24 and other news organizations report that he was killed in gunfire. Just doesn't sound like the same set of facts . . .
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:19 am

Jeff: I posted that the initial question/issue was NOT ABOUT HISTORY. And you responded with Tanks 101.

Do you see the disconnect?
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:25 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:True . . . but the truck-attack had a security guard and cadets firing at the driver of the truck - and the NY Times says that the terrorist was shot ("the police released images showing the truck’s windshield riddled with bullet holes"), whilst France24 and other news organizations report that he was killed in gunfire. Just doesn't sound like the same set of facts . . .


I think INCE made a mistake with the initial details from the attack.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:27 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Jeff: I posted that the initial question/issue was NOT ABOUT HISTORY. And you responded with Tanks 101.

Do you see the disconnect?


It has everything to do with history.

If you don't know anything about the history then you can't comment about German/Nazi attitudes from that time period.

Do YOU see the disconnect?

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:27 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I think INCE made a mistake with the initial details from the attack.

Well, the truck-attack facts don't support his ironic depiction . . .
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:31 am

I agree. From what I saw on the video looks like shock and then reaction, not hesitation.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:45 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Jeff: I posted that the initial question/issue was NOT ABOUT HISTORY. And you responded with Tanks 101.

Do you see the disconnect?


It has everything to do with history.

If you don't know anything about the history then you can't comment about German/Nazi attitudes from that time period.

Do YOU see the disconnect?

Arrogant {!#%@} in clown suit stumbles into a subforum that's ABOUT HISTORY of the Third Reich and the extermination of European Jews . . . tells us our knowledge is a problematic artifact of studying the subject too much, that he himself hasn't studied history, and that a historical question is NOT ABOUT HISTORY. I suggest bobbo the clown find a nice LINGUISTICS subforum somewhere and dazzle himself there with his vacuous psychobabble and cunning linguistic stylings. He's got no business here.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817


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