IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

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IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Ian Hazard » Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:52 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_C25ssc-mU

I expect most of the regulars here will invent excuses to exonerate the shooter of any wrongdoing.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:58 pm

Nope.

This is an anti HD forum, not a middle eastern politics forum.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby NathanC » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:12 pm

I expect that the spammer just created an account to post bait. And will then disappear and never be heard from again.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Ian Hazard » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:22 pm

I am not a spammer. If it had been an American neo-Nazi pulling that trigger this topic would be on page five by now.

Dodging noted.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:25 pm

Ian Hazard wrote:I expect most of the regulars here will invent excuses to exonerate the shooter of any wrongdoing.

Not likely, as the "regulars" here tend not to favor murder - certainly not the murder of wounded suspects (you can read in a number of threads such viewpoints, e.g., about the murder during WWII of captured personnel). There are some irregulars who are ok with the mass murder of Jews but wouldn't like this murder on account of the identity and nationality of the perpetrator: they'd express a certain faux outrage which they reserve for crimes committed by Jews.

Most regulars, I think, will be outraged by this murder but also quizzical as to why you show up here posting an assumption that regulars here are ok with the shooting innocent people.

One additionally disturbing dimension of this murder is that while the authorities plan to charge the shooter, Elor Azraya, simultaneously they "will examine the incidents surrounding the shooting and make a decision as to whether the military authorised the shooting before it occurred, The Jerusalem Post reports" (from The Independent). If this shooting was authorized, it also implicates whoever authorized it rather than, as The Independent implies, exonerates Elor Azraya or relativizes his action. In this case, assuming that the murder was authorized, not only Elor Azraya but also those who authorized this crime should be charged. I will be following this case to see what eventuates - and whether it turns out like a Rahm Emanuel investigation of murder by cop in Chicago.

The story was a major item in The Independent which is where I learned of it.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:27 pm

Ian Hazard wrote:I am not a spammer. If it had been an American neo-Nazi pulling that trigger this topic would be on page five by now.

Dodging noted.


For the record I am opposed to the occupation of the west bank and I support a two state solution along the parameters of the 2003 Geneva initiative. I view Netenyahu and Likud as fascistic and I'm opposed strongly to the settlement project.

I am sure most of the posters here share my opinions. It is a curious habit for deniers to associate those who seek to defend objective historical truth with the leadership of some middle eastern country we have never been to.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Ian Hazard » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:30 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
This is an anti HD forum, not a middle eastern politics forum.


Please explain to me why discussing the 2016 American presidential race is considered fine by you, but any mention of an innocent civilian being murdered in ghetto by the military forces of a racist state is considered off topic.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:31 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Ian Hazard wrote:I expect most of the regulars here will invent excuses to exonerate the shooter of any wrongdoing.

Not likely, as the "regulars" here tend not to favor murder - certainly not the murder of wounded suspects (you can read in a number of threads such viewpoints, e.g., about the murder during WWII of captured personnel). There are some irregulars who are ok with the mass murder of Jews but wouldn't like this murder on account of the identity and nationality of the perpetrator.

One additionally disturbing dimension of this murder is that while the authorities plan to charge the shooter, Elor Azraya, simultaneously they "will examine the incidents surrounding the shooting and make a decision as to whether the military authorised the shooting before it occurred, The Jerusalem Post reports" (from The Independent). If this shooting was authorized, it also implicates whoever authorized it rather than, as The Independent implies, exonerates Elor Azraya or relativizes his action. In this case, assuming that the murder was authorized,not only Elor Azraya but also those who authorized this crime should be charged. I will be following this case to see what eventuates - and whether it turns out like a Rahm Emanuel investigation of murder by cop in Chicago.


IDF members are required to disobey illegal orders. This rule was initiated after a massacre in 1962. So even if it is found that he was ordered to shoot the victim, he is {!#%@} anyway because it was an unlawful order. However, as we have seen in the past four decades, many an illegal order has been followed by Israelis. I for one hope that the shooter is punished severely.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:33 pm

Ian Hazard wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
This is an anti HD forum, not a middle eastern politics forum.


Please explain to me why discussing the 2016 American presidential race is considered fine by you, but any mention of an innocent civilian being murdered in ghetto by the military forces of a racist state is considered off topic.


Because the election discussion did not start out as an election discussion - it originally was a frank chat on European antisemitic violence, then ISIS. Incidents in a sandbox on the other side of the world are not relevant.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:33 pm

I am fine with the topic. It's off topic, but so too are the original Charlie Hebdo thread and the Paris thread. No problem from my pov. My problem is the unwarranted assumption you make.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:35 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Ian Hazard wrote:I expect most of the regulars here will invent excuses to exonerate the shooter of any wrongdoing.

Not likely, as the "regulars" here tend not to favor murder - certainly not the murder of wounded suspects (you can read in a number of threads such viewpoints, e.g., about the murder during WWII of captured personnel). There are some irregulars who are ok with the mass murder of Jews but wouldn't like this murder on account of the identity and nationality of the perpetrator.

One additionally disturbing dimension of this murder is that while the authorities plan to charge the shooter, Elor Azraya, simultaneously they "will examine the incidents surrounding the shooting and make a decision as to whether the military authorised the shooting before it occurred, The Jerusalem Post reports" (from The Independent). If this shooting was authorized, it also implicates whoever authorized it rather than, as The Independent implies, exonerates Elor Azraya or relativizes his action. In this case, assuming that the murder was authorized,not only Elor Azraya but also those who authorized this crime should be charged. I will be following this case to see what eventuates - and whether it turns out like a Rahm Emanuel investigation of murder by cop in Chicago.


IDF members are required to disobey illegal orders. This rule was initiated after a massacre in 1962. So even if it is found that he was ordered to shoot the victim, he is {!#%@} anyway because it was an unlawful order. However, as we have seen in the past four decades, many an illegal order has been followed by Israelis. I for one hope that the shooter is punished severely.

Which he should be, {!#%@} in any event. But then so too should his commanders if they gave the illegal order hinted at in what I quoted. I don't like the lining up of ducks, so to speak, to find a way to let this go . . .
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:36 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I am fine with the topic. It's off topic, but so too are the original Charlie Hebdo thread and the Paris thread. No problem from my pov. My problem is the unwarranted assumption you make.


Exactly. He, like Traynor, imagines that we are all a bunch of Ewiw Joooos gathered around a tble at the King David hotel, plotting world domination. It's not the cass, I have made my views on Israel quite clear.

Ian is welcome to check out my thread on the Israel=Palestine conflict in the Politics subforum.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:38 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Ian Hazard wrote:I expect most of the regulars here will invent excuses to exonerate the shooter of any wrongdoing.

Not likely, as the "regulars" here tend not to favor murder - certainly not the murder of wounded suspects (you can read in a number of threads such viewpoints, e.g., about the murder during WWII of captured personnel). There are some irregulars who are ok with the mass murder of Jews but wouldn't like this murder on account of the identity and nationality of the perpetrator.

One additionally disturbing dimension of this murder is that while the authorities plan to charge the shooter, Elor Azraya, simultaneously they "will examine the incidents surrounding the shooting and make a decision as to whether the military authorised the shooting before it occurred, The Jerusalem Post reports" (from The Independent). If this shooting was authorized, it also implicates whoever authorized it rather than, as The Independent implies, exonerates Elor Azraya or relativizes his action. In this case, assuming that the murder was authorized,not only Elor Azraya but also those who authorized this crime should be charged. I will be following this case to see what eventuates - and whether it turns out like a Rahm Emanuel investigation of murder by cop in Chicago.


IDF members are required to disobey illegal orders. This rule was initiated after a massacre in 1962. So even if it is found that he was ordered to shoot the victim, he is {!#%@} anyway because it was an unlawful order. However, as we have seen in the past four decades, many an illegal order has been followed by Israelis. I for one hope that the shooter is punished severely.

Which he should be, {!#%@} in any event. But then so too should his commanders if they gave the illegal order hinted at in what I quoted. I don't like the lining up of ducks, so to speak, to find a way to let this go . . .


He probably will be imprisoned but I'm not optimistic about his bosses sharing the fate. You have to understand that this current Israeli government is their version of UKIP or the Front Nationale.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:39 pm

Oh, I know that . . . I am simply stating what should happen and trying to say what pisses me off. They create the climate, they may even give the orders - and they aren't even questioned.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Ian Hazard » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:49 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
One additionally disturbing dimension of this murder is that while the authorities plan to charge the shooter, Elor Azraya, simultaneously they "will examine the incidents surrounding the shooting and make a decision as to whether the military authorised the shooting before it occurred, The Jerusalem Post reports" (from The Independent). If this shooting was authorized, it also implicates whoever authorized it rather than, as The Independent implies, exonerates Elor Azraya or relativizes his action. In this case, assuming that the murder was authorized, not only Elor Azraya but also those who authorized this crime should be charged. I will be following this case to see what eventuates - and whether it turns out like a Rahm Emanuel investigation of murder by cop in Chicago.

The story was a major item in The Independent which is where I learned of it.


I think the reactions of the other Israelis to the shooting give the game away. No one attempted to stop that soldier pulling the trigger and afterwards no one so much as blinks an eyelid.

There were Israelis there in civilian clothing. One of whom can be seen putting his fingers in his ears just before the shooting occurs. I am wondering how many of those guys were plain clothes police.

The Israelis certainly appear to have a shoot to kill policy when they don't think there are cameras around, and it is pretty obvious to me this guy will walk after the "investigation" has run its course.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:51 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Oh, I know that . . . I am simply stating what should happen and trying to say what pisses me off. They create the climate, they may even give the orders - and they aren't even questioned.


There was a time when they had a small degree of accountability. In 1983, after the Sabra and Shatila massacre, a senior Israeli General resigned in protest. A subsequent inquiry basically wrecked the career of Ariel Sharon for two decades, before he made a comeback by exploiting the second intifadah with Trump-esque rhetoric.

Nowadays, with this government and major societal shift to the hard right triggered by 1) exploding birthrates among Haredim, 2) a growing population of Russian Jewish immigrants, most of whom have nationalistic and conservative views, 3) a growing settler population, and 4) the legacy of the second intifadah, I would be surprised if Netenyahu even attempts to address it.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:56 pm

Very much like police shootings in US. The footage negates Azraya's reported defense - he claims he feared for his life. No one else was in fear for his life, judging from body language and recorded actions. They were just milling around and one of them shot what appears to be a badly injured suspect as if it were a normal day's work. The people who create and foster the climate and racist attitudes are IMO at least as guilty as the person pulling the trigger in such a case. Reading a couple articles on this makes me suspect that no one will be brought to account, not Azraya and certainly not one of the authorities who may have pre-approved shooting a wounded suspect in the head! There's a war on, the guy was a terrorist, our lives were in danger, they have it coming, etc. Already, according to The Jerusalem Post, it may be that Azraya on account of "superior orders." Disgusting.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Ian Hazard » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:57 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Exactly. He, like Traynor, imagines that we are all a bunch of Ewiw Joooos gathered around a tble at the King David hotel, plotting world domination. It's not the cass, I have made my views on Israel quite clear.



Don't ever presume to tell me what I think.

Unlike you I prefer to deal in facts. In the short time I have been conversing with you, I and everyone else here, has learned you are a hypocrite and a dodger.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:58 pm

Ian Hazard wrote:
I think the reactions of the other Israelis to the shooting give the game away. No one attempted to stop that soldier pulling the trigger and afterwards no one so much as blinked an eyelid.


I believe that it was a collective decision on part of the soldiers there.

There were Israelis there in civilian clothing. One of whom can be seen putting his fingers in his ears just before the shooting occurs. I am wondering how many of those guys were plain clothes police.


No plainclothes police. This happened in the west bank and the Israelis you see there are settlers, who are known to hold racist and insane views. This would not have been upsetting to them. They're not nice people.

The Israelis certainly appear to have a shoot to kill policy when they don't think there are cameras around, and it is pretty obvious to me this guy will walk after the "investigation" has run its course.


I wouldn't call it an overarching policy so much as a set of ingrained actions in some units. Some IDF brigades seem to have a higher preponderance of these incidents than others, this was likely something that he had done before.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:59 pm

Ian Hazard wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Exactly. He, like Traynor, imagines that we are all a bunch of Ewiw Joooos gathered around a tble at the King David hotel, plotting world domination. It's not the cass, I have made my views on Israel quite clear.



Don't ever presume to tell me what I think.

Unlike you I prefer to deal in facts. In the short time I have been conversing with you, I and everyone else here, has learned you are a hypocrite and a dodger.


I have expressed clear anti-occupation opinions and I have harshly criticized the murder. You have not read a word of what I wrote.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:01 pm

Ian Hazard wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Exactly. He, like Traynor, imagines that we are all a bunch of Ewiw Joooos gathered around a tble at the King David hotel, plotting world domination. It's not the cass, I have made my views on Israel quite clear.



Don't ever presume to tell me what I think.

Unlike you I prefer to deal in facts. In the short time I have been conversing with you, I and everyone else here, has learned you are a hypocrite and a dodger.

Well, you have the clearly documented problem of having assumed that "most of the regulars here will invent excuses to exonerate the shooter of any wrongdoing." No one has done so, but you've only heard from three out of five or so "regulars." Oh wait, even if 2 out of 2 more try exonerating the shooter, you were still wrong. Or 3 of 3 more, still not most.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Ian Hazard » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:10 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Ian Hazard wrote:
I think the reactions of the other Israelis to the shooting give the game away. No one attempted to stop that soldier pulling the trigger and afterwards no one so much as blinked an eyelid.


I believe that it was a collective decision on part of the soldiers there.


It is more likely to be a standard operating procedure they have seen many times before.

Jeff_36 wrote:
Ian Hazard wrote:There were Israelis there in civilian clothing. One of whom can be seen putting his fingers in his ears just before the shooting occurs. I am wondering how many of those guys were plain clothes police.


No plainclothes police. This happened in the west bank and the Israelis you see there are settlers, who are known to hold racist and insane views. This would not have been upsetting to them. They're not nice people.


Evidence there are no police present or admit you made the above it up in an amateurish attempt at damage limitation.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:20 pm

You made a guess, Jeff made a guess and told us by what line of thought - but somehow it's Jeff who needs to "evidence" his guess . . . you're coming off a bit unhinged. I get it - no one here reacted as you assumed "most" would, but try getting a grip.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Gord » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:54 pm

Ian Hazard wrote:There were Israelis there in civilian clothing. One of whom can be seen putting his fingers in his ears just before the shooting occurs. I am wondering how many of those guys were plain clothes police.

Do you think plain clothes police are trained to put their fingers in their ears before a gun is fired?
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:22 pm

Ian Hazard wrote:
Evidence there are no police present or admit you made the above it up in an amateurish attempt at damage limitation.


Moron, I made a clear anti-settler statement. Hardly damage limitation.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Monster » Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:08 am

Ian Hazard wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_C25ssc-mU

I expect most of the regulars here will invent excuses to exonerate the shooter of any wrongdoing.

Why did the soldier shoot the guy on the street?
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Xcalibur » Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:35 am

Source of the video?

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:55 am

According to The Independent, amateur footage, unidentified person. Also this article. This has all the appearance of being a war crime. The Intercept says that the video was released by an Israeli group that monitors rights abuses and that:
In a statement accompanying the video, B’Tselem explains that the video recorded by “Emad abu-Shamsiyah, a Hebron resident, shows al-Sharif lying on the road injured, with none of the soldiers or medics present giving him first aid or paying him any attention at all.”
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"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:57 am

Monster wrote:Why did the soldier shoot the guy on the street?
I don't understand that at all. I have no idea what they were waiting around for. I thought they may have been waiting for the ambulances to leave, but that wasn't it either. Why shoot him at all when he may have information? No one seemed to be particularly angry so I doubt it was an emotional act.

Anyway, I'm not going to keep guessing, when this event will obviously be investigated.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:03 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Monster wrote:Why did the soldier shoot the guy on the street?
I don't understand that at all. I have no idea what they were waiting around for. I thought they may have been waiting for the ambulances to leave, but that wasn't it either. Why shoot him at all when he may have information? No one seemed to be particularly angry so I doubt it was an emotional act.

Anyway, I'm not going to keep guessing, when this event will obviously be investigated.

The Independent article and piece in The Intercept strike IMO the right tone - this is on its face very disturbing and, given the apparent nonchalance of the soldiers present and other details, I'd be less inclined to say wait and see and more to express outrage and make sure of pressure to hold the IDF to its statement of values.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Gord » Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:04 am

A lot of them seemed to be on their phones quite a lot. Maybe they sent images to someone higher up who then ordered the guy killed. But who knows?

I think this video explains it better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x67sNvWAR_w

It certainly looks like an execution.
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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Xcalibur » Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:13 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:According to The Independent, amateur footage, unidentified person. Also this article. This has all the appearance of being a war crime. The Intercept says that the video was released by an Israeli group that monitors rights abuses and that:
In a statement accompanying the video, B’Tselem explains that the video recorded by “Emad abu-Shamsiyah, a Hebron resident, shows al-Sharif lying on the road injured, with none of the soldiers or medics present giving him first aid or paying him any attention at all.”



Thanks..... Yup, It's a bad shoot. Disgustingly, plainly murder.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:29 am

Xcalibur wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:According to The Independent, amateur footage, unidentified person. Also this article. This has all the appearance of being a war crime. The Intercept says that the video was released by an Israeli group that monitors rights abuses and that:
In a statement accompanying the video, B’Tselem explains that the video recorded by “Emad abu-Shamsiyah, a Hebron resident, shows al-Sharif lying on the road injured, with none of the soldiers or medics present giving him first aid or paying him any attention at all.”


Thanks..... Yup, It's a bad shoot. Disgustingly, plainly murder.

/Ian mode/ another regular tries making excuses to exonerate the shooter /end Ian mode/
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:11 pm

Gord wrote:A lot of them seemed to be on their phones quite a lot. Maybe they sent images to someone higher up who then ordered the guy killed. But who knows?

I think this video explains it better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x67sNvWAR_w

It certainly looks like an execution.


As I elaborated above, the shooter is {!#%@}, one way or another. If he did it on his own then he is a murderer. If he did it as a result of an order, then he is guilty of obeying an illegal order.

The real question here, and StatMech has pondered it as well, is whether or not his commanders will be brought to justice as well, assuming it was the second scenario.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:16 pm

Ok I have good news and bad news

The good news: The shooter has been detained and has been charged with murder. Moshe Yaalon, one of the more hard line Israeli politicians ever, has condemned the shooter.

The bad news: Bibi The Fascist acts like an imbecile

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Balsamo » Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:26 pm

My position on that {!#%@}?

The result of years and years of denials, self persuasion, propaganda, and for those murderers, a long history of almost impunity.
This video is not unique, and if this time a cold blood execution is caught on tape, the scenes before the murder are also shameful, with two ambulances ignoring the wounded (was the other one already dead? who knows as nobody check.) Speaking of BS, the phrase "Tzahal is the most moral army in the world" is unbeatable! Worse than a Myth, a permanent and repeated LIE.
The IDF just does not respect ANY international norms when on duty.

There will be more disgrace to come as i have no doubts that there will be determined commentators who will try to justify it all around the net-world. I have still not checked, though.

It is also important to point out that those images and these denunciations - and there are many- mostly comes from Jews/Israelis who do not accept this criminal evolution. The actual far right regime is rotting the Israeli society with pure racism, but the more one gets to extreme the more one can expects reactions from citizens, Israelis and internationals alike.

As a side note: How is it that one is suspected to agree with murder when defending history vs propaganda? Is understanding the Holocaust a hint that we would support Jewish criminals? Never understood that.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:35 pm

Balsamo wrote:My position on that {!#%@}?. . . There will be more disgrace to come as i have no doubts that there will be determined commentators who will try to justify it all around the net-world. I have still not checked, though.

One link supplied by Jeff describes this travesty, as you say.

Balsamo wrote:It is also important to point out that those images and these denunciations - and there are many- mostly comes from Jews/Israelis who do not accept this criminal evolution.

Absolutely in this case, spelled out in The Intercept article I linked to.

Balsamo wrote:As a side note: How is it that one is suspected to agree with murder when defending history vs propaganda? Is understanding the Holocaust a hint that we would support Jewish criminals? Never understood that.

Ian’s little game seems to have blown up in his face with not most “regulars” downplaying the crimes or exonerating the shooter but exactly so far zero having done so.

An apparently worthless piece of {!#%@}, Ian too I mean.
"World peace is certainly an ideal worth striving for; in Hitler's opinion it will be realizable only when one power, the racially best one, has attained complete and uncontested supremacy. That can then provide a sort of world police, seeing to it at the same time that the most valuable race is guaranteed the necessary living space. And if no other way is open to them, the lower races will have to restrict themselves accordingly."

- Rudolf Hess, letter, 1927

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:15 pm

Balsamo wrote: Speaking of BS, the phrase "Tzahal is the most moral army in the world" is unbeatable! Worse than a Myth, a permanent and repeated LIE.
The IDF just does not respect ANY international norms when on duty.


There was a time when they behaved slightly, very slightly better than other middle eastern armies (still worse than say Belgium, the US or Canada) but ever since Bibi The Fascist came to power they are falling down the tunnel of barbarity.

There will be more disgrace to come as i have no doubts that there will be determined commentators who will try to justify it all around the net-world. I have still not checked, though.


I disagree. Most Israeli newspapers have condemned it harshly, as have many politicians. The real question is weather or not Bibi The Fascist will do anything about it. As one can see from my link, the odds are not good. Anyone who defends this {!#%@} needs to be pimp-slapped.

It is also important to point out that those images and these denunciations - and there are many- mostly comes from Jews/Israelis who do not accept this criminal evolution.


Exactly. The director of B'tselem, the NGO that published the footage, is the leader of an Israeli social democratic party. The problem is that people like her are increasingly rare, and more and more of them have embraced lunatic messianic views not at all different from Fascist Spain.

As a side note: How is it that one is suspected to agree with murder when defending history vs propaganda? Is understanding the Holocaust a hint that we would support Jewish criminals? Never understood that.


Ian is not that bright.

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Balsamo » Sun Mar 27, 2016 9:18 pm

Jeff:

There was a time when they behaved slightly, very slightly better than other middle eastern armies (still worse than say Belgium, the US or Canada) but ever since Bibi The Fascist came to power they are falling down the tunnel of barbarity.


I might surprise you but my rage goes to the propagandists who sell these kind of BS. There is just no such thing as a "military force with high morality", i don't have any illusions about the Belgian Army and how they behave in the Congo during the independence war, the US - lol - abbu Graib?, and the last time the Canadians were really involved in action - D-Day? - it is said they killed hitler jungend and waffen SS on spot (Anthony Beevor)
What i mean is that i have never heard any example of such example of media propaganda to convince the world that an army was just morally superior to all. Even the UN forces deployed to "maintain peace" are not exempted from scandals going from torture to rape and even pedophilia...It just does not exist. Those guys are not trained and formed to become Hippies, but to be ready to kill...and even for a soldier, to kill is not easy, so they are trained to hate.
The only thing that can have an effect on the army behavior, is its high command. The scene on this video is just an illustration of the current mood of the high command. Just look the video, did anyone present protest? Nope...not even the "red star" guys or whatever one calls them...So what is shown on this video goes beyond just military matters.

I disagree. Most Israeli newspapers have condemned it harshly, as have many politicians. The real question is weather or not Bibi The Fascist will do anything about it. As one can see from my link, the odds are not good. Anyone who defends this {!#%@} needs to be pimp-slapped.


I did not mean the press and the media, but those legions of anonymous posters on net flooding the "comments sections"...
Just like those available on the comment section of the link you posted on Bibi...

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Re: IDF soldier executes unconscious Palestinian

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Mar 27, 2016 11:15 pm

Balsamo wrote:Jeff
I might surprise you but my rage goes to the propagandists who sell these kind of BS. There is just no such thing as a "military force with high morality"


I agree that the description of the IDF as the "most moral army in the world" is false, and that he notion of a "moral army" is a misnomer, but there is a difference in conduct between savagery and civility. Compare the actions of, say, the Serbian Army in the 90's with the western forces in that area at that time.

i don't have any illusions about the Belgian Army and how they behave in the Congo during the independence war,


True.

the US - lol - abbu Graib?


That was a few redneck inbred hicks with too much power and maybe a brain cell and a half to share.

,
and the last time the Canadians were really involved in action - D-Day? - it is said they killed hitler jungend and waffen SS on spot (Anthony Beevor)


You're damn right they did! :D

Context: the SS had massacred a few hundred Canadian POW's after D-Day and the killings you mention were considered justified retaliation. I endorse them fully and unreservedly. You must remember that the 12th SS was known by other SS as "the murder division" and had a record of war crimes in Russia. I doubt the world is a worse place without them.

Also: the killings of SS prisoners were usually individual actions in the heat of the moment by platoons here and there, not a integral part of division culture like it was with the 12th SS, where killings of Canadian prisoners were endorsed by battalion and regiment commanders, and often occurred after interrogations.

Even the UN forces deployed to "maintain peace" are not exempted from scandals going from torture to rape and even pedophilia...


There was such a case in Bosnia.

The only thing that can have an effect on the army behavior, is its high command. The scene on this video is just an illustration of the current mood of the high command. Just look the video, did anyone present protest? Nope...not even the "red star" guys or whatever one calls them...So what is shown on this video goes beyond just military matters.


Recall that this happened in Hebron, which is in the occupied West Bank, and that the Israeli civilians you see there are settlers. The ambulances would be staffed by local Israelis, that is settlers. The settlers are a pretty despicable bunch, and I don't think this would upset them. If it were to happen in Tel Aviv, where the people are more civilized the reaction may have been different.

But in sum, I agree with you that this is a cultural issue within the IDF. I don't think that he was ordered to execute the guy, if that was the case then he would not have been charged , but I think that this is an informal practice that has been done many times before.


I did not mean the press and the media, but those legions of anonymous posters on net flooding the "comments sections"...
Just like those available on the comment section of the link you posted on Bibi...


Lemmie check.... Nope most of the comments are quite strongly criticizing the killer and Bibi The Fascist.

this from "Abbasid"
"All Jews to the ovens, time for a new Hitler to wipe these kuffar from the face of the Earth."

{!#%@} like that demonstrates that Anti-Zionisim is often just a cover phrase for antisemitism.

meanwhile a great gem of wisdom from "Hanyman", really showing the hateful hordes the need to distinguish:
This monster shames Jews everywhere, including me...

{!#%@}' spot on.

Like I said, anyone who defends this murderer is by definition reprehensible.


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