George Martin RIP

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:34 pm

Alabama Shakes today ;)
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:38 pm

I made the mistake of engaging "Gorgeous" in another subforum. I made a joke, she took me seriously.

I'm going to hide here for awhile.

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:04 pm

nmblum88 wrote:You can argue how and why the Shoah was inevitable in Christian Europe; that it happened is not really debatable.
And the size and lengths of the pipes that delivered the gas doesn't change that.

So I hope you will return, in this thread, to sharing what you love.


To be fair, whilst Christian antisemitism likely made a certain number of populations more amenable or indifferent to mass murder of Jews, the Nazi regime itself was harshly anti-Christian and its antisemitism originated not in religious anti-Judaism but to the racial antisemitism of the German Volkisch movement of the late 1800's. Jews who had renounced religion, and Jews who had converted to Christianity were sent to their deaths along with their former co-coreligionists.

To talk of the Holocaust as a Christian act places one firmly on the wrong side of history in a not dissimilar manner to the deniers. However, there can be no denying that many of those who assisted the pagan and/or atheist Nazis in their bloody deeds were motivated by old-style anti-Judaisim. The Croatian Ustasha, the Hungarian Arrow Cross Party, and the Vichy Regime are examples. These figures are a source of great discomfort to me, not only did they betray Christendom by collaborating with its most horrible foe, but they betrayed humanity itself by dabbling in the most heinous crime ever comitted. The Lutheran Church in Germany did not collaborate or assist Hitler so much as it feebly capitulated to him, a chicken-necked act.

However, many others, perhaps a majority, saw the monster for what it was, Dietrich Bonhoffer, the Kriesau circle, the innumerable rescuers of Jews in Poland and elsewhere, even Chiune Sugihara (who was a convert) were informed by their beliefs. Many were murdered by the Nazi regime.

To talk of Christianity and the Holocaust, one must not associate it with the perpetrators, but with the victims, the bystanders, the rescuers, and yes, unfortunately, the collaborators.

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:04 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Alabama Shakes today ;)


Lynard Skynard with a chick singer right?

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:07 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Alabama Shakes today ;)


Lynard Skynard with a chick singer right?


When I first heard Alabama Shakes I didn't know the singer was a woman.

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:08 pm

Today's a Rainbow kinda day for me.

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:14 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:To talk of Christianity and the Holocaust, one must not associate it with the perpetrators, but with the victims, the bystanders, the rescuers, and yes, unfortunately, the collaborators.

Well, with the perpetrators too . . . as you tick off some of them.
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:18 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Alabama Shakes today ;)


Lynard Skynard with a chick singer right?

Well, IMO more interesting than Lynyrd Skynyrd, and without the Confederate flags and the whole "Rebel" thing, but from, er, Alabama, yeah. Fronted by Brittany Howard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le-3MIBxQTw

But now I am onto Marianne Faithfull doing songs from Weimar cabaret and more . . . a bit eclectic today.
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby nmblum88 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:24 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
nmblum88 wrote:You can argue how and why the Shoah was inevitable in Christian Europe; that it happened is not really debatable.
And the size and lengths of the pipes that delivered the gas doesn't change that.

So I hope you will return, in this thread, to sharing what you love.


To be fair, whilst Christian antisemitism likely made a certain number of populations more amenable or indifferent to mass murder of Jews, the Nazi regime itself was harshly anti-Christian and its antisemitism originated not in religious anti-Judaism but to the racial antisemitism of the German Volkisch movement of the late 1800's. Jews who had renounced religion, and Jews who had converted to Christianity were sent to their deaths along with their former co-coreligionists.

To talk of the Holocaust as a Christian act places one firmly on the wrong side of history in a not dissimilar manner to the deniers. However, there can be no denying that many of those who assisted the pagan and/or atheist Nazis in their bloody deeds were motivated by old-style anti-Judaisim. The Croatian Ustasha, the Hungarian Arrow Cross Party, and the Vichy Regime are examples. These figures are a source of great discomfort to me, not only did they betray Christendom by collaborating with its most horrible foe, but they betrayed humanity itself by dabbling in the most heinous crime ever comitted. The Lutheran Church in Germany did not collaborate or assist Hitler so much as it feebly capitulated to him, a chicken-necked act.

However, many others, perhaps a majority, saw the monster for what it was, Dietrich Bonhoffer, the Kriesau circle, the innumerable rescuers of Jews in Poland and elsewhere, even Chiune Sugihara (who was a convert) were informed by their beliefs. Many were murdered by the Nazi regime.

To talk of Christianity and the Holocaust, one must not associate it with the perpetrators, but with the victims, the bystanders, the rescuers, and yes, unfortunately, the collaborators.




Whoa!! (emphasis mine).
And WHAT??? (As in WHAT does that MEAN?)
Stick to music.
Because there is no longer any wonder about how, after now years of babbling against the babbling of deniers, you have not been able to make a dent in their stubborn and irrational insistence.
You have your own problems with history...... but you are free to have them.
Based on your fantastical comments above, however, you may place me firmly on "the wrong side of history.."
You u might have some trouble placing me with the deniers, but do with it as you will: I'm out.

(I did take pleasure in the exchanges about music though. And the Shoah remains as it was, is, will forever be. Nothing can change that.)

NMB
Last edited by nmblum88 on Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:25 pm

Led Zeppelin III for me today.
I bought the boxed set about 10 years ago. I don't care how many more times Paige remasters the catalogue he's not getting any more of my money.

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:27 pm

nmblum88 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
nmblum88 wrote:You can argue how and why the Shoah was inevitable in Christian Europe; that it happened is not really debatable.
And the size and lengths of the pipes that delivered the gas doesn't change that.

So I hope you will return, in this thread, to sharing what you love.


To be fair, whilst Christian antisemitism likely made a certain number of populations more amenable or indifferent to mass murder of Jews, the Nazi regime itself was harshly anti-Christian and its antisemitism originated not in religious anti-Judaism but to the racial antisemitism of the German Volkisch movement of the late 1800's. Jews who had renounced religion, and Jews who had converted to Christianity were sent to their deaths along with their former co-coreligionists.

To talk of the Holocaust as a Christian act places one firmly on the wrong side of history in a not dissimilar manner to the deniers. However, there can be no denying that many of those who assisted the pagan and/or atheist Nazis in their bloody deeds were motivated by old-style anti-Judaisim. The Croatian Ustasha, the Hungarian Arrow Cross Party, and the Vichy Regime are examples. These figures are a source of great discomfort to me, not only did they betray Christendom by collaborating with its most horrible foe, but they betrayed humanity itself by dabbling in the most heinous crime ever comitted. The Lutheran Church in Germany did not collaborate or assist Hitler so much as it feebly capitulated to him, a chicken-necked act.

However, many others, perhaps a majority, saw the monster for what it was, Dietrich Bonhoffer, the Kriesau circle, the innumerable rescuers of Jews in Poland and elsewhere, even Chiune Sugihara (who was a convert) were informed by their beliefs. Many were murdered by the Nazi regime.

To talk of Christianity and the Holocaust, one must not associate it with the perpetrators, but with the victims, the bystanders, the rescuers, and yes, unfortunately, the collaborators.




Whoa!! (emphasis mine).
And WHAT??? (As in WHAT does that MEAN?)
Stick to music.
Because there is no longer any wonder about how, after now years of babbling against the babbling of deniers, you have not been able to make a dent in their stubborn and irrational insistence.
You have your own problems with history...... but you are free to have them.
Based on your fantastical comments above, however, you may place me firmly on "the wrong side of history.."
You u might have some trouble placing me with the deniers, but do with it as you will: I'm out.

(I did take pleasure in the exchanges about music though. And the Shoah remains as it was, is, will forever be. Nothing can change that.)

NMB



Wow, how did this go sideways?

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:57 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:To talk of Christianity and the Holocaust, one must not associate it with the perpetrators, but with the victims, the bystanders, the rescuers, and yes, unfortunately, the collaborators.

Well, with the perpetrators too . . . as you tick off some of them.


Individuals joining the SS had to renounce any ties to any church. If you are referring to todays like the Arjas Kommando and the Milice, I lump them under the category of collaborators.

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:58 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Led Zeppelin III for me today.
I bought the boxed set about 10 years ago. I don't care how many more times Paige remasters the catalogue he's not getting any more of my money.


"Celebration Day" presently surprised me.

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:02 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Wow, how did this go sideways?


My humble guess

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:To talk of Christianity and the Holocaust, one must not associate it with the perpetrators, but with the victims, the bystanders, the rescuers, and yes, unfortunately, the collaborators.

Well, with the perpetrators too . . . as you tick off some of them.

By forgetting that there's a past included in WWII's history?
Hi, Io the lurker.

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:16 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:To talk of Christianity and the Holocaust, one must not associate it with the perpetrators, but with the victims, the bystanders, the rescuers, and yes, unfortunately, the collaborators.

Well, with the perpetrators too . . . as you tick off some of them.


Individuals joining the SS had to renounce any ties to any church. If you are referring to todays like the Arjas Kommando and the Milice, I lump them under the category of collaborators.

Well, the record was very mixed, including institutional actors, as the record was mixed with many others, and to ignore this is to do injustice to the history. I was actually thinking of clerical fascists as in Slovakia and Croatia, of the Arrow Cross in Hungary, also the Italian fascists, but, sure the Milice, collaborators in the Baltics. It is more nuanced that you're making it: perpetrators were not all anti-Christian and indeed included people who considered themselves devout Christians.
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:17 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:To talk of Christianity and the Holocaust, one must not associate it with the perpetrators, but with the victims, the bystanders, the rescuers, and yes, unfortunately, the collaborators.

Well, with the perpetrators too . . . as you tick off some of them.


Individuals joining the SS had to renounce any ties to any church. If you are referring to todays like the Arjas Kommando and the Milice, I lump them under the category of collaborators.

Well, the record was very mixed, including institutional actors, as the record was mixed with many others, and to ignore this is to do injustice to the history. I was actually thinking of clerical fascists as in Slovakia and Croatia, of the Arrow Cross in Hungary, also the Italian fascists, but, sure the Milice, collaborators in the Baltics. It is more nuanced that you're making it: perpetrators were not all anti-Christian and indeed included people who considered themselves devout Christians.


I mentioned all of those, all of whom were influenced by Christian antisemitism. However none of the German perpetrators would have considered themselves Christian, it was seen as (in the words of Hitler) incompatible with Nazism. The motivations for Nazi antisemitism were racial rather than religious. Erik Koch was an exception, but the fact that he was considered to be very unique is telling.

You mentioned the Italian fascists - Mussolini was an atheist and his regime was considered to be deeply anti clerical. You have a much stronger point in regards to Slovakia, France, Hungary, and especially Croatia.

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:45 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:To talk of Christianity and the Holocaust, one must not associate it with the perpetrators, but with the victims, the bystanders, the rescuers, and yes, unfortunately, the collaborators.

Well, with the perpetrators too . . . as you tick off some of them.


Individuals joining the SS had to renounce any ties to any church. If you are referring to todays like the Arjas Kommando and the Milice, I lump them under the category of collaborators.

Well, the record was very mixed, including institutional actors, as the record was mixed with many others, and to ignore this is to do injustice to the history. I was actually thinking of clerical fascists as in Slovakia and Croatia, of the Arrow Cross in Hungary, also the Italian fascists, but, sure the Milice, collaborators in the Baltics. It is more nuanced that you're making it: perpetrators were not all anti-Christian and indeed included people who considered themselves devout Christians.


I mentioned all of those, all of whom were influenced by Christian antisemitism. However none of the German perpetrators would have considered themselves Christian,

But other perpetrators - and actually some German perpetrators truth be told - did consider themselves Christians, including people like this guy. To say that "one must not associate [Christianity] with the perpetrators" of the Holocaust is just wrong - but with the impact that it prevents a full reckoning with our past.

Jeff_36 wrote: it was seen as (in the words of Hitler) incompatible with Nazism.

So what? The perpetrators were not all "good Nazis." Or even Nazis. Or ideologically motivated.

Jeff_36 wrote:The motivations for Nazi antisemitism were racial rather than religious. Erik Koch was an exception, but the fact that he was considered to be very unique is telling.

The Holocaust is not reducible to "Nazi antisemitism," even among Germans. My understanding, and I think good history supports this, is that there were many motivations amongst perpetrators. The recent literature on perpetration, from Browning on, is rich in detail about this.

Jeff_36 wrote:You mentioned the Italian fascists - Mussolini was an atheist and his regime was considered to be deeply anti clerical. You have a much stronger point in regards to Slovakia, France, Hungary, and especially Croatia.

It is complex in Italy and among the Italian fascists. Again, Italian fascism isn't synonymous with Mussolini - how could it be? But even Mussolini in 1922 announced that the Catholic church would be privileged in fascist Italy. His education minister and fascist theorist Giovanni Gentile made religious (Catholic) instruction in the schools a part of the national rebirth promoted by fascism. Fascist laws in Italy protected Catholicism as a state religion, including such matters as prohibition of divorce for non-Catholics in parts of Italy and enactments against public contempt for Catholicism. One of the ways Jews were discriminated against in Italy was on the basis of their simply not being Catholics; e.g., Jewish communities had to deal with standard, "Catholicized" textbooks introduced by Gentile's ministry. In 1934, Jews fell afoul of Mussolini's requirement that prefects report local officials who were not Catholic. The policy of the state was "reconciliation" with Catholicism and controls for other religions. (see Sarfatti, The Jews in Mussolini's Italy, pp 44-47, 57, 65, 72; I'd also suggest a quick scan of the Wikipedia biography of Mussolini to correct a one-sided view like the one you're stating - there is a bit of Realpolitik at work here, to be sure, with Mussolini deciding in favor of a strong relationship with the Church and Catholicism so as not to force Italians to divide loyalties)
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:41 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:To talk of Christianity and the Holocaust, one must not associate it with the perpetrators, but with the victims, the bystanders, the rescuers, and yes, unfortunately, the collaborators.

Well, with the perpetrators too . . . as you tick off some of them.


Individuals joining the SS had to renounce any ties to any church. If you are referring to todays like the Arjas Kommando and the Milice, I lump them under the category of collaborators.

Well, the record was very mixed, including institutional actors, as the record was mixed with many others, and to ignore this is to do injustice to the history. I was actually thinking of clerical fascists as in Slovakia and Croatia, of the Arrow Cross in Hungary, also the Italian fascists, but, sure the Milice, collaborators in the Baltics. It is more nuanced that you're making it: perpetrators were not all anti-Christian and indeed included people who considered themselves devout Christians.


I mentioned all of those, all of whom were influenced by Christian antisemitism. However none of the German perpetrators would have considered themselves Christian,

But other perpetrators - and actually some German perpetrators truth be told - did consider themselves Christians, including people like this guy. To say that "one must not associate [Christianity] with the perpetrators" of the Holocaust is just wrong - but with the impact that it prevents a full reckoning with our past.


When I said "perpetrators" I had German Eisatzgruppen and camp personal in mind, as well as the top leadership of the Nazi party. I should have said "core perpetrators".

I alluded to the vile bastard Filipovic in an earlier post when I made reference to the Croatian Ustasha. I consider actors such as the Ustasha, the Arrow Cross, and Vichy as collaborators, local actors that assisted the Nazi state. I stand by my insistence that once cannot view the Nazi party, the Nazi state, and the SS in a Christian context. Himmler's directives say enough. I should have narrowed the scope of my initial statement, and replaced the term Holocaust with Final Solution.

It is complex in Italy and among the Italian fascists. Again, Italian fascism isn't synonymous with Mussolini - how could it be? But even Mussolini in 1922 announced that the Catholic church would be privileged in fascist Italy. His education minister and fascist theorist Giovanni Gentile made religious (Catholic) instruction in the schools a part of the national rebirth promoted by fascism. Fascist laws in Italy protected Catholicism as a state religion, including such matters as prohibition of divorce for non-Catholics in parts of Italy and enactments against public contempt for Catholicism.


This was considered at the time to be a matter of appeasement and, as you pointed out, realpolitik. Mussolini payed lip service to the monarchists and the Church through these and other laws and directives. However, his personal opinions are well documented and established beyond question.

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:22 am

Jeff_36 wrote:When I said "perpetrators" I had German Eisatzgruppen and camp personal in mind, as well as the top leadership of the Nazi party. I should have said "core perpetrators".

No True Scotsman.

Jeff_36 wrote:I alluded to the vile bastard Filipovic in an earlier post when I made reference to the Croatian Ustasha. I consider actors such as the Ustasha, the Arrow Cross, and Vichy as collaborators, local actors that assisted the Nazi state. I stand by my insistence that once cannot view the Nazi party, the Nazi state, and the SS in a Christian context. Himmler's directives say enough. I should have narrowed the scope of my initial statement, and replaced the term Holocaust with Final Solution.

For starters, that is not what you wrote (which was "To talk of Christianity and the Holocaust, one must not associate it with the perpetrators"), which is what I replied to: changing the term to FS doesn't really help - or do we want to exclude the Trawnikis? Officers and men of the Police Battalions?

You are now saying something different from what you started out with and redefining terms to make the discussion meaningless.

Jeff_36 wrote:This was considered at the time to be a matter of appeasement and, as you pointed out, realpolitik.

In part, but not only. As I explained. But either way, Italian fascists followed a policy of promotion of Catholicism; you can't just draw a line around this because you want to.

Jeff_36 wrote: his personal opinions are well documented and established beyond question.

We've read different stuff, apparently, but in a way it is irrelevant. I wrote about Italian fascism, not Mussolini the individual.
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:47 pm

and btw, according to Maryzilla, who talks crap, "For the most part, [we] guys don't correct each other" or whatever. But, lookie here, I correct Jeff_36, Jeff_36 corrects me, and so and on, back and forth. How did that happen, when we don't correct each other?
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:24 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:and btw, according to Maryzilla, who talks crap, "For the most part, [we] guys don't correct each other" or whatever. But, lookie here, I correct Jeff_36, Jeff_36 corrects me, and so and on, back and forth. How did that happen, when we don't correct each other?


Mary can't differentiate between her ass and a hole in the ground. The difference between her and other deniers is that they actually believe what they write and she clearly does not.

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Balsamo » Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:11 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:and btw, according to Maryzilla, who talks crap, "For the most part, [we] guys don't correct each other" or whatever. But, lookie here, I correct Jeff_36, Jeff_36 corrects me, and so and on, back and forth. How did that happen, when we don't correct each other?
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:and btw, according to Maryzilla, who talks crap, "For the most part, [we] guys don't correct each other" or whatever. But, lookie here, I correct Jeff_36, Jeff_36 corrects me, and so and on, back and forth. How did that happen, when we don't correct each other?


Mary can't differentiate between her ass and a hole in the ground. The difference between her and other deniers is that they actually believe what they write and she clearly does not.
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:To talk of Christianity and the Holocaust, one must not associate it with the perpetrators, but with the victims, the bystanders, the rescuers, and yes, unfortunately, the collaborators.

Well, with the perpetrators too . . . as you tick off some of them.


Individuals joining the SS had to renounce any ties to any church. If you are referring to todays like the Arjas Kommando and the Milice, I lump them under the category of collaborators.

Well, the record was very mixed, including institutional actors, as the record was mixed with many others, and to ignore this is to do injustice to the history. I was actually thinking of clerical fascists as in Slovakia and Croatia, of the Arrow Cross in Hungary, also the Italian fascists, but, sure the Milice, collaborators in the Baltics. It is more nuanced that you're making it: perpetrators were not all anti-Christian and indeed included people who considered themselves devout Christians.


I mentioned all of those, all of whom were influenced by Christian antisemitism. However none of the German perpetrators would have considered themselves Christian,

But other perpetrators - and actually some German perpetrators truth be told - did consider themselves Christians, including people like this guy. To say that "one must not associate [Christianity] with the perpetrators" of the Holocaust is just wrong - but with the impact that it prevents a full reckoning with our past.


When I said "perpetrators" I had German Eisatzgruppen and camp personal in mind, as well as the top leadership of the Nazi party. I should have said "core perpetrators".

I alluded to the vile bastard Filipovic in an earlier post when I made reference to the Croatian Ustasha. I consider actors such as the Ustasha, the Arrow Cross, and Vichy as collaborators, local actors that assisted the Nazi state. I stand by my insistence that once cannot view the Nazi party, the Nazi state, and the SS in a Christian context. Himmler's directives say enough. I should have narrowed the scope of my initial statement, and replaced the term Holocaust with Final Solution.

It is complex in Italy and among the Italian fascists. Again, Italian fascism isn't synonymous with Mussolini - how could it be? But even Mussolini in 1922 announced that the Catholic church would be privileged in fascist Italy. His education minister and fascist theorist Giovanni Gentile made religious (Catholic) instruction in the schools a part of the national rebirth promoted by fascism. Fascist laws in Italy protected Catholicism as a state religion, including such matters as prohibition of divorce for non-Catholics in parts of Italy and enactments against public contempt for Catholicism.


This was considered at the time to be a matter of appeasement and, as you pointed out, realpolitik. Mussolini payed lip service to the monarchists and the Church through these and other laws and directives. However, his personal opinions are well documented and established beyond question.



WHAT ??? GEORGE MARTIN DIED ????

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:03 am

Balsamo wrote:WHAT ??? GEORGE MARTIN DIED ????

You'd think there'd be a thread dedicated to that, no?
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:52 pm

Another unpleasant reminder of the the involvement of Christians with perpetrators is the role of Catholic priests in the secret networks (e.g., Opera San Raffaele) that helped Nazis, including Eichmann and Walter Rauff (who was hidden in monasteries and even the Vatican), escape justice after the war.
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:57 am

Chuck Berry passed away.

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:04 am


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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Darren Wilshak » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:15 pm


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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Darren Wilshak » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:24 pm

Wouldn't have been this without that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlJclT1lMBk

Berkerley 30th May 1970.

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:11 pm

Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:00 pm

Hehehe, great clips, although it seems he wasn't such a fun of the punks :)
- Chuck Berry (RIP) Reviews Punk Songs by The Ramones, Sex Pistols, The Clash, Talking Heads & More (1980)
http://www.openculture.com/2017/03/chuc ... songs.html

He said on the Ramones and 'Sheena is a Punk Rocker':
'A good little jump number. These guys remind me of myself when I first started, I only knew three chords too.'

But ...

... two concerts held at the Fox Theatre in St. Louis to celebrate Chuck Berry’s 60th birthday.
Berry plays the hits, backed by an all-star band of legendary bluesmen, R&B singers, and rock guitarists, assembled and directed by president of the Chuck Berry fan club, Keith Richards: There’s Bobby Keys and Chuck Leavell, Robert Cray and Eric Clapton, Etta James and Linda Ronstadt.
And that’s not to mention the talking head appearances from people like Bo Diddley, Jerry Lee Lewis, Roy Orbison, Little Richard, and Bruce Springsteen.

http://www.openculture.com/2013/01/chuc ... _1987.html
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html

XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:06 pm

But the punks liked him :)
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:14 am

Punk rockers also liked the original Devo. Devo also did a "Johnny B Good" song in 1978, except Johnny gets too enthusiastic when he picks up his guitar and drives head on into a semi-trailer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dftEL1PhFjE

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:32 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Punk rockers also liked the original Devo. Devo also did a "Johnny B Good" song in 1978, except Johnny gets too enthusiastic when he picks up his guitar and drives head on into a semi-trailer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dftEL1PhFjE


Still my favorite Devo song:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jadvt7CbH1o

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:27 am

A perfect tune by Devo
Nazism conspired to create a sense of festival time. . . . Tragically for humanity, the party generating it was the type not associated with the coloured costumes of the Brazilian Carnival, but with the brown-shirted thuggery of the NSDAP. The contrast between the dance and the march, between the samba and the strains of the Horst Wessel Lied, points to the gulf separating a life-asserting community from a community which exists only by creating a demonized other. - RG '97

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:15 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:A perfect tune by Devo


My favorite Devo song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8UcpmUQkNU

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:37 pm

Mark Mothersbaugh, the lead singer of Devo, moved onto production soundtracks for TV and movies, encompassing children's, popular and art-house productions. He obviously has a lot of talent and yet has no problem making fun of himself. I think that earns respect.

I don't know why Devo still tours today. I don't think it is for the money. It might be one of those rare occasions where the band likes playing, or he is helping other members of the band (without composition royalty flows) earn some extra money.

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:55 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:Mark Mothersbaugh, the lead singer of Devo, moved onto production soundtracks for TV and movies, encompassing children's, popular and art-house productions. He obviously has a lot of talent and yet has no problem making fun of himself. I think that earns respect.

I don't know why Devo still tours today. I don't think it is for the money. It might be one of those rare occasions where the band likes playing, or he is helping other members of the band (without composition royalty flows) earn some extra money.


He used to draw things on a show called Yo Gabba Gabba, a show my kids watched when they were young:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Apj7-xeytFU

Just as an aside, I always thought kid's shows were written, produced, directed and starred people that were all on acid.

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:23 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote: Just as an aside, I always thought kid's shows were written, produced, directed and starred people that were all on acid.
That would be the 1970's Australian Children's show "The Aunty Jack Show" hosted by a female impersonator in gold boxing gloves, who threatened to pull the arms of children if they did not celebrate cultural events in Wollongong (a small town with a large iron smelter).

I'm still not sure what the show was actually about, but I always watched it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs9ma5oHVbE

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:41 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote: Just as an aside, I always thought kid's shows were written, produced, directed and starred people that were all on acid.
That would be the 1970's Australian Children's show "The Aunty Jack Show" hosted by a female impersonator in gold boxing gloves, who threatened to pull the arms of children if they did not celebrate cultural events in Wollongong (a small town with a large iron smelter).

I'm still not sure what the show was actually about, but I always watched it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs9ma5oHVbE


That was.....so......awesome.

I have to find an episode to watch.

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Re: George Martin RIP

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:44 pm



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